Not a member. Club Lexus forum contain too much BS polls posted by either kids or people got nothing else to do with their lives. Who care about these useless polls?
How about a slightly contradictory report from someone that actually has both a 335i and IS350 in the extended family?
I had an opportunity last weekend to take advantage of the 60+ degree weather in the Pittsburgh area to "borrow" an unused runway for some test drives of my 911 Turbo. My nephew with a 335i and his fiance with an IS350 came along.
Needless to say, the 2007 911 Turbo is a bit quicker than both of those, easily hitting 150+/- mph within a 1/2 mile, and I wasn't pushing it. But between the IS350 and 335i, it was absolutely no contest, to such an extent it surprised me. My nephew was easily 150+ feet ahead of the IS at (approximately) 1/4 mile and 250+ feet ahead by my imposed speed limit of 125. When they switched cars, my nephew's fiance virtually duplicated the feat, with me in the 335 with her, watching her shifts. Not bad for a "girl" that's never taken a professional driving course.
The last thing I would ever advise anyone to do is buy a car for it's drag racing ability. We'd all be in souped up 1970's Buicks. However, considering that the 335i has a real back seat and nearly as many techno gadgets, I guess the decision comes down to whether you want the "looks" of the IS350 over the performance and functionality of the 335i. But believe me from real world experience, the 335i, at least in 6 speed form, is significantly more powerful and quicker than the IS350. Not to mention, more fuel efficient.
P.S. Do not try to duplicate the above at home. As a part owner, I have access to a private runway that is 6,000 feet long and 100 feet wide, with absolutely nothing to run into.
"P.S. Do not try to duplicate the above at home. As a part owner, I have access to a private runway that is 6,000 feet long and 100 feet wide, with absolutely nothing to run into."
Geez, that's a big runway. I did all of my basic training on a runway that was 2,942' x 40', with an 840' displaced threshold no less. The first time I landed on anything larger (3,600' x 60') I thought the runway looked so wide that I could land sideways. On your 6,000' x 100' strip I'd probably get lost. ;-)
"All my initial flight training was at a stagefield using an 8' by 8' painted square."
Hehe, I'm not a rotary wing jock, in fact the last time I rode in one of those (a Chinook) was when a screaming Gunny from Uncle Sam's Misguided Children caused me to jump out of the back. :-/
I was a happy 2000 BMW 323i owner. 7 yrs old, 54 thous. mi., no problems. THEN I read on a BMW forum the alarming number of catastrophic transmission failures occurring on the automatics for the '00-'02 models (also the govt. recall website). I then did some research. The reverse gear goes out with no warning. No dealer or trans shop will fix the trans. These failures start at around 40,000 mi. SOLUTION: Replace the automatic transmission. COST: $5,000 IF you can find the transmission. Often you have to find one in a junk yard. This failure happens so often there is a shortage of transmissions. So your car sits at the dealer for weeks, maybe months waiting for the $5K reconditioned trans to show up. How long will the new one last? BMW will not back up this trans, does not even acknowledge there is a problem. Basically stonewalling the situation. My car is fine now...so what do I do? Go buy another BMW? (I do love the way they drive). Wait for the trans to go out? Well, I have a very bad taste in my mouth about this. This is why I'm interested in selling my BMW and buying a IS250. I don't even want to try to sell my car to an individual because I know what will happen at some point in the near future (ruin the guy or gal financially) and the guilt will bother me. So, I probably will sell it at CarMax for $3K less than it's worth (around $13K now) and go on. So much for the Ultimate Driving Machine.
I find myself wondering how difficult it is to retrofit early E46 323i models with a manual transmission. Nah, probably not worth it.
I also find myself wondering who is really to blame for these failures (yeah, yeah, yeah. I know BMW put the transmission in their car so the buck should ultimately stop with them). Why would I wonder such a thing? If I recall correctly, either ZF or a French subsidiary of GM was building BMWs automatic 3-Series transmissions back in 1999 and 2000. Could it be that BMW is stalling so that they can get some concessions from the manufacturer?
Here is how I would play this. You do not have a problem now and you intend to loose 3K in a sale. You could keep the car and a problem might never devlop.
My uncle owned an automatic transmission shop in Brooklyn, NY for over 40 years. The trannys wear and are very intricate. He serviced ALL autos.
(The tranny fluid is the key so maintain this religiously. I'll gamble you never have a problem.
Thanks guys, for the replies about my 323i transmission. Shipo, you are quite correct about the history of that GM transmission. It's BMW's responsibility. Today I drove a IS250 for the 1st time at the local dealer. Very impressed!! My son has a '06 BMW 325i, manual shift, sport suspension and I can say his car's fit and finish, quality of materials, workmanship is at a higher level than the Lexus. In some ways it may even drive better. This is probably a personal opinion issue. Would I have another BMW? Not on your life! The IS250 with stock suspension handles great with minimal roll, excellent ride vs handling compromise. Terrific control around fast sweepers. Incredibly smooth engine with more than adequate power from the 204HP V6. If I do have a gripe, it is that the transmission is TOO smooth..you never know what gear it's in. I like to have some type of involvement when the car shifts gears (bad knee, can't buy a manual shift). It's almost as if the trans is a CVT. The paddles are useless..might as well remove them. The ultimate auto in this respect is the Audi A3 with DSG trans. Those paddles really work, and instantaneously (I test drove it last week). The A3 w/ s-line suspension is a great car but is a little too hard edged for me..similar to a Mini Cooper smoothed out somewhat. If the IS250 had DSG (which I think it will someday) it would truly be an incredible car. My biggest concern about the IS250 was the back seat leg room. After adjusting the front seats the way my wife and I use them on my BMW, the rear leg room is certainly adequate...about as good as my 2000 BMW (I'm 5'11). This Lexus is not meant to take 4 adults of normal size on a 4 hr road trip (which is fine with me..let the other couple take their own car). I was so relieved there is enough room back there. The deciding factor for me of the IS250 over all other competitors is the Lexus long-term reliability. This is where Lexus stands out from the field. I am retired and I'd like to keep the car 10 yrs. I only drive 8 or 9 000 miles a year with my car and I feel the BMW or Audi with have major cost issues after a few years. I'm not even planning to buy an extended warranty on the Lexus (after 7 yrs I'll only have 56,000 mi. est.) Good luck guys on your IS250 - one of the best cars for the money out there.
I understand completely, once burned (or at least potentially burned in this case) and all of that...
A couple of questions: 1) Did you have the chance to drive the A3 without the S-Line package? I've driven both and the base car is much softer than the S-Line. 2) Are you sure about the back seat room on the IS? I'm only 5'8" and with the driver's seat set for me, my (then) 11 year old son couldn't fit in the back seat behind me. The flip side was that in the A3 set up the same way, not only could he fit back there, so could I. 3) Other than your pending transmission issue, do you have any other problems with your 323i? I ask because given your annual mileage, wouldn't it just be cheaper to buy a new tranny for it (if/when it fails) and keep on driving it?
Shipo, I didn't get a chance to drive the A3 without the S-Line package. I thought it might lean too much in the curves as some have reported. The s-line may not be as much of a problem as I have stated since the car I test drove had 38 psi on all four tires. If it were reduced to say, 33-34 psi it may have ridden significantly better. In the "fun-to-drive" quotient, the A3 may be at the top of the pack. The car is a blast to drive - one of the most responsive cars I've ever driven. I think the size and smoothness (and great ride AND handling of the IS250) have me leaning toward the IS over the A3. I hate to say it but maybe my age is showing. If I were 25 to low 40's I'd probably pick the A3 w/ s-line. Cost is not a factor for me. You may be correct about the rear legroom on the A3. If I adjusted it correctly it may have as much or more than the IS250. The reason I'm satisfied with the rear legroom of the IS250 is probably the way I adjusted the front seats to fit me. I'm 5'11", and I raised the front seat to its highest position possible (this is important), I even tilted the back seat somewhat more than the average driver (bad back so I need to recline it more than normal) but it still provided me with enough room in the back seat without even having to have my knees positioned on either side of the front seat back. In the driver's seat I had about 1" from my knees to the dash. I need my twin, 7 yr old grandsons to fit back there and I think up to the age of 15 or so, they'll fit fine. I even feel adult men could fit there, but not for a long drive. So, in conclusion, the rear leg room is adequate, but barely so. About the BMW transmission issue: You brought up a good point. My 323i is in mint condition with only 54K miles; however, this transmission problem occurs without warning and I could be stranded out of town on a trip, without any reassurance that I could find a replacement trans within weeks of a breakdown. If I knew the percent of these cars failing I would have a better feel about keeping or selling it. If it were 1 out of 20 failing (5%), I'd definitely keep it. If it were 30% failing then that is too much of a risk for me (my wife would kill me if it failed on a trip since she's fully aware of the problem). Sure, going by cost alone, I'd be much better off keeping the car until the trans fails and somehow fix it when it occurs (how long would the reconditioned trans last though?) And how long would I have to wait to get it repaired since there is apparently a shortage of available tranmissions. Thanks for your comments.
It is a Toyota with an L. But to say it is without soul simply ignores its attributes. How many V6 cars, German or Japanese, can smoke a 5.7 liter Pontiac GTO in the quarter mile, average 20+ mpg at the track, and provide a generally fun, balanced ride through the curves? The M3 can, but no other 3-series approaches the IS350s overall balance.
"How many V6 cars, German or Japanese, can smoke a 5.7 liter Pontiac GTO in the quarter mile, average 20+ mpg at the track, and provide a generally fun, balanced ride through the curves? The M3 can, but no other 3-series approaches the IS350s overall balance."
You are either kidding, drunk or both, right? :P
Taking a slushbox to the track? Calling it fun and balanced in the curves? I'll concede that the Lexus IS is a very worthy entry level luxury car. It isn't in the same solar system as a 335i 6-speed or even, for that matter, a 328i, on the sport/performance front. Ditto for the GS vs. the 550i.
Here's my test drive experience. My friend was planning to buy an entry lux sedan and wanted to check out the Lexus IS and the BMW 3 series. He asked me to go along with him and check 'em out.
I drove the Lexus IS 250 next. This is my first time driving anything more expensive than a Corolla. The IS250 is a beautiful car. Everything on the inside was beautiful quality. The leather, the plastics, the wood, metal everything felt great to touch and looked beautiful. It seemed to be chock-full of gadgets too: the helpful rear camera that comes on on the nav screen when you reverse, the touch screen nav system that seems easy to use, bluetooth, etc. It certainly had adequate power. The ride was harsh, but not uncomfortable. I didn't push the car too hard on the test drive, but the IS250 felt very comfortable with accelerating out of turns. There was enough passing power on the freeway. The brakes were very powerful. It was a beautiful machine inside and out. It felt and looked like a 35k+ car inside and out, and even had the tech toys to prove it. Even the salespperson was super polite, super helpful in explaining everything on the car. I really liked the car.
Then I went over to the BMW dealership. The sales people were courteous, but not overly friendly. They didn't really try to sell the car - the guy simply said - "Okay, here's the 328i sedan. I'll just sit in the back, let me know if you have questions." The car looks nice, but in my opinion, the Lexus is slightly better looking. Inside, it feels cold and very spartan. The interior is functional and nice but certainly not "luxurious" looking. I was beginning to feel a little let down. The famed BMW didn't seem to be even remotely comparable. And then, I started the car and began to drive.
It took me all of 10 seconds before I actually started to giggle! This car is ridiculously fun to drive! The steering, chassis, and the brakes are magical. The chassis lets you know everything about the road without ever being uncomfortable. It is firm, but never harsh. The steering somehow felt "right". It's hard to explain, but the Lexus didn't draw you in like the BMW did. Every part of the car seems to know exactly what you want - the engine responds beautifully to your foot with linear acceleration. The car invites you to drive faster and is remarkably composed no matter what you do! By the end of my 15 minute drive, I was in love. I'd read about "telepathic steering" and "sublime handling" in magazines, but was very skeptical. This car is all of that and more.
Lexus probably offers more value for money. The Lexus is certainly a more refined, elegant, polished, and beautiful machine. But it is a machine. The BMW, magically, has soul! To me, there is no comparison.
I've since driven the 335i, and it is a bit more fun that the 328i. On regular streets - I don't think I'd want to pay the extra 6-7K for the 335. I also drove the Mercedes C350 which was a little more fun than the IS250, less gadgety, and equally well finished. But that too was not as fun as the BMW. I'm looking forward to driving the G35 to see if it is as much fun.
I had the BMW 325 at one point and just sold my Mercedes CLK 320 and have had the Lexus IS 250 for a week. I am past the age where a car needs to be fun for me to drive - I want style - I want a beautiful car inside and out - I want to feel comfortable when I drive the car - and most of all I want decent value since every car begins to depreciate once you drive it home from the showroom. I'm not a kid anymore - I don't care about 0-60 in 6 seconds or less (if I did I would have gotten the IS 350) - bottom line: the IS 250 is the best of the three cars I have had if you consider the ride - the style and the comfort. Just my opinion but if you are over 40 then it's the IS 250 - if you're a kid and haven't matured yet then get your fun in the 328 or 335 - but when you become an adult and grow up you'll see the difference. Oh yeah, I got my IS 250 fully equipped for $8000 less than what a comparable 328 would have cost me!!!
I'm the exact opposite. I want my car to be fun and have style at the same time. I care about 0-60 and tight handling. I don't care about the radio. I will never outgrow having a car that puts a smile on my face, because I love to drive and love to drive a car that loves to be driven. BMWs make me smile and smiling at any age is great. Just as an FYI, I am over 30.
I had a brief look at the IS, but I actually need to transport adults in the back seat from time to time. Also, I find a fold-down rear seat very helpful.
The IS driving dynamics leave something to be desired, something supplied by the BMW. I enjoy driving as well, which, from from your point of view, renders me immature.
Thanks for the incredibly condecending post, I really appreciated hearing from such an expert such as yourself as what I'm supposed to be driving since I'm over 40. Later this spring I'm going to be 50, not dead, that said after a drive in the IS250 I quickly determined it was a dog with fleas. Sorry, I like driving too to drive an old geezer's car like that thing.
BTW, don't you think your boast of saving $8,000 over a "comparable" 328i is a bit disingenious? I just configured the two as I would buy them and came out to an honest difference of $5,000, not at all too much of a premium for a far superior car in pretty much every aspect. Then again, I wouldn't have to pay anywhere near $5,000 extra for a "comparable" 328i. Why? Well, the family wants another vacation in Europe, and instead of renting a car for two weeks, I'd simply do the ED thing again. Hmmm, let's see, save $5,000 off of MSRP and save another $1,500-$2,000 by not having to rent a car in Europe. The 328i is the far better deal.
"I am past the age where a car needs to be fun..."
I feel for you Jerry - you should have bought a Camry. I'm over 40 and on a quest to make my car faster and less comfortable.
By the way, I built a "fully equipped" IS250 (auto, luxury plus, nav/ML stereo) and came up with an MSRP of $42,117 (invoice $36,652).
A fully equipped 328i (premium, nav, logic 7 stereo, xenons, park distance, comfort access, heated seats) came out to an MSRP of $42,830 (invoice $39,540).
Sorry to doubt you, but it is absolutely impossible for a "fully equipped" IS250 to cost $8,000 less than a 328i.
I am mid-40's and just ordered my 328i 6MT with sport package (would have gone with 335i had my wallet agreed). I have been checking my production status daily -- it is in the paint shop now . I can't wait for her to arrive. Guess I am young at heart . I tested them all. No luxury compared to the sheer joy of driving the 3-series. BTW, I did not pay $8,000 more than a comparable-equipped IS250, far less than that. Wait, actually, there is no comparable-equipped IS250 because no manual transmission is offered. :P
I concede that the 335 handles better than the IS350. But the overall package that the IS350 offers is superior to any 3 series BMW except for the M3. The IS350 compensates for lesser handling with superior speed.
Here's reality for you - I've taken my IS350 to the quarter mile track and ran a 13.8 and smoked a new Pontiac GTO. I ran a 13.8 consistently over several runs. On that tank I averaged over 20 mpg.
I've driven my IS350 on one of the most fun and challenging public roads in the country (touge style canyon running) and it performed well.
And I'm taking it to a performance driving school on a formula style track in March. I'm confident enough in the IS350 to shell out good money for a performance driving school using my car, not a rental or loaner.
The IS350 can use a few improvements, which Toyota surely will provide in coming years. As it stands today, I would go head to head with your 3 series in my IS350. If you're ever in Central Texas, let me know. Let's see if you're willing to take your car to its limits.
13.8 seconds in the 1/4 mile is quite a good performance for a non-professional driver, congrats! Car and Driver magazine tested the IS350 and got 13.7 in the 1/4 mile and 5.1 seconds 0-60.
BTW, C&D tested the 335i last November and got 13.6 in the 1/4 mile and 4.9 seconds 0-60.
Yes, the IS350 is a very quick sedan, but you should be careful to check the chrome digits glued to the trunk lid before you challenge a 3-series BMW!
Look guys I have nothing against the BMW since I had one and liked it a lot - it's just that I have outgrown the need to do 0-60 in six seconds - and with my BMW I got tired of replacing the brakes every two years - I got tired of the hard leather and the uncomfortable drivers seat. There's no argument here- you guys can enjoy your BMW and I'll smile when I get into my Lexus - that's all there is to it.
Oh to the guy above who believes the cars are comparably priced - I got my IS 250 for $32,000 - and it would have cost me close to $40,000 for a comparably equipped 328!
Actually, I apologize: my car was not $8,000 less than a comparably priced 328 - I just priced it out with the same equipment I got and it turned out to be $9,000!
I was going to say that I am young at heart as well (However, about 15 years older than you) I am retired - just bought a home near the beach (Central Ca. Coast) and run 20 miles weekly. Have lived all over the world - and enjoy the finer things in life - and that includes my IS 250!
No disrespect intended. I have nothing against IS250, either, but simply took an exception on on your drawing the line at 40 years of age for car choices and the kid/immature remarks on 3-series buyers in general.
As to the price difference, I suspect that you are comparing the purchase price of your IS250 with the MSRP of a "comparable equipped" 328i. What is the MSRP of your IS250? Also, I guess you paid cash for the car, so any price difference would translate into actual saving for you. However, for people who lease, BMW, with its low rates and high residuals, offers much better "value" than other contenders in this segment, IMHO. The lease payment on my close-to-$40k-MSRP 328i will be less than $460 with tax included and no money down. Taking into consideration the free (or "prepaid", as some people like to call it) maintenance, I believe its monthly cost of ownership will be lower than that of IS250, G35, or TL -- on a lease basis.
You apparently have lived a fine and healthy life, and enjoyed BMW once. I might choose my car differently 15 years from now. Congrats on your new home and new car. Enjoy them!
If I'm not mistaken, the IS 250 is the one that does offer the manual. That said, I'm not sure how long it would take to actually get one, given how most dealerships spec their cars.
Not offering the manual on the 350 is what convinces many that, as usual, Lexus is more interested in the L than the P.
You are right. I stand corrected. When I priced IS250 in carsdirect.com, there was only one style available -- automatic. It appears that, once chosen this only style, you can unselect the automatic transmission in configuration page.
If you are referring to the joy of driving the 3-series, I am sure I will still feel the same 5 years from now. If you are referring to maintenance, my lease term is 3 years so it will all be covered.
There was an interesting post by spiritinthesky regarding non-professional driving of the 350, 335i and G35, in one of the forums. You might want to search for that post, his take....the IS comes in last in terms of performance. So before you start bragging about how fast the IS 350 is, there are two cars that are faster.
Thank you for the kind message - no disrespect for either you or me or our cars - that's why at different points in one's life you appreciate different things. Music is a good example and various other things. Also, you're right: I did pay cash for my car - which listed at $37,800 - I figure the same comparably equipped 328 would have cost me $41,000 (and I paid $32,000 for mine). As far as residual value: I have never leased but I was swayed by Kipplingers Magazine which stated that an IS 250 would be worth 43% after five years while a 328 would be worth 42%!
So, MSRP to MSRP, the price difference between IS250 and 328i is in the $4k to 5k range, as Shipo estimated. At $5,800 off sticker, you got a fantastic deal for the IS250. One can get similar discount on 3-series when doing ED, plus the saving of car rental in Europe trip. At the end, car purchase is a very personal decision. Everyone will pick what best suits his/her particular needs and/or preference.
Here is another set of figures for your reference. For 36 mo/15k miles lease program, BMW 328i has a money factor of .00155 ((3.72%) and a residual of 61%, whereas Lexus IS250 has a money factor of .00255 (6.12%) and residual at 57%. This is why BMW is a better value when leasing for 2-3 years.
Leasing for terms longer than 3 years would not make financial sense in most cases, because the money factor jumps (sometimes double) and the residual drops like a rock. I would purchase the car if I plan to keep it for 3+ years. But then, that is another analysis.
Bottom Line is that we're both happy with our deals! I paid cash for IS 250 because I sold my 2004 CLK 320 to a neighbor of mine who gave me $40,000 for it. That gave me enough left over to put about $5,000 towards the SUV my wife wants to get - in that respect one of the cars we are considering is the BMW X3 - also the Lexus RX 350 - so you see I still believe in BMW.
there are folks who will rationalize how the 3 series is superior until the end of time but the facts will remain the same. the lexus will definitely keep you out of the repair shop much less than a bmw 3, it will blow you away with the best air conditioner you will ever find in any car, it will blow you away with its kick a$& stereo system on your drive to work."
Just what I always wanted in my sport sedan. A kicka$$ stereo & A/C. They've always been #1 & 2 on my list. I guess this explains why the Lexus crowd can't understand BMW folks.
FYI, I don't drive a 330i anymore. Pat deleted my post regarding that.
funny how i mentioned in this same post that the IS350 must be nearly the ultimate driving machine since it can absolutely dust any 330i and nearly every bmw ever made. funny how i mentioned that hands down it has a vastly superior interior and price tag and only the air con and stereo statement gets cracked on.
that's disappointing and desperate at the same time. i would also get rid of my old 330i too when i came to the realization that it costs nearly 45K and is a huge rip-off.
I had a Lexus IS 300 and my cousin had an 328 and my Lexus definitely held up much better over time, despite far more aggresive driving on my part.
His 328 had numerous problems, perhaps the most embarasing failure being a water pump failure, which required me to help him out.
My Lexus had never failed me mechanically despite very aggresive and constant hard driving. The car was in abysmal cosmetic condition I only got a $5,000 trade in value but the car was mechanically sound at 130K miles and probably had at least 70k-100k miles of service life. His bmw according to him was literally falling apart at 118K.
If you like driving fast I think it means driving hard and there is nothing more important than having a car that can be abused day and day out, this is where Lexus and Toyota shine. If you want to just transportation just buy a Prius.
Sure the BMW'r may be a great handling and fast car but most modern cars are so fast that most people will never even approach a car's limit in even something so humble as an ES 350. I've driven one too and in the right hands it can be very quick and fast around high speed corners, although the "feel" may be disagreeable to some.
The handling limits of modern cars are just too high to be a true issue for most drivers on public roads,perhaps at a race track but certainly not on our streets and highways. So reliability in my opinion should be key criteria.
FYI: you're replying to a message that's over a year old.
Don't know about the current generation (E90) 3-series, but the previous generation (the E46) has been a pretty reliable car. My 330i, purchased new in 2001, has been out of warranty for almost 2 years & has only in the shop once. It helps that when I ordered the car, I stacked the deck in my favor by avoiding the navigation system -- the Japanese are better at that stuff than the Germans -- & the automatic transmission. Since I prefer a stick, that wasn't a hardship.
I respect Toyota/Lexus. My wife so liked her '99 ES 300 that she replaced it a few months ago with an '07 ES 350. It's just that they aren't a whole lot of fun to drive. I've driven the IS 350. It's a well-made, comfortable car. But the best thing that you can say about the driving experience is that it's pleasant. It's just too soft around the edges to be genuinely engaging.
I'll probably replace my BMW in a couple of years. Since I'm not blindly loyal to BMW, I'll test-drive every car on the market with RWD & a stick that's priced under $50K. If Toyota can see its way clear to offering a stick on the IS 350 by then, I'll certainly test-drive it & seriously consider it.
". . . .test-drive every car on the market with RWD & a stick. . . ."
Well, that's not going to take you long -- my top two requirements are the same as yours & there's only a handful of cars involved. The RWD eliminates all the less-expensive cars & the manual transmission cuts out the vast majority of the really expensive ones -- does simplify the search though, I guess.
If you want a fold-down rear seat, two fall off & if you don't want to get stung with another American effort that could be derailed at any moment, another couple go by the wayside.
The IS is simply too small inside, particularly in back (& not all that light in the bargain) & doesn't have that fold-down seat thing.
Good luck with your search. Let us know how it turns out when the time comes.
Your fold-down rear seat requirement certainly thins out the herd. I don't need that, so my search is a little easier.
I'm intrigued by what I've read about the upcoming Cadillac CTS & I'm just unstable enough to find the idea of a stick-shift Caddy perversely appealing. By the time I'm ready to buy anything, the new CTS will have been on the market for 2 years. If it hasn't disgraced itself by then, I'll look closely at it.
Unless the others in the ELLPS category can beat the 3'er in the suspension department, you will end up with a good but not class-leading experience strictly in terms of performance, IMO. Power is no longer an issue and features should take a back seat to the driving dynamics.
Said another way, BMW has already raised the bar with the 335.
". . . .I'm just unstable enough to find the idea of a stick-shift Caddy perversely appealing. . . ."
I know exactly what you're saying here, BTW. I had the same idea when I bought my Lincoln LS in 2000 with a manual -- the first one for Lincoln in 47 years or something like that. The car's fine, but FLM left it high & dry, along with all the fools who bought it the first year for at or near invoice. So, fool me once. . .
I've heard quite a few good things about the CTS, and the next iteration may be an excellent car, especially after the first year or so to work the bugs out.
Comments
However, I wouldn't mind to get a chance to admire other people's IS though.
I had an opportunity last weekend to take advantage of the 60+ degree weather in the Pittsburgh area to "borrow" an unused runway for some test drives of my 911 Turbo. My nephew with a 335i and his fiance with an IS350 came along.
Needless to say, the 2007 911 Turbo is a bit quicker than both of those, easily hitting 150+/- mph within a 1/2 mile, and I wasn't pushing it. But between the IS350 and 335i, it was absolutely no contest, to such an extent it surprised me. My nephew was easily 150+ feet ahead of the IS at (approximately) 1/4 mile and 250+ feet ahead by my imposed speed limit of 125. When they switched cars, my nephew's fiance virtually duplicated the feat, with me in the 335 with her, watching her shifts. Not bad for a "girl" that's never taken a professional driving course.
The last thing I would ever advise anyone to do is buy a car for it's drag racing ability. We'd all be in souped up 1970's Buicks. However, considering that the 335i has a real back seat and nearly as many techno gadgets, I guess the decision comes down to whether you want the "looks" of the IS350 over the performance and functionality of the 335i. But believe me from real world experience, the 335i, at least in 6 speed form, is significantly more powerful and quicker than the IS350. Not to mention, more fuel efficient.
P.S. Do not try to duplicate the above at home. As a part owner, I have access to a private runway that is 6,000 feet long and 100 feet wide, with absolutely nothing to run into.
Geez, that's a big runway. I did all of my basic training on a runway that was 2,942' x 40', with an 840' displaced threshold no less. The first time I landed on anything larger (3,600' x 60') I thought the runway looked so wide that I could land sideways. On your 6,000' x 100' strip I'd probably get lost. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
All my initial flight training was at a stagefield using an 8' by 8' painted square. :P
BTW Spirit, I'd like to come visit you too. How many traffic cones do you own?!?!
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Hehe, I'm not a rotary wing jock, in fact the last time I rode in one of those (a Chinook) was when a screaming Gunny from Uncle Sam's Misguided Children caused me to jump out of the back. :-/
Best Regards,
Shipo
THEN I read on a BMW forum the alarming number of catastrophic transmission failures occurring on the automatics for the '00-'02 models (also the govt. recall website). I then did some research.
The reverse gear goes out with no warning. No dealer or trans shop will fix the trans.
These failures start at around 40,000 mi.
SOLUTION: Replace the automatic transmission.
COST: $5,000
IF you can find the transmission. Often you have to find one in a junk yard. This failure happens so often there is a shortage of transmissions. So your car sits at the dealer for weeks, maybe months waiting for the $5K reconditioned trans to show up. How long will the new one last?
BMW will not back up this trans, does not even acknowledge there is a problem. Basically stonewalling the situation.
My car is fine now...so what do I do? Go buy another BMW? (I do love the way they drive). Wait for the trans to go out?
Well, I have a very bad taste in my mouth about this.
This is why I'm interested in selling my BMW and buying a IS250. I don't even want to try to sell my car to an individual because I know what will happen at some point in the near future (ruin the guy or gal financially) and the guilt will bother me. So, I probably will sell it at CarMax for $3K less than it's worth (around $13K now) and go on.
So much for the Ultimate Driving Machine.
It is the Ultimate Driving Machine when it WORKS.
Have fun shopping for the IS250, you'll definitely like it no doubt. I personally think IS350 is the way to go with the IS.
So much for automatic transmissions.
I also find myself wondering who is really to blame for these failures (yeah, yeah, yeah. I know BMW put the transmission in their car so the buck should ultimately stop with them). Why would I wonder such a thing? If I recall correctly, either ZF or a French subsidiary of GM was building BMWs automatic 3-Series transmissions back in 1999 and 2000. Could it be that BMW is stalling so that they can get some concessions from the manufacturer?
Best Regards,
Shipo
Here is how I would play this. You do not have a problem now and you intend to loose 3K in a sale. You could keep the car and a problem might never devlop.
My uncle owned an automatic transmission shop in Brooklyn, NY for over 40 years. The trannys wear and are very intricate. He serviced ALL autos.
(The tranny fluid is the key so maintain this religiously. I'll gamble you never have a problem.
Today I drove a IS250 for the 1st time at the local dealer. Very impressed!! My son has a '06 BMW 325i, manual shift, sport suspension and I can say his car's fit and finish, quality of materials, workmanship is at a higher level than the Lexus. In some ways it may even drive better. This is probably a personal opinion issue.
Would I have another BMW? Not on your life! The IS250 with stock suspension handles great with minimal roll, excellent ride vs handling compromise. Terrific control around fast sweepers. Incredibly smooth engine with more than adequate power from the 204HP V6. If I do have a gripe, it is that the transmission is TOO smooth..you never know what gear it's in. I like to have some type of involvement when the car shifts gears (bad knee, can't buy a manual shift). It's almost as if the trans is a CVT. The paddles are useless..might as well remove them. The ultimate auto in this respect is the Audi A3 with DSG trans. Those paddles really work, and instantaneously (I test drove it last week). The A3 w/ s-line suspension is a great car but is a little too hard edged for me..similar to a Mini Cooper smoothed out somewhat. If the IS250 had DSG (which I think it will someday) it would truly be an incredible car.
My biggest concern about the IS250 was the back seat leg room. After adjusting the front seats the way my wife and I use them on my BMW, the rear leg room is certainly adequate...about as good as my 2000 BMW (I'm 5'11). This Lexus is not meant to take 4 adults of normal size on a 4 hr road trip (which is fine with me..let the other couple take their own car). I was so relieved there is enough room back there.
The deciding factor for me of the IS250 over all other competitors is the Lexus long-term reliability. This is where Lexus stands out from the field. I am retired and I'd like to keep the car 10 yrs. I only drive 8 or 9 000 miles a year with my car and I feel the BMW or Audi with have major cost issues after a few years. I'm not even planning to buy an extended warranty on the Lexus (after 7 yrs I'll only have 56,000 mi. est.)
Good luck guys on your IS250 - one of the best cars for the money out there.
I understand completely, once burned (or at least potentially burned in this case) and all of that...
A couple of questions:
1) Did you have the chance to drive the A3 without the S-Line package? I've driven both and the base car is much softer than the S-Line.
2) Are you sure about the back seat room on the IS? I'm only 5'8" and with the driver's seat set for me, my (then) 11 year old son couldn't fit in the back seat behind me. The flip side was that in the A3 set up the same way, not only could he fit back there, so could I.
3) Other than your pending transmission issue, do you have any other problems with your 323i? I ask because given your annual mileage, wouldn't it just be cheaper to buy a new tranny for it (if/when it fails) and keep on driving it?
Best Regards,
Shipo
You may be correct about the rear legroom on the A3. If I adjusted it correctly it may have as much or more than the IS250.
The reason I'm satisfied with the rear legroom of the IS250 is probably the way I adjusted the front seats to fit me. I'm 5'11", and I raised the front seat to its highest position possible (this is important), I even tilted the back seat somewhat more than the average driver (bad back so I need to recline it more than normal) but it still provided me with enough room in the back seat without even having to have my knees positioned on either side of the front seat back. In the driver's seat I had about 1" from my knees to the dash. I need my twin, 7 yr old grandsons to fit back there and I think up to the age of 15 or so, they'll fit fine. I even feel adult men could fit there, but not for a long drive. So, in conclusion, the rear leg room is adequate, but barely so.
About the BMW transmission issue:
You brought up a good point. My 323i is in mint condition with only 54K miles; however, this transmission problem occurs without warning and I could be stranded out of town on a trip, without any reassurance that I could find a replacement trans within weeks of a breakdown. If I knew the percent of these cars failing I would have a better feel about keeping or selling it. If it were 1 out of 20 failing (5%), I'd definitely keep it. If it were 30% failing then that is too much of a risk for me (my wife would kill me if it failed on a trip since she's fully aware of the problem).
Sure, going by cost alone, I'd be much better off keeping the car until the trans fails and somehow fix it when it occurs (how long would the reconditioned trans last though?)
And how long would I have to wait to get it repaired since there is apparently a shortage of available tranmissions.
Thanks for your comments.
First off, no BMW has EVER had a V6. Yuck.
Secondly, a BMW 335i will take an IS350 apart in every driving catagory, road or track, period, full stop, the end.
Best Regards,
Shipo
You are either kidding, drunk or both, right? :P
Taking a slushbox to the track? Calling it fun and balanced in the curves? I'll concede that the Lexus IS is a very worthy entry level luxury car. It isn't in the same solar system as a 335i 6-speed or even, for that matter, a 328i, on the sport/performance front. Ditto for the GS vs. the 550i.
My friend was planning to buy an entry lux sedan and wanted to check out the Lexus IS and the BMW 3 series. He asked me to go along with him and check 'em out.
I drove the Lexus IS 250 next. This is my first time driving anything more expensive than a Corolla. The IS250 is a beautiful car. Everything on the inside was beautiful quality. The leather, the plastics, the wood, metal everything felt great to touch and looked beautiful. It seemed to be chock-full of gadgets too: the helpful rear camera that comes on on the nav screen when you reverse, the touch screen nav system that seems easy to use, bluetooth, etc. It certainly had adequate power. The ride was harsh, but not uncomfortable. I didn't push the car too hard on the test drive, but the IS250 felt very comfortable with accelerating out of turns. There was enough passing power on the freeway. The brakes were very powerful. It was a beautiful machine inside and out. It felt and looked like a 35k+ car inside and out, and even had the tech toys to prove it. Even the salespperson was super polite, super helpful in explaining everything on the car. I really liked the car.
Then I went over to the BMW dealership. The sales people were courteous, but not overly friendly. They didn't really try to sell the car - the guy simply said - "Okay, here's the 328i sedan. I'll just sit in the back, let me know if you have questions." The car looks nice, but in my opinion, the Lexus is slightly better looking. Inside, it feels cold and very spartan. The interior is functional and nice but certainly not "luxurious" looking. I was beginning to feel a little let down. The famed BMW didn't seem to be even remotely comparable. And then, I started the car and began to drive.
It took me all of 10 seconds before I actually started to giggle! This car is ridiculously fun to drive! The steering, chassis, and the brakes are magical. The chassis lets you know everything about the road without ever being uncomfortable. It is firm, but never harsh. The steering somehow felt "right". It's hard to explain, but the Lexus didn't draw you in like the BMW did. Every part of the car seems to know exactly what you want - the engine responds beautifully to your foot with linear acceleration. The car invites you to drive faster and is remarkably composed no matter what you do! By the end of my 15 minute drive, I was in love. I'd read about "telepathic steering" and "sublime handling" in magazines, but was very skeptical. This car is all of that and more.
Lexus probably offers more value for money. The Lexus is certainly a more refined, elegant, polished, and beautiful machine. But it is a machine. The BMW, magically, has soul!
To me, there is no comparison.
I've since driven the 335i, and it is a bit more fun that the 328i. On regular streets - I don't think I'd want to pay the extra 6-7K for the 335. I also drove the Mercedes C350 which was a little more fun than the IS250, less gadgety, and equally well finished. But that too was not as fun as the BMW. I'm looking forward to driving the G35 to see if it is as much fun.
The IS driving dynamics leave something to be desired, something supplied by the BMW. I enjoy driving as well, which, from from your point of view, renders me immature.
Thanks so much. Enjoy your Toyota.
BTW, don't you think your boast of saving $8,000 over a "comparable" 328i is a bit disingenious? I just configured the two as I would buy them and came out to an honest difference of $5,000, not at all too much of a premium for a far superior car in pretty much every aspect. Then again, I wouldn't have to pay anywhere near $5,000 extra for a "comparable" 328i. Why? Well, the family wants another vacation in Europe, and instead of renting a car for two weeks, I'd simply do the ED thing again. Hmmm, let's see, save $5,000 off of MSRP and save another $1,500-$2,000 by not having to rent a car in Europe. The 328i is the far better deal.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I feel for you Jerry - you should have bought a Camry. I'm over 40 and on a quest to make my car faster and less comfortable.
By the way, I built a "fully equipped" IS250 (auto, luxury plus, nav/ML stereo) and came up with an MSRP of $42,117 (invoice $36,652).
A fully equipped 328i (premium, nav, logic 7 stereo, xenons, park distance, comfort access, heated seats) came out to an MSRP of $42,830 (invoice $39,540).
Sorry to doubt you, but it is absolutely impossible for a "fully equipped" IS250 to cost $8,000 less than a 328i.
I concede that the 335 handles better than the IS350. But the overall package that the IS350 offers is superior to any 3 series BMW except for the M3. The IS350 compensates for lesser handling with superior speed.
Here's reality for you - I've taken my IS350 to the quarter mile track and ran a 13.8 and smoked a new Pontiac GTO. I ran a 13.8 consistently over several runs. On that tank I averaged over 20 mpg.
I've driven my IS350 on one of the most fun and challenging public roads in the country (touge style canyon running) and it performed well.
And I'm taking it to a performance driving school on a formula style track in March. I'm confident enough in the IS350 to shell out good money for a performance driving school using my car, not a rental or loaner.
The IS350 can use a few improvements, which Toyota surely will provide in coming years. As it stands today, I would go head to head with your 3 series in my IS350. If you're ever in Central Texas, let me know. Let's see if you're willing to take your car to its limits.
BTW, C&D tested the 335i last November and got 13.6 in the 1/4 mile and 4.9 seconds 0-60.
Yes, the IS350 is a very quick sedan, but you should be careful to check the chrome digits glued to the trunk lid before you challenge a 3-series BMW!
Oh to the guy above who believes the cars are comparably priced - I got my IS 250 for $32,000 - and it would have cost me close to $40,000 for a comparably equipped 328!
I was going to say that I am young at heart as well (However, about 15 years older than you) I am retired - just bought a home near the beach (Central Ca. Coast) and run 20 miles weekly. Have lived all over the world - and enjoy the finer things in life - and that includes my IS 250!
No disrespect intended. I have nothing against IS250, either, but simply took an exception on on your drawing the line at 40 years of age for car choices and the kid/immature remarks on 3-series buyers in general.
As to the price difference, I suspect that you are comparing the purchase price of your IS250 with the MSRP of a "comparable equipped" 328i. What is the MSRP of your IS250? Also, I guess you paid cash for the car, so any price difference would translate into actual saving for you. However, for people who lease, BMW, with its low rates and high residuals, offers much better "value" than other contenders in this segment, IMHO. The lease payment on my close-to-$40k-MSRP 328i will be less than $460 with tax included and no money down. Taking into consideration the free (or "prepaid", as some people like to call it) maintenance, I believe its monthly cost of ownership will be lower than that of IS250, G35, or TL -- on a lease basis.
You apparently have lived a fine and healthy life, and enjoyed BMW once. I might choose my car differently 15 years from now. Congrats on your new home and new car. Enjoy them!
Not offering the manual on the 350 is what convinces many that, as usual, Lexus is more interested in the L than the P.
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/style?make=LE&modelid=599&zipcode=90064&trim_gro- ups=rear-wheeldrive,
Here is another set of figures for your reference. For 36 mo/15k miles lease program, BMW 328i has a money factor of .00155 ((3.72%) and a residual of 61%, whereas Lexus IS250 has a money factor of .00255 (6.12%) and residual at 57%. This is why BMW is a better value when leasing for 2-3 years.
Leasing for terms longer than 3 years would not make financial sense in most cases, because the money factor jumps (sometimes double) and the residual drops like a rock. I would purchase the car if I plan to keep it for 3+ years. But then, that is another analysis.
Just what I always wanted in my sport sedan. A kicka$$ stereo & A/C. They've always been #1 & 2 on my list. I guess this explains why the Lexus crowd can't understand BMW folks.
FYI, I don't drive a 330i anymore. Pat deleted my post regarding that.
funny how i mentioned in this same post that the IS350 must be nearly the ultimate driving machine since it can absolutely dust any 330i and nearly every bmw ever made. funny how i mentioned that hands down it has a vastly superior interior and price tag and only the air con and stereo statement gets cracked on.
that's disappointing and desperate at the same time.
i would also get rid of my old 330i too when i came to the realization that it costs nearly 45K and is a huge rip-off.
It's about the drive which leads you to the ultimate conclusion.
Regards,
OW
His 328 had numerous problems, perhaps the most embarasing failure being a water pump failure, which required me to help him out.
My Lexus had never failed me mechanically despite very aggresive and constant hard driving. The car was in abysmal cosmetic condition I only got a $5,000 trade in value but the car was mechanically sound at 130K miles and probably had at least 70k-100k miles of service life. His bmw according to him was literally falling apart at 118K.
If you like driving fast I think it means driving hard and there is nothing more important than having a car that can be abused day and day out, this is where Lexus and Toyota shine. If you want to just transportation just buy a Prius.
Sure the BMW'r may be a great handling and fast car but most modern cars are so fast that most people will never even approach a car's limit in even something so humble as an ES 350. I've driven one too and in the right hands it can be very quick and fast around high speed corners, although the "feel" may be disagreeable to some.
The handling limits of modern cars are just too high to be a true issue for most drivers on public roads,perhaps at a race track but certainly not on our streets and highways. So reliability in my opinion should be key criteria.
Don't know about the current generation (E90) 3-series, but the previous generation (the E46) has been a pretty reliable car. My 330i, purchased new in 2001, has been out of warranty for almost 2 years & has only in the shop once. It helps that when I ordered the car, I stacked the deck in my favor by avoiding the navigation system -- the Japanese are better at that stuff than the Germans -- & the automatic transmission. Since I prefer a stick, that wasn't a hardship.
I respect Toyota/Lexus. My wife so liked her '99 ES 300 that she replaced it a few months ago with an '07 ES 350. It's just that they aren't a whole lot of fun to drive. I've driven the IS 350. It's a well-made, comfortable car. But the best thing that you can say about the driving experience is that it's pleasant. It's just too soft around the edges to be genuinely engaging.
I'll probably replace my BMW in a couple of years. Since I'm not blindly loyal to BMW, I'll test-drive every car on the market with RWD & a stick that's priced under $50K. If Toyota can see its way clear to offering a stick on the IS 350 by then, I'll certainly test-drive it & seriously consider it.
After all, I'm a reasonable guy.
Well, that's not going to take you long -- my top two requirements are the same as yours & there's only a handful of cars involved. The RWD eliminates all the less-expensive cars & the manual transmission cuts out the vast majority of the really expensive ones -- does simplify the search though, I guess.
If you want a fold-down rear seat, two fall off & if you don't want to get stung with another American effort that could be derailed at any moment, another couple go by the wayside.
The IS is simply too small inside, particularly in back (& not all that light in the bargain) & doesn't have that fold-down seat thing.
Good luck with your search. Let us know how it turns out when the time comes.
I'm intrigued by what I've read about the upcoming Cadillac CTS & I'm just unstable enough to find the idea of a stick-shift Caddy perversely appealing. By the time I'm ready to buy anything, the new CTS will have been on the market for 2 years. If it hasn't disgraced itself by then, I'll look closely at it.
Said another way, BMW has already raised the bar with the 335.
Regards,
OW
Don't know about "raised the bar". More like came even with the other players...
I know exactly what you're saying here, BTW. I had the same idea when I bought my Lincoln LS in 2000 with a manual -- the first one for Lincoln in 47 years or something like that. The car's fine, but FLM left it high & dry, along with all the fools who bought it the first year for at or near invoice. So, fool me once. . .
I've heard quite a few good things about the CTS, and the next iteration may be an excellent car, especially after the first year or so to work the bugs out.