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Until the G35, Infiniti's suffered from poor resale. then Infiniti did something smart, they copied Lexus' launch of the LS400. They priced the car well below the major competition and thus a 3 year old G35 has great resale. for some reason American car companies still aren't doing this. If they'd price their cars accordingly, you wouldn't hear complaints about domestic resale.
I've been saying this over and over, price the Zephyr at 25k to 30k with the 3.5 and you'll get would-be TL, G35 and 325i buyers. Price it at 30-35k and you'll end up with rebates and horrible resale values. Essentially Ford, GM, Chrysler should price release their cars with an MSRP that assumes 3-5-7k of rebates (depending on class). Make the fusion a 14-18k top-end car and you'll get sales. Make it 25k top end and you'll get people shaking their heads as they move to a foreign make.
The CTS is dated and is too large to compare with the 330...If BMW couldnt beat a 5 year old Cadillac something would have been wrong in Bavaria.
Um the 99 E46 more than matches up with the CTS. Infiniti, Caddy, Lexus, Audi all brought players to the game well after the fall '98 introduction of the e46. And yet none of them could match the chassis dynamics of the e46.
As for the Accord the best domestic competitors would be the G6, Malibu SS, Fusion/Milan. Chrysler doesnt have a credible midsize car at this point in time. As of July 2006, you can add the Saturn Aura (you probably havent heard of it) to the list because it will be attractive, have DOHC power and a 6 speed auto. I would also expect 18" wheels, stability, remote start, and a great interior. Naturally those things wont matter to you because it wasn't designed in Japan,
You're missing the most important ingredients...smooth engines, capable handling, refined ride at 100 and a manual. GM's pushrod engines aren't smooth. That's my biggest beef with all American engines. Their engines all feel and sound like broken washing machins....from the corvett'e touted engine to the raspy 4 in the neon, American engineers tend to build rough engines.
There's nothing made in the USA that compares to the sweet smoothness of Audi's 2.0T. Only BMW's inline 6s can come close to the audi engine and even then they fall well short of that divinely inspired little engine.
For you to be a supposed sports sedan guy and not to see where I'm coming from is testament to your bias.
The lack of a manual immediately negates most of the sedans you mentioned. I won't address two seaters as i have no use for them. I do my best to avoid impractical cars.
I get that you really dig the CTS-V. I'm glad it has a fan. For what I want - luxury, performance, handling, smoothness, efficiency, some measure of lightness the CTS/CTS-V misses the mark by a long shot.
All I am saying is give respect where it's due.
I really can't, yet. They have nothing that I respect. There's a balance that comes when you drive a 3 or a Porsche 911, a balance that I've never found in anything engineered at an American company.
This isn't to say i won't change my mind one day. I was deadset against BMW until I drove everything under 45k and realized only one car felt just right. Even then I'd prefer if my car were lighter, faster, had a good 6 speed manual (nobody can touch honda), didn't have 18s (17s are lighter and make for better handling in my experience), had an engine that wasn't so torque-less. but alas, i'll take my cars deficiencies, and there are plenty, for the sublime moments my car draws the perfect line.
Maybe one day the Big 3 will produce a sport sedan that gives me that mix of excitement and absolute contentment. Additionally, it will have to be priced at least 5k lower than a comparable 3 series vis European Delivery - so about 10k off the BMW's US MSRP might get me into an American car if it's on par. Right now, they don't sell such a car. Hell, only Caddy and Mopar sell a RWD sedan. And their cars are overpriced for what you get.
A CTS 3.6 with xenons, performance package, memory seats, etc has a sticker of 37k Carsdirect shows it for 32k. Add in 1k for service over 4 years and I'm looking at 33k. Not a bad deal, assuming I could put up wih the bad handling, huge size, poor ergonomics and horrible interior (the exterior is hideous too but I drive inside a car so its exterior is irrelevant).
A 330i e90 with sport package, 6 mt, moon, leather, xenons, comfort access is 35k via european delivery (maintenance is included). For a measely 2k difference, I'll gladly buy the car that lives up to my expectations.
Whoa !!!! I can tell you pulled that one out of left field. Don't hate the player, hate the game....
Rocky
Wont happen..
They may ( should ) be restructured into smaller more efficient world class entities with a size more in relation to their actual sales than their 'hoped-for' sales.
Heck, there would be no incentive to stay in the U.S. Not only will the landscape be dotted with abandoned Big Three factories, but empty transplants that packed-up and moved back to Asia. Huh??
The landscape is already dotted with nearly abandoned Big 3 factories that have for the most part outlived their usefulness and need to be realigned with the actual demand for the products they make.
Why would transplant factories leave? The US population isnt going to disappear and suddenly stop purchasing vehicles.
The same was being said of the domestic steel industry back in the 70's and 80's. Gloom and doom, 'woe is me'.. so Nucor and the mini mills reinvigorated it and the US steel industry is alive and thriving. It's only business.. life goes on. It's not a big deal, really. Life changes and continues.
Rocky
So yes I think that Honda and Toyota are very smart in building plants in areas where people don't like unions. Companies exist is to build good products and to provide profits for share holders. For some odd reason union people think that companies exist to provide welfare for union members. That is just not right.
You are an educated and informed poster! Thanks for at least acknowledging the screwball economics that allow a company to take advantage of the infrastructure, defense and economic climate of a great nation, make enormous profits, with out having to pay their fair share of taxes. I just think it's important for Americans to know this. Especially the one's who put the made in China "support our troops" emblem on the back of their Japanese car. The Japanese Corporation who's name is on that car paid nothing to the cause of our troops (the workers who assembled it in the US did). And last time I checked, Japan bailed on us in Iraq about two years ago.
As far as sub-par work ethic, why did the Top Manufactoring Plant in the world was at the Buick Hammtrack Mi. plant :confuse:
LOL Rocky
Loren
Rocky
You continue to make this statement but it boggles the mind to understand what you are saying.
Consider: You are saying.. "..that they are extracting more wealth than they are creating". So if Honda sells an Odyssey minivan for $30000 they extract more profit than all the other suppliers, workers and governmental agencies taken together?
You will have to show me these figures. By your statement if Honda makes 10% profit ( $3000 ) everyone else combined makes less than this? I sincerely doubt it.
I doubt it but if you show me the numbers I'll change my opinion. But...if Honda does make such a profit, and GM/Ford dont for the time being, why not buy Honda stock and bring your fair share of these profits back here.
Rocky
Do you REALLY think that even without tariffs, the Japanese would buy our unrefined, hulking gas-guzzlers in any significant numbers? How many of our American cars are sold with right-side drive for their market? How HARD have the American carmakers worked to earn their business? Heck, the big 2.5 haven't even worked HARD to earn OUR business!!!!!
Toyota and Honda have vehicles they sell here that they sell nowhere else! How many vehicles have the big 2.5 designed for Japan?
If you rank which car companies have worked hard for which markets, you get (in descending order):
Japanese maker/Japanese market
Japanese maker/American market
American maker/American market
American maker/Japanese market
What car or cars do you currently own ???
Rocky
~~~~end quote~~~~
An Avalon is probably worth around $26 to $28K.
The BMW 330i is something I wouldn't pay more than $32K to $33K for.
Loren
I'm not a proponent of american cars but I will answer when I'd use 400 hp - every day. Yes, every day. There's not a day that goes by I don't take my car near redline or hit WOT in 2nd, 3rd or 4th. I don't redline in 4th and up but 1st, 2nd and 3rd see near redline often.
As for the wheels, I agree that 18s are too much weight v. minimum trade-off. I've found 17s offer the best bang for performance, ride and handling. Maybe 18/19 inch rims forged of a super light alloy would change my mind but for now 17s are the perfect compromise.
FWIW, my current car has 18s. My commuter car - sold a few months back - had 16s.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
These things dont happen in a vacuum. They are negotiated by the participants. Whether it's done in public or not is immaterial. To think otherwise is naive. There are tariffs on imports to Japan and there are 25% tariffs on imported trucks from Japan and Thailand. These were negotiated by the participants.
The WTO is a forum and a means to discuss these matters. There's lots of posturing and blowing smoke but if its really really important than a solution is found that is acceptable to everyone. It might entail compensating tariffs and it might entail (sshhhhhh) market-sharing agreements. And you know what sometimes some people get the better of others even in negotiated market-sharing agreements. Count on it.
Rocky
Loren
Rocky
Did they say that KY, TN and AL might out performing other regions as transplant factories grow and increase volume?
Again I will refer to the US steel industry. It moved from the old industrial flyover states to the south. It is more efficient and dynamic. This is a good thing. Life goes on.
Loren
However I'm sure the next gen. M3 will cost you in the mid $60's for a copy since a loaded 330i will cost you low $50's
Which makes the next gen CTS-V with 515 hp. (rumor) a bargain. especially if it looks anything like the Deville/STS/Slade in quality
It will be very interesting indeed !!!
Rocky
Is that how you pick cars? you seem seriously wrapped up in how much attention a car should get the driver.
Don't you ever get on the freeway? Don't you ever pull out onto a busy street (assuming there's a big gap and you're safely pulling out)?
A freeway on ramp or a light to get on the interstate are just two places where one can safely punch it and no copper is gonna blink about it.
As for your other questions, you got to put a lot of silly stuff on a 330i to get the price near 50k. You'd have to load on junk like navi, active steering, adaptive cruise, etc to push the price that high. 41k MSRP for a nicely outfitted 330i (35-36k european delivery price).
You are right on the Aveo. had to throw that one in their since it's a insult to included in the GM line-up. The GEO brand actually was a respectable brand, and the use cars are cheap and reliable. I like the style and interior better in the Cobalt than I do in the Civic Si. I here they might up the ante in hp. on the Cobalt with the same turbo engine that is going into the Soltice
However having a family such as I, the next CTS or CTS-V would be more appropiate for me. Not to mention more luxurious.
Why don't you look at a 98'-2004 STS ??? Got a V-8 and the legendary Northstar. I'd also reccommend a Olds Aurora 95'-2004 4.0 or 3.5 Northstar/Shortstar. My wife and I are currently looking for a Aurora that a old lady drove to church on sunday. My grandma said she is going to sell her 01' next yr. so we might buy that one also.
Rocky
I've heard that bmw doesn't even have any assembly plants in germany; but has one in the US as does many other major foreign car makers. Thus, i'm inclined to believe that our govt has done something about it; the bulk of the problem with US Big 3 lies w/Big 3 themselves. Nothing constructive will come of scapegoating others IMO.
Loren
You are right on the Aveo. had to throw that one in their since it's a insult to included in the GM line-up.
An insult to who?
Sorry, just couldn't resist that one!
For one, the price of gasoline in their countries is far higher than here, so fuel economy is very important. Which is something that the Big 3 could not care less about.
Another point is the side mirrors. If your cars do not have folding side mirrors, you can kiss any asian sale goodbye. Parking is a nightmare at the best of times, and most tend to park on the side of the street. Streets that are VERY narrow. Without a folding side mirror, you can rest assured that your mirror will not be attached to your car after a few hours. And most US cars do not have folding side mirrors.
Furthermore, cars in the far east tend to be much smaller than US cars, for good reason. Driving down alley's so narrow that an Escalade would be crushed is a common occurrence. The Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Hyundai Accent are NOT the base model cars in the far east. They're regarded as mid-sized vehicles. The Daewoo Matiz, or anything by Daihatsu are what is considered a 'small' car. So, without comparable models, US car makers cannot even begin to pierce the youth market. Someone fresh out of city college or technical school will be buying a Daihatsu, or equivalent vehicle. Can you see them starting out with a Buick Lucerne?
Heck, a Lucerne wouldn't have even FIT on the road my apartment in Songtan was located on. The Lucerne's side mirrors and paint would have been scraped off. And then it would've gotten stuck half-way down, pinned between the nearby building's walls.
The only reason GM can even start to compete is because they bought Daewoo. And the Daewoo Matiz and Kalos (Aveo) are perfect for Asian roads. (Go figure, they're made by an Asian car manufacturer. G-d forbid that Chevy would even stoop to making a 'small' car!)
Though, the Ford Focus (European version), would probably go over quite well, providing they had a smaller car for sale for the 'entry' buyer. Then the Focus would definitely fit in as a 'mid-size'.
There are other reasons, but I'm just not up to writing a multi-page post on this. Suffice to say, I've missed most US auto developments from 1999-2005.
Rocky
The 95'Aurora could be the one Oldsmobile car of the 1990's which has some hope of being a classic. It was originally planned as a Cadillac and yes, has the Northstar engine. The problems per car are greater though than is the last model of Aurora. Meet you at a car show in 10 years.
Loren
I think that you are referring to Hamtramck Michigan. Hammtrack would be were pigs go racing. Hence the name Hamm Track :P
Wouldn't you wanna drive a diesel car with 479 lbs. of torque that get 35 mpg. like in a Audi A8 in Europe ?????
I know I would
Rocky
I knew I missspelled the name of the plant, thinks for correcting my error
Rocky
Wrong, rocky..
The US steel industry is the model for the entire world and is thriving and dynamic. Visionary people make change profitable.
-That's where the bank vault feeling comes into play, just in case I hit one.
Yeah I do agree with you the Aurora will be a classic.
Rocky
A freeway on ramp or a light to get on the interstate are just two places where one can safely punch it and no copper is gonna blink about it.
The answer is yes I do travel on the freeways. You can not go all that much faster from zero while pulling into traffic without simply spinning wheels, or getting your car sideways. Most freeway ramps are not meant to do over say 80 MPG tops.
Loren
I'm not educated in the steel-industry, but remember seeing something about how their is no more steel mills in the U.S.
Didn't they mostly all go to Japan since the EPA had such strict smog rules ????
Thanx
Rocky
I however also love automobiles very much and do love to drive let's say spirited once in a while
Rocky
Cool huh ?
Real brief synopsis.
The US steel industry was even more poorly managed than the Big 3 here. Every word you hear on this forum was uttered 30 years ago about the US integrated industry. It was based in the narrow corridor from Bethlehem to Gary, In + Birmingham, Al.
For 20+ years USS, Bethlehem, LTV, Armco fought imports which were better, more reliable and less expensive. But the barriers to entry are even more substantial in the steel industry than in automaking. No transplants exist.
Tariffs and quota's were established to give the US mills protection and it worked while they modernized. When I started in 1977 some plants still used 1890's technology (?). Ironically the driving force for modernization was...The BIG 3 automakers. 'Modernize or we will buy every pound of steel from Germany, France and Japan!!!' :surprise:
I was sole supplier to Ford and Chrysler on multiple parts then.
The bulk of steel used in the US is common grade just like CamCord are common vehicles. What the big integrateds didnt foresee, nor any other steel maker anywhere else in the world, was the risk and the potential of the US minimills like Nucor Steel to become meaningful competitors. In 10 years Nucor went from making rebar to killing off Bethlehem Steel,and with the other mini's here, essentially killed the US integrated steel industry.
Dynamic innovation. During Nucor's growth Ken Iverson the CEO had his HQ in a strip mall near Charlotte; held strategy meetings at the local IHOP; and operated with a HQ staff of 20-30 people.
OH.. every single plant was non-union and worked on a 100% productivity bonus. If you were a steelmaker you could also be put into service in other areas if demand warranted it. They located mainly in the South in rural areas where there was easy access to shipping and mechanically inclined workers. ( sound familiar? ).
There was no way minimills could get their quality up to automotive standards .. until the Big 3 automakers suddenly said 'Oh BTW, Nucor is replacing you Mr. Integrated because they are 20% less expensive. See ya.'
It can and should happen in the auto industry as well. change is good.
Rocky
Loren