There's no question that the bulk of Toyota's problems are related to vehicles built in America using American parts. Not all though - the rather nasty steering problems with the Toyota Prados (and 4Runners here) and also with the first-gen Priuses and Yarises (in Japan) were either the result of bad design or cheaping out too much on the spec for the parts, and those were all Asian-built and Asian-supplied.
And the term "Toyota haters" might be going a bit far, especially with me - I have been a die-hard fan of Toyota for 25 years, and I feel I am in a good position to know that the company with the Toyota name today is NOT your father's Toyota. Not any more.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I guess Toyota was relegated as a media scapegoat when they became #1.
There's no question, but then this is exactly what GM fans always complained about - being #1 puts you in the spotlight in a way that being #3 or 4 doesn't. And it is true that Honda has had a number of depressingly widespread problems since the year 2000, and has had precious little bad press over it. Ford seems to get a pass quite often too - they fly just under the radar, even as they maintain a fairly solid #2 or 3 position in sales!
If it's any consolation, it appears that GM is on its way back to being #1, so maybe they will start to get more heat again. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
does anyone really feel in here like Toyota is on the wane so much that they're gonna be out for the count? Come on. I have been on here throughout this whole debacle with SUA and I have totally changed towards Toyota.
Here's a few reason, car snobs. I mean car nuts. I mean all of you all who love to talk about cars.
1) I love the fact that Akio Toyoda is a car lover. A racer. A drifter. A Japanese car fan. I drive a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS and have come to call the Japanese cars the most exciting cars and also the best values in cars. But here we have a Japanese dude who has taken a look at his relative's company and noticed that the AE86 spirit is gone. He wants ta bring it back. More power to him. You guessed it, he orders a sporty coupe to be built. Toyota has designed the FT-86 at ED2, their Nice, France, their European Design 2 Center. Very smart move by Toyota.
2) I love the fact that Toyota has bought 19% of Fuji Industries' Subaru. Don't anyone forget that this FT-86 has Subaru underpinnings. This car will be RWD and about 2,700 pounds. Weight will be distributed such that driftability will reign supreme and tart. Toyota will gain from this relationship right away by installing Subaru boxer 4 cyl. motors in the FT-86. The gearshifting will also be Subaru product build. Smart and tastily done, Toyota.
3) I gotta tell ya, you all might think that the new deal you get when you buy a new Toyota, the free maintenance for 2 years or 25,000 miles, whichever comes first, is so much cheesepaste. For my wife and I, the first one to come around will be 25,000 miles, because we live in a very remote Nevada town, a town that owes it's beginning to the railroad and mining. Although small, Elko is cash-rich because we mine gold here. Need I splane myself further. But my original point here is that we mostly stay in Elko. Reno is about 289 west, for example. We'll head over there but not often. We don't need to...we've got buttloads of stores here in Elko. Two bowling alleys and two movie theaters. Great cable company with Showtime and TMC at home. I have only put about 6,600 miles on our 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS since mid-May. So project that mileage out a year and it comes out to 15,840 miles in a year. So if I drive at roughly the same rate the 25,000 mile mark will come at about the 20 month mark. Not quite 2 years. But this is a decent perk. Toyota's powertrain Warranty is kind of light, but, if you're honest and have bought several new cars, you'll have noticed a couple of things. New cars are being built better and better with the passage of time, and, and it is a big and IMHO, most of the problems with new cars occur in the first 12 months, or 15,840 miles in our case. So, you see, we're covered, baby!
I have thought long and deep about the 2012 Scion FR-S. I am still open to further thought on this matter, but, from enthusiasts thoughout the web comes this main thought about the Toyota FT-86. Toyota can not charge $25,000 for the Scion FR-S base model. They'll be laughed right off American Scion lots. No kidding. I've spent countless hours, just like I did when researching my Lancer, researching the technical data on the car but also something else. This FT-86 is really going to sell well, and Toyota is very smart to see that they must sell a 4-door sedan variant. You will see once the FT-86 is out that Scion will sell many more sedans than coupes. It's a lifestyle thing. They are very smart to realize this from a cash-flow standpoint. I see them making very good decisions of late.
I don't even hold the SUA against them. Heck, all carmakers make mistakes. I am only focusing on one car, but when you do that, you learn scads about the company building the cars and their business culture. Toyota is having some serious problems but they will pull out of them IMHO.
Everything is lining up for us to buy a 2012 Scion FR-S in the winter of 2011 or we might wait until Jan.-Feb.Mar. '12. I even started talking about the car to my wife a bit today. She goes "Humm." I explained some background about Mr.Toyoda and some background about the car. I didn't get the usual "We don't need a new car" or anything like that. I have a picture of the G-Series showcar on my BlackBerry Curve 8530 main screen and showed it to her. Guys, this is a brilliant start. Perhaps the fact that the car won't be out for another year cheered her up. Or the fact that in a year many things can happen and planning on buying a new car one year and 3 months before it comes out is just plain silly putty.
I think Toyota is often targeted because they are so huge.
Being the #1 import also puts a huge target on your back.
A 3rd factor is that the cars often don't appeal to enthusiasts, so that group of people won't defend them. Audi got more sympathy because of their rally cars.
I don't know if it is the company ego or the drivers. The spoiled irresponsible yuppie image from 25 years ago still holds true...except now anyone with a pulse can lease one.
German companies have never offered the butt-kissing customer service of some others, and never will...so that can't be an expectation, even if the company is at fault.
of alienating the people who aren't here to read about German cars I'll just add one more thing. VW has a huge ego because they've stated they want to be the number one automaker in the world by the year 2018. What kind of hashish is V-Dub-L-You management smoking, I'd have ta ask?
With all the good cars and superior body designs and really quite comparable powertrains coming from Toyota and Subaru and Mitsubishi and Hyundai and Kia (if not better than the Germans) I don't ever see myself buying a German car much less even wanting one.
VW has a huge ego because they've stated they want to be the number one automaker in the world by the year 2018. What kind of hashish is V-Dub-L-You management smoking, I'd have ta ask?
I think with a little research you will become a believer. VW is huge in the emerging markets of China and Brazil. I don't think VW has had the financial help from Germany that Toyota has had from Japan. And of course GM is now owned by the US government. Anyone have the worldwide figures for the top 3 automakers?
You have to be drinking Jim Jones Koolaid to believe that the Japanese sell anything in the USA that competes with VW and the other German makers out on the road. You have to drive them to know for sure. Don't trust the magazines. They are all in it for the free trips and perks.
With all the good cars and superior body designs and really quite comparable powertrains coming from Toyota and Subaru and Mitsubishi and Hyundai and Kia (if not better than the Germans) I don't ever see myself buying a German car much less even wanting one.
Well, if you don't clear up the credit card debt that you were complaining about a couple of weeks ago, I don't see you being able to afford to afford a German car. So you're better off not wanting one.
Indeed. Anyone who has had to deal with VW dealers tends to not want to ever again. My experience was in the very early 80s and I STILL can't bring myself to get seriously interested in their cars for just that reason - well, that and reliability.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
...of alienating the people who aren't here to read about German cars I'll just add one more thing. VW has a huge ego because they've stated they want to be the number one automaker in the world by the year 2018. What kind of hashish is V-Dub-L-You management smoking, I'd have ta ask?
With all the good cars and superior body designs and really quite comparable powertrains coming from Toyota and Subaru and Mitsubishi and Hyundai and Kia (if not better than the Germans) I don't ever see myself buying a German car much less even wanting one.
You know iluv, I've admired your Boeing story and how you survived the union exit and found real life in AZ (and now ID?). But you need to keep an open mind. I've owned one US nameplate, plus a number of German (VW and Audi) and Japanese (Honda and Acura and Mazda) cars.
The Japanese cars have been clearly better designed and have been generally very reliable. You'll see from the makes we chose that I favor tight steering and handling over numb Toyota-like rides. I'd rather have a little road noise than numb, quiet, and floaty. I appreciate that others prefer it differently.
But I'll tell you, the Mazdas are as close as it comes to the German feel, but they are still not there. And for the interior quality, the Germans have it beat, even over my Acura. After 5 years my acrua leather is wrinkled and the car has a smell that is a bit undesirable (with no dogs or kids or smoking). The Audi still smelled and looked and felt like a premium car at the same point. The handling and shifting was like butter. Now the reliability is worse and especially for VW, the dealer experience and costs are much worse. But there is a feel and a quality to the German vehicles that nobody else duplicates. What's funny is that what VW had going for it was smaller, taut, very high quality (interior) cars. Now they seem to want to go more mass market, and look at the new Jetta. It's bigger, looks like a Japanese sedan, and is cheaper inside and out. They are giving up their previous advantages without having the advantages of the Japanese - reliability and lower service costs. IMHO VW is shooting themselves in the foot and they have got to be kidding if they think they are going to massively raise their market share.
So I think you are wrong when you say that the Japanese are comparable to the Germans. You should really own a German car for a change; I think you might change your perspective. But be ready to bend over once the warranty expires (not that they are SO unreliable, just that when you DO need repairs it often is not pretty).
Good post. My story is similar. I've been buying & driving Japanese since '74, when I bought my 1st new car: a Honda Civic. Along the way, we've bought Nissan & Toyota/Lexus. All have been good cars. Currently, we have an '07 Lexus ES 350 & an '06 Honda CR-V.
I would have been perfectly content to buy & drive Japanese forever. But then I had my mid-life crisis in the early 2000s & fell head over heels for the E46 generation BMW 3-series. Convinced my wife that if she didn't let me buy one, I'd go out & do something really stupid. Treated myself to a 330i with stick (naturally) & sports package.
I've had my BMW for over 9 years & it continues to thrill me. The way it just digs into curves, that perfectly weighted steering, the sound of that inline 6 - well, there's simply nothing like it. It's just sinful.
I like & respect the top-tier Asian brands - Honda, Toyota, Hyundai - but I love my BMW.
Every driver owes it to himself to have a fling with a German car. It's one of life's great pleasures.
I tend to agree with you in regards to the pros and cons between the Japanese and Germans but where I don't agree is saying that the Japanese and Germans are not comparable. After having a MB, Caddy, Acura, and Infiniti, I can tell you that all are comparable to each other, but certain ones have advantages over the other, similarily to what you point out for each. No single vehicle is vastly superior to another so its not really correct to say they are not comparable, it depends on your priorities and what your looking for.
It doesn't make any sense to say the Japanese and Germans aren't comparable yet make the point that poorer reliability and out of warranty/maintenance costs are higher. How do those two cons make the Germans so superior to the Japanese? It doesn't. It all comes down to what your looking for and want in the vehicle.
Also, I disagree about Mazda being the closest to the Germans, I feel after extensive test driving that Infiniti is as close to a German vehicle, you can get, specifically BMW. The only thing the BMW had more superior was the ride quality was more refined. Handling and braking was equal after back to back test drives on the same route.
But we are actually getting off topic of this discussion specifically. This is the midsize sedan thread and we are talking more about the luxury companies now which is in another thread here on edmunds.
But we are actually getting off topic of this discussion specifically. This is the midsize sedan thread and we are talking more about the luxury companies now which is in another thread here on edmunds.
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but we've been off-topic for the last month or so - ever since iluv, who previously hated all things Toyota (so much so that he refused to spell it with a capital "T") fell in love with the yet-to-be introduced FT-86 & decided that the company wasn't so bad after all.
This really isn't about mid-sized sedans. (There's another thread dedicated to that topic.) This is supposed to be where people come to bash or defend Toyota.
Toyota is in the recall spotlight because they hid so many of the problems over the years, while dropping high quality below profits, which ended up biting them in the butt. Additional recalls are not over yet, either.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Does anyone but Honda and Toyota drivers respond to CR surveys?
Sort of a self-selecting survey eh? I would have voted for Toyota back in the early 80's based on my '82 Tercel, and if I trusted CR, I would be buying and voting Toyota yet.
But CR steered me wrong on a canoe back in '74 when I should have gone to the local whitewater store, and that was that. I'd rather go to an enthusiast site for product reviews. The true believers know who's mending and who's on the rocks.
I'm sure going to trust Juice and what he says about his Sienna over what some guy in a lab coat in a magazine measured with his calipers.
(I'm really not being fair to CR since I haven't read one for years so they may have some good info. Mostly I hit sites like Amazon for reviews for things like DustBusters or toaster ovens. I sure don't want to pay to read that kind of info, when there's so much out there for free).
What a joke ! toyota just announced another massive recall of about 1.5 million cars and YET AGAIN CR gave them the top score. Make sense ?
For me, on the other hand, I noticed that among the big volume players, other so called " lower ranked " brands, if you really open your mind, they have FAR FEWER, MUCH fewer recalls than the so called top ranked brands.
These brands are NISSAN and HYUNDAI. But why is it that CR always rate them so low ? Does not make sense at all.
Its like in the aviation industry, toyota airlines recently have by far the MOST number of spectacular crashes, YET aviation magazine gives them the TOP SAFEST airline award.
Don't make me laugh ! I will get a Nissan or Hyundai anyday today. Give me proof that these two brands have recalls far ahead of toyota and honda. Well at least Honda's no. of recalls is relatively low too, similar to Nissan and Hyundai, but toyota ? Come on CR !
Looks like more and more people are starting to realize that counting on toyota's reliability simply based on what jd power and CR says is sheer idiocy. Maybe this is the first sign that the wheel is starting to turn. Nissan and Honda did far better than toyota, and this makes more sense because the number of Nissan and Honda recalls is FAR less than toyota.
Japanese car giant Toyota said today that its worldwide production suffered the first drop in a year in September on slower domestic sales and exports while its rivals reported robust growth.
The world's largest car maker, which has been battered by a global recall crisis that has affected over 10 million vehicles worldwide, last week announced a further recall of 1.5 million vehicles to fix a brake problem.
The figures come today as a report said the company was facing a near $2 billion hit as it revises down its dollar forecast, with the greenback sitting at 15-year lows against the yen.
Toyota's worldwide production, excluding output by Daihatsu and Hino subsidiaries, fell 1.3% from a year earlier to 672,604 units in September, marking the first year-on-year fall in 12 months.
Domestic production in Japan fell 1.4% from a year ago to 305,853 units, the first drop in 11 months. Sales in Japan shrank for the first time in 14 months on the expiration of government incentives for buyers, falling 6.3% to 133,843 units.
Exports tumbled 11% to 148,836 units, the first drop in nine months, due to decreased exports to North America, Europe and the Middle East as stable petrol prices reduced demand for fuel efficient hybrids.
Shipments to Europe also fell on the expiration of government incentives to replace old cars with newer, environment-friendly models in France, Britain and Italy.
However, Toyota's smaller rivals reported robust figures for both production and exports.
Nissan said its global production soared 27% to 395,658 units, a record for a single month, as exports rose 38.3%. Honda said worldwide production rose 9.2% to 328,368 with exports surging 67.1%.
Japanese car makers, although enjoying strong sales, are struggling to cope with the yen's advance against other currencies, which erodes their overseas revenue when repatriated.
all yer collective points are? I am closer to the Asian makes more than ever after reading your collective soul above. Here's a thought for you. Combine the reliability and dealer network of Toyota. Then add the brilliance of their collaboration with Subaru on the gear and powertrain. Consider the great job done by their ED2 on the FT-86.
Now throw in a 2-year maintenance deal free of charge and consider the fact Sscion was a possibility twice before and the FT-86 is coming to America in base 6-speed manual tranny form for about $21,000 and you have that feeling inside you like in 1979 when the Seattle Supersonics won the NBA Championship over the Washington Bullets.
>Does anyone but Honda and Toyota drivers respond to CR surveys?
Since CR doesn't release their raw data for the "questionnaires" or how they use their divining wands to determine which cars they favor, I give it less credit than Amazon reviews. It's amusing to watch the faithful go crazy when toyota keeps getting caught with their underwear showing. Through engine sludge that didn't happen and secret improvements to cars in for service, the followers have insisted they had some secret ingredient missing from the US brand cars.
Then came the revelation that toyota used, gasp, CTS US made accelerator pedals built to their specification.
Because CR has been caught many times now about the trivial differences in their data levels, they had to go along with downgrading the toyota cars lately. So it follows that they would have to give kudos the first change they got.
As for the Hondas, ask the owners of the VCM Accords and how they have been finding things and how Honda treated them. Ask the Odyssey owners in the decades long saga of transmission failures and replacements at thousands of dollars to the customers supposedly at half price.
Reality of regression to the mean is here folks. CR can say whatever they wish.
Just was in the back and front seats of a new Camry that a friend leased after toyota called early to induce her to replace her earlier lease before it ran out (they want to sell cars off the lot apparently). It was spartan and stark. The seats were minimal. The colors were like a funeral chapel. No personality. It rode like a go kart. What does CR see in them?
My feelings and experience with CR to the letter. I would rather read a thousand entries on Edmund's concerning a particular model than go buy a CR and get their biased view.
I did a lot of research when I bought the 2007 Sequoia. That and a huge discount along with Toyota reputation were all deciding factors. I have no safety or mechanical issues. Mostly the obvious cuts in quality electronics by 2007.
My biggest gripe is with dealer service being overpriced and poor quality. The dealership I bought from has had 2 new owners since October 2007. When I give the dealer a list of concerns I expect them to be addressed. They are better at making excuses saying that is just the way the vehicle was poorly designed.
Yes, but as we've seen they have improved (on the mend?) and are now taking a better-safe-than-sorry approach and fixing things even preventatively now, well beyond what other manufacturers are doing (which is why comparisons are relevant).
Has BMW fallen off its high horse? Besides the not-enough-of-a-recall for the HPFP, the new 5 series went a bit soft, in Consumer Reports the Hyundai Genesis actually drove through their avoidance manuever at a higher speed.
You think that is bad, what about MT rating the Camry best mid-size sedan a couple months back again??? :confuse: :sick: How could they rate that the best even better than the new Sonata after all the recalls and problems Toyota has had the last year:confuse: I mean c-mon, a 5 year old design beat out a brand new one :sick:
CR uses fairly large sample sizes, 1000+ IIRC, so of course anyone but Honda and Toyota drivers respond to CR surveys. Else there would be no results.
Of course you guys don't know that, because none of you actually read the magazine. Probably haven't in decades.
Ask the Odyssey owners in the decades long saga of transmission failures
Boy, that's the worst example EVER! You just shot yourself in the foot, big time.
CR ratings for those transmissions were AWFUL, big black dots. Have you ever even looked at the magazine? Not possible given what you are claiming. Who is biased here? Perhaps look in the mirror. Surprise. It's true...you are saying CR is biased and then provide a perfect example to prove they are not, and it shows how wrong you are.
If anything you just disproved your conspiracy theory about CR being biased.
You'll see similar drops in ratings for Toyota's 1MZ engines prone to sludge, Mazda 626 automatics (CD4E, Ford units to be fair), and all the other headline-grabbing problems the import brands have had.
Funny how people claim bias without even looking at the results, and if you haven't looked, SURPRISE! You are wrong about what the ratings show.
If you're going to criticize CR, at least look so you know what you are talking about.
And if CR is biased, why do Honda/Toyota also score well in JD Power IQ studies? And in Durability studies? And with Strategic Vision? And with TrueDelta?
I know, I know, Toyota paid off CR. And JDP. And Strategic Vision. And TrueDelta. And NHTSA too, while we're at it.
Despite all those payoffs they're making record profits, wow.
I forgot, they paid off the press too. Not just Motor Trend, but also Cars.com, USA Today, and PBS' Motorweek. That trio put Camry in 2nd (behind the Sonata) out of 8 sedans.
I am closer to the Asian makes more than ever after reading your collective soul above.
It's your money, big fella, but I shouldn't have to tell you that there are big differences between one Asian brand & the next.
At one end of the spectrum you have Hyundai, which is doing everything right. That's the Asian brand that I'd worry about if I were running a German car manufacturer. Hyundai is hot & getting hotter.
At the other end you have Mitsubishi, chronically a day late & a dollar short, which survives by selling tired designs to rental companies & the credit-impaired. When was the last time you saw a Mitsu without bar code stickers in the rear windows? Mitsu is dull & getting duller.
You also have poor, struggling Suzuki. When was the last time you saw a Suzuki - any Suzuki? Suzuki is dead & getting deader.
Watch the video - interestingly they point out that the Camry was one of the only ones with a brake/throttle override function.
So irony of all ironies, it's among the few without the concern of UA. Also the quietest and best ride by far, plus best ergonomics. Not the enthusiasts' choice but they seem to understand exactly why it sells so well.
If Toyota has used their money to influence the Federal Government, Why not CR via Donations? Or magazines with advertising? We know they pulled ad money from LA Times when they wrote negative articles. I think it is naive to believe that any of the surveys are on the up and up.
Toyota is one of a number of Japanese auto companies who have pursued a policy of lobbying U.S. government officials and funding U.S. political candidates both nationally and locally. In the case of Toyota specifically, more than forty percent of the congressional members serving on the three committees investigating Toyota have received campaign donations over the last ten years from Toyota.
Given CR pulled their "Recommended" rating from a whole slew of Toyotas recently, not to mention the Do Not Buy on the Lexus GX, perhaps all those checks bounced.
Heck, I saw a whole bunch of Suzukis at once on the SE corner of Roosevelt Blvd and Red Lion Road in NE Philly....at a Suzuki dealer. I guess the Kizashi just ain't cuttin' it.
Heck, I saw a whole bunch of Suzukis at once on the SE corner of Roosevelt Blvd and Red Lion Road in NE Philly....at a Suzuki dealer. I guess the Kizashi just ain't cuttin' it.
How do you explain the Suzuki Kizashi winning owner satisfaction awards left and right then? If I wanted a midsize car I would make a safe purchase and get a 2011 Suzuki Kizashi. It's a fun ride and looks better than CamCord's and Fusion's.
Better Warranty, too. It's a good thing we have this interweb to research vehicles ourselves and make the proper choices, eh?
Heck I actually wouldn't call any of the entrants an "enthusiasts choice" but what was interesting to me was the Camry was so closely matched to the Altima from Nissan who is known for being "sporty" in nature.
I'd also wager if the testers actually made an attempt to add an SE model to the mix with a tighter suspension setup larger wheels instead of 16" steelies, the Camrys performance figures would have been even closer to the Sonata which was shod in 18's...
And if CR is biased, why do Honda/Toyota also score well in JD Power IQ studies? And in Durability studies? And with Strategic Vision? And with TrueDelta?
It's good to hear that CR's reports are in line with JD Power and the rest.
It begs the question of why pay to read their stuff when the ad supported sites (like us!) have the same info for free?
Now, Consumer's Digest or Good Housekeeping's pay-to-play recommendations - those I would take with a big grain of salt.
If CR was so thorough, why did toyota continue selling those sludgemobiles after the first year?
You might also recall the automatic recommendation that CR followed for so many years where any new or redone vehicles from their favored suppliers were automatically recommended. Remember how CR undid their recommendation of the Camry? the Avalon redesign.
There seems to be a lot of emotion in your attack on me personally? Is there something personal you're defending about toyota?
I suggest the author look at my point about regression to the mean for the favored manufacturers.
>CR uses fairly large sample sizes, 1000+ IIRC,
Perhaps you can give a list of models and brands and how many respondents CR had for each of those for their 2009 evaluation? 2010? How many evaluated Camry? What were their demographics?
>Since you seem to be an avid reader of CR, what have been their recommendations for Odyssey during these last couple of years as people post on Edmunds about their experience with no support from the factory for out-of-warranty transmission failures? I am sure Edmunds has recommended not purchasing an Odyssey as soon as the first problematic transmission reports came out, didn't they?
>because none of you actually read the magazine.
There you go again with the personal attacks. I do read it when I need something for the house such as a vacuum cleaner.
I also checked to see what they said about leaf blowers since my last one failed. They didn't even test the brand I'm purchasing. They also don't seem to do much in the way of taking apart the ones they do test to see how well the innards and the motors are built. I asked my shop guy at the small town hardware store where they repair the various brands to determine what I bought.
I'd be afraid that Carlos "le cost cutter" Ghosn cut a bit too much in costs on a new Nissan. At least Nissan now seems to be adding some content back - gradually.
why pay to read their stuff when the ad supported sites (like us!) have the same info for free?
Go Edmunds!
No mag is without its flaws but CR provides a lot of information that other mags do not. For instance they take their own measures for things like ground clearance and cargo capacities, rather than reyling on the automaker or the EPA.
Did you post that example out of a 4 1/2 year old CR? Sure looks like it.
Duh, the V6/auto trans combination that is oft cricitized in the Odyssey was for model years 2003 and prior, so that's what I showed.
I'll share current data but the 2010 Buyer's Guide only goes back to 2003. It does show that the problem was resolved, however, so the only thing that is 8 years old is the myth that Honda transmission are still failing:
why did toyota continue selling those sludgemobiles after the first year?
Takes a while for sludge build-up to occur, you know that. It's not like they had sludge from the factory, at 0 miles.
Plus a tiny percentage were affected. Takes time for that to show up in surveys, and it did. The 1MZ V6 engine was last used in 2003 IIRC and yet import bashers still talk it about it all the time - that was EIGHT model years ago, and the two generations of V6s that have followed (3MZ, 2GR) have never had similar issues. Time to let it go, perhaps?
Remember how CR undid their recommendation of the Camry? the Avalon redesign
Yes, so that shows they're not biased, right?
I didn't mean to get personal but you were the one to attack CR and accuse them of bias, then you yourself provided data to the contrary.
Admit it - you were wrong.
The demographics of 2010 Camry owners and the numbers of respondents to their survey won't change that.
Comments
Based on forums here on Edmunds about Honda's problems and handling of those problems now,
>something unreasonable occurred after warranty.
I think that
is starting to changehas changed though.2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And the term "Toyota haters" might be going a bit far, especially with me - I have been a die-hard fan of Toyota for 25 years, and I feel I am in a good position to know that the company with the Toyota name today is NOT your father's Toyota. Not any more.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There's no question, but then this is exactly what GM fans always complained about - being #1 puts you in the spotlight in a way that being #3 or 4 doesn't. And it is true that Honda has had a number of depressingly widespread problems since the year 2000, and has had precious little bad press over it. Ford seems to get a pass quite often too - they fly just under the radar, even as they maintain a fairly solid #2 or 3 position in sales!
If it's any consolation, it appears that GM is on its way back to being #1, so maybe they will start to get more heat again. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Awfully weak schedule to be ranked # 2.
# 1 and # 2 in the BCS at the end of the season do play for the national championship, don't they?
War Eagle!!!
Here's a few reason, car snobs. I mean car nuts. I mean all of you all who love to talk about cars.
1) I love the fact that Akio Toyoda is a car lover. A racer. A drifter. A Japanese car fan. I drive a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS and have come to call the Japanese cars the most exciting cars and also the best values in cars. But here we have a Japanese dude who has taken a look at his relative's company and noticed that the AE86 spirit is gone. He wants ta bring it back. More power to him. You guessed it, he orders a sporty coupe to be built. Toyota has designed the FT-86 at ED2, their Nice, France, their European Design 2 Center. Very smart move by Toyota.
2) I love the fact that Toyota has bought 19% of Fuji Industries' Subaru. Don't anyone forget that this FT-86 has Subaru underpinnings. This car will be RWD and about 2,700 pounds. Weight will be distributed such that driftability will reign supreme and tart. Toyota will gain from this relationship right away by installing Subaru boxer 4 cyl. motors in the FT-86. The gearshifting will also be Subaru product build. Smart and tastily done, Toyota.
3) I gotta tell ya, you all might think that the new deal you get when you buy a new Toyota, the free maintenance for 2 years or 25,000 miles, whichever comes first, is so much cheesepaste. For my wife and I, the first one to come around will be 25,000 miles, because we live in a very remote Nevada town, a town that owes it's beginning to the railroad and mining. Although small, Elko is cash-rich because we mine gold here. Need I splane myself further. But my original point here is that we mostly stay in Elko. Reno is about 289 west, for example. We'll head over there but not often. We don't need to...we've got buttloads of stores here in Elko. Two bowling alleys and two movie theaters. Great cable company with Showtime and TMC at home. I have only put about 6,600 miles on our 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS since mid-May.
So project that mileage out a year and it comes out to 15,840 miles in a year. So if I drive at roughly the same rate the 25,000 mile mark will come at about the 20 month mark. Not quite 2 years. But this is a decent perk. Toyota's powertrain Warranty is kind of light, but, if you're honest and have bought several new cars, you'll have noticed a couple of things. New cars are being built better and better with the passage of time, and, and it is a big and IMHO, most of the problems with new cars occur in the first 12 months, or 15,840 miles in our case. So, you see, we're covered, baby!
I have thought long and deep about the 2012 Scion FR-S. I am still open to further thought on this matter, but, from enthusiasts thoughout the web comes this main thought about the Toyota FT-86. Toyota can not charge $25,000 for the Scion FR-S base model. They'll be laughed right off American Scion lots. No kidding. I've spent countless hours, just like I did when researching my Lancer, researching the technical data on the car but also something else. This FT-86 is really going to sell well, and Toyota is very smart to see that they must sell a 4-door sedan variant. You will see once the FT-86 is out that Scion will sell many more sedans than coupes. It's a lifestyle thing. They are very smart to realize this from a cash-flow standpoint. I see them making very good decisions of late.
I don't even hold the SUA against them. Heck, all carmakers make mistakes. I am only focusing on one car, but when you do that, you learn scads about the company building the cars and their business culture. Toyota is having some serious problems but they will pull out of them IMHO.
Everything is lining up for us to buy a 2012 Scion FR-S in the winter of 2011 or we might wait until Jan.-Feb.Mar. '12. I even started talking about the car to my wife a bit today. She goes "Humm." I explained some background about Mr.Toyoda and some background about the car. I didn't get the usual "We don't need a new car" or anything like that. I have a picture of the G-Series showcar on my BlackBerry Curve 8530 main screen and showed it to her. Guys, this is a brilliant start. Perhaps the fact that the car won't be out for another year cheered her up. Or the fact that in a year many things can happen and planning on buying a new car one year and 3 months before it comes out is just plain silly putty.
Come on back at me, now.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Being the #1 import also puts a huge target on your back.
A 3rd factor is that the cars often don't appeal to enthusiasts, so that group of people won't defend them. Audi got more sympathy because of their rally cars.
I wasn't targeting you, far from it.
Here's a hint: 3-armed grandma.
People eager enough to believe tall tales like that are the ones I'm talking about.
Maybe we could put CTS gas pedals and BMW fuel pumps in the same cars, then when both fail they'll cancel each other out! LOL
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=447262
Funny thing is they say they'll try to re-program the software first, before replacing any fuel pumps.
Not to mention owners of N55 engines are already complaining about the same thing.
This is gonna get ugly.
German companies have never offered the butt-kissing customer service of some others, and never will...so that can't be an expectation, even if the company is at fault.
With all the good cars and superior body designs and really quite comparable powertrains coming from Toyota and Subaru and Mitsubishi and Hyundai and Kia (if not better than the Germans) I don't ever see myself buying a German car much less even wanting one.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I think with a little research you will become a believer. VW is huge in the emerging markets of China and Brazil. I don't think VW has had the financial help from Germany that Toyota has had from Japan. And of course GM is now owned by the US government. Anyone have the worldwide figures for the top 3 automakers?
You have to be drinking Jim Jones Koolaid to believe that the Japanese sell anything in the USA that competes with VW and the other German makers out on the road. You have to drive them to know for sure. Don't trust the magazines. They are all in it for the free trips and perks.
Well, if you don't clear up the credit card debt that you were complaining about a couple of weeks ago, I don't see you being able to afford to afford a German car. So you're better off not wanting one.
That's Piech's ego you're referring to, and you're absolutely correct.
The guy got mad that Mercedes built the A-class to steal Golf sales, so he responded with the Phaeton. We all know how well that sold.
Then he took over Porsche.
Next? World domination.
This while VW board members are having scandals involving prostitutes.
Good luck!
I guess that check still didn't bounce, eh guys?
To be fair Prius dropped to average with the cruise problems.
Sienna is still the #1 van. :shades:
"The Europeans are really struggling at the moment," said Champion.
At least BMW, MB and Audi are making VW look good.
Consumer Reports: Honda, Toyota Still Tops in Reliability; GM Improves (AutoObserver)
With all the good cars and superior body designs and really quite comparable powertrains coming from Toyota and Subaru and Mitsubishi and Hyundai and Kia (if not better than the Germans) I don't ever see myself buying a German car much less even wanting one.
You know iluv, I've admired your Boeing story and how you survived the union exit and found real life in AZ (and now ID?). But you need to keep an open mind. I've owned one US nameplate, plus a number of German (VW and Audi) and Japanese (Honda and Acura and Mazda) cars.
The Japanese cars have been clearly better designed and have been generally very reliable. You'll see from the makes we chose that I favor tight steering and handling over numb Toyota-like rides. I'd rather have a little road noise than numb, quiet, and floaty. I appreciate that others prefer it differently.
But I'll tell you, the Mazdas are as close as it comes to the German feel, but they are still not there. And for the interior quality, the Germans have it beat, even over my Acura. After 5 years my acrua leather is wrinkled and the car has a smell that is a bit undesirable (with no dogs or kids or smoking). The Audi still smelled and looked and felt like a premium car at the same point. The handling and shifting was like butter. Now the reliability is worse and especially for VW, the dealer experience and costs are much worse. But there is a feel and a quality to the German vehicles that nobody else duplicates. What's funny is that what VW had going for it was smaller, taut, very high quality (interior) cars. Now they seem to want to go more mass market, and look at the new Jetta. It's bigger, looks like a Japanese sedan, and is cheaper inside and out. They are giving up their previous advantages without having the advantages of the Japanese - reliability and lower service costs. IMHO VW is shooting themselves in the foot and they have got to be kidding if they think they are going to massively raise their market share.
So I think you are wrong when you say that the Japanese are comparable to the Germans. You should really own a German car for a change; I think you might change your perspective. But be ready to bend over once the warranty expires (not that they are SO unreliable, just that when you DO need repairs it often is not pretty).
I would have been perfectly content to buy & drive Japanese forever. But then I had my mid-life crisis in the early 2000s & fell head over heels for the E46 generation BMW 3-series. Convinced my wife that if she didn't let me buy one, I'd go out & do something really stupid. Treated myself to a 330i with stick (naturally) & sports package.
I've had my BMW for over 9 years & it continues to thrill me. The way it just digs into curves, that perfectly weighted steering, the sound of that inline 6 - well, there's simply nothing like it. It's just sinful.
I like & respect the top-tier Asian brands - Honda, Toyota, Hyundai - but I love my BMW.
Every driver owes it to himself to have a fling with a German car. It's one of life's great pleasures.
It doesn't make any sense to say the Japanese and Germans aren't comparable yet make the point that poorer reliability and out of warranty/maintenance costs are higher. How do those two cons make the Germans so superior to the Japanese? It doesn't. It all comes down to what your looking for and want in the vehicle.
Also, I disagree about Mazda being the closest to the Germans, I feel after extensive test driving that Infiniti is as close to a German vehicle, you can get, specifically BMW. The only thing the BMW had more superior was the ride quality was more refined. Handling and braking was equal after back to back test drives on the same route.
But we are actually getting off topic of this discussion specifically. This is the midsize sedan thread and we are talking more about the luxury companies now which is in another thread here on edmunds.
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but we've been off-topic for the last month or so - ever since iluv, who previously hated all things Toyota (so much so that he refused to spell it with a capital "T") fell in love with the yet-to-be introduced FT-86 & decided that the company wasn't so bad after all.
This really isn't about mid-sized sedans. (There's another thread dedicated to that topic.) This is supposed to be where people come to bash or defend Toyota.
Additional recalls are not over yet, either.
Sort of a self-selecting survey eh? I would have voted for Toyota back in the early 80's based on my '82 Tercel, and if I trusted CR, I would be buying and voting Toyota yet.
But CR steered me wrong on a canoe back in '74 when I should have gone to the local whitewater store, and that was that. I'd rather go to an enthusiast site for product reviews. The true believers know who's mending and who's on the rocks.
I'm sure going to trust Juice and what he says about his Sienna over what some guy in a lab coat in a magazine measured with his calipers.
(I'm really not being fair to CR since I haven't read one for years so they may have some good info. Mostly I hit sites like Amazon for reviews for things like DustBusters or toaster ovens. I sure don't want to pay to read that kind of info, when there's so much out there for free).
For me, on the other hand, I noticed that among the big volume players, other so called " lower ranked " brands, if you really open your mind, they have FAR FEWER, MUCH fewer recalls than the so called top ranked brands.
These brands are NISSAN and HYUNDAI. But why is it that CR always rate them so low ? Does not make sense at all.
Its like in the aviation industry, toyota airlines recently have by far the MOST number of spectacular crashes, YET aviation magazine gives them the TOP SAFEST airline award.
Don't make me laugh ! I will get a Nissan or Hyundai anyday today. Give me proof that these two brands have recalls far ahead of toyota and honda. Well at least Honda's no. of recalls is relatively low too, similar to Nissan and Hyundai, but toyota ? Come on CR !
Read this folks :
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1025/toyota-business.html
Japanese car giant Toyota said today that its worldwide production suffered the first drop in a year in September on slower domestic sales and exports while its rivals reported robust growth.
The world's largest car maker, which has been battered by a global recall crisis that has affected over 10 million vehicles worldwide, last week announced a further recall of 1.5 million vehicles to fix a brake problem.
The figures come today as a report said the company was facing a near $2 billion hit as it revises down its dollar forecast, with the greenback sitting at 15-year lows against the yen.
Toyota's worldwide production, excluding output by Daihatsu and Hino subsidiaries, fell 1.3% from a year earlier to 672,604 units in September, marking the first year-on-year fall in 12 months.
Domestic production in Japan fell 1.4% from a year ago to 305,853 units, the first drop in 11 months. Sales in Japan shrank for the first time in 14 months on the expiration of government incentives for buyers, falling 6.3% to 133,843 units.
Exports tumbled 11% to 148,836 units, the first drop in nine months, due to decreased exports to North America, Europe and the Middle East as stable petrol prices reduced demand for fuel efficient hybrids.
Shipments to Europe also fell on the expiration of government incentives to replace old cars with newer, environment-friendly models in France, Britain and Italy.
However, Toyota's smaller rivals reported robust figures for both production and exports.
Nissan said its global production soared 27% to 395,658 units, a record for a single month, as exports rose 38.3%. Honda said worldwide production rose 9.2% to 328,368 with exports surging 67.1%.
Japanese car makers, although enjoying strong sales, are struggling to cope with the yen's advance against other currencies, which erodes their overseas revenue when repatriated.
more than ever after reading your collective soul above. Here's a thought for you. Combine the reliability and dealer network of Toyota. Then add the brilliance of their collaboration with Subaru on the gear and powertrain. Consider the great job done by their ED2 on the FT-86.
Now throw in a 2-year maintenance deal free of charge and consider the fact Sscion was a possibility twice before and the FT-86 is coming to America in base 6-speed manual tranny form for about $21,000 and you have that feeling inside you like in 1979 when the Seattle Supersonics won the NBA Championship over the Washington Bullets.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Since CR doesn't release their raw data for the "questionnaires" or how they use their divining wands to determine which cars they favor, I give it less credit than Amazon reviews. It's amusing to watch the faithful go crazy when toyota keeps getting caught with their underwear showing. Through engine sludge that didn't happen and secret improvements to cars in for service, the followers have insisted they had some secret ingredient missing from the US brand cars.
Then came the revelation that toyota used, gasp, CTS US made accelerator pedals built to their specification.
Because CR has been caught many times now about the trivial differences in their data levels, they had to go along with downgrading the toyota cars lately. So it follows that they would have to give kudos the first change they got.
As for the Hondas, ask the owners of the VCM Accords and how they have been finding things and how Honda treated them. Ask the Odyssey owners in the decades long saga of transmission failures and replacements at thousands of dollars to the customers supposedly at half price.
Reality of regression to the mean is here folks. CR can say whatever they wish.
Just was in the back and front seats of a new Camry that a friend leased after toyota called early to induce her to replace her earlier lease before it ran out (they want to sell cars off the lot apparently). It was spartan and stark. The seats were minimal. The colors were like a funeral chapel. No personality. It rode like a go kart. What does CR see in them?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My feelings and experience with CR to the letter. I would rather read a thousand entries on Edmund's concerning a particular model than go buy a CR and get their biased view.
I did a lot of research when I bought the 2007 Sequoia. That and a huge discount along with Toyota reputation were all deciding factors. I have no safety or mechanical issues. Mostly the obvious cuts in quality electronics by 2007.
My biggest gripe is with dealer service being overpriced and poor quality. The dealership I bought from has had 2 new owners since October 2007. When I give the dealer a list of concerns I expect them to be addressed. They are better at making excuses saying that is just the way the vehicle was poorly designed.
Has BMW fallen off its high horse? Besides the not-enough-of-a-recall for the HPFP, the new 5 series went a bit soft, in Consumer Reports the Hyundai Genesis actually drove through their avoidance manuever at a higher speed.
That's embarassing.
Of course you guys don't know that, because none of you actually read the magazine. Probably haven't in decades.
Ask the Odyssey owners in the decades long saga of transmission failures
Boy, that's the worst example EVER! You just shot yourself in the foot, big time.
CR ratings for those transmissions were AWFUL, big black dots. Have you ever even looked at the magazine? Not possible given what you are claiming. Who is biased here? Perhaps look in the mirror. Surprise. It's true...you are saying CR is biased and then provide a perfect example to prove they are not, and it shows how wrong you are.
A picture is worth 1,000 words:
If anything you just disproved your conspiracy theory about CR being biased.
You'll see similar drops in ratings for Toyota's 1MZ engines prone to sludge, Mazda 626 automatics (CD4E, Ford units to be fair), and all the other headline-grabbing problems the import brands have had.
Funny how people claim bias without even looking at the results, and if you haven't looked, SURPRISE! You are wrong about what the ratings show.
If you're going to criticize CR, at least look so you know what you are talking about.
And if CR is biased, why do Honda/Toyota also score well in JD Power IQ studies? And in Durability studies? And with Strategic Vision? And with TrueDelta?
I know, I know, Toyota paid off CR. And JDP. And Strategic Vision. And TrueDelta. And NHTSA too, while we're at it.
Despite all those payoffs they're making record profits, wow.
Tough conspiracy theory to believe, no?
It's your money, big fella, but I shouldn't have to tell you that there are big differences between one Asian brand & the next.
At one end of the spectrum you have Hyundai, which is doing everything right. That's the Asian brand that I'd worry about if I were running a German car manufacturer. Hyundai is hot & getting hotter.
At the other end you have Mitsubishi, chronically a day late & a dollar short, which survives by selling tired designs to rental companies & the credit-impaired. When was the last time you saw a Mitsu without bar code stickers in the rear windows? Mitsu is dull & getting duller.
You also have poor, struggling Suzuki. When was the last time you saw a Suzuki - any Suzuki? Suzuki is dead & getting deader.
Watch the video - interestingly they point out that the Camry was one of the only ones with a brake/throttle override function.
So irony of all ironies, it's among the few without the concern of UA. Also the quietest and best ride by far, plus best ergonomics. Not the enthusiasts' choice but they seem to understand exactly why it sells so well.
Toyota is one of a number of Japanese auto companies who have pursued a policy of lobbying U.S. government officials and funding U.S. political candidates both nationally and locally. In the case of Toyota specifically, more than forty percent of the congressional members serving on the three committees investigating Toyota have received campaign donations over the last ten years from Toyota.
How do you explain the Suzuki Kizashi winning owner satisfaction awards left and right then? If I wanted a midsize car I would make a safe purchase and get a 2011 Suzuki Kizashi. It's a fun ride and looks better than CamCord's and Fusion's.
Better Warranty, too. It's a good thing we have this interweb to research vehicles ourselves and make the proper choices, eh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I'd also wager if the testers actually made an attempt to add an SE model to the mix with a tighter suspension setup larger wheels instead of 16" steelies, the Camrys performance figures would have been even closer to the Sonata which was shod in 18's...
It's good to hear that CR's reports are in line with JD Power and the rest.
It begs the question of why pay to read their stuff when the ad supported sites (like us!) have the same info for free?
Now, Consumer's Digest or Good Housekeeping's pay-to-play recommendations - those I would take with a big grain of salt.
You might also recall the automatic recommendation that CR followed for so many years where any new or redone vehicles from their favored suppliers were automatically recommended. Remember how CR undid their recommendation of the Camry? the Avalon redesign.
There seems to be a lot of emotion in your attack on me personally? Is there something personal you're defending about toyota?
I suggest the author look at my point about regression to the mean for the favored manufacturers.
>CR uses fairly large sample sizes, 1000+ IIRC,
Perhaps you can give a list of models and brands and how many respondents CR had for each of those for their 2009 evaluation? 2010? How many evaluated Camry? What were their demographics?
>Since you seem to be an avid reader of CR, what have been their recommendations for Odyssey during these last couple of years as people post on Edmunds about their experience with no support from the factory for out-of-warranty transmission failures? I am sure Edmunds has recommended not purchasing an Odyssey as soon as the first problematic transmission reports came out, didn't they?
>because none of you actually read the magazine.
There you go again with the personal attacks. I do read it when I need something for the house such as a vacuum cleaner.
I also checked to see what they said about leaf blowers since my last one failed. They didn't even test the brand I'm purchasing. They also don't seem to do much in the way of taking apart the ones they do test to see how well the innards and the motors are built. I asked my shop guy at the small town hardware store where they repair the various brands to determine what I bought.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Go Edmunds!
No mag is without its flaws but CR provides a lot of information that other mags do not. For instance they take their own measures for things like ground clearance and cargo capacities, rather than reyling on the automaker or the EPA.
Duh, the V6/auto trans combination that is oft cricitized in the Odyssey was for model years 2003 and prior, so that's what I showed.
I'll share current data but the 2010 Buyer's Guide only goes back to 2003. It does show that the problem was resolved, however, so the only thing that is 8 years old is the myth that Honda transmission are still failing:
Note the 2003 models are "Worse Than Average", and then every year since has been excellent.
Fact is CR does reflect the well known problems and always has.
It cracks me up when people say "what about the Ody transmissions", well did you ever bother to LOOK?
These accusations of bias are totally inaccurate.
Takes a while for sludge build-up to occur, you know that. It's not like they had sludge from the factory, at 0 miles.
Plus a tiny percentage were affected. Takes time for that to show up in surveys, and it did. The 1MZ V6 engine was last used in 2003 IIRC and yet import bashers still talk it about it all the time - that was EIGHT model years ago, and the two generations of V6s that have followed (3MZ, 2GR) have never had similar issues. Time to let it go, perhaps?
Remember how CR undid their recommendation of the Camry? the Avalon redesign
Yes, so that shows they're not biased, right?
I didn't mean to get personal but you were the one to attack CR and accuse them of bias, then you yourself provided data to the contrary.
Admit it - you were wrong.
The demographics of 2010 Camry owners and the numbers of respondents to their survey won't change that.