Off hand, this reminds me of Ford and the Pinto and Explorer/Firestone tire issues.
It has taken decades to regain many of the old Ford customers after those failures. If not for the Ford PU truck loyalists they may have ended up like GM and C. How long will it take Toyota to make up the losses?
>How long will it take Toyota to make up the losses?
That depends on how long toyota will keep hiding the evidence. The judge is keeping the suits in place. toyota tried to get them thrown out.
toyota's statement says the plaintiffs won't be able to prove the problem; toyota's statement does not say there IS NOT problem, just that they will never be able to prove it.
How many people want to be told they are lousy drivers by the company they are considering buying a car from? Hard to believe that Toyota has that much higher percentage of incompetent drivers than their nemesis GM.
Toyota came out swinging on Thursday, telling reporters on a web conference that driver error was a likely cause of many fatalities that have been tied to sudden acceleration.
For Toyota, blaming drivers is dicey from a public-relations perspective. A 1989 study of similar sudden-acceleration incidents at Audi AG, a unit of Volkswagen AG, blamed drivers. Audi was ultimately exonerated of building defective cars. But its sales and reputation took a huge hit.
Well, good luck proving a Tacoma can accelerate faster than a Ford GT.
It's class-action, so I'm sure there are cases with more merit than that, but some of the cases in the lawsuit are a joke.
You know what happens if you floor it at 70mph in a Tacoma?
Nothing.
Nothing happens. The suit alleges it went from 70 to 95 mph "in seconds". I'm not sure it could do it "in minutes". What is that year Tacoma's top speed? Can it even hit 95mph?
This is not to say some cases don't have merit - the pedals were defective and are being replaced, but they stalled for sure, so they should be held liable for those legitimate cases where injuries occured when the pedals could have been replaced.
But show me a Tacoma that can accelerate that fast and I'll show you a liar who is just trying to cash in on a lawsuit, and could possibly damage the case for others.
Nothing happens. The suit alleges it went from 70 to 95 mph "in seconds". I'm not sure it could do it "in minutes". What is that year Tacoma's top speed? Can it even hit 95mph?
You are probably wrong on that. Even a lowly Prius will top 100 MPH. Seconds is a rather wide open figure. Could be 2 seconds, 20 seconds or 200 seconds. If the Tacoma has as good of a V6 as my Nissan, I would say 95 MPH would be a snap. I know mine will scoot pretty fast from 65 to 85 MPH. It will still be in 4th gear at 85 MPH well under redline. Maybe it was an RTR Tacoma :shades:
Toyota will be showing up to the SEMA Show with a very special Tacoma pick-up truck called the X-Runner "Ready to Race" (RTR).At testings, the new RTR sprinted from 0 to 60 mph in 3.95 seconds, 3.85 seconds, and 3.76 seconds (three different tests) and ran the quarter mile in 12.01 seconds at 116.57 mph.
Most of the Tacoma track times I found are quarter mile under 16 seconds, just under 90 MPH. So probably about 8 seconds from 70 to 95 MPH would be average. Top speed listed at 120 MPH.
Old news, GM, Ford, and Chrysler have been operating like that for years, only difference is now, everyone knows that Toyota and the rest of the foreign makes operate exactly the same way.
The irony is that you and many others here have joked repeatedly about how Toyota owners can't drive.
I think you will find those comments were aimed at Toyota when they try shuffling their problems off on the drivers. In reality I cannot believe that Toyota drivers are worse than GM drivers. That is what Toyota would have the courts and US believe. Unless the buyer has total blind allegiance to Toyota, I would think they would be upset. Most people consider themselves better than average drivers. And accidents always happen to the other guy.
That's the 3rd award this month for the Swagger Wagon
Sat in the new Sienna yesterday at the auto show and was absolutely STUNNED at how much they have cheapened the interior vs the older model. I am going to go ahead and read the MT article you linked but right of fthe top of my head I would say this reaffirms why i stopped subscribing to that one - they never seem to have a clue what they are talking about.
Quite honestly, I find it hard to believe that anyone spending $25K or more (the price of most Siennas leaving the lots) would accept an interior this cheap and downright tacky for that kind of money. You only have to spend ONE MINUTE in an Odyssey to know which is the much better place to spend time.
Edit....OK I read it, and here's the crucial line: Your winner, then, by the very slightest of margins, is the 2011 Toyota Sienna SE. In fact the guy admits it was a dead heat between the Odyssey and the Sienna, and the Sienna wins because the guy voting it the best is the only one among them all with kids (and he has only one, not really a minivan candidate either).
The article is right about one thing though - Honda needs to get its head out of its keister (sp?) and put the 6-speed auto in ALL trim levels of the Ody.
Juice, I think you got the best Sienna there will be for a long time, maybe ever. You waited out the crappy 3.3L engine and the whole squeak-and-clunk period and got in after they fixed the noisy interior bits and put in the much better 3.5L engine, but before they ruined the interior for 2011. :sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sat in the new Sienna yesterday at the auto show and was absolutely STUNNED at how much they have cheapened the interior vs the older model.
I was there as well, and totally agree. Toyota interiors in general are cheaping out. The CRV is nicer than the RAV 4, the Ody is nicer than the Sienna, and the Accord is nicer than the Camry - for their respective interiors.
Indeed, we used to use GM as the industry standard for cheap tacky interiors but I think in the year 2010 Toyota has officially surpassed GM for this dubious honor, and is now the standard-bearer for garbage interiors. :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Anyone that blames most of the SUA on the drivers are guilty. It just does not make good sense that more Toyota drivers are incompetent than GM drivers. Yet you would have to believe that based on what Toyota is using as a defense. It is just as easy to slip off the brake and hit the gas in a Malibu as it is a Camry. I would assume so unless the Camry is just not designed as well as the Malibu.
They did cheapen the Sienna compared to my '07, though, check out the glove box.
Even the new top-of-the-line Grand Caravan is priced at $39,995 or something like that (at least the Pentastar V6 will be standard on lesser models).
Minivans as a segment have given up on trying to appeal as bargains and have instead joined the arms race to offer the most features.
You want a bargain? Kia put a great new engine in the Sedona and it starts at $25k, about $5 grand less than the norm.
I do think I got the "sweet spot". 2007 was the first year for the 2GR engine in the Sienna, which added a lot more power and actually tends to do slightly better in fuel economy.
My position is simple - now that the media hype has died down, let's compare SUA complaints for Toyotas to a baseline: other large manufacturers.
That one article said complaints were down 80%, but how does that compare to Ford or Honda?
If Toyota performs the recalls and their SUA comlpaint rate is on par with the others, then the driver error argument is plausible.
If, after the recalls are done, their rate is still significantly higher than Ford (or the industry average), they got some 'splaining to do.
If their SUA complaint rates are lower than average, then it would seem like other manufacturers have to do some explaining.
Being down 80% is very significant though, you have to admit. That means that even if their complaint rate was FIVE TIMES what it was for Ford, down 80% means they'd now be EVEN with Ford.
If it's indeed even, then driver error is completely plausible. Like you said, Toyota drivers are no better or worse than Chevy (or Ford for that matter).
Yearning for its long-lost go-go mojo, Toyota studies Tesla
Earlier this fall, a video crew roamed the halls at Tesla Motors interviewing executives and documenting how the electric car start up does business.
Don't look for the production on the Discovery Channel. It's for internal use only -- at Toyota. At President Akio Toyoda's bequest, the video will be shown to his Japanese employees in an effort to motivate them to rekindle the entrepreneurial spirit he says they lost long ago.
......The motivational video is just one outgrowth of the May tie-up that saw Toyota investing $50 million in the California-based electric car manufacturer. But it highlights how Toyoda hopes the world's biggest carmaker can learn from one its smallest.
"The speedy decision making that's part of its makeup is what we want to absorb," Toyoda said of Tesla at a recent press event.
Toyoda cited Tesla's six-month turnaround in creating an all-electric version of its RAV4 small SUV as an example of Tesla's nimble business dynamics. The concept debut at last week's Los Angeles Auto Show and will go on sale in 2012
Forget mojo, how about just improving the interiors, the powertrains, and the fuel economy to the industry average? In two or three years, Toyota has fallen below average in most classes in which it sells vehicles.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Mid-sizers are getting 35mpg without hybrids, and the new magic number for compacts is 40mpg. Cruze Eco, Fiesta automatics, and now Elantra (all models, any transmission) make that magic number.
Who needs a hybrid?
Toyota has 2 handicaps:
#1: they don't want to take the limelight away from their hybrids, which are sold at higher price levels. A 40+mpg Yaris would potentially cannibalize Prius sales.
#2: a Toyota always has to be less-than-Lexus. This is why they've saved Direct Injection tech for Lexus models, while Toyotas soldier on without it.
Hyundai has no such handicap. DI for the Sonata, and look at it steal sales away from...well, everyone. Sure you can get DI in a Passat CC or Regal...for $30 grand.
Anyone here want to bet against the Elantra?
Sure, 2 others hit the magic 40mpg mark, but with the Cruze it's only the Eco models, and those come with a small gas tank to save weight that hurts range, one of the big benefits of fuel efficiency in the first place. And the Fiesta is much smaller - the Elantra actually qualifies as a mid-sizer per the EPA, one class up from even the Focus.
Elantra will steal Corolla sales just like Sonata is stealing Camry sales.
Toyota has to respond, but like I said, they have to be very calculated, so as not to step on Lexus' toes and also not hurt their hybrid sales.
I like an underdog so it's fun so I'm having fun watching Hyundai crash the party and break all the rules.
And don't forget, the 2012 Focus that launches in like February will have a 40 mpg rating as well. This party isn't being crashed only by Hyundai - in case you didn't notice Ford and GM are crashing it too.
Why make Toyotas suck just so that Lexus can look good by comparison? All the major automakers suffer from the same handicap, yet they mostly deal with it in better ways. Here's a thought: make Lexus cars better, so that Toyotas can move up below them!!!
By the way, I saw that ridiculous CT200H at the show, and the rep standing next to it said he expected it to start around $32K. They had an F-sport model there (is that the most absurd thing you have ever heard? It has a Prius powertrain - it can barely get to 60 mph in 10 seconds) which will be about $35K. The thing looked exactly like a Matrix, and with Prius guts, way too many hard shiny surfaces inside, and a $32K price tag I doubt they will sell any.
Toyota needs to realize they can't put all their eggs in the hybrid basket.
I saw a headline today that Toyota expects to launch 12 more hybrid models by MY 2012, and I say why? Just make your powertrains industry-leading (pretty much what Hyundai is doing across the board right now) and let fuel economy rise while emissions decrease naturally.
Is Toyota the only one still using a pathetically outdated 4-speed auto? I struggle to think of who else there might be still doing this. Chevy has a GIGANTIC sign at the auto show next to their 4-cylinder Equinox which shows that while the 'Nox gets 32 mpg highway, RAV4 makes only 28. Why? In the year 2010, Toyota is STILL using the 4-speed auto in the RAV they were using in 1996 when they launched that model. They could be making 32 highway too, if they had 6 speeds in there like Chevy does. And by the way, one sit in the Equinox for even a minute and it is clear the interior of that thing BLOWS AWAY the RAV4.
Corolla suffers from the same malady - the 1.8L model with the better fuel economy is still using a crappy 4-speed auto dating back to the 80s, and is rated at 34 mpg as a result. They had a newly restyled Corolla at the show on a spinning platform that was roped off, with no further information available, but if they have left the mechanicals untouched it won't matter how much lipstick they slap on that pig.....
Walking around the auto show, I seriously began to wonder why anyone would buy a new Toyota right now, except for the rock-bottom prices on promo deals. They are below average mechanically and their interiors are inferior to just about everyone with the POSSIBLE exception of the pre-bankruptcy Chrysler Group models - that Sebring is still pretty awful, for instance.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Didn't know the Focus would hit 40, that's great. I already mentioned the Fiesta, too. Ford's been improving based on the merit of their products, though EcoBoost is a clever marketing name, too.
GM needs a similar label. The Cruze gets a 1.4l turbo, right?
Here's a thought: make Lexus cars better, so that Toyotas can move up below them!!!
The 2011 A3 TDI, the closest luxury brand 5 door I can think of, starts at $31,125, so CT200H for $32k actually sounds about right. At those prices I'd take the diesel, and still get a $750 credit to boot, I think.
RAV4 is indeed cheap inside but that's par for the compact crossover class. You mentioned the CR-V earlier, but besides some rubberized door handles it has hard plastics and peach fuzz headliners, too. And I'm not sure the Equinox is any better, not to mention the last one I saw at the DC Auto Show stickered for $39 grand. For that entry-luxury price it still had a peach fuzz headliner and hard plastics everywhere. At least the engine has DI.
Corolla is in trouble when the 6 speed (auto or manual) Elantra arrives. They'd better hurry a powetrain upgrade.
Were you really that down on the Camry? My old college roommate just got a Camry hybrid and the interior was decent - more soft-touch plastics than most mid-size sedans. Nice, fabric headliner, too. Definitely a big step above the RAV4 or Corolla.
Good point, but they've always come with premium pricing. Even way back in model year 2006, the GTI had a starting price of $21,990.
The 2011 Sonata is just $19,195, and that's a full-sizer, 2 classes up. I would cross-shop it with the similar CC (both have 4 door coupe styling).
The 2.5l was a major disappointment when it came out with just 150hp and now is merely below par for the displacement at 170hp. Competitors make more power without DI, don't ask me why.
The 2.0T is a good engine, but the base 2.slow (115hp, this day and age, seriously?) and even the 2.5l are not.
The 2011 A3 TDI, the closest luxury brand 5 door I can think of, starts at $31,125, so CT200H for $32k actually sounds about right. At those prices I'd take the diesel, and still get a $750 credit to boot, I think.
The A3 TDI can get to 60 mph in less than 7 seconds too, can't it? And has a top speed MUCH higher than the 96 mph the Lexus Prius - um, I mean CT200H - is limited to.
The A3 TDI is a proper luxury performance car, the CT200 is a baubled-up Prius. Big difference. The CT200 should be at least $5000 less than the A3 TDI IMO.
As for Toyota's plans to add turbos and DI to its engines in the next few years, I wish them much luck, but am sad at the same time because they used to be the innovators among non-premium brands many years ago, up to and including the introduction of HSD, but with turbos and DI they will be strictly the followers....at least they will still be ahead of Honda, which is stubbornly sticking to its inferior (mileage-wise) hybrid system.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota and Honda have a reputation for drivetrain reliability and longevity. I'm not sure all the kinks are out of DI yet. You read more than a few complaints about pinging and the like in some of these recent GM DI engined vehicles. If I bought a new Equinox or LaCrosse, I'd be pretty PO'd about needing to use premium fuel to get rid of engine pinging, or to get optimal fuel economy. I've also seen where there may be potential issues with engine crud build up in DI. Personally, I think I'll wait with turbo and DI until Honda and Toyota are comfortable with the technologies. Innovation is nice, but being a guinea pig isn't.
that's kind of a strange post. 20 years ago, H and T engines were better than most for reliability. Now, I would like to see validation of that. Hyundai is willing back up their DI engines for 100k, so I don't put much credence into early DI downside characteristics still being a problem. If I bought an Equinox or Lacrosse and premium fuel was a major issue, why would I buy it? Toyota has put a bunch of eggs in the HSD basket with good results, but probably at the expense of other engine programs. Honda has been sitting on VTEC way too long. Here is a link to Ford's Ecoboost torture test
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I dont know what would be an equal comparison to the out going Jetta, but $22K window sticker for an '08 Wolfsburg Edition (I paid less) and it has everything, (way too much to list)
I drove a 2.5 and it seemed ok, then I drove the 2.0T WOW!
I agree about the 2.slow but VW wants to be able to advertise the price and mpg the 2.slow will give you in the new Jetta.
Saw em at the dealer and the only thing I like about Jetta VI is it looks like an Audi from the rear.
"that's kind of a strange post. 20 years ago, H and T engines were better than most for reliability. Now, I would like to see validation of that."
Cars are getting close, but look at CU and you only need to go back around 5 yrs to see a difference. I guess a few more years will tell. But my point was that T and H usually test things out thoroughly before introducing them here.
"Hyundai is willing back up their DI engines for 100k, so I don't put much credence into early DI downside characteristics still being a problem."
Read the fine print. Unless something changed recently that Hyundai warranty only covers the original owner and is not transferable. Certainly improves their odds and lowers their risk since new car buyers seldom keep their vehicles any where near that long.
"If I bought an Equinox or Lacrosse and premium fuel was a major issue, why would I buy it?"
The point is that the cars aren't advertised requiring premium, but apparently some owners have to shell out 15 cents or more a gallon for the more expensive gas to stop engine pinging. That's flat out unacceptable.
"Here is a link to Ford's Ecoboost"
That may be interesting. Turbos used to wear engines out faster, but Europe has had some success with turbo diesels. I'm not sure the price premium will be worth it and am concerned about why this Ecoboost cannot be put on AWD versions. I'll wait and see on this one until its been out awhile. Testing can help improve products, but if it revealed all problems then the Boeing Dreamliner would be in service already.
new car buyers seldom keep their vehicles any where near that long.
That's been changing over the years and the years of ownership keep getting longer. Looks like 5 years is the norm now and there's lots of people financing that long. (news-journalonline.com)
So that's 60 to 75,000 miles a new owner can be expected to put on a new car. Edmunds uses 15,000 a year as the norm, but I think 12,000 is more typical.
I think most new car warranties are still just 3/36, but there are lots of 5/60 ones out there, at least on the powertrain. I remember the 7/70 warranty being a factor in buying an '89 Voyager new since I didn't trust the transmission. (The tranny was fine, but I had three head gaskets covered by that warranty).
The 10/100 powertrain has to be a big selling point for a lot of people, and not just the drive it forever types like me. If you have a bad commute, the warranty could come in handy and could be used up in 5 years (and the full warranty is for 5/60 so your AC is covered for longer than usual). If that's not enough, a Hyundai dealer will sell you an extended warranty out to 164,000 miles. (JM Family Enterprises of Southeast Toyota fame handles those extended warranties).
There's no warranty claims data available for Hyundai unfortunately. My bet is that it's close to the top 5 and better than VW. (Warranty Week). Interesting Autobild reader's award for 2010 too.
So I think the long warranty does help Hyundai win over some buyers who were shopping Toyotas.
You may be right. I saw something that pegged average ownership around 4-4.5 yrs now. I wonder if that will drop some as the economy improves and new products and innovations come out? I'd go with your 12K too, but mileage is a tricky beast because 12K in Chicago or Dallas is probably a lot tougher than 12K in Des Moines or Omaha.
I admire Hyundai. They have steadily improved product and quality, while using some of the smartest marketing in the business. I'm not sure they are a Toyota or Honda yet, but that may well change during the next few years. I'm betting Toyota raises the bar further in a few years. I think they read the wake up call.
Well Toyota has been putting DI in the Lexus models for years, so I don't think they are worried about the kinks in it. I think they figured before that they didn't have to compete with engine technology in the Toyota line and now they have been caught flat-footed.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Actually, Lexus uses a combination port/direct injection system. Port injection should take care of the valve buildup issues of early DI designs. Maybe they haven't figured out how to use DI stand alone, or at least not implemented it. BTW, the Ecoboost models of the Flex and Taurus are both AWD models.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
FWIW the wheelbases differ and they share no body panels. Powertrains are similar but the Lexus is tuned differently.
Also, Lexus trademarked the names CT300H and CT400H, so they may have something else up their sleeve.
Honda, which is stubbornly sticking to its inferior (mileage-wise) hybrid system.
I don't get their strategy. Give me a CR-Z Si sans batteries any day. Even with a tuned version of the Fit's engine that would be a hoot, and it would still get near 40mpg.
Gas content plays a big part here, and not all countries have the same guidelines. You wouldn't believe how much we pay extra for emission control in a modern vehicle, so that it can pass the tests on the gas in the mkt the car is sold in.
In Cda they used to have huge amts of MMT and other crap filler in the gas. Many years ago, our gas was cleaner than in the USA. Today, ours is better than it was, but I think is still inferior to the quality found in the US. Use of ethanol (10%) likely is why they can't jam us with as much MMT. Not sure about Europe standards, but they are always messing with things there too. Here it is getting so that you can't find gas that doesn't have that lowly 'fuel' content they call ethanol. What a rip it is. On components too..
Kovalainen said that a sticking throttle was the cause of the accident in his Twitter feed, though the video also looks like he simply got too close to the inside barrier.
To me it looks like he just turned in too early. The tail had been loose on the previous corner, though.
Hyundai is willing to "back up" their engines for 100k? If the warranty is NOT able to be transferred to another owner, then statistics show that the manufacturer will seldom have to worry about claims. If you remember, at one time Chrysler products had a lifetime powertrain warranty. That warranty didn't transfer either. I think we all know that no one in their right mind would ever expect long life from a Chrysler power train! It's all marketing. GM's power train warranty is 5years/100000 miles and transfers to a new owner at no charge.
The ecoboost engines are DI, but none of the others, as far as I can tell. Both mustang engines are still port injected, which is kind of scary. Toyota probably has tons of engine tech that just needs to be freed up from the bean counters, just like Ford has started. Funny thing, I only watched the videos after you comment, since you said they were good.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Well if that is true, then I'm sure you haven't been swayed by the Volt dancers, motherhood apple pie and Chevrolet, the mild hybrids, or flex fuel. Because that was all marketing, too.
Nah, you still wouldn't. You like GM luxo barge boats that float down the highway, Can't really see you liking torsion bar suspension over big old coils.
"Toyota Motor Corp. on Tuesday said it will recall 650,000 Prius gasoline-electric cars world-wide under its own safety campaign to repair a coolant pump defect."
I would, provided it was a Slant Six or a 318 V-8 mated to a Torqueflite!
My 1974 Dodge van 318 & Torqueflite went 107k miles before the transmission started slipping. It also used oil after I switched to synthetic shortly after I bought the van new. It was fine with dino oil up until that time. Then it used a quart every 600 miles for the whole time I owned it. I swore I would never use synthetic oil again. And did not until buying a 2005 VW TDI that required it. I always had good luck with Pennzoil multi grade. This last oil change on the Sequoia I went to MobilOne. Give em another chance to mess up an engine.
iluv is off chasing Ford Fiestas now and has given up on his dreams of an FT86, but it seems the rumor mill about the 4-door version of that car is heating up:
2014 Lexus IS - New and Future Cars Work has started on a new 4-door sedan based on the FT-86 platform.
Although it’s nearly a half decade away, we are hearing reports that the next-generation IS sedan will make its debut sometime in 2013. The reason, according to our sources, is that work has started on a new 4-door sedan based on the FT-86 platform. For those who are not familiar with the FT-86, it’s the concept car that made news at last year’s Tokyo Motor Show. As the spiritual successor to the old Levin AE-86, a car we called the Corolla coupe, the rear-wheel-drive FT-86 will make its debut in June 2012.
As for the Lexus IS, this car will be built atop a stretched version of the FT-86 chassis. Toyota boss Akio Toyoda is keen on spicing up Toyota’s image into one with a more powerful emphasis on sport, so we hear the next IS will look and perform sportier than the current model.
While the FT-86 sports car will be powered by Subaru’s EJ20 engine (2.0-liter flat-4), the IS will be powered by a 2.5-liter naturally aspirated 4-cylinder and/or a 3.6-liter flat-6. The 2014 Lexus IS F will continue with a high-powered V-8 that’ll make the luxury sedan a presence on the racetrack.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm beginning to have just an INKLING of a hope that just possibly, in ten years' time or so, there might actually be Toyotas for sale again that are fun and interesting, not to mention a little different from the same old schlock that all of the Big 6 are peddling these days.
I am particularly encouraged by this move back to RWD. I wonder if RWD will ever make it into the high volume lines like Camry etc, and I wonder if any of the other Big 6 automakers will follow suit with their volume models. Not sure which I am including in the 6th spot of the "Big 6": HyunKia or Chrysler. Chrysler's volume just keeps stagnating, while H/K's just keeps rising.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
We need to rename this thread to "Toyota on the mend for 2011?" :P
Based upon my perusal of the Toyota display at the LA Auto show last week, I would say they are NOT yet on the mend.
Lexus has little new or interesting anytime soon.
The Camry is getting old and the interior is cheaper than in the past. The *brand new* Sienna interior is cheaper than before. The current Corolla is boring and the new "prototype" that you couldn't open the doors on is still more boring than the current Civic or the new Elantra. The Prius is a good car but just had another big recall. The RAV4 -- you can now get one without a tire on the back if you buy the top end model with run-flats (!!!!!). Cough up $30K or so....
Toyota is going the way of the old GM in cheapening and letting their quality deteriorate. I do suspect they won't take 20 years to realize it, though - their management is not quite as dense as GM's was.
I have felt that Toyota would be smart to use it's large cash position and buy a controlling interest of Honda Motor Co. to incorporate that engineering of Honda where Toyota could use the help. In turn, this merger of sorts, would make a powerhouse of an auto company. I'm not certain how the Japanese gov't controls such acquisitions, but from a business standpoint both companies would benefit...
Comments
Off hand, this reminds me of Ford and the Pinto and Explorer/Firestone tire issues.
To think that all auto manufacturers DON'T do this is to lack having a good grasp on how modern corporations operate nowadays.
Its why they all have such large legal departments full of lawyers.
It has taken decades to regain many of the old Ford customers after those failures. If not for the Ford PU truck loyalists they may have ended up like GM and C. How long will it take Toyota to make up the losses?
That depends on how long toyota will keep hiding the evidence. The judge is keeping the suits in place. toyota tried to get them thrown out.
toyota's statement says the plaintiffs won't be able to prove the problem; toyota's statement does not say there IS NOT problem, just that they will never be able to prove it.
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2010/11/19/judge-not-inclined-to-toss-toyota-accelerati- on-suits-for-now/
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota came out swinging on Thursday, telling reporters on a web conference that driver error was a likely cause of many fatalities that have been tied to sudden acceleration.
For Toyota, blaming drivers is dicey from a public-relations perspective. A 1989 study of similar sudden-acceleration incidents at Audi AG, a unit of Volkswagen AG, blamed drivers. Audi was ultimately exonerated of building defective cars. But its sales and reputation took a huge hit.
It's class-action, so I'm sure there are cases with more merit than that, but some of the cases in the lawsuit are a joke.
You know what happens if you floor it at 70mph in a Tacoma?
Nothing.
Nothing happens. The suit alleges it went from 70 to 95 mph "in seconds". I'm not sure it could do it "in minutes". What is that year Tacoma's top speed? Can it even hit 95mph?
This is not to say some cases don't have merit - the pedals were defective and are being replaced, but they stalled for sure, so they should be held liable for those legitimate cases where injuries occured when the pedals could have been replaced.
But show me a Tacoma that can accelerate that fast and I'll show you a liar who is just trying to cash in on a lawsuit, and could possibly damage the case for others.
You are probably wrong on that. Even a lowly Prius will top 100 MPH. Seconds is a rather wide open figure. Could be 2 seconds, 20 seconds or 200 seconds. If the Tacoma has as good of a V6 as my Nissan, I would say 95 MPH would be a snap. I know mine will scoot pretty fast from 65 to 85 MPH. It will still be in 4th gear at 85 MPH well under redline. Maybe it was an RTR Tacoma :shades:
Toyota will be showing up to the SEMA Show with a very special Tacoma pick-up truck called the X-Runner "Ready to Race" (RTR).At testings, the new RTR sprinted from 0 to 60 mph in 3.95 seconds, 3.85 seconds, and 3.76 seconds (three different tests) and ran the quarter mile in 12.01 seconds at 116.57 mph.
Most of the Tacoma track times I found are quarter mile under 16 seconds, just under 90 MPH. So probably about 8 seconds from 70 to 95 MPH would be average. Top speed listed at 120 MPH.
That is *extremely* optimistic.
From October 2004, C&D test of a V6 model (I'm not sure the model year in question, but this is the 3.4l V6):
Top-gear acceleration, 30-50 mph: 10.7
50-70 mph: 11.4
As you see the acceleration rates drop as speeds pickup. 70-90 would take a good 12-14 seconds or so, but this it 95mph, so it would be even longer.
Top speed is 112mph but it would take ages to get there.
The race concept you mentioned is irrelevant.
The irony is that you and many others here have joked repeatedly about how Toyota owners can't drive.
Now you change your tune just so you can go against Toyota. Convenient!
I think you will find those comments were aimed at Toyota when they try shuffling their problems off on the drivers. In reality I cannot believe that Toyota drivers are worse than GM drivers. That is what Toyota would have the courts and US believe. Unless the buyer has total blind allegiance to Toyota, I would think they would be upset. Most people consider themselves better than average drivers. And accidents always happen to the other guy.
Sat in the new Sienna yesterday at the auto show and was absolutely STUNNED at how much they have cheapened the interior vs the older model. I am going to go ahead and read the MT article you linked but right of fthe top of my head I would say this reaffirms why i stopped subscribing to that one - they never seem to have a clue what they are talking about.
Quite honestly, I find it hard to believe that anyone spending $25K or more (the price of most Siennas leaving the lots) would accept an interior this cheap and downright tacky for that kind of money. You only have to spend ONE MINUTE in an Odyssey to know which is the much better place to spend time.
Edit....OK I read it, and here's the crucial line:
Your winner, then, by the very slightest of margins, is the 2011 Toyota Sienna SE.
In fact the guy admits it was a dead heat between the Odyssey and the Sienna, and the Sienna wins because the guy voting it the best is the only one among them all with kids (and he has only one, not really a minivan candidate either).
The article is right about one thing though - Honda needs to get its head out of its keister (sp?) and put the 6-speed auto in ALL trim levels of the Ody.
Juice, I think you got the best Sienna there will be for a long time, maybe ever. You waited out the crappy 3.3L engine and the whole squeak-and-clunk period and got in after they fixed the noisy interior bits and put in the much better 3.5L engine, but before they ruined the interior for 2011. :sick:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I was there as well, and totally agree. Toyota interiors in general are cheaping out. The CRV is nicer than the RAV 4, the Ody is nicer than the Sienna, and the Accord is nicer than the Camry - for their respective interiors.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Where are those same people now?
C'mon, fintail, you're as guilty as anyone here....
They did cheapen the Sienna compared to my '07, though, check out the glove box.
Even the new top-of-the-line Grand Caravan is priced at $39,995 or something like that (at least the Pentastar V6 will be standard on lesser models).
Minivans as a segment have given up on trying to appeal as bargains and have instead joined the arms race to offer the most features.
You want a bargain? Kia put a great new engine in the Sedona and it starts at $25k, about $5 grand less than the norm.
I do think I got the "sweet spot". 2007 was the first year for the 2GR engine in the Sienna, which added a lot more power and actually tends to do slightly better in fuel economy.
That one article said complaints were down 80%, but how does that compare to Ford or Honda?
If Toyota performs the recalls and their SUA comlpaint rate is on par with the others, then the driver error argument is plausible.
If, after the recalls are done, their rate is still significantly higher than Ford (or the industry average), they got some 'splaining to do.
If their SUA complaint rates are lower than average, then it would seem like other manufacturers have to do some explaining.
Being down 80% is very significant though, you have to admit. That means that even if their complaint rate was FIVE TIMES what it was for Ford, down 80% means they'd now be EVEN with Ford.
If it's indeed even, then driver error is completely plausible. Like you said, Toyota drivers are no better or worse than Chevy (or Ford for that matter).
Yearning for its long-lost go-go mojo, Toyota studies Tesla
Earlier this fall, a video crew roamed the halls at Tesla Motors interviewing executives and documenting how the electric car start up does business.
Don't look for the production on the Discovery Channel. It's for internal use only -- at Toyota. At President Akio Toyoda's bequest, the video will be shown to his Japanese employees in an effort to motivate them to rekindle the entrepreneurial spirit he says they lost long ago.
......The motivational video is just one outgrowth of the May tie-up that saw Toyota investing $50 million in the California-based electric car manufacturer. But it highlights how Toyoda hopes the world's biggest carmaker can learn from one its smallest.
"The speedy decision making that's part of its makeup is what we want to absorb," Toyoda said of Tesla at a recent press event.
Toyoda cited Tesla's six-month turnaround in creating an all-electric version of its RAV4 small SUV as an example of Tesla's nimble business dynamics. The concept debut at last week's Los Angeles Auto Show and will go on sale in 2012
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101122/OEM01/311229964/-1
Forget mojo, how about just improving the interiors, the powertrains, and the fuel economy to the industry average? In two or three years, Toyota has fallen below average in most classes in which it sells vehicles.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Who needs a hybrid?
Toyota has 2 handicaps:
#1: they don't want to take the limelight away from their hybrids, which are sold at higher price levels. A 40+mpg Yaris would potentially cannibalize Prius sales.
#2: a Toyota always has to be less-than-Lexus. This is why they've saved Direct Injection tech for Lexus models, while Toyotas soldier on without it.
Hyundai has no such handicap. DI for the Sonata, and look at it steal sales away from...well, everyone. Sure you can get DI in a Passat CC or Regal...for $30 grand.
Anyone here want to bet against the Elantra?
Sure, 2 others hit the magic 40mpg mark, but with the Cruze it's only the Eco models, and those come with a small gas tank to save weight that hurts range, one of the big benefits of fuel efficiency in the first place. And the Fiesta is much smaller - the Elantra actually qualifies as a mid-sizer per the EPA, one class up from even the Focus.
Elantra will steal Corolla sales just like Sonata is stealing Camry sales.
Toyota has to respond, but like I said, they have to be very calculated, so as not to step on Lexus' toes and also not hurt their hybrid sales.
I like an underdog so it's fun so I'm having fun watching Hyundai crash the party and break all the rules.
Why make Toyotas suck just so that Lexus can look good by comparison? All the major automakers suffer from the same handicap, yet they mostly deal with it in better ways. Here's a thought: make Lexus cars better, so that Toyotas can move up below them!!!
By the way, I saw that ridiculous CT200H at the show, and the rep standing next to it said he expected it to start around $32K. They had an F-sport model there (is that the most absurd thing you have ever heard? It has a Prius powertrain - it can barely get to 60 mph in 10 seconds) which will be about $35K. The thing looked exactly like a Matrix, and with Prius guts, way too many hard shiny surfaces inside, and a $32K price tag I doubt they will sell any.
Toyota needs to realize they can't put all their eggs in the hybrid basket.
I saw a headline today that Toyota expects to launch 12 more hybrid models by MY 2012, and I say why? Just make your powertrains industry-leading (pretty much what Hyundai is doing across the board right now) and let fuel economy rise while emissions decrease naturally.
Is Toyota the only one still using a pathetically outdated 4-speed auto? I struggle to think of who else there might be still doing this. Chevy has a GIGANTIC sign at the auto show next to their 4-cylinder Equinox which shows that while the 'Nox gets 32 mpg highway, RAV4 makes only 28. Why? In the year 2010, Toyota is STILL using the 4-speed auto in the RAV they were using in 1996 when they launched that model. They could be making 32 highway too, if they had 6 speeds in there like Chevy does. And by the way, one sit in the Equinox for even a minute and it is clear the interior of that thing BLOWS AWAY the RAV4.
Corolla suffers from the same malady - the 1.8L model with the better fuel economy is still using a crappy 4-speed auto dating back to the 80s, and is rated at 34 mpg as a result. They had a newly restyled Corolla at the show on a spinning platform that was roped off, with no further information available, but if they have left the mechanicals untouched it won't matter how much lipstick they slap on that pig.....
Walking around the auto show, I seriously began to wonder why anyone would buy a new Toyota right now, except for the rock-bottom prices on promo deals. They are below average mechanically and their interiors are inferior to just about everyone with the POSSIBLE exception of the pre-bankruptcy Chrysler Group models - that Sebring is still pretty awful, for instance.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
GM needs a similar label. The Cruze gets a 1.4l turbo, right?
Here's a thought: make Lexus cars better, so that Toyotas can move up below them!!!
You may get your wish:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/22/report-toyota-plans-to-add-turbo-direct-injec- tion-to-most-of-l/
The 2011 A3 TDI, the closest luxury brand 5 door I can think of, starts at $31,125, so CT200H for $32k actually sounds about right. At those prices I'd take the diesel, and still get a $750 credit to boot, I think.
RAV4 is indeed cheap inside but that's par for the compact crossover class. You mentioned the CR-V earlier, but besides some rubberized door handles it has hard plastics and peach fuzz headliners, too. And I'm not sure the Equinox is any better, not to mention the last one I saw at the DC Auto Show stickered for $39 grand. For that entry-luxury price it still had a peach fuzz headliner and hard plastics everywhere. At least the engine has DI.
Corolla is in trouble when the 6 speed (auto or manual) Elantra arrives. They'd better hurry a powetrain upgrade.
Were you really that down on the Camry? My old college roommate just got a Camry hybrid and the interior was decent - more soft-touch plastics than most mid-size sedans. Nice, fabric headliner, too. Definitely a big step above the RAV4 or Corolla.
I think the 2.5 has DI also, same engine, no turbo, one more cylinder.
The 2011 Sonata is just $19,195, and that's a full-sizer, 2 classes up. I would cross-shop it with the similar CC (both have 4 door coupe styling).
The 2.5l was a major disappointment when it came out with just 150hp and now is merely below par for the displacement at 170hp. Competitors make more power without DI, don't ask me why.
The 2.0T is a good engine, but the base 2.slow (115hp, this day and age, seriously?) and even the 2.5l are not.
The A3 TDI can get to 60 mph in less than 7 seconds too, can't it? And has a top speed MUCH higher than the 96 mph the Lexus Prius - um, I mean CT200H - is limited to.
The A3 TDI is a proper luxury performance car, the CT200 is a baubled-up Prius. Big difference. The CT200 should be at least $5000 less than the A3 TDI IMO.
As for Toyota's plans to add turbos and DI to its engines in the next few years, I wish them much luck, but am sad at the same time because they used to be the innovators among non-premium brands many years ago, up to and including the introduction of HSD, but with turbos and DI they will be strictly the followers....at least they will still be ahead of Honda, which is stubbornly sticking to its inferior (mileage-wise) hybrid system.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
20 years ago, H and T engines were better than most for reliability.
Now, I would like to see validation of that.
Hyundai is willing back up their DI engines for 100k, so I don't put much credence into early DI downside characteristics still being a problem.
If I bought an Equinox or Lacrosse and premium fuel was a major issue, why would I buy it?
Toyota has put a bunch of eggs in the HSD basket with good results, but probably at the expense of other engine programs.
Honda has been sitting on VTEC way too long.
Here is a link to Ford's Ecoboost torture test
I drove a 2.5 and it seemed ok, then I drove the 2.0T WOW!
I agree about the 2.slow but VW wants to be able to advertise the price and mpg the 2.slow will give you in the new Jetta.
Saw em at the dealer and the only thing I like about Jetta VI is it looks like an Audi from the rear.
20 years ago, H and T engines were better than most for reliability.
Now, I would like to see validation of that."
Cars are getting close, but look at CU and you only need to go back around 5 yrs to see a difference. I guess a few more years will tell. But my point was that T and H usually test things out thoroughly before introducing them here.
"Hyundai is willing back up their DI engines for 100k, so I don't put much credence into early DI downside characteristics still being a problem."
Read the fine print. Unless something changed recently that Hyundai warranty only covers the original owner and is not transferable. Certainly improves their odds and lowers their risk since new car buyers seldom keep their vehicles any where near that long.
"If I bought an Equinox or Lacrosse and premium fuel was a major issue, why would I buy it?"
The point is that the cars aren't advertised requiring premium, but apparently some owners have to shell out 15 cents or more a gallon for the more expensive gas to stop engine pinging. That's flat out unacceptable.
"Here is a link to Ford's Ecoboost"
That may be interesting. Turbos used to wear engines out faster, but Europe has had some success with turbo diesels. I'm not sure the price premium will be worth it and am concerned about why this Ecoboost cannot be put on AWD versions. I'll wait and see on this one until its been out awhile. Testing can help improve products, but if it revealed all problems then the Boeing Dreamliner would be in service already.
That's been changing over the years and the years of ownership keep getting longer. Looks like 5 years is the norm now and there's lots of people financing that long. (news-journalonline.com)
So that's 60 to 75,000 miles a new owner can be expected to put on a new car. Edmunds uses 15,000 a year as the norm, but I think 12,000 is more typical.
I think most new car warranties are still just 3/36, but there are lots of 5/60 ones out there, at least on the powertrain. I remember the 7/70 warranty being a factor in buying an '89 Voyager new since I didn't trust the transmission. (The tranny was fine, but I had three head gaskets covered by that warranty).
The 10/100 powertrain has to be a big selling point for a lot of people, and not just the drive it forever types like me. If you have a bad commute, the warranty could come in handy and could be used up in 5 years (and the full warranty is for 5/60 so your AC is covered for longer than usual). If that's not enough, a Hyundai dealer will sell you an extended warranty out to 164,000 miles. (JM Family Enterprises of Southeast Toyota fame handles those extended warranties).
There's no warranty claims data available for Hyundai unfortunately. My bet is that it's close to the top 5 and better than VW. (Warranty Week). Interesting Autobild reader's award for 2010 too.
So I think the long warranty does help Hyundai win over some buyers who were shopping Toyotas.
I admire Hyundai. They have steadily improved product and quality, while using some of the smartest marketing in the business. I'm not sure they are a Toyota or Honda yet, but that may well change during the next few years. I'm betting Toyota raises the bar further in a few years. I think they read the wake up call.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
BTW, the Ecoboost models of the Flex and Taurus are both AWD models.
FWIW the wheelbases differ and they share no body panels. Powertrains are similar but the Lexus is tuned differently.
Also, Lexus trademarked the names CT300H and CT400H, so they may have something else up their sleeve.
Honda, which is stubbornly sticking to its inferior (mileage-wise) hybrid system.
I don't get their strategy. Give me a CR-Z Si sans batteries any day. Even with a tuned version of the Fit's engine that would be a hoot, and it would still get near 40mpg.
Correct, and that's helped them avoid the carbon build-up issues the Germans have had with DI.
Come to think of it, the Germans seem to be the ones struggling, ironically, with that and the HPFP issues.
BTW, I did read that EcoBoost torture test and that is flat-out amazing. Kudos to Ford.
I guess no complaints about carbon build-up on the EcoBoost 3.5l? Are they port/direct like Lexus, or DI only? Just curious.
Yes, also be prepared to prove oil changes etc on time. The deeper into that 10 years, the more polished their microscope lens is going to be.
In Cda they used to have huge amts of MMT and other crap filler in the gas. Many years ago, our gas was cleaner than in the USA. Today, ours is better than it was, but I think is still inferior to the quality found in the US. Use of ethanol (10%) likely is why they can't jam us with as much MMT. Not sure about Europe standards, but they are always messing with things there too. Here it is getting so that you can't find gas that doesn't have that lowly 'fuel' content they call ethanol. What a rip it is. On components too..
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/29/video-kovalainen-slides-out-of-control-audi-r- - 8-gt-at-roc/
Kovalainen said that a sticking throttle was the cause of the accident in his Twitter feed, though the video also looks like he simply got too close to the inside barrier.
To me it looks like he just turned in too early. The tail had been loose on the previous corner, though.
Both mustang engines are still port injected, which is kind of scary.
Toyota probably has tons of engine tech that just needs to be freed up from the bean counters, just like Ford has started.
Funny thing, I only watched the videos after you comment, since you said they were good.
Well if that is true, then I'm sure you haven't been swayed by the Volt dancers, motherhood apple pie and Chevrolet, the mild hybrids, or flex fuel. Because that was all marketing, too.
I would, provided it was a Slant Six or a 318 V-8 mated to a Torqueflite!
Toyota to Recall About 650,000 Prius Cars (Wall Street Journal)
My 1974 Dodge van 318 & Torqueflite went 107k miles before the transmission started slipping. It also used oil after I switched to synthetic shortly after I bought the van new. It was fine with dino oil up until that time. Then it used a quart every 600 miles for the whole time I owned it. I swore I would never use synthetic oil again. And did not until buying a 2005 VW TDI that required it. I always had good luck with Pennzoil multi grade. This last oil change on the Sequoia I went to MobilOne. Give em another chance to mess up an engine.
2014 Lexus IS - New and Future Cars
Work has started on a new 4-door sedan based on the FT-86 platform.
Although it’s nearly a half decade away, we are hearing reports that the next-generation IS sedan will make its debut sometime in 2013. The reason, according to our sources, is that work has started on a new 4-door sedan based on the FT-86 platform. For those who are not familiar with the FT-86, it’s the concept car that made news at last year’s Tokyo Motor Show. As the spiritual successor to the old Levin AE-86, a car we called the Corolla coupe, the rear-wheel-drive FT-86 will make its debut in June 2012.
As for the Lexus IS, this car will be built atop a stretched version of the FT-86 chassis. Toyota boss Akio Toyoda is keen on spicing up Toyota’s image into one with a more powerful emphasis on sport, so we hear the next IS will look and perform sportier than the current model.
While the FT-86 sports car will be powered by Subaru’s EJ20 engine (2.0-liter flat-4), the IS will be powered by a 2.5-liter naturally aspirated 4-cylinder and/or a 3.6-liter flat-6. The 2014 Lexus IS F will continue with a high-powered V-8 that’ll make the luxury sedan a presence on the racetrack.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/future-cars/2014-lexus-is
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm beginning to have just an INKLING of a hope that just possibly, in ten years' time or so, there might actually be Toyotas for sale again that are fun and interesting, not to mention a little different from the same old schlock that all of the Big 6 are peddling these days.
I am particularly encouraged by this move back to RWD. I wonder if RWD will ever make it into the high volume lines like Camry etc, and I wonder if any of the other Big 6 automakers will follow suit with their volume models. Not sure which I am including in the 6th spot of the "Big 6": HyunKia or Chrysler. Chrysler's volume just keeps stagnating, while H/K's just keeps rising.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Based upon my perusal of the Toyota display at the LA Auto show last week, I would say they are NOT yet on the mend.
Lexus has little new or interesting anytime soon.
The Camry is getting old and the interior is cheaper than in the past.
The *brand new* Sienna interior is cheaper than before.
The current Corolla is boring and the new "prototype" that you couldn't open the doors on is still more boring than the current Civic or the new Elantra.
The Prius is a good car but just had another big recall.
The RAV4 -- you can now get one without a tire on the back if you buy the top end model with run-flats (!!!!!). Cough up $30K or so....
Toyota is going the way of the old GM in cheapening and letting their quality deteriorate. I do suspect they won't take 20 years to realize it, though - their management is not quite as dense as GM's was.