I think Honda really missed with the current Accord (and Crosstour even more).
The Camry is so far ahead in YTD sales that Toyota can already claim the title of best selling car (it is 17.6k sales ahead). Camry actually stretched its lead by 1722 in November.
Also, the drop was from fleet sales, a quote from AN:
Compared with November 2009, Toyota's fleet sales fell 58 percent last month, while its retail sales were flat
Completely agree. I'm not normally a Camry guy but I think I'd take one over this Accord.
Of course next time out I'll be eying Mazda, Subaru and Hyundai - and I'll probably go down a size.
The youngest kids are now 9 and I really don't need a van anymore but the most economical thing will be to drive the van until it drops so that is likely what I'll do.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
We also have to remember that the Accord does for Honda what the Camry and the Avalon do for Yota. Honda doesn't have the money to come up with a car above the Accord so they made the current one larger to accomodate those buyers... with the intent of selling fezo and myself (who like the older, smaller, more nimble Accord genrations) into an Acura TSX which in 4-cylinder form is reminiscent of those older gen Accords. I think it was a smart move because I would think it would be more fiscally responsible to alienate the buyers who want a smaller car (which comes in at a slightly smaller price/profit margin) than to alienate the Avalon/Maxima buyers who would have to go elsewhere than the Honda store to get the size and space they want without spending 40 grand on an Acura TL.
I would also make the same argument for the Accord against the Fusion/Taurus, Altima/Maxima and even the few private sales for the Rentabu/Impala...
I also see the latest Mazda6 has grown in size and is softer than the wildly successful first gen model and I read the same criticisms about the new one not being as fun to drive. Mazda doesn't have a "9" above it anymore...
The Accord I rented for two weeks in Indiana was very noisy. The other complaint that the agency said was common with Honda was the key fob was near worthless locking and unlocking the doors. That experience turned me off on Honda again. I would have considered the Pilot, not now. Just drove a 2011 Subaru Outback. Way too noisy for my taste. Engine was racing to get up a long grade. Interior seemed nice enough. I don't think I will be selling my Sequoia for a smaller rig anytime soon.
I really don't follow BMW cars at all. The X5D is the only vehicle they have that interests me. If you are comparing the E class MB to the GS from Lexus, that is not even a contest. The E class outsells the ES and GS combined.
So the ES does not have a competitor from MB and Lexus does not have a competitor for the Sprinter. So kick both out and Mercedes beats Lexus by a mile in sales. I know you want to pick and choose to make Lexus look good. The truth is they sell a very limited number of TRUE Luxury vehicles. And when you look at world wide sales, where there are many more discriminating buyers than the deprived USA, Lexus ain't squat. Face the facts, US buyers are BIG suckers and ToyLex has done a good job in exploiting their ignorance.
Good point, that's true, Accord does sort of wear two hats.
Still, you'd think that would increase sales. It compares even more poorly to Camry+Avalon sales combined.
In fair weather I think my sedan choice might be a Sonata, but in snow country I'd take a Legacy GT for the AWD.
All those have gotten bigger, indeed. I sat in a Mazda6 while getting a free oil change on my Miata, though, and had to duck my head to get in the back seat. Form over function.
Malibu and Fusion are older products but aren't they due for redesigns soon? For me the weakest product in that segment, though, was the Chrysler Sebring, and I'm not sure the 200C does enough to change that much. I like the two-tone coffe/chocolate Malibu interior, but the Milan I test drove was a real snooze.
Hyundai did some leap-frogging, so I expect the next generation from all competitors to respond and make the segment more competitive.
Benz does quite well with the E-class. My neigbor has the previous generation and it's very classy.
The blocky new one is not an improvement, though. When was the last time you drove one? Just curious. RWD does not automatically mean sporty, though many make that assumption.
I test drove the E350 and while comfortable as your favorite couch, there is simply ZERO driver involvement. I hate to say it, but a Lexus ES owner would feel right at home. The E350 was big and lumbering, even laggy off the line it's so heavy. Loved the seats and the bright Navi screen, though.
I know you want to pick and choose to make Lexus look good
No sir, I'm using the numbers posted by Mercedes-Benz, no picking and choosing.
Remember, Mercedes is leasing the C-class at $339 per month, it's still up there prominently on their web site. That's cheaper than any Lexus. I'm sure you can lease a BMW 1-series for less than any Lexus as well. Who is dumping?
Let's look, for kicks. I'll use the same site for all brands to keep things consistent:
$397 for an IS is the cheapest I see. The ES is downright expensive at $437/month, and 4 star ALG residual means you know they have much less incentives on both.
$326 for BMW's economy car (128i). LOL Maybe next month they will be free! Heck, you can get a convertible (!) for less than the cheapest IS. Ridiculous.
Even the 3 series is $428 for starters, cheaper than an ES. Incentives are massive.
C300 being dumped at $327. That is $110 less than an ES, holy mackeral! Nothing down on both. That's Accord pricing.
The E350 is at least a reasonable $476 per month, less than $30 more than the smaller/cheaper Lexus ES.
Before you say the residuals are better than Lexus - that is not true - both Lexus have 4 star residuals from ALG, and the only car I mentioned that does better is the BMW 1 series.
The Germans are pouring on the incentives to move cars, and still getting their tails kicked.
BMW 128i $326 M-B C300 $327 Lexus IS $397 BMW 328i $428 Lexus ES $437 M-B E350 $476
Before you whine about the RX know that it's lease cost more than any of those, and remember the C- and E-classes account for half of Benz sales.
Lexus is WHOPPING them plain and simple, with a LOT less incentives.
Still, you'd think that would increase sales. It compares even more poorly to Camry+Avalon sales combined.
Toyota owners are a tought nut to crack. They are rabidly loyal and it takes a major disappointment to get them to defect. Unfortunately, much to the disappointment of some of the ahem... non-fans ... the media witch hunt and publics overraction to the latest gas pedal recalls hasn't done much to change their opinion either.
Much like Lemko, they know what they like and ain't nothin gonna change that. :P
Honestly, I think a lot of today's Lexus owners drove beater Toyota Tercels until 250k miles back in the 1980s. You'd have to pry their dead hands off their Lexus.
Cheapo C and E leases are also for base base cars with no leather, no gadgetry...apples to apples?
Maybe MB can afford to dump some aging cars in leases via its raging success in virtually every market...something Lexus can't claim.
Seems Lexus is also subsidizing leases on it's E-class competitor GS, too...
FTR, I've driven a E200 diesel, didn't seem any slower or less capable than a SuperCamry ES, for sure (which I have also driven). I'd be interested in performance specs E350 vs ES or GS...
Nope. I don't think that's ever been the case since the original LS430...
But... (and major one at that) what this does show is that Lexus is getting serious about jumping in the arena with the big boys, a la, the AMG's, M-series and S/RS series Audi's of the world and a few more years at it, they may become a legitimate contender.
Personally, I'd rather see Lexus compete by incorporating more "finesse" and refinement into their hi-po options rather than just dropping big power under the hood and calling it a day.
Cheapo C and E leases are also for base base cars with no leather, no gadgetry...apples to apples?
So what you're saying is we should exclude those cheapo base models? That skews the numbers even more towards Lexus' favor.
Point is even the cheapest Lexus leases are deep in to German entry luxury price territory once you account for incentives. Excluding them would be absurd.
You'd be surprised at how quick the ES350 is. That engine is a gem - 0-60 benchmark from a quick search is 6.4 seconds:
Benz quotes 6.5 for the E350 sedan, call it a tie. It splits the 7.1s and 6.1s from Benz for the C300 and C350, respectively.
Of course the ES is their comfy car, the IS the sporty one:
We timed a rear-drive IS 350 sedan at a speedy 5.5 seconds 0-60 mph
I think a lot of people developed a stereotype about Lexus a long time ago, and haven't driven one in a long while. I think people think early 90s Lexus ES300 when they think of the ES.
Skews what numbers? Standing up for a brand based on how it is leased is pretty strange. On the global market, there aren't many categories where Lexus wins.
There are more to performance numbers than straight line 0-60 acceleration. Lots of old muscle cars were pretty good in that realm too, but you didn't want to turn the steering wheel, hit the brakes, or go much faster.
Per Edmunds: "Just know that you may be disappointed if you expect this Lexus to give a BMW 3 Series sedan or an Infiniti G35 a run for its money when the going gets twisty."
I've driven a 07 ES. My mom would like it. Way too numb for me. On that note, the IS is not comfortable for taller drivers, weird thick pillars and small windows. I wanted to like the current generation as it is Lexus' most serious car, but it doesn't fit.
I seriously believe that the M3 dominates the segment due to the fact that the other 2 lack a proper manual. The V-series has a manual too but if it's anything like the one I drove a few years ago, it's about as enjoyable as rowing a rod thru a box of rocks... Gawd flippin aweful...
The S4 can also be had with a manual but I'm guessing it's reliability scares off potential M shoppers.
If Toyo wants to play with the big boys, I really believe a proper (well built, smooth with nice short throws) 3 pedal setup would pull cars like the IS-F into the ranks quickly even if it doesn't pack the punch of an AMG with it's 20 speed slushbox. :P
I meant skews the number of cars that qualify to be called "luxury".
You were saying they don't have leather and lack any frills - why exclude the well equipped Lexus ES while including a pleather BMW 128i?
Europe is a tough nut to crack because it's crowded already and the market doesn't really offer any growth. I'm sure Lexus would rather grow in, say, China.
There are more to performance numbers than straight line 0-60 acceleration
Yes, but you brought it up, so I looked up numbers, for reference.
I'm playing Devil's Advocate for Lexus, I'm not even a fan, but I feel like there is a huge bias against them. Especially car mags, editors are hyper-critical. When the IS-F got a properly stiff suspension, they say it's too stiff and ding it for that reason. That's silly - driven a BMW with run-flats recently? They are ALL stiff riding. Yet they praise BMW to no end. Ridiculous.
Lexus has work to do. The IS needs manual transmissions in more than just the base IS250. The GS should be truly sporty, lets see the next generation, and not just the F model.
Yet - despite all this criticism, Lexus is cleaning up. They sell more cars even with higher street prices here. America loves them. I can face that, even Gary acknowledges it (not the same as understanding, but at least he acknowledges ti). Question is, can you?
Toyota did lose some sales but mostly Scion (no margin) and fleets (even less margin).
I seriously believe that the M3 dominates the segment due to the fact that the other 2 lack a proper manual
I won't argue with that.
Lexus has a big opportunity with the new IS and GS. These are their two sportiest cars, or at least should be. Having the ES allows the IS to chase the sporty side of the segment, so let it.
I would not consider any sports car/sedan/whatever without a clutch pedal.
I'm playing Devil's Advocate for Lexus, I'm not even a fan, but I feel like there is a huge bias against them. Especially car mags, editors are hyper-critical.
I agree completely and I think the same extreme bias plays out with cars like the Camry too. All the people who diss the Camry and claim it's too vanilla have never driven the 270hp SE model that will literally leave everything in it's class, and the supposed "entry level" laughing stocks like the Regal GS in the dust. Also, the handling is on par if not better than most of the pack as well yet it somehow makes into the same classification as a wallowing, floatboat Buick...
Yet, the comparos always gotta throw in either an LE or and XLE with the softer suspension setup and (most of the time) the lamest, beigest color they can find, complete with hubcaps just to make sure they cement the Camrys image even when there are other Snuzers in the segment like the Rentibu or the last gen Hyundai Sonata (haven't checked out the new one yet).
The interior and appointments may lag the nearly everything in the segment, but the performance doesn't deserve the criticism it garners. Much like the Lexus stigma that it carries.
... Can't believe I'm sticking up for the Camry...
Doesn't what is pertinent here all depend on the actual price of the car? This was about sweetheart leases.
Is a gussied up Camry really more of a luxury car than a platform that has no luxury pretenses at all in the more developed world? Both seem to come from the same humble beginnings.
I never limited performance to short term straight line acceleration.
Everyone would like to grow in China, but how is Lexus faring there? I know the Chinese love their big German boats...as does the luxury market around the world. I saw more RR Ghosts in Berlin than new style LS. In fact, I saw zero of the latter. Not a single car. Cars that make a base S-class look exciting are a tough sell in some places.
I don't think Lexus needs a devils advocate. The brand is not failing. They make boatloads of money from non-enthusiasts in NA who like to claim their choice is about not appearing snooty, where in reality they like being coddled by dealers, and they don't like driving involvement. When was the last time you saw a modern IS at the track? It "chases" the sporty segment yet offers one very rare sporty model. And the GS barely exists now.
Simply making a suspension stiff doesn't solve any problems - Hyundai has been dealing with this one too. Stiff isn't all equal. IS-F is likely the only Lexus made right now that would be good to drive in any kind of spirited manner. Pretty limited.
When have I ever denied that America loves Lexus? Can you admit that most of the rest of the world does not share the same embrace? Being loved by America might be damning with faint praise.
All the people who diss the Camry and claim it's too vanilla have never driven the 270hp SE model
0-60 in 5.8 seconds, for what it's worth. Class leading.
And we all saw that it wasn't just competent in a straight line - look at comparisons in Motor Trend, cars.com, Motorweek, etc.
I bet 90% of the critics rented a 1995 Camry 4 cylinder auto one single time, then draw all the conclusions from that experience eons ago.
No, it's not a sports sedan, but it isn't meant to be. It's more comfortable and isolated than competitors, and to many Americans (arguably MOST since it is the best seller after all), those things matter more than lap times at a track you'll never even visit, much less drive on.
The Lexus doesn't share a single body panel and comes with a DI engine. Drive them and they have a different character as well.
China is a new market so we'll all have to sit back and see how it develops.
They make boatloads of money from non-enthusiasts in NA who like to claim their choice is about not appearing snooty, where in reality they like being coddled by dealers, and they don't like driving involvement
If I didn't know any better, I'd say YOU are being the snob, not Lexus owners. Touchee!
Who wrote the rule that luxury cars MUST go after enthusiasts? That would be stupid. True enthusiasts make up a tiny minority.
If a car was designed by enthusiasts only, you would end up with:
* turbo diesel * station wagon * manual transmission only * matte black paint * no stereo or A/C to save weight
How well do you think that would sell?
IS-F is likely the only Lexus made right now that would be good to drive in any kind of spirited manner
LF-A?
Being loved by America might be damning with faint praise
More snobbery? The US is the single biggest market in the world, how is that unimportant?
See, for me, you may as well be comfortable in a car that's really best at isolating you and covering the miles without fatigue. For that reason, I think a regular XLE makes more sense.
I don't have a Camry, but our Sienna is very comfy and quiet at speed. The kids watch a movie in the back, my wife naps, I have my GPS. We cover the miles in total serenity, and that's great. I didn't need (or even want) a sporty suspension.
Remember, Mercedes is leasing the C-class at $339 per month, it's still up there prominently on their web site. That's cheaper than any Lexus.
There could be a reason you have not explored. Leasing companies are in the business to make money. Leasing a car they feel will have some value at the end of the lease is smarter than one that will not be. The price you pay on a monthly basis is directly a projection of what that car will be worth at the end of the lease. The higher the monthly lease payment the less the vehicle is projected to be worth at the end. I think Lexus has a serious resale problem along with the whole Toyota line-up. That is why so many class action lawsuits by so-called loyal Toyota fans. I would bet not a single person in those 1000s of lawsuits were Toyota bashers before all the Wrecks, Recalls and bad Press.
Not true at all, in fact I mentioned the excellent 4-star ratings from Automotive Lease Guide for both the IS and ES, who sets residuals values for lease calculations.
Heck, the RX350 gets 5 stars! Not a single Mercedes manages that feat.
The Benz C-class matches the Lexus IS/ES 4-star rating, but the E-class earns a lousy 2-stars.
China, meanwhile, continues to steam ahead at a remarkable rate, marking milestone after milestone. According to JD Power, car sales there are forecast to steam ahead this year by 20% and reach 15.6 million units.
I will say that a weak spot in my wife's Camry XLE is that the seat isn't great for longer trips. After about two hours I need to get out and stretch or my my right leg is going numb and my butt's not so comfortable.
Having said that I noticed that starting to happen on the Ody so the common factor seems to be me....
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Same platform, one is based on the other. At least the lowline model randomly compared is its own beast.
I have seen more than one Lexusophile stating that they aren't badge snobs, and that's why they like the brand. I'd rather be an enthusiast snob. At least I'm not pretending to be something that I am not.
Why do some luxury brands absolutely decimate others in most markets, and those brands also tend to drive better?
Isn't the EU a larger market than the US? Along with China. The US is a lowest common denominator market in almost every good, not just cars.
When you succeed on a global basis in every segment you make, you can afford to subsidize an older model. Wait til the W204 is in its final year of production - you'll see a $299 lease somewhere, they did it with the W203.
The E's GS competitor scores barely better...of course, nobody buys them, they must sell in the dozens now.
Not enthusiast-snob, more euro-snob. You don't seem to like anything that comes out of Asia.
Enthusiasts would be in love with performance bargains like the EVO and STI, and you're not. Or the GT-R, LF-A. You always find something to nit-pick if it's Asian. Yet those are all fantastic automobiles.
Just an observation.
EU is a tough nut to crack. Mercedes had, what, a century's head start before Lexus? Literally.
I like my next door neighbor's E-class, several Benzes actually. I like the LF-A. And the CTS-V wagon. Country of origin is secondary.
I'm far more open-minded than you are. I appreciate specific cars, rather than worship a single make, as you seem to do.
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I guess I'm lucky in that the cars I appreciate I can also afford brand new. :P
even the entry level BMW's and Merc's around me are usually xi or 4matic models. It's hard to find a Sally Rand. for the volume sellers, considering MSRP, the C and the ES are close. The RX is about 10% higher, but the E starts near 50k. When considering leases, you have to look at how much needs to be paid up front, how long is the lease period, and how many miles are allowed. A lot of variables there. The monthly lease payment is possibly just the carrot on the end of the stick.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Enthusiasts would be in love with performance bargains like the EVO and STI, and you're not.
I am sure they would. The top performance EVO models are not sold in the USA. Only EU gets the good stuff. We get the dregs.
I think the car wars are similar to the coffee wars. Lexus is like McDonald's competing against Starbucks and kicking their tail. Yet is McD's coffee as good? Maybe so, Maybe not. I think in the top of the line LS they are pretty decent. The rest cannot compete with the Germans head to head and win. Comparing Lexus number one and two ES and RX is not possible because the German makers do not have models that dumbed down in the luxury categories. Sizzler sells lots of steaks, they don't compare to Ruth Chris. You want the Sizzler of the luxury world go for a Lexus.
I got to tell you, when I drive by or talk to one of my neighbors I think of you. He has 3 Explorers of different ages and an F150 PU. It is just he and his wife. His garage has two old 50s vintage cars covered with tarps and piled with stuff so you cannot tell what they are. One is a 1950s Pontiac, as you can see the emblem on the grill. I know you are on the other coast or I would wonder if You and he were one in the same. The whole street is retired people many that restore old cars.
I don't like numb . I don't like false pretenses. I don't like poor styling. It's that simple. Not an Asian car hatred, but it makes it tough to like a lot of newer Toyotas. However, there are old ones I like - old Supras, old pickups, 4-Runners and Landcruisers, Cressidas, etc. Heck, I even like the original SC... and don't mind older LS...but mainly because it has such blatant MB influence.
I like the GT-R and the IS-F. Not so much the Evo or WRX, too boy racer for me, I'm not getting any younger. I think the LS-F could be the next XJ-220, lots of price, but outdone by far cheaper yet more coveted cars.
Mercedes isn't a special brand created simply to be highline. Everywhere but NA, it's an everything brand. Impossible to compare what exists in NA with what is seen elsewhere.
I'd rather buy gently used, invest the savings, buy all the toys I like, travel as I want, than sink it all into a new car or buy a boring mass market car. How many times do I see myself in traffic? Almost never.
Last word on the loaner Accord. Right next to the power outlet that used to be called a cigarette lighter there is a little compartment under a cover that looks for all the world to be an ashtray except for one thing. On the lip at teh front of it are the words "not an ashtray." Seems to be rubber lined which I suppose would not go well with a hot ash.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I have an 07, which was better than the current Sienna, but more importantly had a real 2nd row middle seat, a full 20" wide. More comfortable than any Odyssey ever made, which has a half-sized seat (as does the 2011 Sienna, BTW).
And despite what the Ford fan says they've been proven to be the quietest van at highway speeds, then and now.
Perhaps he'd still rather have a rust-prone Windstar with an axle likely to break in half?
Why should I put any credibility into those numbers? I trust the manufacturer numbers. If you have leased from them for the terms they present, I will agree with you.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
What is numb to one person may be called isolated and quiet to another. Not everyone wants the same thing from their car.
As much as I like my Miata, the road noise can get a bit tiring, and the pot holes here in DC after the massive snow storms last year beat it up a lot (I'll try different tires soon). A friend who owns a Z3 traded it in after bending not one, not two, but THREE rims on the DC streets.
Suspensions are tuned more compliant here for good reason.
I don't like poor styling
As for styling, let's call that subjective, and like I said, the Sonata is a certified hit, so your opinion falls in the minority. Hyundai has become the best selling Asian brand in Europe as well, so even the europeans love it.
Let's also not forget all the european brands that failed here - Peugoet, Alfa (they're back to try again), Fiat (also back), etc. The US market is not as soft as you say.
If anything, Toyota sat on the sidelines and watched everything they did wrong, then delivered a home run (the original LS) for a price that freaked the Germans out. Do you think Mercedes quality would have improved as much were it not for competitive pressure from Lexus? No way, no how.
The Hyundai Genesis is perhaps a generation of refinement away from doing the same thing. I'm sure you'll disagree. It'll be fun to watch what happens, though.
Comments
The Camry is so far ahead in YTD sales that Toyota can already claim the title of best selling car (it is 17.6k sales ahead). Camry actually stretched its lead by 1722 in November.
Also, the drop was from fleet sales, a quote from AN:
Compared with November 2009, Toyota's fleet sales fell 58 percent last month, while its retail sales were flat
Of course next time out I'll be eying Mazda, Subaru and Hyundai - and I'll probably go down a size.
The youngest kids are now 9 and I really don't need a van anymore but the most economical thing will be to drive the van until it drops so that is likely what I'll do.
I would also make the same argument for the Accord against the Fusion/Taurus, Altima/Maxima and even the few private sales for the Rentabu/Impala...
I also see the latest Mazda6 has grown in size and is softer than the wildly successful first gen model and I read the same criticisms about the new one not being as fun to drive. Mazda doesn't have a "9" above it anymore...
The Accord I rented for two weeks in Indiana was very noisy. The other complaint that the agency said was common with Honda was the key fob was near worthless locking and unlocking the doors. That experience turned me off on Honda again. I would have considered the Pilot, not now. Just drove a 2011 Subaru Outback. Way too noisy for my taste. Engine was racing to get up a long grade. Interior seemed nice enough. I don't think I will be selling my Sequoia for a smaller rig anytime soon.
So the ES does not have a competitor from MB and Lexus does not have a competitor for the Sprinter. So kick both out and Mercedes beats Lexus by a mile in sales. I know you want to pick and choose to make Lexus look good. The truth is they sell a very limited number of TRUE Luxury vehicles. And when you look at world wide sales, where there are many more discriminating buyers than the deprived USA, Lexus ain't squat. Face the facts, US buyers are BIG suckers and ToyLex has done a good job in exploiting their ignorance.
Still, you'd think that would increase sales. It compares even more poorly to Camry+Avalon sales combined.
In fair weather I think my sedan choice might be a Sonata, but in snow country I'd take a Legacy GT for the AWD.
All those have gotten bigger, indeed. I sat in a Mazda6 while getting a free oil change on my Miata, though, and had to duck my head to get in the back seat. Form over function.
Malibu and Fusion are older products but aren't they due for redesigns soon? For me the weakest product in that segment, though, was the Chrysler Sebring, and I'm not sure the 200C does enough to change that much. I like the two-tone coffe/chocolate Malibu interior, but the Milan I test drove was a real snooze.
Hyundai did some leap-frogging, so I expect the next generation from all competitors to respond and make the segment more competitive.
The blocky new one is not an improvement, though. When was the last time you drove one? Just curious. RWD does not automatically mean sporty, though many make that assumption.
I test drove the E350 and while comfortable as your favorite couch, there is simply ZERO driver involvement. I hate to say it, but a Lexus ES owner would feel right at home. The E350 was big and lumbering, even laggy off the line it's so heavy. Loved the seats and the bright Navi screen, though.
I know you want to pick and choose to make Lexus look good
No sir, I'm using the numbers posted by Mercedes-Benz, no picking and choosing.
Remember, Mercedes is leasing the C-class at $339 per month, it's still up there prominently on their web site. That's cheaper than any Lexus. I'm sure you can lease a BMW 1-series for less than any Lexus as well. Who is dumping?
Let's look, for kicks. I'll use the same site for all brands to keep things consistent:
http://www.theleaseoutlet.com/Lexus-Lease-Specials.aspx
$397 for an IS is the cheapest I see. The ES is downright expensive at $437/month, and 4 star ALG residual means you know they have much less incentives on both.
http://www.theleaseoutlet.com/BMW-Lease-Specials.aspx
$326 for BMW's economy car (128i). LOL Maybe next month they will be free! Heck, you can get a convertible (!) for less than the cheapest IS. Ridiculous.
Even the 3 series is $428 for starters, cheaper than an ES. Incentives are massive.
Now Benz:
http://www.theleaseoutlet.com/Mercedes-Lease-Specials.aspx
C300 being dumped at $327. That is $110 less than an ES, holy mackeral! Nothing down on both. That's Accord pricing.
The E350 is at least a reasonable $476 per month, less than $30 more than the smaller/cheaper Lexus ES.
Before you say the residuals are better than Lexus - that is not true - both Lexus have 4 star residuals from ALG, and the only car I mentioned that does better is the BMW 1 series.
The Germans are pouring on the incentives to move cars, and still getting their tails kicked.
BMW 128i $326
M-B C300 $327
Lexus IS $397
BMW 328i $428
Lexus ES $437
M-B E350 $476
Before you whine about the RX know that it's lease cost more than any of those, and remember the C- and E-classes account for half of Benz sales.
Lexus is WHOPPING them plain and simple, with a LOT less incentives.
Given the looks and the spec...the Germans aren't shaking in their boots...
Toyota owners are a tought nut to crack. They are rabidly loyal and it takes a major disappointment to get them to defect. Unfortunately, much to the disappointment of some of the ahem... non-fans ... the media witch hunt and publics overraction to the latest gas pedal recalls hasn't done much to change their opinion either.
Much like Lemko, they know what they like and ain't nothin gonna change that. :P
I suspect Lexus will launch it when the next GS comes out.
Maybe MB can afford to dump some aging cars in leases via its raging success in virtually every market...something Lexus can't claim.
Seems Lexus is also subsidizing leases on it's E-class competitor GS, too...
FTR, I've driven a E200 diesel, didn't seem any slower or less capable than a SuperCamry ES, for sure (which I have also driven). I'd be interested in performance specs E350 vs ES or GS...
There's going to be another GS?
But... (and major one at that) what this does show is that Lexus is getting serious about jumping in the arena with the big boys, a la, the AMG's, M-series and S/RS series Audi's of the world and a few more years at it, they may become a legitimate contender.
Personally, I'd rather see Lexus compete by incorporating more "finesse" and refinement into their hi-po options rather than just dropping big power under the hood and calling it a day.
Like a V-series Cadillac for example...
So what you're saying is we should exclude those cheapo base models? That skews the numbers even more towards Lexus' favor.
Point is even the cheapest Lexus leases are deep in to German entry luxury price territory once you account for incentives. Excluding them would be absurd.
You'd be surprised at how quick the ES350 is. That engine is a gem - 0-60 benchmark from a quick search is 6.4 seconds:
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2010-lexus-es-350-1.htm
Benz quotes 6.5 for the E350 sedan, call it a tie. It splits the 7.1s and 6.1s from Benz for the C300 and C350, respectively.
Of course the ES is their comfy car, the IS the sporty one:
We timed a rear-drive IS 350 sedan at a speedy 5.5 seconds 0-60 mph
I think a lot of people developed a stereotype about Lexus a long time ago, and haven't driven one in a long while. I think people think early 90s Lexus ES300 when they think of the ES.
They have a long way to go yet. I can't count how outnumbered the IS-F is in my area compared to the C63 and M3, at least in my area. Has to be 10:1.
Of course, this GS is still speculation...I'd wager it will have a more serious powerplant if it does come to fruition.
There are more to performance numbers than straight line 0-60 acceleration. Lots of old muscle cars were pretty good in that realm too, but you didn't want to turn the steering wheel, hit the brakes, or go much faster.
Per Edmunds: "Just know that you may be disappointed if you expect this Lexus to give a BMW 3 Series sedan or an Infiniti G35 a run for its money when the going gets twisty."
I've driven a 07 ES. My mom would like it. Way too numb for me. On that note, the IS is not comfortable for taller drivers, weird thick pillars and small windows. I wanted to like the current generation as it is Lexus' most serious car, but it doesn't fit.
Why defend Lexus, the beigest of the beige?
The S4 can also be had with a manual but I'm guessing it's reliability scares off potential M shoppers.
If Toyo wants to play with the big boys, I really believe a proper (well built, smooth with nice short throws) 3 pedal setup would pull cars like the IS-F into the ranks quickly even if it doesn't pack the punch of an AMG with it's 20 speed slushbox. :P
You were saying they don't have leather and lack any frills - why exclude the well equipped Lexus ES while including a pleather BMW 128i?
Europe is a tough nut to crack because it's crowded already and the market doesn't really offer any growth. I'm sure Lexus would rather grow in, say, China.
There are more to performance numbers than straight line 0-60 acceleration
Yes, but you brought it up, so I looked up numbers, for reference.
I'm playing Devil's Advocate for Lexus, I'm not even a fan, but I feel like there is a huge bias against them. Especially car mags, editors are hyper-critical. When the IS-F got a properly stiff suspension, they say it's too stiff and ding it for that reason. That's silly - driven a BMW with run-flats recently? They are ALL stiff riding. Yet they praise BMW to no end. Ridiculous.
Lexus has work to do. The IS needs manual transmissions in more than just the base IS250. The GS should be truly sporty, lets see the next generation, and not just the F model.
Yet - despite all this criticism, Lexus is cleaning up. They sell more cars even with higher street prices here. America loves them. I can face that, even Gary acknowledges it (not the same as understanding, but at least he acknowledges ti). Question is, can you?
Toyota did lose some sales but mostly Scion (no margin) and fleets (even less margin).
I won't argue with that.
Lexus has a big opportunity with the new IS and GS. These are their two sportiest cars, or at least should be. Having the ES allows the IS to chase the sporty side of the segment, so let it.
I would not consider any sports car/sedan/whatever without a clutch pedal.
I agree completely and I think the same extreme bias plays out with cars like the Camry too. All the people who diss the Camry and claim it's too vanilla have never driven the 270hp SE model that will literally leave everything in it's class, and the supposed "entry level" laughing stocks like the Regal GS in the dust. Also, the handling is on par if not better than most of the pack as well yet it somehow makes into the same classification as a wallowing, floatboat Buick...
Yet, the comparos always gotta throw in either an LE or and XLE with the softer suspension setup and (most of the time) the lamest, beigest color they can find, complete with hubcaps just to make sure they cement the Camrys image even when there are other Snuzers in the segment like the Rentibu or the last gen Hyundai Sonata (haven't checked out the new one yet).
The interior and appointments may lag the nearly everything in the segment, but the performance doesn't deserve the criticism it garners. Much like the Lexus stigma that it carries.
... Can't believe I'm sticking up for the Camry...
Is a gussied up Camry really more of a luxury car than a platform that has no luxury pretenses at all in the more developed world? Both seem to come from the same humble beginnings.
I never limited performance to short term straight line acceleration.
Everyone would like to grow in China, but how is Lexus faring there? I know the Chinese love their big German boats...as does the luxury market around the world. I saw more RR Ghosts in Berlin than new style LS. In fact, I saw zero of the latter. Not a single car. Cars that make a base S-class look exciting are a tough sell in some places.
I don't think Lexus needs a devils advocate. The brand is not failing. They make boatloads of money from non-enthusiasts in NA who like to claim their choice is about not appearing snooty, where in reality they like being coddled by dealers, and they don't like driving involvement. When was the last time you saw a modern IS at the track? It "chases" the sporty segment yet offers one very rare sporty model. And the GS barely exists now.
Simply making a suspension stiff doesn't solve any problems - Hyundai has been dealing with this one too. Stiff isn't all equal. IS-F is likely the only Lexus made right now that would be good to drive in any kind of spirited manner. Pretty limited.
When have I ever denied that America loves Lexus? Can you admit that most of the rest of the world does not share the same embrace? Being loved by America might be damning with faint praise.
0-60 in 5.8 seconds, for what it's worth. Class leading.
And we all saw that it wasn't just competent in a straight line - look at comparisons in Motor Trend, cars.com, Motorweek, etc.
I bet 90% of the critics rented a 1995 Camry 4 cylinder auto one single time, then draw all the conclusions from that experience eons ago.
No, it's not a sports sedan, but it isn't meant to be. It's more comfortable and isolated than competitors, and to many Americans (arguably MOST since it is the best seller after all), those things matter more than lap times at a track you'll never even visit, much less drive on.
I also can't believe I'm defending a Camry. LOL
The Lexus doesn't share a single body panel and comes with a DI engine. Drive them and they have a different character as well.
China is a new market so we'll all have to sit back and see how it develops.
They make boatloads of money from non-enthusiasts in NA who like to claim their choice is about not appearing snooty, where in reality they like being coddled by dealers, and they don't like driving involvement
If I didn't know any better, I'd say YOU are being the snob, not Lexus owners. Touchee!
Who wrote the rule that luxury cars MUST go after enthusiasts? That would be stupid. True enthusiasts make up a tiny minority.
If a car was designed by enthusiasts only, you would end up with:
* turbo diesel
* station wagon
* manual transmission only
* matte black paint
* no stereo or A/C to save weight
How well do you think that would sell?
IS-F is likely the only Lexus made right now that would be good to drive in any kind of spirited manner
LF-A?
Being loved by America might be damning with faint praise
More snobbery? The US is the single biggest market in the world, how is that unimportant?
I could actually live fine in one of those SEs
See, for me, you may as well be comfortable in a car that's really best at isolating you and covering the miles without fatigue. For that reason, I think a regular XLE makes more sense.
I don't have a Camry, but our Sienna is very comfy and quiet at speed. The kids watch a movie in the back, my wife naps, I have my GPS. We cover the miles in total serenity, and that's great. I didn't need (or even want) a sporty suspension.
There's nothing wrong being comfortable.
Fortunately I have a fun car, too.
There could be a reason you have not explored. Leasing companies are in the business to make money. Leasing a car they feel will have some value at the end of the lease is smarter than one that will not be. The price you pay on a monthly basis is directly a projection of what that car will be worth at the end of the lease. The higher the monthly lease payment the less the vehicle is projected to be worth at the end. I think Lexus has a serious resale problem along with the whole Toyota line-up. That is why so many class action lawsuits by so-called loyal Toyota fans. I would bet not a single person in those 1000s of lawsuits were Toyota bashers before all the Wrecks, Recalls and bad Press.
I thought China passed US up last year and so far this year. I don't think ToyLex is in the top 3 sellers in China.
Heck, the RX350 gets 5 stars! Not a single Mercedes manages that feat.
The Benz C-class matches the Lexus IS/ES 4-star rating, but the E-class earns a lousy 2-stars.
https://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx
The reason for that C-class lease at $327 is simple: huge incentives.
Looks like they will pass the USA but only this year, per this article:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/04/autos/china_blows_up_past_us.fortune/index.htm
China, meanwhile, continues to steam ahead at a remarkable rate, marking milestone after milestone. According to JD Power, car sales there are forecast to steam ahead this year by 20% and reach 15.6 million units.
I will say that a weak spot in my wife's Camry XLE is that the seat isn't great for longer trips. After about two hours I need to get out and stretch or my my right leg is going numb and my butt's not so comfortable.
Having said that I noticed that starting to happen on the Ody so the common factor seems to be me....
I have seen more than one Lexusophile stating that they aren't badge snobs, and that's why they like the brand. I'd rather be an enthusiast snob. At least I'm not pretending to be something that I am not.
Why do some luxury brands absolutely decimate others in most markets, and those brands also tend to drive better?
Isn't the EU a larger market than the US? Along with China. The US is a lowest common denominator market in almost every good, not just cars.
The E's GS competitor scores barely better...of course, nobody buys them, they must sell in the dozens now.
Nothing is better for carrying lots of people very long distances. Nothing.
Of course it helps to rotate drivers and watch several DVDs. :shades:
Enthusiasts would be in love with performance bargains like the EVO and STI, and you're not. Or the GT-R, LF-A. You always find something to nit-pick if it's Asian. Yet those are all fantastic automobiles.
Just an observation.
EU is a tough nut to crack. Mercedes had, what, a century's head start before Lexus? Literally.
I like my next door neighbor's E-class, several Benzes actually. I like the LF-A. And the CTS-V wagon. Country of origin is secondary.
I'm far more open-minded than you are. I appreciate specific cars, rather than worship a single make, as you seem to do.
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I guess I'm lucky in that the cars I appreciate I can also afford brand new. :P
Nothing is better for carrying lots of people very long distances. Nothing.
They Odyssey interior is much nicer.
If you want quiet with a cheap interior, buy the Sienna.
If you want a quality interior with more noise, buy the Odyssey.
It's hard to find a Sally Rand.
for the volume sellers, considering MSRP, the C and the ES are close.
The RX is about 10% higher, but the E starts near 50k.
When considering leases, you have to look at how much needs to be paid up front, how long is the lease period, and how many miles are allowed.
A lot of variables there. The monthly lease payment is possibly just the carrot on the end of the stick.
I am sure they would. The top performance EVO models are not sold in the USA. Only EU gets the good stuff. We get the dregs.
I think the car wars are similar to the coffee wars. Lexus is like McDonald's competing against Starbucks and kicking their tail. Yet is McD's coffee as good? Maybe so, Maybe not. I think in the top of the line LS they are pretty decent. The rest cannot compete with the Germans head to head and win. Comparing Lexus number one and two ES and RX is not possible because the German makers do not have models that dumbed down in the luxury categories. Sizzler sells lots of steaks, they don't compare to Ruth Chris. You want the Sizzler of the luxury world go for a Lexus.
I like the GT-R and the IS-F. Not so much the Evo or WRX, too boy racer for me, I'm not getting any younger. I think the LS-F could be the next XJ-220, lots of price, but outdone by far cheaper yet more coveted cars.
Mercedes isn't a special brand created simply to be highline. Everywhere but NA, it's an everything brand. Impossible to compare what exists in NA with what is seen elsewhere.
I'd rather buy gently used, invest the savings, buy all the toys I like, travel as I want, than sink it all into a new car or buy a boring mass market car. How many times do I see myself in traffic? Almost never.
I have an 07, which was better than the current Sienna, but more importantly had a real 2nd row middle seat, a full 20" wide. More comfortable than any Odyssey ever made, which has a half-sized seat (as does the 2011 Sienna, BTW).
And despite what the Ford fan says they've been proven to be the quietest van at highway speeds, then and now.
Perhaps he'd still rather have a rust-prone Windstar with an axle likely to break in half?
That's why I used one site for all of them, terms were similar (zero down for all of the above).
It's funny that you can get a Bimmer or Benz for less than a Chevy Volt, with less money down to boot.
I trust the manufacturer numbers.
If you have leased from them for the terms they present, I will agree with you.
What is numb to one person may be called isolated and quiet to another. Not everyone wants the same thing from their car.
As much as I like my Miata, the road noise can get a bit tiring, and the pot holes here in DC after the massive snow storms last year beat it up a lot (I'll try different tires soon). A friend who owns a Z3 traded it in after bending not one, not two, but THREE rims on the DC streets.
Suspensions are tuned more compliant here for good reason.
I don't like poor styling
As for styling, let's call that subjective, and like I said, the Sonata is a certified hit, so your opinion falls in the minority. Hyundai has become the best selling Asian brand in Europe as well, so even the europeans love it.
Let's also not forget all the european brands that failed here - Peugoet, Alfa (they're back to try again), Fiat (also back), etc. The US market is not as soft as you say.
If anything, Toyota sat on the sidelines and watched everything they did wrong, then delivered a home run (the original LS) for a price that freaked the Germans out. Do you think Mercedes quality would have improved as much were it not for competitive pressure from Lexus? No way, no how.
The Hyundai Genesis is perhaps a generation of refinement away from doing the same thing. I'm sure you'll disagree. It'll be fun to watch what happens, though.