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Because of the new mindset I am not sure Scion will ever grow up and start a life on their own. More of how Toyota tries to show GM it can make a Saturn and then leaves it to swim on its own.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I can't tell you how many concept cars I have seen that never made it to market. In this economy I am not holding my breath. After all 35 years ago we were told they were working on pure EVs for everyone. The release date is a bit behind isn't it? And just what ever happened to my air car?
Did the great pumpkin show up for you this year?
Just to be clear, Scion may not be at its peak sales level ever, but sales are steady. There is no danger of the brand's sales falling through the floor like GM did to Saturn in the 90s/early 00s unless Toyota kills Scion on purpose.
The AE86 project is a joint project with new-subsidiary Subaru, and I have no doubt they will produce it, if only because its mechanicals will mostly be taken directly from existing JDM Subarus and because Subaru needs a car like this just as much as Toyota does. But that car is at least two years out, judging by the last reports I read.
PS Boaz: I bet we haven't seen the last of the MR2 name. It's just taking a little break. ;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What has been impacted is the pick-ups and the crossovers.
However, with October numbers now in, I will point out once again that of the Japanese Big 3, Toyota is down by far the most this year. This is true even though all 3 are now down. On the flip side, all 3 are doing better than the market overall.
And little Subaru, NOT one of the Japanese Big 3, continues to be one of only two automakers worldwide that is UP in sales for the year. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I agree they both need it. Scion is not dead but it is no longer hot. Article after article and reviews after review plus Totota USA is saying it and I just posted it. You could be right and they don't know what they are talking about but at least they admit they have made a mistake in reguards to Scion. Their words not mine. I just wonder if the economy will be positive enough to launch another car in 24 months in the US. yes they both need it, contrary to what some have said Subaru sales were down 12 percent in September and for a small company that hurts more than Toyota. So Scion sells are down and the image is tarnished. Subaru is down and they need a helping hand. I can accept that. I simply can't accept the rose colored glasses so many have when they say, the reports can't be true my neighborhood is flooded with Scions.
It takes only a few minutes to check on the number of cars Scion is down and to look up what the management says about it. I know where you are coming from, you hang on to the bitter end as you did in your support of the Echo even as it circled the drain. I remember the supporters or the Baja even as it fell on its grill from day one. We enthusiasts and a stubborn lot and will support what we like and throw mud at what we don't like no matter what the numbers say. That is what makes these forums so interesting. So do you think they will have a Hybrid MR-2 or will they try to release a sports car in this economy?
contrary to what some have said Subaru sales were down 12 percent in September
That was one of the best results of the entire market! They are up 2% for the year in a market that is down 15% overall! The domestics were off 30-50% for the month, the Japanese off around 25%, so Subaru down 12% is AWESOME given the trends all around it.
I think probably when Toyota talks about making a mistake with Scion, they don't mean a mistake in founding the brand, but rather a mistake in what they did with product after 2006. Will they be able to think outside the box (no pun intended :-P) long enough to rejuvenate this brand? I give them only 50/50 odds.
And a hybrid MR2? Yeah, I think it is likely, but not for quite a while. Supposedly this new 4-seat coupe for 2010 will have an available hybrid powertrain in addition to the Subaru-sourced 2-liter gas, and I suppose an MR2 arriving after that could use the same powertrain.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Me, I say it is a RWD coupe with decent fuel efficiency and a price under $20 grand. What's not to like? :-)
I believe Toyota and Subaru do have plans to work jointly on other projects in the future, and of course Subaru is already building Camrys for Toyota at its plant in Indiana, right alongside the Legacy/Outback line.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The sketches looked pretty good, sporty little car it will be.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That's actually not a bad plan come to think about it... Although Toyota's styling really won't catch anything on fire but it is more promising than what the Subaru has to offer recently.
Just out of curiosity though, rumor has it that the coupe will be using Subaru's H4 instead of Toyota's new 2.7L I4. How do these two engines stack up against each other?
louis: the H4 is Subaru's superb little 2.0 from Japan - they don't use it here. It should be more than enough for a coupe with a target weight of 2500 pounds or less.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Now this is getting exciting...
If the coupe is getting the EJ20X boxer with an AVCS twin-scroll turbo then that means the output will be 250 HP and 246 lb-ft of torque. I am going to be a little pessimistic here and assume the final weight to be around 2,750 lbs which means the power/torque to weight ratio will be something like 11 lbs/hp and 11.2 lbs/lb-ft.
For comparison purpose the IS350 has a power/torque to weight ratio of 11.6 lbs/hp and 12.8 lbs/lb-ft.
Which means with the Subaru 2.0L H4 the coupe will be guaranteed a 0-60 time of low 5 seconds and very tossible at around 2,700 lbs. Sounds like a winner to me, can anyone say: 370Z killer?
Although I still think that the US version might get the new Toyota 2.7L I4 at around 200hp for base model though.
Now could Subaru sell a turbo version for the Subaru brand? Sure it could. But the under-$20K Toyota version will be around a 150 hp, NA 2L engine.
This will be a small car, and they are hoping to go significantly under 2500 pounds for final curb weight. That has me thinking the new Toyota 2.7 is WAY overkill for this little car, and would needlessly reduce fuel economy. I think it would also add cost, so I'm kind of hoping they don't use that one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Wait do I hear the famous "yabut" goat about to darken the forum door? Toyota is not the only one because every year for at least ten years we read from the "experts' that Nissan was going send over a real Skyline? Opps we first got the G-35. Experts have even a shorter memory than the public. :P
Seems like they are doing fine.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
boaz: Toyota has in the past missed the specification targets for projects it was developing, but to my knowledge it has never missed a deadline once it officially announced when it was going to release something.
Anyway, it makes no difference in this case because the thing is already mostly done, as they relying heavily on existing platforms and powertrains....they might end up bringing it to market early, to compete head to head with Honda's CRX release late next year. Assuming Honda remains on time with that project, of course...
So the only question in my mind is the weight. Will they succeed in building a car that is at least as light as the 2000-2005 Celica, if not lighter? I suuure hope so, because I will be headed to the dealership in that case.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Source: Inside Line
Source: 7tune
Source: AUTOCAR
Source: Autoblog
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Remember, they released the statement that they don't want this coupe to cost anything over $18,000. That would be really smart.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Toyota , vying with General Motors for the title of the world's top automaker, cut its annual profit forecast by more than half after a terrible year so far. "
Toyota warns of 'unprecedented' crisis AFP
Before you feel too sorry for the American auto manufacturers losing Billions you might want to feel sorry for yourself. As we speak the Three are meeting with the government for their share of of a bail out. It looks like they are going to get the money so guess who is going to pay for it? Nissan, Toyota and Honda are not eligible even though they have factories in the US, because they are foreign owned. If we can bail out wall street more than likely they will use our taxes to bail out GM, Chrysler and Ford. ( I don't have to agree with it to see it happening.)
The U.S. market meltdown has upended Toyota's profit picture.
North America slumped to a $335.9 million operating loss in the April-September fiscal first half. Sales there slid 9.4 percent to 1.36 million vehicles in the period.
Operating LOSS in North America? Wow, that is probably unprecedented for Toyota.
Oh, and I'm not sure where the $1.3 billion profit figure came from, but this article says
Looking ahead, Toyota also slashed its global sales target. It now expects sales to fall 7.6 percent to 8.24 million units this fiscal year. It had earlier forecast 8.74 million vehicles.
Net income also will fall significantly, Toyota warned. The new outlook calls for a 68.0 percent drop to $5.34 billion for the year. That is less than half Toyota's earlier forecast for net income of $11.7 billion.
More significantly, that is down 2/3 from the normal figure of around $15 billion for annual profits at Toyota. Its fiscal year ends 3-31-09.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20081106/ANA02/811069985/1078
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If they ship the production of these vehicles to other countries rather than the US they avoid having to absorb a 20% currency penalty and they don't have to fight the headwinds our declining mature market. IOW the decline is intentional.
I used to have to do this, make these product allocation decisions based on currency and profitability, over and over again in my prior job in the steel industry. It's just part of international trade.
Now when the new RAV plant in Ont, and the new Prius plant in Miss, and the new Highlander line in Ind come on stream over the next 6-18 months then there will be no currency penalty to absorb.
Note that the Camry and Corolla are down only nominally in this market where 20% to 30% declines are the norm. Everything about Toyota in NA still revolve around the Camry and Corolla.
Sales of Scions this year are equal to sales of Scions last year! And..this in a market that is down 25% overall and getting weaker. In addition this in the face of a currency which imputes a 20% revenue penalty on every Scion sale made here.
Hot? No. Stable, Yes.
That's absolutely amazing, with the current economical situation.
And people are saying that Scion is in trouble?
:confuse:
I bet they are wondering why they bothered to Toyot-ize the xA to produce the new xD. They probably could have made as many sales just continuing to sell the old xA....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well... I don't think what you are saying is correct either.
Last year the new xB was already out and I believe the old xB (which some people are saying that was selling better than the new one) was still on sale through the first half of 2007. Instead of xD Scion has the xA, the tC remain unchanged from '07 - '08. With that established, let's see the calendar year to date Scion sales numbers:
Modle 2008 2007
xA 39 9,513
xB 41,265 38,207
tC 37,904 56,500
xD 25,294 7,398
Overall 104,502 111,618
Source: Club Lexus
The tC sales number is lacking because it is getting long in teeth but overall the Toyo-sized xD and xB really didn't do worse than their predecessors.
Scion in trouble? I still don't buy it.
xA, xB, tC and xD....totalling ~112,000 units
In 2008 through Oct there were 3 Scions sold ( OK 4 if you count the 39 xA's sold in Jan )..
xB, tC and xD....totalling ~104,000 units
IMO the xD is a much better vehicle than the xA. The xB lost some of it's appeal to the target audience but that audience is so fickle that it's hard to keep it in the sights.
The xD was released in August wasn't it?
My point was the only model year 2007 Scion EVER available was the tC. Yes, the '08 xD and xB were released during calendar 2007. I think we may have been talking at cross purposes.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In the past, Scion routinely notched 15,000 to 20,000 sales per month. But January sales were 7,782 units. In January 2006, Scion sold 10,701 vehicles with about 60 fewer dealers than it has now. The average sales per outlet during that period dropped from 11.9 to 8.1.i>
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080303/FREE/122766980/1023/- rss01&rssfeed=rss01
And this quote is from an unreliable sourse?
"Changeover fumbled
But Jim Lentz,u> president of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., concedes that Scion mishandled last year's model changeover.
Fearing that holdovers could harm the brand's hipness, Toyota stopped production of the old xA and xB in December 2006. But production of the vehicles had already been slowing, and dealers quickly ran dry of product. Meanwhile, the carryover tC coupe was starting to show its age.
The redesigned xB didn't reach showrooms until March, and the new xD didn't arrive until August.
"We underestimated the loss of momentum from the dark period for those two vehicles," said Lentz, who once ran the Scion brand. "The way Scion is marketed, it takes longer to get traction."
To farther help support the contention by both Toyota and Autoweek here is the chart confirming the sales slump over the last 13-16 months.
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080303/FREE/122766980/1023/- rss01&rssfeed=rss01&template=zoom&Site=CW&Date=20080303&Category=FREE&ArtNo=1227- 66980&Ref=V2&Profile=1023&CRED=
Once again the argument would be with Toyota and autoweek's contention that Scion was down in sales. Some are just reporting the information.
I think the updates to the xA to make it the xD were actually quite minor, except for its use of the Corolla engine and consequent drop in fuel economy.
The one that really got Toyot-ized and totally alienated its former customer base was the xB.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think it's too early to sound the death knell. The peak for Scion sales was 2006 when they reached 172,000 units
2005 .. 156K
2006 .. 172K
2007 .. 130K
2008 .. 120k-ish ??? in a horrible market.
Currency issues will have a much more significant effect on volume in 2009 IMO. Today 98 JY / US$.
The Scions are low-margin vehicles for everyone, manufacturer, dealer and seller. Given this low margin and the fact that all Scions are made in Japan it makes no sense to intentionally take a 10-20% currency penalty.
Again note that except for the very low priced Yaris and the Prius ALL the higher volume Toyo/Lexus vehicles made in Japan are down significantly. I read this as intentional on the part of the product planners there in redirecting the flow of products away from the US to other countries with stronger currencies.
2009 may be much more of the same with the current exchange rates.
I think you are reading a bit much into this situation. There is no evidence to support your read, and indeed Toyota's INCREASE in Yaris exports from Japan to meet the higher-than-expected demand here is evidence to the contrary, especially given that small cars like Yaris are low-margin units to begin with.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"I think you are reading a bit much into this situation. There is no evidence to support your read, and indeed Toyota's INCREASE in Yaris exports from Japan to meet the higher-than-expected demand here is evidence to the contrary, especially given that small cars like Yaris are low-margin units to begin with. "
Ahhh crap , I had actually agreed at great effort some posts back. Please note: We are in a Recession. All car sales suck. Including Toyota.
See last quarterly sales. Whether Yaris or Scion they doth bite the big one. Please validate your thesis.Tia.
For the Yaris it's not so much of a problem because the absolute loss due to currency valuations is small because the cost and the selling prices are small. 10% of a $10000 vehicle is somewhat acceptable on a limited basis. 10% on a $30000 vehicle starts to add up to big money....and then it's these very vehicles that are acting like anchors on the lots.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It always said to me, "I am the slowest selling Scion and I need to be replaced. But I least I am better than an echo." :P But for me it was way better looking than the old xB. And everything is better looking than the new xB. well maybe not a Honda Element.
I still think the Axtek was the ugliest thing produced in recent memory but you can't buy one new anymore so the Element wins.