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The article states that they forecast sales of 75,000 in the first year. They only needed 30K sales to break even. I guess that low number was because it was heavily based on the minivans of the time, so a lot of the tooling and R&D was already amortized?
FWIW, I don't think the current Camry is a hideous car, or anything. I don't like the swollen front-end, and the spot where the logo is makes me think of a rhino that had its tusk broken off. I also don't like the way the rear-end tapers and slopes. It's like they tried to ape the style of a late 40's car and a 1980-85 Seville at the same time, and the end result is a bunch of random surfaces where it's impossible to place any sort of badging and make it looks like it lines up with anything. That sculpting at the rear also robbed the car of about two cubic feet of trunk space, compared to the 2002-06 model...although I think shrinking trunks have been a trend lately, in midsized cars.
The S model of the Camry, IMO, is the best looking. That mesh grille looks a lot better than the horizontal affair, and helps tone down the bulbuosness of the front-end. I still probably wouldn't buy one. Not because I think the car is crap, or that I hate Toyota or anything. But I just don't find it appealing. I'm sure it's a decent car, though.
Here's the link to the Aztek fan club, complete with the "Aztek of the month" photo gallery! :-)
http://www.aztekfanclub.com/
Bottom line: Toyota is in the appliance business, a majority of American car buyers just want an appliance, and nobody cares what their fridge looks like really....styling isn't very important these days unless you are actually trying to sell a vehicle with styling as its top merit. Just look how the Thunderbird did the last time out, and that was a nice car to look at, I thought. Everything else about it was disappointing, but it looked nice. Makes a good float car for a parade. Remember the SSR pickup? Same deal.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Target was beating Wal-Mart for a while there by making their everyday appliances and household goods "stylish."
Of course, there's the attention getting look at me style like an Aztek that doesn't meet the manufacturer's expectations.
Welcome to the forum...
I don't know let me think a minute. Oh I get it, because cars aren't selling in the US? Because car sales are in the tank and anyone buying would be better than sitting on their hands not selling valuable cars to people who aren't buying? Maybe that would work? Because the US has supported Isreal and Japan hasn't? Because if they ever anger the US we migh not support them monitarily or militarily? Because we give them foreign aid and Japan doesn't?
And even if they didn't buy form us I wonder why they decided not to use the less expensive Honda? Could it be corruption and graft? Isn't it supposed to be a bid system? There could be a hundred reasons why this is just another political FUBAR. Of course they could get a great deal on the hundreds of Toyotas sitting on the 52 acres leased from LA/Long Beach Harbor that haven't moved since last year.
Most likely that is the real reason. They have become a very corrupt government. Will the change help? I doubt it. I have a close Jewish missionary friend we support in Israel. He claims his government is overly corrupt. Someone got a fat pile of cash to write the specs to fit the car. They pull it off with the GREEN image. Sadly we do not have anything that competes with the Prius to sell them. And there is a shortage of parts in the Ford hybrid supply chain.
It is strange the things we have in common. We also have friends doing mission work in that area. And their complaints are similar. Writing the specifications so narrow that only one vendor can meet them is typical of Chicago type of politics. They wouldn't have seen anything wrong with Blagoiavitch(sp).
But I do realize there is a glut of Prius here they could simply transfer to Isreal. Still considering all of the support we have given them you would think they would have given someone other than Yota a shot. But I wonder what interest some member of the government in Jerusalem has in their local yota dealership?
Toyota Says Market Has Room for 2010 Prius and New Honda Insight (AutoObserver)
Too ambitious?
High-tech features and luxury options will push the redesigned Toyota Prius into new territory--namely, $30,000-plus.
The 2010 Prius hybrid will offer options found on luxury cars: systems that automatically park the car in a parallel parking space and slow the vehicle when a crash is likely.
....The price for the 2010 Prius has not been announced, but the 2009 Prius has a base price of $22,720 including shipping. Earlier this year, Toyota cut the sticker price of a loaded 2009 Prius by $1,500, to $25,500.
Speaking about the high-tech and luxury options, (Toyota division general manager Bob) Carter says the redesigned 2010 Prius "does not represent a major departure from how we are positioned in the market today. We are adding features that were not available on the current car."
Current Prius owners sought those features, Carter said.
But when asked whether the sticker for a loaded 2010 Prius will top $30,000, Doug Coleman, product manager for the Prius, said, "I wouldn't doubt it."
Coleman adds that those cars probably will make up about 5 percent of total sales.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090302/CARNEWS/903029987
Oh, and they are expecting it to be rated 50 city/49 highway, up from 48/45 fopr the current model.
I think they are being a bit optimistic about the market for the Prius in this economic environment, even IF many owners of the current model are planning to upgrade once the new one is out.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
1223 is the standard model ... probably in the $23500 range
1225 is the first upgrade w/ the JBL + BT ... probably in the $24500 range
1227 is the second upgrade ... probably in the $26500 range, with
...leather,
...heated seats,
...3 door SKS,
...Plasmacluster
...auto dimming mirro + Homelink
1229 is the top model ... probably in the $27500 range, with
...17" Alloys
...LED headlamps
...Foglamps
There are no upgrade packages available initially on the 1223 model.
On models 1225 and 1227 one can add Navi or Navi + Solar Roof Package (SRP).
On model 1229 one can add Navi or the Advance Tech Package - but NOT the SRP.
The Prius Product Team has hinted at a very basic model as well... 1221?
Pricing has not been officially announced and prolly won't until April/May.
Today the EPA certified the new Gen 3 at 49 mpg Hwy / 50 mpg City / 50 mpg Combined. That's about a 7.5% over the current Gen 2 ratings.
1. Solara
2. FJ Cruiser
3. Sequoia or Land Cruiser (pick one)
4. SC430
5. GS460
6. Venza
How did these do in February...
2. FJ Cruiser ... I thought it was a better idea than it turned out ot be.
3. Sequoia or Land Cruiser (pick one) ... No need for the Cruiser. It has been a waste of time for years.
4. SC430 ... Not needed
5. GS460 .... Not needed
6. Venza ... looks good on TV.
But there must be at least one in here that will tell us they had the best year ever.
LC is some sort of halo model for the company that appears to have no interest at all in sport....and its sales WERE up quite a bit in percentage terms.
Ditto the Sequoia - big mondo truck that was up in sales quite a bit.
Other Toyota fora are rife with rumors that 4Runner and FJ will be combined for MY 2010, that one or both will go away entirely, and on and on it goes. Toyota's own announcements in the last year or two have made it seem there is little commitment to a gen II FJ, which was after all a one-off built only because it received such tremendously positive attention as a concept at the auto show. They should drop it, and I think that is what they intend.
The Solara convertible is still in the lineup only because of outcry from dealers or something - they would otherwise have had nothing to compete with Sebring. Not sure that that was so important, but it should be duly noted that Toyota DID mean to drop it.
AS for GS460, they still have illusions of competing with the 550i, and who knows WHAT they are thinking in continuing to make SC430s.
Venza is only about 4 months in at this point, and I am mildly curious to see if anyone will be interested in this latest in a long line of "segment busters" that are actually nothing more than a very slight variation on an overused theme, the theme in this case being "midsize crossovers are the greatest thing since apple pie".
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota reported seeking $2 billion loan from JBIC (MarketWatch)
Maybe they need the money to rent more ships?
"Faced with a shortage of storage space, Japanese car manufacturer Toyota is currently hiring a ship in the Swedish port of Malmo to store thousands of unsold cars the depressed EU market does not seem to want."
EU overflowing with unsold cars (EU Observer)
I don't see the LC ever leaving simply because it's an icon. It doesnt sell any units so it doesn't make a difference one way or another.
The BOF SUVs are on a death watch list depending on what the market wants to do. My own guess is that the 4Runner and Sequoia stay but on a very very reduced basis. The rest of the industry is killing off their midsized BOF SUVs so I'm guessing that there will still be a hardcore group that wants to take a vehicle into the desert. Wrangler and 4Runner.
There will always be a small group of buyers that want and need a large luxurious vehicle that has 4WD capabilities and that can tow. The Suburban and Sequoia survive.... all the rest die off.
The Venza is just too new but the styling is the best of all the recent Toyota's. I think that when the 4cyl versions begin to arrive and the market picks up again that it might be a quiet little hit.
I'll defer on the Lexus models but the two you mention seem to be very small niches. I don't think that in this new world there will be much room for niche vehicles to be produced.
Funny then that it DID make a difference in the 90s when the model that was down to 1000 units/year (higher than the current sales rate of the LC, I believe, and also higher than its sales rate at any time in the last 5 years or so) was deemed too low in sales to continue on offer in the States. The model? The Supra. It was in the cards then that Toyota would give up entirely on the sporty side of its portfolio, which after a little of this and a little of that over a decade or so is EXACTLY what they did.
Now they want Lexus buyers to believe that there is real sport to be found in the new models from that brand. It's no wonder few are buying that message.
As for Toyota's big new loan request for TFS, this article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7920379.stm
plays it down a bit more, giving the sense that they are just looking to leverage their good credit rating to get the most for their dollar in the car-financing biz:
Toyota Financial Services does 70% of its business in the US, where the credit crunch has made it harder to offer financing and the economic downturn has hit demand for vehicles.
General Motors' financing arm, GMAC, has been hit by losses and has received a $6bn bail-out from the US government.
Analysts said that the news did not mean that Toyota was in trouble.
"Toyota is not in danger. It's out to get the lowest price for funding that the strength of its credit can get," said Yasuaki Iwamoto, an analyst at Okasan Securities, told Reuters news agency.
Meanwhile, the news this morning is now saying that Toyota expects to report a loss of more than $4 billion, or was it $5 billion, next month at the close of its fiscal year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I thought the FJ was a move back to what off road yota's used to be. It just came at the wrong time. I liked it however. I agree they were simply Toyota Stubborn with the Solara.
Of all the offerings mentioned I did find the Venza interesting but once again I may agree it isn't the right time.
In the long run I think Toyota got to big to react as quickly as they needed to to avoid the double hit they are getting from this depression. Their market depends more on exports than most other companies and while the slump hurts domestics in the US it hurts Toyota in a lot of countries. When yesterdays stock market slide from wall street hits Asia and Europe by the end of today things could be even worse.
Storing unsold vehicles in ships and LA harbor is only putting off to tomorrow what they should have done today. Every day those cars sit anywhere they lose money. Yes that is what is happening to Chrysler as well. After six months of storage those cars will have to be discounted drastically. When that happens whatever new cars Toyota produces will have to compete with the greatly discounted old cars they are storing. The consumer simply will buy what is the best deal. So while they may recover some of the loss on all these stored cars they will be hurting future sales of new cars for at least three years.
That is one of the reasons I predict Toyota will take another big hit this year and the next. And I don't care how comparative we try to make it things will change drastically for car manufacturers. I believe the car market was pretty much like the housing market and the stock market. They over inflated the value to the point things just popped like the balloon it was. Whatever manufacturer comes out with a super afordable vehicle first with be the first to recover. And the first to start recovering will drive the industry. It won't matter if that company is domestic, Japanese or Chinese or Korean. IMHO.
Just to show you that it is not just Toyota...
The government agency said other Japanese automakers had made similar requests, though it declined to disclose their names.
You do know the Land Cruiser has a base price of 64k? You do know it weighs close to 6000 pounds and only get 15 MPG? Only comes with a 5.7 V-8? Are you sure you meant the Land Cruiser?
http://www.toyota.co.za/Models/viewrange.aspx?id=lc_station_wagon
Check out the swish ones they sell in East Africa (Kenya for instance):
http://www.toyotaea.com/landcruiser%20specs.cfm
And here's Tanzania, a more basic model than those rich folks up north! ;-)
http://www.toyotatz.com/new-vehicles/landcruiser-200/gx.html
Both Toyota and Land Rover forgot what the purpose of these trucks was supposed to be with the models they sell in the U.S. They are just mysterious mutants here.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If they make something other places that is more like the origional FJ then I know for surer they aren't sending what we call a LC over to Africa to replace the old Rovers. Yota has no excuse for offering a LC built like a LC should be built other places and then palming off this thing we get as a LC. They have the Lexus clone they don't need a Toyota and a Lexus of the same model. So in this economy something should get dropped.
But like gagrice said, a diesel that runs and looks like an old FJ and you have my interest.
There is no best, only better.
Where others have failed is an acceptance of certain level of quality / failure. After nearly 20 yrs of their products with more miles than nearly anyone herein I can state that the most recent products are far, far surperior to anything I owned in the 90s. The new products are more fuel efficient, more powerful, safer, roomier, quieter, simpler to service, more durable and IMHO better looking with far more features.....and the prices are LOWER in real dollar terms. Now there's a neat trick to pull off.
THAT is why customers continue to return year after year in ever-increasing numbers ( except this past year ) despite missteps that every company will make from time to time. The buying public sees the value.
This is also why Hyundai now is being taken very very seriously after its missteps in the 90s. The buying public is beginning to see the value. Ditto Ford.
How many truly good looking Toyotas have you owned? XKE Jag good looking? Corvette ZO6 good looking? Split Window Stingray good looking? BMW M3 good looking? I know good looking is a camparitive thing and a tool is a tool but some things are more artful than others.
Yota makes some good vehicles. But the blush is off of the rose and once you are at the top everyone pulls for your destruction. That is life at the top.
Can I say "enron" as an example that people are followers in too many cases rather than self-thinking people. They do as others have suggested from past experiences. There are too many problems posted in the Toyota discussions to be thinking that their experience with autos such as Camry are way better than with others vehicles. JDP numbers indicate the differences between cars is minimal in terms of defects and problems.
>despite missteps that every company will make from time to time.
And based on the discussions there the company doesn't fix the problems owners have other than with the time-tested "it's supposed to do that."
A major problem is the local dealer has the same arrogant attitude that a few salesmen take defending the car they sell. In this area the attitude is in the ads, the lies therein, and the salesmen's persona in the store. The addon fees are amazing and that people actually buy there is interesting baby seal behavior to me; the psychology is better than Freud.
The character of the two competitors from Japan changed in about 2003. The return to the mean always comes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I personally think that this new Venza is one of their best new looks beyond any other prior Toyota utility vehicle.
This IMO is the best looking Camry yet, ditto the best looking Corolla yet, the best Tacoma yet. The bigger vehicles I have not owned.
Agreed when on top, when the camera zooms in all blemishes become prominent. But the current lineup is far far superior to the lineup of the 90's across the board.
But despite normal issues that will definitely arise on any group of man-made products the buyers continue to return in ever-increasing numbers. Many of the 'problems' you allude to are issues of 'getting to know the new technology'. It does actually perform as designed. Some buyers may not like the way the product is designed and that's perfectly OK. The vast vast majority has no issues.
The rest of your rant is a local issue; ads, lies, attitude, addons, etc. All I can say is that the most successful stores, the ones growning the fastest, are growing at that speed simply because the buying public likes doing business there. The final test always is that the buyers see the value of exchanging their cash or payments for those vehicles. Nobody pulled the buyers out of their beds at night at gun point and forced them to buy. The buyers saw value and made a purchase. That's all that can be said.
Does that make it untrue?
>[stupid]
[baby seals][ lemmings] [kool aid drinkersI don't see any of those words in my post. I did use the baby seal because a salesman would understand that attitude toward customers.
> rant is a local issue; ads, lies, attitude, addons
My statement of my opinion is NOT a RANT. Please don't try to mischaracterize it.
And it is local. We agree. Some stores of all flavors do those things and others don't. Of course all stores are in business to make money. The statements by the manager in TV advertisements that are misleading is a local store problem, not a corporate problem. Of course that same manager chooses the salespeople and sets the expectations for them; the nut doesn't fall far from the tree. I compare the salesman who wouldn't let me just look (was I going to key the paint jobs or steal parts from the cars?) to another import store where I said I just wanted to browse the cars in the showroom and that I wasn't buying then or in the next few months and the salesman said he would be in a nearby office if I had any questions just to "please ask." But the difference sets a memory in the customer.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Maybe true but that is how it goes. When SUVs and light trucks made up 50 percent of the market that was the complaint non SUV and light Truck drivers made. When Ford F-series trucks out sold Toyota Camry and Honda Accord combined that was the complaint. In fact it may have been the F-series was the best selling line in the world in 05. When Toyota trucks couldn't crack the Ford/Chevy light truck strangle hold they blamed the customer. All the Nissan Truck did was take a few sales from Toyota. None of the complainers at that time were Detroiters they tended to be what ever you call foreign car buyers. When I was into Motorcycles they were called Limey bikes, Kraut bikes or rice burners. Simpler times. :P
Who knows what might have happened though if Tundra had had five normal pre-recession years to establish the full-size model it has become. They mighta' taken Dodge DOWN! ;-)
Now Nissan, the first one of the Japanese into the full-size market, is giving up. It will be interesting to see if Toyota does the same with the Tundra.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota has the luxury of having a strong balance sheet. The San Antonio plant certainly is a drag on current income and cash flow but it is brand new and very efficient. It's not like Toyota to react to shortterm influences leading to a panicy move to pull the plug on SA. We'll see. Let's revisit this in 2015 or 2020.
I do agree there will be fewer manufacturers when the smoke clears but Toyota never learned the formula of making full sized trucks any more than GM learned about small cars. The only hope that have is that the market dries up to the point they don't have as much compitition. And I know how you feel about not having compitition.
We have discussed before how many manufacturers we need to support the world consumption of vehicles and my guess is one or two per country is about the limit. Toyota should survive because they have perfected Vanilla. But anything with flavor is beyond them. And now they have gotten too big to respond as quickly as they once did. Toyota has become what GM once was. Honda seems to have more vision and responds with more determination in their product lines. Toyota was simply too proud to admit they missed the mark with the Tundra. Honda knew it wasn't in their DNA. IMO. :P
Buick and Jaguar shared first place for brands with the most-dependable vehicles in a study released today, ending Lexus's 14-year reign.
...Original owners of Buick and Jaguar models reported an average of 122 problems per 100 vehicles, four fewer than Lexus.
That would make Lexus' rate 126 problems per 100 cars. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't last year's rate 93 problems per 100 cars (this is the JDP 3-year reliability study)? That is a whopper of an increase in problems. Looks like someone was asleep at the wheel.....
It wasn't all bad news though, both Toyota and Lexus still made the top 5, and no other Japanese brands did.
Buick climbed from sixth place last year in market research firm J.D. Power and Associates' Vehicle Dependability Study, and Jaguar soared from 10th. They were followed by Lexus, Toyota and Mercury in the survey of owners of 3-year-old vehicles.
....Toyota Motor Corp. led all automakers with 10 segment-leading vehicles (Scion xA; Toyota Prius, Solara, Highlander, Sequoia, Tundra; and Lexus ES 330, LS 430, SC 430, GX 470). The LS 430 sedan had the fewest problems -- 61 -- reported per 100 vehicles.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090319/ANA05/903189970/1078-
(registration link)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
One of the strongest selling points that Japanese brand vehicles like Toyota and Honda have had going for them over the past decade or two has been the stronger resale values that have resulted from perceived higher quality. While increased depreciation doesn't matter much to people who buy their vehicles and keep them for more than a few years, it does hurt manufacturers.
....Now, like the rest of the industry, Toyota is starting to get hit by falling residuals on both cars and trucks. Some of that is surely due to the general market conditions right now, but some critics suggest that the fact that Toyota's residuals are falling faster than other companies could point to growing awareness of quality issues. At the end of 2008, an average three-year-old Toyota was worth 46.5% of its original value compared to 50.5% two years earlier. Like other brands, Toyota's trucks have been especially hard hit, dropping from over 60% to just 45.4%. In particular, Tundra residuals are on a big downturn, nosediving to 40.1% from 59.5% just one year earlier. Despite the drop, the Tundra's resale value remains higher than Chevrolet's Silverado (39.8%, down from 49.6%) and Ford's F-150 (32.2%, down from 45.6%), so while all is not lost, the race for residual supremacy is getting tighter. Thanks for the tip, Leonard!
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/16/toyotas-falling-residuals-has-more-owners-see- ing-red/
I think the author misses the bigger contributing factor: for more than 12 months now Toyota has been seriously pumping up the financial incentives to buy its vehicles. That is bound to hurt resale values in the long run, and it appears that hurt has begun. If only Toyota had not been so expansion-mad early this decade, a lot of problems could have been avoided, and I think the company would have been better off, even with the consequently lower sales volume.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
MR2 set to return as Prius coupé?
For a more realistic take on Old JD, see this.
Or read it here (without follow-up comments):
Is is that time again? The time when the MSM drinks copious amounts of Kool-Aid labeled J.D. Power Vehicle Dependability survey (VDS)? ...let’s consider a couple of salient facts... First, the differences between brands in J.D.’s VDS is insignificant. Buick has 122 problems per 100 vehicles while Lexus has (shock!) 126 problems per vehicle. In the real world, this doesn’t mean you’re less or more likely to experience a problem in YOUR Buick or YOUR Lexus.
That’s because, second, J.D.’s boyz don’t break out the problems by model—the stat represents an average of both “good” and “bad” models. Third, define “problems.” J.D.’s mob doesn’t define a problem as “an issue requiring a dealer’s attention.” As we all know, there are bits that break off and then there are wallet-bashing, time-soaking mechanical meltdowns. In J.D.’s eyes, it’s all much of a muchness. See you same time next year.
Oh, and what’s with Autoblog et al.’s Lexus bashing? The AP headline claims Lexus was “dethroned.” Yes, well, six of the top ten vehicles on the J.D. VDS are Toyotas. Put that in your statistical crack pipe and smoke it.
It's the annoying equivalent of those ads saying such-and-such is the "fastest growing" company/city/blog etc. A huge percent of nothing is still nothing.
AutoBlog is run by a kid named Josh who is an active member of both Cheersandgears.com and GMInsidenews. Most of their posters are from the same sites as well.