May be the floor mat is not only messing with the accelerator pedal, but also with the brake?
Could it bunch up behind the brake pedal and prevent full application of the brakes?
Once the premise is that a loose all season matt is moving forward enough to interfere with the controls, then the above suggestion may be possible.
I am not convinced my self, though.
However, please note that unless a line-lock has been installed, the brakes are applied to all four wheels. Thus, the driven wheels that are being spun during a burn out, are spinning with the brakes fully applied, suggesting that the engine torque is overcoming the brakes on the driven wheels at least. Also, burnouts are done is the lowest gears so the torque is multiplied.
I have done many crazy things in life, but I cannot see any sane person testing this hypothesis at speed on a public road.
Yep. And the car/truck sits right there in place. Tires spin, but car sits in place.
But again, that's at a standstill. Nobody's answered my question of what would happen if you're rollling along at 100+, and then decide to stomp on the gas and brakes at the same time. Whole different story, I'd imagine.
vcheng says, "However, even without full application of the brakes, one could easily overheat them to the point of combustion."
I don't think in less than two minutes you could do it though.
He was not mildly applying the brakes - you can bet he was STANDING on that brake.
The 911 call was 50 seconds long, so they were probably in trouble not too much before that. He said in the call that the brakes were not stopping the car - so by the time the 911 call was made, he was probably already burning tires.
Because if they throttle was stuck at full and they could not stop the car, they would not have gone crash-free for too awfully long on a busy SoCal freeway.
We don't know if he was standing on the brakes. The car, as is common today, had Brake Assist, so if he stood on the brakes and kept his foot there, Brake Assist would have automatically provided full braking power. Granted the car wouldn't slow down as fast as if the gas pedal weren't also jammed wide open, but modern brakes should always eventually bring the car to a stop.
My guess is he tried the brakes but didn't keep his foot on the pedal. Still, why didn't he shift into neutral? And there's still the option, presumably, of scraping along a Jersey barrier or guardrail to scrub off some speed.
I agree that he could have done several things to help alleviate the issue.
But in the heat of the moment, he must not have thought about any of them enough to implement the idea.
I think maybe because his wife and daughter were in the car, he was wanting to bring it to a wreck-free ending, and focused on that ending, to his detriment.
There must have been considerable panic involved in affecting the decisions made.
Very sad that 4 people had to die.
But remember: about 100-120 people a day in the USA die in car crashes. Many of them preventable.
This one might have been preventable too, but we just don't know.
Having experienced the onset of panic in potential drowning situations, I know what you mean. What got me through was deliberate quashing of the panicky feeling and forcing myself to think rationally. But I had more time than that unfortunate driver did.
It could be argued that most of the 100 or so deaths every day in car crashes could have been prevented. But to err is human, unfortunately.
guess you never did a burnout. the vehicle is not moving already, though. that does lead me to thinking that maybe the brakes were somewhat warn. i also have read that the brake fluid could lose effectiveness due to the heat.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
i'm thinking there was enough traffic that the driver had to concentrate on avoiding other slower moving vehicles. he may not have had the opportunity to check the pedal. that mat against the pedal may have been the first link in an unfortunate chain of events.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Wow, after all this time Toyota STILL has 30% of its global production capacity unused? Maybe this recession will prove to be a knock-out punch for Toyota.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Wow, after all this time Toyota STILL has 30% of its global production capacity unused? Maybe this recession will prove to be a knock-out punch for Toyota.
Nah, Toyota made the mistake of letting US Business school grads get too much influence - the same idiots that have brought down Wall Street several times over the past 20 years and destroyed D3. Now the Japanese are firming up control and leadership. Toyota will be fine. GM needs to be on guard to not get sucked in by MBA theorists again though. The answer isn't always a quantitative model or short term quarterly financial results.
Excerpts from an article in today's Detroit Free Press entitled "Toyota Leader Offers Apology"...
"In a stunning public admission, Akio Toyoda, president of Toyota Motor Corp. and grandson of the company's founder, apologized for the death of a California family in a crash that led the Japanese automaker to issue its largest U.S. recall and acknowledged Toyota is 'grasping for salvation' as it faces another annual loss.
Together, the remarks show how the world's largest and seemingly unstoppable automaker -- best known for its high quality -- has been humbled by the global economic crisis, as well as other challenges.
Toyota is recalling 3.8 million vehicles in the United States to remove floor mats, which might have jammed the accelerator in the fatal California accident. Federal safety officials are investigating.
He also lamented Toyota's challenges, saying, 'We have to listen to our customers and make better cars.'
And despite Toyota's record losses, which are expected to reach $5 billion this year,
The automaker also has maintained its 16.6% U.S. market share through September, although Toyota is discounting its vehicles more heavily to capture those sales.
Toyota’s new challenges: Stop decline, make profit
Toyota Motor Corp. has been through the phases of decline outlined by Jim Collins, author of ' How the Mighty Fail,' President Akio Toyoda said during a Friday speech in Tokyo.
Collins, who has gained a strong following among business leaders globally, talks about 'hubris born of success,' 'undisciplined pursuit of more' and 'denial of risk and peril.'
The automaker is one step away from 'capitulation to irrelevance or death,' Toyoda said, citing the study of how companies fail.
The automaker is faced with more challenges than ever before, and the company is clearly rattled.
'They see what happened to General Motors and they fear it could happen to them,' said Aaron Bragman, an industry analyst with IHS Global Insight in Troy.
Toyota has forecast a record loss of 450 billion yen ($5 billion) in its next fiscal year, ending next March. That’s on top of a loss of $4.4 billion in its last fiscal year.
The company will sell about 7.3 million vehicles this year, Toyoda said, down from 8.97 million in 2008.
Toyota’s sales plunged 28% in the first nine months of this year in the United States, traditionally its most profitable market.
The yen’s 7.4% rise against the dollar in the third quarter has raised the cost on vehicles produced in Japan for export.
'The yen is at a very severe level, and just increasing sales won’t make Toyota profitable,' Toyoda said.
The recent decision to shutter a Fremont, Calif., assembly plant next year, after General Motors Co. withdrew from the New United Motors Manufacturing Inc. joint venture, also marks Toyota’s first plant closing ever in the United States. It also has a new plant in Blue Springs, Miss., that is sitting idle.
Just this week, the company’s recall of 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles has blemished Toyota’s once-flawless image.
Last month, Toyota’s request to seal a U.S. lawsuit by a former in-house attorney, who claims the carmaker destroyed crash data, was denied by a judge who said the suit was already irreversibly public.
Toyoda said the 72-year old company, established by his grandfather Kiichiro Toyoda, will 'need to groom young people to be making cars for the next 100 years.' "
I think its way too early to say whether the recent events cited in this article are just temporary setbacks in Toyota's continuing climb as the worlds new #1 automaker, or the beginning or a long term reversal. What are your thoughts on this?
Even as they acknowledge the mistakes of shooting for increased market share and their fears of following in GM's footsteps, they are following a lot of pages in the GM playbook: continually cheapening the cars generation after generation (to the point where I feel they are a discredit to the Toyoda family name) discounting ever more deeply to keep those production lines churning, and making misstep after misstep that damages their reputation for ironclad reliability and above-average safety.
This driver's mat thing won't end up denting their rep much, I don't think, but the measures above will lead to falling resale of Toyota vehicles and decreasing numbers of repeat customers. The one thing they CAN count on is help from the Japanese government, and even other Japanese industries, if/once they hit the skids. We may witness the Toyota bailout in the next decade, similar to the GM bailout, especially if we fall into a second recession before 2020.
I used to think Toyota would be able to achieve a 20% market share in the U.S. without much trouble, but now I think it would have to be no more than 15% max, for them to operate with a comfortable profit margin and renew the rep they have had for the last 30 years. That will mean a lot more downsizing for them....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Maybe this recession will prove to be a knock-out punch for Toyota.
No company is too big to fail. Look at GM. Only surviving on tax dollars flushed down their corporate toilets. I wonder how many of their billions in reserve they have gone through this recession?
"Neither Biller nor his attorneys would comment Thursday on their case, which isn’t the only legal dispute involving Biller and Toyota. Toyota has filed to prevent the former company lawyer from disseminating disclosures on the website of the consulting group Biller opened after he left Toyota, believing it violates attorney-client privilege. Biller says the company is not even letting him list cases in which he was involved." --http://www.asq.org/qualitynews/qnt/execute/displaySetup?newsID=7022
>Last month, Toyota’s request to seal a U.S. lawsuit by a former in-house attorney, who claims the carmaker destroyed crash data, was denied by a judge who said the suit was already irreversibly public.
Toyota surely wouldn't try to quelch information like that, now would they?
The floor mat problem is an easy fix. The damage control challenge from the matter described in your message will be more challenging. My guess, though, is that Toyota is on top of it, so the consequences will probably be short-term. The negative publicity will still erode confidence in the Toyota and Lexus brands, however.
Sears is selling Toyota sewing machines right now for $100 off the usual $250 price. Of course all the wags on the bargain site are having a field day - no, it's not a Corolla model, and yes, you might be able to fix your floor mats with it.
Toyota started out making weaving looms (and still does) but I didn't know they made sewing machines. They used to have competition from Mercedes.
TOKYO -- Toyota Motor Corp. President Akio Toyoda said his money-losing automaker is “grasping for salvation” as it struggles to return to profit.
The world's largest car company was once targeting annual sales of 10 million vehicles but now expects sales of 7.3 million this year, down from 8.97 million in 2008, Toyoda said today at a news conference here.
Citing the five stages of corporate decline outlined by Jim Collins, author of How the Mighty Fall, the Toyota chief warned that his company has slumped to stage four, which Collins calls “grasping for salvation.”
“We are grasping for salvation,” Toyoda said, adding that the company already has spiraled through the first three stages: (1) hubris born of success, (2) undisciplined pursuit of more and (3) denial of risk and peril. His self-admonitions echoed the apologies commonly made by Japanese executives who take responsibility for financial turmoil or corporate scandal.
.......“Toyota has become too big and distant from its customers,” the grandson of the automaker's founder said as he prepares for a second-straight year of substantial financial and unit-sale decreases.
In the United States, Toyota's sales fell 13 percent in September from a year earlier as the market suffered a sharp letdown after the government-funded cash-for-clunkers program ran out. Total U.S. sales tumbled 23 percent. Toyota is down 28 percent for the year.
.......Presenting a further challenge, Toyota said this week it would recall 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus models in the United States -- its largest-ever recall -- because of a risk that a loose floor mat could force down the accelerator. The problem is suspected of causing at least one crash that killed four people.
“We would like to pay our deepest condolences for the loss of four precious lives,” Toyoda said. But because an investigation into the problem is still under way, he said, he could offer no further details about plans to address the issue.
“Customers who chose Toyota and Lexus cars because those brands are safe and secure are now beset with anxiety. I regret and apologize for this development,” said Toyoda, who took office in June.
.......Toyoda said he would welcome an unlikely extension of Japan's cash-for-clunkers program beyond March, while adding it would not be prudent to keep depending on the government for help.
This is HOW MANY mea culpas from Toyota senior brass in the last three years??!! It has to be at least three. Toyoda is new to his job, so maybe he is just the guy the company needs to turn it around, but there's no question Toyota is suffering the most of all the foreign automakers from the recession, and also that its rep has suffered the most in the last decade of any of the Japanese firms except maybe Mitsubishi (with the 0/0/0 fiasco) and Isuzu (which has given up and left the North American market entirely). :-(
It's time to see LESS talk and MORE action from Toyota.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Everyone seems to be bashing Toyota these days, maybe because of its sales success. How about Honda? You read all these posts about faulty transmissions and AWD differentials, as well as exploding AC compressors. These are big dollar things that don't seem that common elsewhere these days. Is Honda headed down Toyota's path as well?
Well unlike Toyota, Honda hasn't come along once or twice a year and apologized for ignoring the customer, then gone right on doing so.
The AC compressors don't really explode, right? They just fail and require replacement? And we are talking about a population WAY less than 0.01% of the total?
The faulty transmission problem seems to be fixed, and they did extend the warranty to 100K for the bad ones, perhaps not much comfort to the folks with 101,000 miles that had planned on keeping their cars forever.
You still get the impression (at least I do) that most of Honda's design choices are thoughtful and intentional, while it seems like these days those of Toyota often are not made with the customer in mind. Instead, they are done carelessly or with the sole intent of cost-cutting.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think the AC failure rate is probably more like 4% or more, but only for a few models. And I don't know about "exploding" but they do tend to fail a bit dramatically. Honda used to be real proactive about fixing these out of warranty but they cut way back on the out of warranty assistance in the last year (due to financial reasons?).
One member's compressor fell off when it failed but didn't wind up in traffic. No one claims to have been in a wreck because of one "blowing up."
Intuitively, given the large number of posts in a small population here, I'd guess the CRV AC failure rate is much greater than 4%. Just the descriptions sound like the AC was improperly engineered and may be a time bomb waiting to go off on CRV owners with a corresponding over 3 grand bill. If the failure rate really was that small, don't you think Honda would be more proactive on this issue? After all, the CRV is a relatively low volume vehicle isn't it?
I happen to own both Toyota and Honda products right now. My feeling is that both have cheapened up. I think Toyota has shown a lot of arrogance with things like unique tire sizes combined with cheapo OEM tires that don't hold up in total disregard for ownership costs. But my experience is that Honda seems to be poorly assembled with too many rattles, squeeks and other noise early on. The cars handle nicely, but start to get annoying to drive with all the excess noises. Maybe poor quality gaskets and sealing? That may be a reason why Acura can't build decent volume compared to Lexus? Toyota doesn't handle as well as Honda, but it doesn't handle poorly, its just more American boulevard engineered. Honda seems geared higher for a little more oomph, but Toyota is quieter and my experience has been noticeably better fuel economy. Bottom line, they both deserve to be blasted given their premium pricing, but for some reason people seem to go soft on Honda. I have to wonder if the situation was reversed with Honda way ahead in sales, if Toyota might get a free ride instead? If Ford and GM keep on track with their seemingly improving quality and products, both Toyota and Honda may get a rude wake up call in the next five years or so in sales volume and profitability. It wasn't really all that long ago that the Oldsmobile Cutlass and Chevy Impala/Caprice seemed invincible.
Could be - anything much over 6% failure rate would be a huge deal I think. Hondas have always "enjoyed" complaints of excessive road noise so perhaps little has changed there. Toyotas have the better road noise rep.
The AC compressors don't really explode, right? They just fail and require replacement? And we are talking about a population WAY less than 0.01% of the total?
"Explode" may be a figurative term, but when they do go, they send all sorts of shrapnel through the a/c system, and pretty much contaminate the whole thing. At least, that's what happened back in February when the compressor on my Intrepid, which is the same unit Honda uses, blew up. And when I looked under the hood, the area around the pulley sort of looked like there had been an internal explosion that had some of the pressure forced its way out.
Now in my case, it was totally my fault. The system had a slow leak in it, and I was trying to nurse it along until the spring to get it fixed. However, I was still running the defog/defroster, which runs the a/c compressor, and I guess the system went bone dry, lube and all, and just seized up.
My repair ended up running $1,301. Still, in my case I don't blame the Americans, the Germans (who owned Chrysler at the time my Intrepid was built) or the Japanese. This one was totally my fault. However, I have heard that some a/c systems are "smart" enough to shut off the compressor if they get too low on freon, and some are also designed so that if the compressor does fail, it won't contaminate the whole system.
Could be - anything much over 6% failure rate would be a huge deal I think.
Well, a 5-9% failure rate is still considered "average" for Consumer Reports' standards.
Hondas have always "enjoyed" complaints of excessive road noise so perhaps little has changed there. Toyotas have the better road noise rep.
I wonder if that's simply because Hondas tend to be designed to handle and feel a bit more sporty, while Toyota tries to isolate you more from the road, more like an old Buick?
Last year, we reported that Toyota and Subaru were collaborating to develop a lightweight, rear-wheel-drive coupe. We were excited.
And now our excitement has reached the heady level of In A Bit of A Tizz, because here it is: the Toyota FT-86, set to debut at the Tokyo motor show later this month.
I wonder if that's simply because Hondas tend to be designed to handle and feel a bit more sporty, while Toyota tries to isolate you more from the road, more like an old Buick?
Yes, that's it exactly, and for anyone who enjoys driving even a little bit, there is a noticeable difference between driving a Camry and an Accord, even now with the Accord so big. The score is Honda 1, Toyota 0.
As for the new Toyota coupe, I don't understand why they are showing it at such an early auto show, considering it won't be in production until the end of 2011. The car looks exciting, should be good with the 2 liter Subaru boxer under the hood, but price has crept up a lot since this thing was first proposed, with the chief Toyota engineer on the project now saying that $30K must be its price ceiling. I hope they offer NA and turbo, and the 200 hp NA falls nearer to $20K than $30K in price.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Warranty Week says that the overall warranty claims rate for Honda is 1.4%.
They get their numbers from the companies' financial sheets so I think they're pretty good estimates.
You do hear a lot about those exploding AC compressors but 9% seems a little high, even for a specific component. That's almost one out of ten - I think people would be camping outside the dealers if the failure rate was that high. I could believe 5 or 6% - it's an interesting question and I'd love to see the actual numbers collected from the service departments.
Toyota's warranty claims rate is 1.8% (as is Ford).
I don't know about the NVH claims - some say that Toyota spends more on soundproofing than Honda.
You do hear a lot about those exploding AC compressors but 9% seems a little high, even for a specific component. That's almost one out of ten - I think people would be camping outside the dealers if the failure rate was that high. I could believe 5 or 6% - it's an interesting question and I'd love to see the actual numbers collected from the service departments.
Plus, when you think about it, those CR ratings are only for one specific year in time, not over the life of the car. So, if you have an 11 year old car, and the reported failure rate was 9% of them every year, then there's an awfully good chance that after 11 years, just about all of them have failed at some point in their life. Some of them might have failed more than once.
I wonder if that's simply because Hondas tend to be designed to handle and feel a bit more sporty, while Toyota tries to isolate you more from the road, more like an old Buick?
To a large degree that's true, but you can quiet down the noise on some Hondas just by getting different tires. The OEM Michelins that came on our 00 Accord were designed with tread wear as the number one concern. When it came time to replace I did the old Tire Rack selector and said #1 performance #2 comfort and #3 tread wear. This landed me in Dunlop A6s which were way quiter and more responsive.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
that Honda and Toyota (and to be fair, Ford too) haven't stolen my tax money like GM & Chrysler have (multiple times in Chrysler's case).
As long as they don't USE my money to fund their expenses, I don't care what they do or how much money they lose.
But when companies start losing MY money, and give themselves bonuses when they win or profit, and send me the bill when they lose or go bankrupt, I have a problem with that. As far as I'm concerned, all of the employees of all the bailedout companies should have to return all bonuses issued in the last 10 years as a BACK TAX.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Funny you should mention that. My coworker has a 2004 Honda Accord that had Michelins as the OEM tires. He referred to them as "Screaming Mimis" as the tires would howl every time he took a sharp turn or a tight curve. He has since replaced them with Goodyear Eagles and the problem disappeared.
Interesting to know but I wonder if the same would happen in the Lexus ES350. It is not the same powertrain at all. It doesn't surprise me that the Camry Hybrid works this way. I can't understand why any vehicle with an electronic throttle could not work this way (maybe they do, I don't know).
Toyota faces possible recall for frame corrosion on 2000-2001 Tundras
Toyota may be faced with another recall a week after its largest U.S. recall in company history.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Tuesday said it would investigate frame corrosion on 2000 and 2001 model year Tundra pickups. An estimated 218,000 units are involved.
NHTSA said it has received 20 complaints--15 of them alleging that the underbody-mounted spare tire separated from the rear cross member. The other five complaints allege damaged brake lines due to corrosion on the driver's side rear cross member.
Brian Lyons, a spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc., said he is not surprised at NHTSA's investigation.
“We've been investigating this for a little bit of time,” he said. “We know there are some complaints out there. We have repurchased some vehicles to aid in our investigation.”
.....Toyota faced a similar frame-rust problem last year involving about 750,000 Tacoma pickups.
In March 2008, the company agreed to buy back 1995 to 2000 model year Tacomas at 150 percent of the high Kelly Blue Book value.
Then in November 2008, the company issued a recall on 2001 to 2004 model year Tacomas. If there was no rust, Toyota automatically extended the warranty to 15 years with unlimited mileage. If there was rust, the frames were replaced at no cost to the consumer.
Lyons did not say why the company did not issue a recall for the Tundra at the same time as the Tacoma.
I believe it was gagrice that has mentioned the Tacoma rust problems here in the past. Clearly the problem extended to Tundras as well. If a whole decade of Tacomas was affected by this problem, it begs the question why nothing was done about this much sooner. Are the 2005+ models any better, or will they be recalled in the next few years as well?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm sorry, but the CHP officer is directly and soley liable for his own death.
If you don't know better than to turn the key/ignition off or put it in neutral when the gas pedal "gets stuck" in some manner, then you shouldn't be driving on the road.
Makes me wonder why we have such bad drivers like the CHP Officer's of this world giving tickets to the GOOD driver's of this world.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
Could it bunch up behind the brake pedal and prevent full application of the brakes?
Once the premise is that a loose all season matt is moving forward enough to interfere with the controls, then the above suggestion may be possible.
I am not convinced my self, though.
However, please note that unless a line-lock has been installed, the brakes are applied to all four wheels. Thus, the driven wheels that are being spun during a burn out, are spinning with the brakes fully applied, suggesting that the engine torque is overcoming the brakes on the driven wheels at least. Also, burnouts are done is the lowest gears so the torque is multiplied.
I have done many crazy things in life, but I cannot see any sane person testing this hypothesis at speed on a public road.
In this situation, no, because the tires were on fire. That indicates full braking at high speeds causing enough friction to start a fire.
But again, that's at a standstill. Nobody's answered my question of what would happen if you're rollling along at 100+, and then decide to stomp on the gas and brakes at the same time. Whole different story, I'd imagine.
However, even without full application of the brakes, one could easily overheat them to the point of combustion.
I don't think in less than two minutes you could do it though.
He was not mildly applying the brakes - you can bet he was STANDING on that brake.
The 911 call was 50 seconds long, so they were probably in trouble not too much before that. He said in the call that the brakes were not stopping the car - so by the time the 911 call was made, he was probably already burning tires.
Because if they throttle was stuck at full and they could not stop the car, they would not have gone crash-free for too awfully long on a busy SoCal freeway.
I cannot make sense of this based on the information available.
My guess is he tried the brakes but didn't keep his foot on the pedal. Still, why didn't he shift into neutral? And there's still the option, presumably, of scraping along a Jersey barrier or guardrail to scrub off some speed.
But in the heat of the moment, he must not have thought about any of them enough to implement the idea.
I think maybe because his wife and daughter were in the car, he was wanting to bring it to a wreck-free ending, and focused on that ending, to his detriment.
There must have been considerable panic involved in affecting the decisions made.
Very sad that 4 people had to die.
But remember: about 100-120 people a day in the USA die in car crashes. Many of them preventable.
This one might have been preventable too, but we just don't know.
It could be argued that most of the 100 or so deaths every day in car crashes could have been prevented. But to err is human, unfortunately.
that does lead me to thinking that maybe the brakes were somewhat warn.
i also have read that the brake fluid could lose effectiveness due to the heat.
that mat against the pedal may have been the first link in an unfortunate chain of events.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nah, Toyota made the mistake of letting US Business school grads get too much influence - the same idiots that have brought down Wall Street several times over the past 20 years and destroyed D3. Now the Japanese are firming up control and leadership. Toyota will be fine. GM needs to be on guard to not get sucked in by MBA theorists again though. The answer isn't always a quantitative model or short term quarterly financial results.
"In a stunning public admission, Akio Toyoda, president of Toyota Motor Corp. and grandson of the company's founder, apologized for the death of a California family in a crash that led the Japanese automaker to issue its largest U.S. recall and acknowledged Toyota is 'grasping for salvation' as it faces another annual loss.
Together, the remarks show how the world's largest and seemingly unstoppable automaker -- best known for its high quality -- has been humbled by the global economic crisis, as well as other challenges.
Toyota is recalling 3.8 million vehicles in the United States to remove floor mats, which might have jammed the accelerator in the fatal California accident. Federal safety officials are investigating.
He also lamented Toyota's challenges, saying, 'We have to listen to our customers and make better cars.'
And despite Toyota's record losses, which are expected to reach $5 billion this year,
The automaker also has maintained its 16.6% U.S. market share through September, although Toyota is discounting its vehicles more heavily to capture those sales.
Toyota’s new challenges: Stop decline, make profit
Toyota Motor Corp. has been through the phases of decline outlined by Jim Collins, author of ' How the Mighty Fail,' President Akio Toyoda said during a Friday speech in Tokyo.
Collins, who has gained a strong following among business leaders globally, talks about 'hubris born of success,' 'undisciplined pursuit of more' and 'denial of risk and peril.'
The automaker is one step away from 'capitulation to irrelevance or death,' Toyoda said, citing the study of how companies fail.
The automaker is faced with more challenges than ever before, and the company is clearly rattled.
'They see what happened to General Motors and they fear it could happen to them,' said Aaron Bragman, an industry analyst with IHS Global Insight in Troy.
Toyota has forecast a record loss of 450 billion yen ($5 billion) in its next fiscal year, ending next March. That’s on top of a loss of $4.4 billion in its last fiscal year.
The company will sell about 7.3 million vehicles this year, Toyoda said, down from 8.97 million in 2008.
Toyota’s sales plunged 28% in the first nine months of this year in the United States, traditionally its most profitable market.
The yen’s 7.4% rise against the dollar in the third quarter has raised the cost on vehicles produced in Japan for export.
'The yen is at a very severe level, and just increasing sales won’t make Toyota profitable,' Toyoda said.
The recent decision to shutter a Fremont, Calif., assembly plant next year, after General Motors Co. withdrew from the New United Motors Manufacturing Inc. joint venture, also marks Toyota’s first plant closing ever in the United States. It also has a new plant in Blue Springs, Miss., that is sitting idle.
Just this week, the company’s recall of 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles has blemished Toyota’s once-flawless image.
Last month, Toyota’s request to seal a U.S. lawsuit by a former in-house attorney, who claims the carmaker destroyed crash data, was denied by a judge who said the suit was already irreversibly public.
Toyoda said the 72-year old company, established by his grandfather Kiichiro Toyoda, will 'need to groom young people to be making cars for the next 100 years.' "
I think its way too early to say whether the recent events cited in this article are just temporary setbacks in Toyota's continuing climb as the worlds new #1 automaker, or the beginning or a long term reversal. What are your thoughts on this?
Another fun exercise is to go back to post 1 and read a few doom and gloom posts from 2005.
This driver's mat thing won't end up denting their rep much, I don't think, but the measures above will lead to falling resale of Toyota vehicles and decreasing numbers of repeat customers. The one thing they CAN count on is help from the Japanese government, and even other Japanese industries, if/once they hit the skids. We may witness the Toyota bailout in the next decade, similar to the GM bailout, especially if we fall into a second recession before 2020.
I used to think Toyota would be able to achieve a 20% market share in the U.S. without much trouble, but now I think it would have to be no more than 15% max, for them to operate with a comfortable profit margin and renew the rep they have had for the last 30 years. That will mean a lot more downsizing for them....
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No company is too big to fail. Look at GM. Only surviving on tax dollars flushed down their corporate toilets. I wonder how many of their billions in reserve they have gone through this recession?
>Last month, Toyota’s request to seal a U.S. lawsuit by a former in-house attorney, who claims the carmaker destroyed crash data, was denied by a judge who said the suit was already irreversibly public.
Toyota surely wouldn't try to quelch information like that, now would they?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota started out making weaving looms (and still does) but I didn't know they made sewing machines. They used to have competition from Mercedes.
TOKYO -- Toyota Motor Corp. President Akio Toyoda said his money-losing automaker is “grasping for salvation” as it struggles to return to profit.
The world's largest car company was once targeting annual sales of 10 million vehicles but now expects sales of 7.3 million this year, down from 8.97 million in 2008, Toyoda said today at a news conference here.
Citing the five stages of corporate decline outlined by Jim Collins, author of How the Mighty Fall, the Toyota chief warned that his company has slumped to stage four, which Collins calls “grasping for salvation.”
“We are grasping for salvation,” Toyoda said, adding that the company already has spiraled through the first three stages: (1) hubris born of success, (2) undisciplined pursuit of more and (3) denial of risk and peril. His self-admonitions echoed the apologies commonly made by Japanese executives who take responsibility for financial turmoil or corporate scandal.
.......“Toyota has become too big and distant from its customers,” the grandson of the automaker's founder said as he prepares for a second-straight year of substantial financial and unit-sale decreases.
In the United States, Toyota's sales fell 13 percent in September from a year earlier as the market suffered a sharp letdown after the government-funded cash-for-clunkers program ran out. Total U.S. sales tumbled 23 percent. Toyota is down 28 percent for the year.
.......Presenting a further challenge, Toyota said this week it would recall 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus models in the United States -- its largest-ever recall -- because of a risk that a loose floor mat could force down the accelerator. The problem is suspected of causing at least one crash that killed four people.
“We would like to pay our deepest condolences for the loss of four precious lives,” Toyoda said. But because an investigation into the problem is still under way, he said, he could offer no further details about plans to address the issue.
“Customers who chose Toyota and Lexus cars because those brands are safe and secure are now beset with anxiety. I regret and apologize for this development,” said Toyoda, who took office in June.
.......Toyoda said he would welcome an unlikely extension of Japan's cash-for-clunkers program beyond March, while adding it would not be prudent to keep depending on the government for help.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20091002/COPY01/310029966/1210
This is HOW MANY mea culpas from Toyota senior brass in the last three years??!! It has to be at least three. Toyoda is new to his job, so maybe he is just the guy the company needs to turn it around, but there's no question Toyota is suffering the most of all the foreign automakers from the recession, and also that its rep has suffered the most in the last decade of any of the Japanese firms except maybe Mitsubishi (with the 0/0/0 fiasco) and Isuzu (which has given up and left the North American market entirely). :-(
It's time to see LESS talk and MORE action from Toyota.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The AC compressors don't really explode, right? They just fail and require replacement? And we are talking about a population WAY less than 0.01% of the total?
The faulty transmission problem seems to be fixed, and they did extend the warranty to 100K for the bad ones, perhaps not much comfort to the folks with 101,000 miles that had planned on keeping their cars forever.
You still get the impression (at least I do) that most of Honda's design choices are thoughtful and intentional, while it seems like these days those of Toyota often are not made with the customer in mind. Instead, they are done carelessly or with the sole intent of cost-cutting.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
One member's compressor fell off when it failed but didn't wind up in traffic. No one claims to have been in a wreck because of one "blowing up."
Honda CR-V AC Compressor Issues
I happen to own both Toyota and Honda products right now. My feeling is that both have cheapened up. I think Toyota has shown a lot of arrogance with things like unique tire sizes combined with cheapo OEM tires that don't hold up in total disregard for ownership costs. But my experience is that Honda seems to be poorly assembled with too many rattles, squeeks and other noise early on. The cars handle nicely, but start to get annoying to drive with all the excess noises. Maybe poor quality gaskets and sealing? That may be a reason why Acura can't build decent volume compared to Lexus? Toyota doesn't handle as well as Honda, but it doesn't handle poorly, its just more American boulevard engineered. Honda seems geared higher for a little more oomph, but Toyota is quieter and my experience has been noticeably better fuel economy. Bottom line, they both deserve to be blasted given their premium pricing, but for some reason people seem to go soft on Honda. I have to wonder if the situation was reversed with Honda way ahead in sales, if Toyota might get a free ride instead? If Ford and GM keep on track with their seemingly improving quality and products, both Toyota and Honda may get a rude wake up call in the next five years or so in sales volume and profitability. It wasn't really all that long ago that the Oldsmobile Cutlass and Chevy Impala/Caprice seemed invincible.
"Explode" may be a figurative term, but when they do go, they send all sorts of shrapnel through the a/c system, and pretty much contaminate the whole thing. At least, that's what happened back in February when the compressor on my Intrepid, which is the same unit Honda uses, blew up. And when I looked under the hood, the area around the pulley sort of looked like there had been an internal explosion that had some of the pressure forced its way out.
Now in my case, it was totally my fault. The system had a slow leak in it, and I was trying to nurse it along until the spring to get it fixed. However, I was still running the defog/defroster, which runs the a/c compressor, and I guess the system went bone dry, lube and all, and just seized up.
My repair ended up running $1,301. Still, in my case I don't blame the Americans, the Germans (who owned Chrysler at the time my Intrepid was built) or the Japanese. This one was totally my fault. However, I have heard that some a/c systems are "smart" enough to shut off the compressor if they get too low on freon, and some are also designed so that if the compressor does fail, it won't contaminate the whole system.
Well, a 5-9% failure rate is still considered "average" for Consumer Reports' standards.
Hondas have always "enjoyed" complaints of excessive road noise so perhaps little has changed there. Toyotas have the better road noise rep.
I wonder if that's simply because Hondas tend to be designed to handle and feel a bit more sporty, while Toyota tries to isolate you more from the road, more like an old Buick?
Last year, we reported that Toyota and Subaru were collaborating to develop a lightweight, rear-wheel-drive coupe. We were excited.
And now our excitement has reached the heady level of In A Bit of A Tizz, because here it is: the Toyota FT-86, set to debut at the Tokyo motor show later this month.
Yes, that's it exactly, and for anyone who enjoys driving even a little bit, there is a noticeable difference between driving a Camry and an Accord, even now with the Accord so big. The score is Honda 1, Toyota 0.
As for the new Toyota coupe, I don't understand why they are showing it at such an early auto show, considering it won't be in production until the end of 2011. The car looks exciting, should be good with the 2 liter Subaru boxer under the hood, but price has crept up a lot since this thing was first proposed, with the chief Toyota engineer on the project now saying that $30K must be its price ceiling. I hope they offer NA and turbo, and the 200 hp NA falls nearer to $20K than $30K in price.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They get their numbers from the companies' financial sheets so I think they're pretty good estimates.
You do hear a lot about those exploding AC compressors but 9% seems a little high, even for a specific component. That's almost one out of ten - I think people would be camping outside the dealers if the failure rate was that high. I could believe 5 or 6% - it's an interesting question and I'd love to see the actual numbers collected from the service departments.
Toyota's warranty claims rate is 1.8% (as is Ford).
I don't know about the NVH claims - some say that Toyota spends more on soundproofing than Honda.
Plus, when you think about it, those CR ratings are only for one specific year in time, not over the life of the car. So, if you have an 11 year old car, and the reported failure rate was 9% of them every year, then there's an awfully good chance that after 11 years, just about all of them have failed at some point in their life. Some of them might have failed more than once.
To a large degree that's true, but you can quiet down the noise on some Hondas just by getting different tires. The OEM Michelins that came on our 00 Accord were designed with tread wear as the number one concern. When it came time to replace I did the old Tire Rack selector and said #1 performance #2 comfort and #3 tread wear. This landed me in Dunlop A6s which were way quiter and more responsive.
As long as they don't USE my money to fund their expenses, I don't care what they do or how much money they lose.
But when companies start losing MY money, and give themselves bonuses when they win or profit, and send me the bill when they lose or go bankrupt, I have a problem with that. As far as I'm concerned, all of the employees of all the bailedout companies should have to return all bonuses issued in the last 10 years as a BACK TAX.
Actually the Symmetrys that came standard on the Odyssey EXs (but NOT the LXs) area pretty good tire. The Bridgestones on the LX are not.
I started out on the freeway at 40 mph.
I Floored the accelerator up to 62 mph to simulate a "stuck" accelerator.
With my foot still on the floor, I used the shifter to shift to neutral.
Car instantly went into neutral, and the RPMS immediately dropped to IDLE range , even as my foot remained stomping on the accelerator !
This 2007 Camry Hybrid I drive has the same engine technology as the Lexus 350 which was in the CHP crash.
It proves that to save their lives, all he would have had to do is to put the car into neutral.
I listened to the 911 call last night.
I think that 911 operators MUST BE TRAINED to tell people in that situation to "PUT THE CAR INTO NEUTRAL."
Had anyone of the 4 in the car or the 911 operator thought to do that, this would not have ended in tragedy.
I have never heard of such a car.
Toyota may be faced with another recall a week after its largest U.S. recall in company history.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Tuesday said it would investigate frame corrosion on 2000 and 2001 model year Tundra pickups. An estimated 218,000 units are involved.
NHTSA said it has received 20 complaints--15 of them alleging that the underbody-mounted spare tire separated from the rear cross member. The other five complaints allege damaged brake lines due to corrosion on the driver's side rear cross member.
Brian Lyons, a spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc., said he is not surprised at NHTSA's investigation.
“We've been investigating this for a little bit of time,” he said. “We know there are some complaints out there. We have repurchased some vehicles to aid in our investigation.”
.....Toyota faced a similar frame-rust problem last year involving about 750,000 Tacoma pickups.
In March 2008, the company agreed to buy back 1995 to 2000 model year Tacomas at 150 percent of the high Kelly Blue Book value.
Then in November 2008, the company issued a recall on 2001 to 2004 model year Tacomas. If there was no rust, Toyota automatically extended the warranty to 15 years with unlimited mileage. If there was rust, the frames were replaced at no cost to the consumer.
Lyons did not say why the company did not issue a recall for the Tundra at the same time as the Tacoma.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20091007/CARNEWS/910079998
I believe it was gagrice that has mentioned the Tacoma rust problems here in the past. Clearly the problem extended to Tundras as well. If a whole decade of Tacomas was affected by this problem, it begs the question why nothing was done about this much sooner. Are the 2005+ models any better, or will they be recalled in the next few years as well?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I guess we should sue the 911 operator also, in addition to Toyota?
Just use the hooks, and don't put mats on top of other mats, and you won't have problems. It even says this in the owner's manual.
If you don't know better than to turn the key/ignition off or put it in neutral when the gas pedal "gets stuck" in some manner, then you shouldn't be driving on the road.
Makes me wonder why we have such bad drivers like the CHP Officer's of this world giving tickets to the GOOD driver's of this world.
Who should they sue?
Sheesh.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)