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Toyota to Replace 3.8 Million Gas Pedals; Edmunds.com Re-Enacts Problem (AutoObserver)
"Indeed, there is more to the Toyota floor mat debacle than floor mats.
Modifications will typically involved shortening the pedal to move it farther away from the mat. However, in the Lexus ES 350, and Toyota Avalon and Camry, Toyota will also remove foam material from the floor to allow more clearance."
Toyota Will Shorten Gas Pedals to Ward Off Stuck Throttle (Straightline)
What? So you say that side airbags are not as important a safety feature as a smart pedal???? I don't think many people (anyone??) would agree with you. I know I would not buy a car without side airbags. The difference is simple - the airbags will protect you, just as an example, from someone who runs a light and T-bones you. Nothing you could do about it to prevent it, so you need those airbags to help protect from injuries that you can not prevent in many cases. Unfortunately, these accidents happen often.
Now the smart pedal - how many times will that prevent injuries? Hardly ever. Personally for me, NEVER. I use the hooks and use one mat. The smart pedal is the last thing I would want to pay for, just because of a very few incompetent people.
I never thought that Toyota would not have to do anything, but I said from the beginning that they should not have to do anything.
The hate hate crowd was (and still is praying) that there was something else wrong electronically, not just an unsecured mat, caused by user/driver error, that could interfere with the pedal.
If there is a release, I will be signing - absolutely no need to do any upgrading.
How close is it to an all weather floor mat if the cheapo clips break and the mat slides forward?
I said from the beginning that they should not have to do anything.
I agree and disagree. If car makers are required by law to make cars fail safe and idiot proof with all the electronic traction and braking devices, why not a smart peddle? Or how about the lame tire monitors for absolute idiots. I drove most of the year for 25 years on ice and snow in the Arctic and never needed traction control. And ABS was a hazard on ice with 4WD. So as far as I am concerned anyone that needs all those extra devices are just lousy drivers that should not be allowed on the road. All this proves is no matter how safe a vehicle becomes someone is going to sue and we will get stuck with another POC on our vehicles. Why let Toyota off the hook when Nader and his bunch at CR wiped out the Corvair. I had no trouble driving the Corvair or VW Bug either. Only an idiot would roll a Corvair.
You obviously did not take the same defensive driving courses I had with Bell Telephone. Any accident you are involved in is partially your fault. ANY ACCIDENT. Getting T boned is not a good excuse. And there are many complaints on ODI of Toyota airbags failing to inflate. Airbags are a false sense of security at best. First one I picked random on a 2007 Camry side airbag failed to inflate. Don't count on them in an accident. A big waste of money.
I LIVE IN CANADA BUT I THOUGHT THIS WAS RELATIVE AS I NOTICE A RECALL ON THIS PARTICULAR CAR FOR THIS PRECISE PROBLEM. I HAD A 2007 TOYOTA CAMRY HYBRID WAS HIT ON FEB 12,2008, BUT A MINIVAN THAT HAD LOST CONTROL AND COME INTO OUR LANE. MY TOYOTA CAMRY WAS HIT FRONT OFFSET, POSSIBLY TWO IMPACTS FROM MINIVAN AS THE FRONT DRIVER SIDE DOOR WAS CRUSHED. THE CAR WAS WRITTEN OFF AND THE DRIVER SIDE AIR BAG ON THE STEERING WHEEL WAS DEPLOYED AND THE KNEE AIR BAG WAS DEPLOYED. ,BUT EVENTHOUGH MY FRONT DRIVER DOOR WAS CRUSHED IN AND I COULD NOT OPEN IT MYSELF AND SOMEONE OPENED MY VEHICLE FROM THE OUTSIDE, THE SIDE AIR BAG WAS NOT DEPLOYED NOR WAS THE CURTAIN SHIELD AIR BAG DEPLOYED. I SUFFERED A MILD CONCUSSION FROM THE ACCIDENT AND AM STILL RECEIVING TREATMENT TO DATE. THANK YOU *TR
PS
There are a lot of airbag complaints mostly involved in accidents with Toyota Camry.
TL*THE CONTACT OWNS A 2007 TOYOTA CAMRY. WHILE ATTEMPTING TO MAKE A RIGHT TURN AT 10 MPH, A TRAVEL TRAILER CRASHED INTO THE FRONT DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE CONTACT'S VEHICLE. THE VEHICLE SPUN AROUND IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. THE VEHICLE WAS COMPLETELY DESTROYED AND NONE OF THE AIR BAGS DEPLOYED. THE DRIVER SUSTAINED MODERATE INJURIES DUE TO THE CRASH. A POLICE REPORT WAS FILED. THE CONTACT HAS A VIDEO AND PICTURES OF THE INCIDENT. THE FAILURE AND CURRENT MILEAGES WERE 15,206.
Where is Nader to write a book about Toyota Camry, Unsafe in an accident?
Come on, I listed an example of an accident that would likely NOT be your fault, providing you had the right-of way. My point is that no matter how good a driver you are, no matter how much training you have, you CANNOT prevent all accidents - unless you walk on water. That's why air bags are great, and better than a "smart" pedal, which is 99.999% useless, but you still think it is better than side air bags. :confuse:
I was involved in an accident years ago (I was not driving), but the person pulled out and hit the right front fender of the car I was riding in - it was NOT our car's fault, it was the other guy that pulled out into us. The police reports and the insurance companies said we were NOT at fault - at all. You could say we should never leave the house, I guess, so in that respect it was partially our fault
In a decade of having those "cheapo clips" in my Toyotas (about 175,000 miles), they have NEVER broken, come loose, whatever. I have never heard of any coming loose or breaking either. Now, I am sure you will spend time finding a few examples of clips breaking, but most other manufactures have them too, and the ones I have seen are no better, and in many cases, worse. I think someone here mentioned that a month ago that a car (not a Toyota) had clips that broke, and I know you complain about yours causing you to "trip" :confuse: , but I still have not seen any problems with hooks, or clips, breaking. Now go out and hit one with a hammer now :sick: and tell us about it.
I agree with the tire monitors, BUT I can see some use for them - if you are on the highway, and start loosing pressure, the system will warn you, possibly before you are in worse trouble. Would I pay for it if optional - NO. But the tire monitors are still more beneficial than a "Smart pedal" that you want. Skid/traction control - good device, might be beneficial, even if you are a perfect (no such thing) driver.
Face it, most people (come on, chime in) would agree that a smart pedal is the last and least useful safety device they would want. I still wonder why you want if more than any of these other safety items. I am sure others would love to hear why you think it is better than these other items. You must sell your Toyota now. It must cause you so much stress that it has to be aging you by 2 years for every week you own it.
Didn't Honda also get a lot of complaints in some past models about airbags not inflating in accidents warranting an inflation event?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A tire inflation monitor is protecting from something wrong with the tires which is not a direct part of Toyota's build of the automobile. Tires suffer intrusions from road detritus.
On the other hand, I would want the acceleration cancel on the computer triggered by the brake pedal. It is to protect from a flaw in the automobile that can lead to engine acceleration that is unwanted. It would be high on the list of options that should be standard. Apparently should have been already standard if Toyota had reacted to the unintended acceleration reports instead of giving them the "sludge is the owners' faults" treatment and had started looking for real problems, not an excuse in the floor mats.
My big concern is letting the computer cancel the acceleration. The computer and programming or engineering of the circuits therein or related circuits in the cars that may be causing the full throttle to occur.
Can we trust Toyota engineers in Japan to get the programming right and not have other failures that the computer can't control.
There's nothing like an ignition key to kill the power to the engine instead of relying on another Toyota computer program to control a runaway motor.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If the mats are installed correctly then they can't come anywhere near the pedal at any time while driving. It's impossible. It's the bozos that don't follow instructions like at the dealer in San Diego that caused this brouhaha.
If I was so unfortunate as to have an accident, I would hope the side air bags would work properly. Do I think they are any more important than a Smart Pedal, NO! I am not convinced of a clean bill of health on the firmware ToyLex uses for their drive by wire. So a smart pedal will give a better chance if the throttle goes wide open for any reason.
You could say we should never leave the house, I guess, so in that respect it was partially our fault
That is precisely what Pacific Telephone would say if an employee had any kind of accident. All accidents are avoidable according to the training I received for the 9 years I worked for them. Many people were let go for having accidents that were not really their fault. Same went for Greyhound drivers back then.
In a decade of having those "cheapo clips" in my Toyotas (about 175,000 miles), they have NEVER broken
I have one here in front of me from my wife's 1990 LS400. It was back under the seat. One is still good after 20 years. It would make no difference as the pedal was well designed on the early Lexus.
I agree with the tire monitors, BUT I can see some use for them
You can see the value in tire monitors and not a smart pedal. Sounds like Toyota damage control to me. My biggest complaint on tire monitors is the dealers themselves. on my 5000 mile service I asked them to inflate all the tires to 40 lbs. I checked the next morning and they were at the same 36 lbs from when I went in. They were too lazy to crawl under the Sequoia and inflate the spare. Which has to match the rest or you get an alarm. Just another useless very expensive device we are required to have. I have not had a flat tire in over 30 years as I keep good tires on my vehicles. That includes a lot of back road driving in the desert. So that is 100% worthless to me.
I cannot wait to see what you get next!
Until someone comes up with a high MPG diesel SUV I will just keep sucking down the gas in this guzzler. I have gotten used to the poor electronics which hopefully does not extend to the accelerator going WOT one day. It is comfortable, roomy and pleasant to drive. Not a chance that the floor mat will interfere with the throttle. So that makes it better than most of the vehicles ToyLex sells. It also has a high US content built in Princeton Indiana. So whatever I get has to be better to get my cash. If you knew me you would know that vehicles have never stressed me out. I enjoy the banter and seeing how people worship different brands. Nothing on the market in the USA is worth the price you pay.
You are wrong. The one from our LS400 broke at the weakest point. Not the hook itself, where it attaches to the floor. And it is much more substantial than the single hook used in our 07 Sequoia. That is really a pathetic little "Cheapo" piece of plastic. Build the throttle right and you can get rid of the worthless hooks. I would not have realized the Lexus had hooks if not for the WOT debacle.
I've had two experiences where the tire monitor did what it's supposed to. On my Expedition I was driving into town and the low tire pressure light came on (unfortunately it doesn't tell you which tire, but hey it's a Ford). I stopped at a gas station and sure enough I had a nail in the tire and it was about 5 lbs low at the time.
Second, the tire monitor saved my wife from being in the middle of no where with a flat. Her company car wasn't a month old when she ran over a huge piece of metal. She called me on the phone while driving out of town the her monitor said her left rear tire was loosing air. I think it starter warning her at like 25lbs and by the time she turned around and got back to the house it was down to about 15lbs of pressure (GM's system gives individual tire pressure which is pretty cool, accurate too). So it kept her from being stranded on the side of the road.
Now the bad thing with GM's system at least on her Grand Prix is the spare doesn't have a sensor, so you get a tire monitoring system warning the whole time the spare is on. Annoying more than anything.
I had one just last week (Les Schwab fixed it free, thank you). Seems like I get one every year or so.
If I had a TPMS, I would have known something was wrong while I was running errands last week and I could have gotten it checked while I was out. Les is only a quarter mile away from the Winco, so I could have popped over there and had it done in 30 minutes.
Instead I come home, put the groceries up and then my wife arrives home an hour later to tell me I have a flat. So then I had to go put the spare on myself, make another trip off the hill, yada, yada. Cost me a couple of hours. Luckily it was repairable (~25,000 miles on the set).
A TPMS helped me on a rental a couple of years ago similar to Dieselone's experience; managed to get to a service station before the tire went completely flat.
Install the mats properly and the problem goes away.
There is no data or evidence for any other problem/solution.
There is no data or evidence for any other problem/solution.
The NHTSA does not agree with you. A simpler solution. Toss out the mats the dealer screwed the customer out of $200 for. There are 100s of complaints and Toyota has decided to do the right thing. End of story.
I guess I am lucky with tires. I am also very careful not to hit objects laying in the road. We got lots of flats in Prudhoe. Just call the mechanic to come change them. Union rules. 10 ply tires rarely lasted more than a year on those gravel roads. Toyo were the best and Bridgestones next.
I still think in the light of the deaths directly attributed to WOT on ToyLex the remedies they have taken are the best way to go. If some one is foolish enough to pass on the upgrades, it is their choice to sacrifice their family for their pride and misdirected beliefs.
I guess I'm not yet fully convinced of the "it's only the mats" argument. Why bother with the brake/throttle smart pedal fix if that was completely ruled out? That's a lot of extra dough just for peace of mind.
Gagrice, i need to go to your eye doctor if you can spot a roofing nail on the road while driving 60 mph;)
Hell, my wife can't even see curbs. LOL
Nor am I. If Toyota did not have a long history of WOT many reports with the Prius, I would probably buy the floor mat being the reason. It is a fact that the firmware for the Prius had flaws that caused it to die just driving down the highway. Which can be as dangerous as WOT. Toyota came up with a fix after much lying to the customers and just resetting the computer in the cars. Those that are so sure it could not be a code problem do not have much experience with computers, is my guess.
I still want to know what the black box says. With the SD sheriffs less than stellar reputation they may have botched it. Or gave it to the local Lexus dealer to decipher the data. The attorneys may have it under lock and key ready to explode a lot of theories put out on this Forum.
Gagrice, I was just teasing you. Nails are a pain. I was getting my boat out of storage last year and the storage facility was still building more facilities. I picked up a nail in two of the 4 trailer tires. Thankfully I made it home and the nails weren't causing a leak.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That is my opinion also. Too many dead people as a result of a poor design. And that is why Toyota was forced to make the changes. It is obvious the 2007 recall did NO good. People do not worry about floor mat hooks. It is just not something a normal human being would be anal about. Not even ToyLex dealers worry about them. At least up till now. I would bet most of the posters here never gave floor mat hooks a thought prior to this big recall. I know I would not have, if mine was not in the middle of the floor board sticking up to trip over.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Typically Toyota rolls out new technology as new models are revised every 5 yrs or so. But this mess sped up the implementation schedule it appears. It was coming anyway so why not implement it as soon as possible to satisfy the authorities. From the comments at the very beginning the smart pedals were foreseen as the ultimate solution if memory serves me correctly.
umm, not exactly. The smart pedal should trigger if the gas gets stuck for whatever reason (like a floor mat jammed on top of the pedal) and then you hit the brakes.
That won't help the people who manage to stomp on the gas thinking they are applying the brakes, but a kill switch probably wouldn't help those folks much either.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5780220n&tag=contentMain;contentBody;
WOW! Over two minutes - with family gatherings and the TV playing in the background when the frantic 911 tape is played from the passengers in San Diego Lexus that crashed and burned last August. The only thing more the people at Ford, GM and Honda could possibly have hoped for was that it was announced as breaking news during the superbowl. Toyota's tone deaf - out of touch GM style management team with the "we don't make mistakes attitude" better wake up,
BTW: I still think Toyota engineering is superb and I love my V6 Camry ... but Toyota clearly needs to revamp its management style.
This whole thing with Toyota reminds me of that false accusation against the lacrosse team a few years ago. People just knew they were guilty... until it turned out that they were not. Very few, in any, ever apologized. Same thing will happen here.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Why would you assume that? I don't live in China, not that I really see what difference that makes. Some people just dislike being wrong and then getting called on it I guess.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That is just simple math. It doesn't matter that many more cars were sold in the US then China over the past 10 years. More cars are sold in China now so that makes them the bigger new car market.
China will be the larger and faster growing market for years to come because their market is not fully mature. Their aren't many used cars in the Chinese market right now because they haven't been selling a large quantity of new cars yet. Watch the Top Gear episode when they go to Vietnam to get an idea of what I am talking about.
They wanted to do one of their cheap used car skits but there aren't any cheap used cars in Vietnam yet. The only cars around are expensive new or one or two year old cars.
If you want a car in China right now you probably have to buy a new one because there isn't much of a used car market yet. That plus the huge population, many of which are poor, but there is a large middle class forming and that middle class will be larger then the entire population of the US within a couple of decades.
I just read an article that claims there are 300 million middle class in China today. They have been stirring the Communist pot also. The projection a couple years ago was for China to pass US in auto sales by 2016. They will do that this year and maybe double US in a few years.
That is a big "if". The last full year numbers we have is for 2008. We won't have the total 2009 numbers until sometime in 2010. The last I heard you don't stop the game in the 3rd quarter and declare a winner. I suggest that we wait until all the numbers are in for 2009.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
If I remember correctly, Toyota did just that when they passed GM in sales back in 2007. It was just one quarter.
Toyota may have under-estimated its own horse power.
The Japanese automaker said Tuesday it has replaced General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) as the world's No. 1 car seller in the first quarter of 2007. The Japanese company had expected to overtake GM in 2008.
http://www.forbes.com/2007/04/24/toyota-general-motors-markets-equity-cx_vk_0424- markets05.html
VW did not brag about outselling Toyota. It was posted in the EU papers. In fact many times it is hard to get VW numbers. They are not really playing the games Toyota played with GM.
VW-Porsche has overtaken Toyota as the world's largest automaker, but the stay at the number one spot may be very temporary.
Volkswagen Group, having merged with Porsche, has had an output this year of 4.4 million units, while Toyota has produced 4 million vehicles since January 2009.
According to auto industry analysts IHS Global Insight,
Where would we all be without nails? I agree, when some moron lets them spill out of their pickup truck bed on to the road, them's fightin' acts. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Thanks for getting us back to the right topic, which is Toyota not U.S.A. vs China !
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Your problem does not surprise me. You will find many on this thread still in denial on the downhill slide that Toyota is taking. The stitching in the leather of our 20 year old Lexus is still in great shape. There was a time that Toyota built quality cars. I don't think over the last 10 years that can be proven. I would try another dealer.
I had the cloth coming loose from the padding on my 1990 GMC PU seat and They replaced the whole drivers seat. It was just cosmetic, but not right and they fixed it.
If you have less then 12,000 miles then they should definitely take care of it if you don't then you might be out of luck.
Read This
See this post and read the story
Toyota has been under a spotlight since the San Diego crash, in which the driver's desperate efforts to stop the car were recorded on a 911 emergency call made by a passenger. After that incident, The Times reported that sudden acceleration events involving Toyota vehicles have resulted in at least 19 deaths since the introduction of the 2002 model year. By comparison, NHTSA says all other automakers combined had 11 fatalities related to sudden acceleration in the same period.
Independent electronics and engineering experts say the drive-by-wire systems differ from automaker to automaker and that the potential for electronic throttle control systems to malfunction may have been dismissed too quickly by both Toyota and federal safety officials.
Unlike mechanical systems, electronic throttles -- which have the look and feel of traditional gas pedals -- are vulnerable to software glitches, manufacturing defects and electronic interference that could cause sudden acceleration, they say.
NHTSA, the nation's primary agency for auto safety, has conducted a total of eight investigations of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles since 2003, prompted by defect petitions from motorists and its own examination of complaints. But the agency has tested electronic throttle systems only twice in those probes, its records show.
Three years ago, the agency asked Toyota to test an electronic throttle component from a 2006 Camry, a task the company delegated to the Japanese supplier that manufactured the part. The supplier exonerated the throttle, and then NHTSA allowed Toyota to keep virtually the entire 74-page report almost entirely confidential. The report, posted on the agency's website, has dozens of redacted pages.
The other test, conducted at a NHTSA laboratory in Massachusetts, found that a Toyota throttle exhibited unusual behavior when researchers applied a magnetic field to the device's sensitive electronics. Engine speed surged by 1,000 revolutions per minute, according to a 2008 report by the agency's Vehicle Research and Test Center.
Sounds like Toyotagate to me. And there are known issues with the drive by wire that Toyota has issued TSBs on. I wonder how many customers they played dumb with before fixing those problems?
Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry.
The throttle systems on six-cylinder engines can cause the vehicle to "exhibit a surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38 mph and 42 mph," according to one of the bulletins that was published by Alldata, a vehicle information company. The solution provided to dealers was to reprogram the engine control module.
If they don't, and the wrecked vehicles don't have floor mats, or ones that are incorrectly placed, and the vehicles actually had the pedal work done, then Toyota will have an even bigger problem on their hands.
So it's incumbent on Toyota and the NHTSA to fix it right the first time.
Your link cites one UK expert witness Lars (Anderson), who does have a rather persuasive web page . The other guy runs a site that I think funnels people to law firms, and I don't think anyone knows of any special qualifications the guy has, other than the ability to code some html.