fezo....that's a complete 180 degree turn for Mr. Toyoda. I think it's a good move on his part.
houdini.....I think I mentioned my older sister bought an Audi 5000 right before all the sudden acceleration news hit. Resale took a huge tumble and she was stuck with the car much longer than she wanted. For all intents and purposes, she drove it until the wheels fell off since she really had no choice. The value of it had dropped so dramatically that she only had one choice.....drive it until it was worth nothing.
That was her first go round with a German sourced car. While I was just a kid, I do remember it being quite nice. But, I also remember her cursing it for the high maintenance costs, and her plight of not being able to rid herself of it. IIRC, there was a point in time when there wasn't a dealership anywhere within driving distance of us who would actually want it in trade. They just didn't want it.
She had advertised it in the newspaper after about 3 years. Even then, she said the offers she got for it were ridiculous....even if someone would contact her about it, which wasn't more than one or two people looking for a "steal".
Now, I don't know if that will happen with Toyotas. But, I do think there's much more credible evidence that Toyota/Lexus has some severe safety issues, be they UA, steering problems or braking problems.
Whereas for Audi, it was merely a case where the pedals were engineered close together (prompting people to hit the accelerator when they wanted to hit the brake). Still, that almost totally drove Audi out of business in the U.S.
That won't happen to Toyota. But, I think they're looking at some very lean years in the future. They're going to be facing sizable fines, here and probably worldwide. Then, they have to offer some sort of a fix for all those models. I still think it's going to end up being a reflash of their electronics for most of their models and makes. Then, there are the lawsuits....for everything from wrongful death, to accidents and injuries, to reduced resale values. Those will take years to sort out.
But, the only thing Toyota can do is to take the bitter pills they're going to have to swallow (starting with Mr. Toyoda's meeting with Congress) and move as quickly as they can to rectify all the damage they've done.
My guess you are Hot in you guess but GM and Ford will give $300.00 to $1,000 for trade.This has been the big problem most Toyota cars out there have 200,000 or more miles on them and the pedal Gas/brake problem is not the same as the Audi. Hit either and you could be running into some one driving a GM product , either to fast or not stopping. Who would you like to sue, him who stopped you or Toyota?
I'm not expecting anything magical out of Congress - more like what they did on baseball and steroids - make people come up and embarrass themselves. That did finally get baseball to start doing more serious testing. I expect it will improve Toyota's behavior.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
When the inquiry was first announced, it was noted that several of the members of the committee are very 'pro' Toyota, so I don't expect anything shocking.
I pulled this chart from another forum. Apparently came from Sean Kane's company, Vehicle Safety Information Resource Center, LLC. Maybe Congress needs to be putting some heat on another auto manufacturer.
Mazda? I don't think so. Maybe charlatan/quack Kane needs to be on the receiving end of some heat. :sick: He's supposed to testify.
Moreover, some 2010 Camry owners complained that the car rolled back facing up slope as if it was in neutral when they took the foot off the brake to go to the gas pedal. Complaints on NHTSA website related to 2010 Camry roll back easily on slope can be found in complaints ODI # 10283276, 10310532,10310260, 10306566.
Man, we're really going for the bottom feeders now. OF COURSE any car will roll backward in "drive" if the upslope is steep enough. Use the damn parking brake if you're not deft enough with your feet to keep the car from rolling.
Then there's the case where many Toyota/Lexus vehicles have push button start. In those cars, Toyota deems it necessary to push the start/stop button for 3 secs before the engine shuts down. At 60 MPH, you're traveling at 88 feet/sec. That's 264 feet before the engine shuts down.
My employer just purchased a brand new Ford Edge with a push button start today. On Monday, I'll try to shut the engine down while driving and see what the procedure is. Then, I'll examine the owner's manual to see what it says about shutting down the engine.
Remember that on the Buick LaCrosse we also had, there were no instructions in the manual about how to kill the engine while driving with the optional pushbutton start (our car had a conventional key).
Why include your car falsely on the NHTSA website? Well if your question is meant to imply that there could not be a reason, I would counter by saying there could be a variety of reasons, not the least of which would be inclusion in a potential class action for a juicy settlement.
Edmunds, when it did its analysis, found many complaints to be duplicated or flat out unbelievable, don't forget.
Bingo!
Before the congressional hearings were announced I was hoping some engineering analyst would have that "ah-ha moment" and tell us what was wrong. With Congress involved, we will certainly get no resolution.
Agree again; with Congress this is going to be nothing more than posturing before the cameras, like they did with the Detroit 3 CEOs.
>The part (throttle body with the TAC attached) was $917.00 and the labor was about $350.00. This is just not right on a car with only 57K miles...I later discovered on some site that 50K miles is the average mileage these things peter out.
From a competing forum. So why hasn't this issue been talked about on the media news? This is exactly the part that was replaced in the Camry that was brought into the dealer with WOT. I think it is more of the cover up by Toyota.
Right, so you believe "some site?" Well, my 2004 Camry LE had passed 71K miles and I haven't had the slightest "blip" in throttle response. My 2005 Camry XLE is approaching 44K miles, and I've had ZERO problems with the whole car.
I have personally been the victim of Toyota dealer arrogance. When you have thousands of dollars tied up in Denso doo dads that do not work properly, it does not make one happy. And then to have some hack service manager say it all tests out fine, is rubbing salt into the wound.
I think many dealerships are the same, no matter whose manufacturer name is on the building. In my small burg, 6 chains handle nearly all of the makes sold here. The Toyota dealer also runs M-B, Saab, Subaru, Chrysler, Honda, Dodge, and Jeep dealerships (some sharing the same buildings). He has a lousy reputation, and I don't darken his door except for the free annual safety inspection (must be done in VA). Lots of people I know buy their cars from towns 20 or 30 miles away and have them serviced by independent shops once the warranty expires.
Well, my 2004 Camry LE had passed 71K miles and I haven't had the slightest "blip" in throttle response. My 2005 Camry XLE is approaching 44K miles, and I've had ZERO problems with the whole car.
Not sure of your point. Are you saying because you had good experience that makes all of those models trouble free? We have a known documented case of WOT that the dealer witnessed and found sensors??? and the throttle body controller defective. We have other reports of throttle body controller failures after xxx miles. Why isn't Toyota and the NHTSA focusing on Known failed parts?
Is it because they are trying to get off cheap with a shim and a prayer? I hope ABC and that confirmed case is tossed at old Toyoda to respond to. Toyota knows a lot more than they are saying. Why would you want to cover for Toyota if they are lying and not being honest with the consumers? I can understand if it is your livelihood. As an owner I would want to get to the bottom of the problem. After the message from Poway Toyota today I am concerned about my 2007 Sequoia.
Yes, my experience is anecdotal. My Camrys are too old to be under the cloud of suspicion that started with the redesigned '05 Avalon.
I wasn't referring to the guy from Jersey on ABC who seemed very credible, but rather the one who was complaining about the limp-home mode on his '05 Camry (same year as my newer one) and the cost of a replacement part.
I am in no way an employee of Toyota at either the manufacturer, dealer, or supplier level, just a perfectly satisfied customer of their cars. I still think this whole affair is being whipped up into a frenzy just like the Audi 5000 was pilloried 25 years ago.
And I agree with you that cars are getting too complicated, just not in the same way you do. I think multiple airbags, ABS, ESC, and DBW are a good thing, but I think Sync, Bluetooth, web access in cars, etc. are not needed for DRIVING. About the only high-tech item I like is a portable GPS, so I guess you can call me something of a Luddite. I do like manual transmissions also and have always had at least one in my fleet. Power steering is a must for a fast enough steering ratio in big cars and trucks, and power brakes are more necessary for disks than for old-school drums.
Thank you for agreeing with me that unintended acceleration is a problem not endemic to the drive by wire system. But I was talking about normal drive by wire system, not the problematic drive by wire system that Toyota installed to replace the cable-throttle system in it's vehicles resulting sharp rise of complaints of unintended acceleration even before the problem was broadcasted by the mass media. In other words there is no fundamental problem with how the DBW system operates but there are surely some problems with Toyota's unreliable DBW system that need to be fixed.
>with Congress this is going to be nothing more than posturing before the cameras, like they did with the Detroit 3 CEOs.
And the baseball steroids, tobacco execs lying, and many others. This is a campaign year and I don't expect much but spin. It's too bad they won't threaten to do something stern and follow through to get to the bottom of this.
Oh well, I guess it's easy to complain at the Detroit execs for flying to save time... Let's see if the congress folk never fly for expediency. Let me count. Hmmmm.
It's going to depend on the integrity of the legislators on the committee. We're in big trouble as far as getting to the bottom of the remaining cases of UA.
>there could be a variety of reasons, not the least of which would be inclusion in a potential class action for a juicy settlement.
>Edmunds, when it did its analysis, found many complaints to be duplicated or flat out unbelievable,
Where is the Edmund's analysis that the complaints were duplicitous or unbelieveable? DId they compare the rates of such with other brands or cars and problems they have, such as Honda's transmission problems? I have difficulty believing that Edmunds is trying to say there is no problem and that these NHSTA posts are ficticious.
It sounds like people posting more than once may be crying out for something to be done about a problem when is dangerous. They're not getting acknowledgement and help on the problem from the car company in question and they post again as a psychological begging for someone to help.
Why should Toyota even bother looking, they've already been tried by the media, publicly lynched and only now is the trial scheduled - the one Congress is holding to get some free air time.
I thought about keeping my '06 Avalon XLS and joining a class action suit of some sort, but the car had been perfect and the buyer had been waiting about a year for me to finally buy something new so I sold it to her. I like my new Highlander Limited, 1200 miles so far. The big tires are actually useful on our pothole-infested roads.
Is it too late for Toyota to recall the '92 Camry LE 4-cyl I owned that broke a motor mount with only 39k miles on it? Or the water pump on the new '87 Camry LE? That water pump left me on the side of I-95 fearing for me life. I've been cheated I tell you. They owe me.
"The attorneys, victims' families and their consultants say several clues suggest that engine electronics could cause Toyotas to malfunction.
For example, in 2002, the company issued a service bulletin to dealers warning that some Camrys "exhibit a surging" at speeds between 38 and 42 mph.
It called for revisions in the calibration of the "engine control module," the electronics that run the engine.
About the same time, the Camry owner's manual offered a warning that the installation of a mobile two-way radio system "could affect electronic systems" in the car, including the electronic throttle system.
And then in 2007, an investigation by federal regulators found that magnetic interference could cause an increase in engine speed in a Toyota Lexus ES 350."
These are the data I have collected from the NHTSA website related to complaints of Toyota Camry from 1990 to 2009. I only include numbers of complaint filed under Vehicle Speed Control with or without mentioning specific parts. Some complainants complained about unintended acceleration under other options such as transmission, so the actual figure of speed control complaints could be higher.
Year [Speed Control] [Pedal] [Cruise Control] [Cable or Linkage] = Speed Control Related Complaints 1990 7+8+0+1=16 1991 5+1+0+0=6 1992 7+4+2+2=15 1993 12+4+0+1=17 1994 11+2+2+2=17 1995 8+1+4+1=14 1996 18+2+11+1=32 1997 13+2+1+2=18 1998 32+12+4+7=55 1999 31+8+1+2=42 2000 39+11+2+3=55 2001 16+4+0+1=21 2002 135+20+4+5=164 (DBW first installed to replace cable/throttle control) 2003 121+19+3+0=143 2004 79+18+2+1=100 2005 75+9+3+0=87 2006 39+1+0+0=40 2007 143+24+15+0=173 ( Software change in attempt to improve Toyota's DBW) 2008 28+1+1+0=30 2009 56+5+0+0=61
You can see that the figures of complaints related to speed control peaked exactly after Toyota had made major changes to its vehicles.
2002 was the first year when Toyota replaced the cable-throttle system in Camry with their problematic drive by wire system. Complaints of speed control jumped from 21 in 2001 to 164 in 2002.
2007 was the year when Toyota made changes to the software that run the computer controlling the throttle in an attempt to improve the operation of its DBW system. Assuming Toyota did not make changes to the gas pedal and floor mat in the 2007 Camry comparing to the 2006 Camry, the all time high peak of complaints related to speed control in 2007 Camry does indicate the new software was likely to blame for the sudden surge of UA complaints.
Just because you own Toyotas with model/year that are less problematic than other model year doesn't mean you should discredit other Toyota owners with legitimate reasons for complaint by maligning them as lynchers.
The host did a great job in showing that problems in electronics and software in Toyota's DBW system are real but was not taken seriously enough by Toyota to protect the lives of its customers.
beach....you may be able to get in on whatever Toyota ends up offering. Some of these reports go back to 1999. So, you're vehicles would fall into that category.
Busted motor mounts at 39K? There's another example of a lack of engineering testing. Motor mounts should last for the life of the car.
I saw this comment on another site. Is it possible that computers in vehicles do too much?
"The primary purpose of the "Black Box" on most cars is to be able to deny warranty repair on cars that have been abused by their owners. Toyota may or may not be able to re-create the events immediately prior to a crash. Lawyers stand to make Millions if they can convince enough potential jurors that Toyota was negligent, and with the help of a willing media to fan the flames it looks like Toyota will lose in almost any venue. Funny thing is that the defective equipment in question was because of the regulatory actions of the Federal Government and its regulation of the auto industry. Very soon those very same Government agencies will force automakers to equip all cars and light trucks with something called Stability Control. This new system will not just remove the operators direct control of the throttle, it will also defeat steering inputs of the operator,and braking inputs of the operator, whenever the onboard computer decides that the car is being driven too agressively. If the computer makes a bad decision you may die without being able to correct the control of the automobile. Believe it or not these designs have become law and any future endangerment by these systems to the motoring public will rest at the feet of the same acencies that are making such a stink about the failures at Toyota."
"So, you'll probably get your wish about car prices rising."
Well, I can't say I'm thrilled about higher prices. I would just like to get quality for the money spent. Things seem to cost plenty but are cheaply made. We've been thinking of buying a new refrigerator, and the same thing is happening with those. They are pricey, but there are a lot of cheap materials used and they don't last nearly as long as they once did.
I agree that Toyota is going to be in a difficult situation. They are going to have to spend a lot of money, while trying to stay competitive on pricing.
Why should Toyota even bother looking, they've already been tried by the media, publicly lynched and only now is the trial scheduled - the one Congress is holding to get some free air time.
Probably some truth to that. But the issue that needs to be addressed is State Farm's stats that clearly showed a noticeable increase in UA claims after Toyota implemented DBW (which also pre-dates the recalled vehicles). Toyoya needs to explain that and NHTSA needs to explain why they sat on their [non-permissible content removed] with the data.
"This scorched earth approach that Toyota has taken in dealing with Mr Biller speaks volumes," Mr Allen said. "If they claim that nothing in these boxes shows anything, then what's the problem?"
Maybe these hearings are going to be more interesting than they promised at first.
Where is the Edmund's analysis that the complaints were duplicitous or unbelievable?
Right here and here. They weren't just looking at Toyota complaints but rather all complaints. Here are two of my favorites:
"MY CADILLAC STS MAKES A FARTING NOISE AT TIMES. CADILLAC CANNOT TELL ME WHAT IS CAUSING THIS NOISE."
"THE CONTACT [telephone interviewee] OWNS A 2007 PONTIAC SOLSTICE. WHILE DRIVING 40 MPH WITH A BOAT IN TOW, THE VEHICLE BEGAN TO SHAKE, THE A-FRAME FAILED, AND THE MAIN FRAME COLLAPSED. THE CONTACT LOST CONTROL AND THE BOAT DETACHED FROM THE VEHICLE. THE VEHICLE CAME TO A STOP WHEN IT CRASHED INTO A BRIDGE."
About the same time, the Camry owner's manual offered a warning that the installation of a mobile two-way radio system "could affect electronic systems" in the car, including the electronic throttle system.
IIRC, Toyota has had this warning before throttle-by-wire. I'll have to check a 1997 Camry manual that I still have. The concern was interference with systems like the airbags.
The gas pedal and floor mat design were changed with the 2007model. I know this because I have previous-generation Camrys. Also the 2007 models were sold for about a year and a half, beginning in March 2006. Both the 2006 and 2008 model years were short (only about half a year).
Sounds like some exaggeration from one of those ultra-right-wing organizations. Stability control has been shown to be very effective and is now regarded as a lifesaver. That's why the system will be mandated for nearly all 2012 models.
The black box is used for recording events leading up to a crash, and includes items like airbag deployment, seat belt use, speed, etc. at and a few seconds before a significant crash.
Without reading the article in its entirety (thanks for the link), your quotes are misleading. Allen is representing Biller, so of course he's going to make inflammatory comments like those.
What I'd like to know is how Biller, once fired, managed to sneak out documents belonging to his former employer. This in itself raises ethical questions about Biller's tactics. I don't think he'll end up being hailed as a whistleblower, but we'll soon find out.
Well, those excerpts made my night. They are funny. The jeep owner complaining about water spray kicked up behind the Jeep on rainy pavement was great. The guy allegedly revving his truck back into the water while ramping a jet ski on a trailer was amazing. But I really want to see the Solstice owner who pulls a boat with that car. Surely it's not intended to trailer anything over 250 pounds.
The comments by posters after the two items you posted are great. Some of the guys sound like service writers at garages.
Sounds like some exaggeration from one of those ultra-right-wing organizations.
I heard a Right Wing talk show host put forth the idea that the whole Toyota debacle is the Obama administration trying to get government motors back on top.
As far as Stability control, ABS and traction control, they all take away control of the vehicle from the driver. My opinion is they are for people that should not be allowed to have a car on the road. ABS is an abomination driving on ice. There should be a switch on the dash that turns all that crap on. It should be marked for incompetent drivers.
I once saw a photograph, with accompanying story, of a guy who just got a new boat and trailer. The dealer had told him to be sure not to get the trailer too far into the water. The photo showed where the guy had driven down the boat ramp pulling the trailer behind him. The trailer was barely in the water but his truck was completely under.
Another funny story was about a witness describing a fireworks accident. He said the gentleman lit a rocket and turned to run when the rocket exploded, burning all the hair off the gentleman's hind legs !! I laugh every time I remember it.
can someone explain to me why Toyota is let off so easy with the estimated mpg claims that no one ever sees in real life?. Here is what Edmunds has to say, it doesnt add up folks!
Not surprisingly, the onboard fuel economy gauges also differed from reality. While the others ranged from 1 mpg better than reality to 3 mpg worse, the Toyota Prius was woefully inaccurate. On the back-road route, the Prius' computer claimed it was getting 6.8 mpg (14 percent) better than it actually was, while the city yielded a 5.4-mpg (11 percent) over-report. This sort of shenanigan could mean a higher customer satisfaction score from owners who think they're getting better mileage than they actually are. This is a shame given the Prius' actual fuel economy dominance.
windy....in fairness, hybrids and their proclaimed MPG is highly over rated. Generally speaking, I'd always check manually what MPG is. Some manufacture's computers are more accurate than others. But, Toyota isn't alone in having inaccurate computers figuring MPG.
explorer.....now that's interesting....a variable volume fuel tank? I'm probably missing something that's easily explainable. But, how does a fuel tank have "variable volume"? How does it change sizes? And, why is it variable volume?
gagrice....while Toyota doesn't need me to criticize their engineering efforts (or, lack thereof). But, talk about some sort of variable size gas tank that has a bladder that contracts and expands, that seems like a design that's just begging for some sort of malfunction.
I would suggest when Edmund's did it's own check of their fleet of 12 Toyota cars .Edmund's was at a loss to find it too had as many mat/accelerator problems. This is not to suggest Edmund's lied about it's findings , in fact how many Toyota owners have found the same thing. The idea a CHIP officer would loose his life in a Lexus because he could not react to his mat sticking with family on board ? This is not a money grab or GM going out to set the Toyota up ,or the UAW getting even for the things that are going on with Toyota. This my friend is not a natural disaster it is man made and Toyota will find not one or two that are the same but thousands out of all the recalls it will answer for the deaths of some.
The video and the transcript says that Edmunds looked at 12 random cars in their long term road test fleet. Not 12 Toyotas.
There have been 11 Toyotas in the Edmunds long term fleet and two Lexus models per an Inside Line search. Currently there's one Lexus and one Toyota in the test fleet. (link)
It has caused cars to stall if the lid is not on tight. I guess depending on the weather it will contract as much as a gallon or more. What happens if the bladder springs a leak? I guess you buy a new gas tank.
Correct, the fact that the speed had nothing to do with the mileage that went on the car as it went down the road, is hard to call it the odometer. The off set still ran from the speed , would you agree ?Then you would think is came from a transmission sensor,that sends the information to the speedometer that in turn feeds the Odometer. Thank you for you correction.
Comments
houdini.....I think I mentioned my older sister bought an Audi 5000 right before all the sudden acceleration news hit. Resale took a huge tumble and she was stuck with the car much longer than she wanted. For all intents and purposes, she drove it until the wheels fell off since she really had no choice. The value of it had dropped so dramatically that she only had one choice.....drive it until it was worth nothing.
That was her first go round with a German sourced car. While I was just a kid, I do remember it being quite nice. But, I also remember her cursing it for the high maintenance costs, and her plight of not being able to rid herself of it. IIRC, there was a point in time when there wasn't a dealership anywhere within driving distance of us who would actually want it in trade. They just didn't want it.
She had advertised it in the newspaper after about 3 years. Even then, she said the offers she got for it were ridiculous....even if someone would contact her about it, which wasn't more than one or two people looking for a "steal".
Now, I don't know if that will happen with Toyotas. But, I do think there's much more credible evidence that Toyota/Lexus has some severe safety issues, be they UA, steering problems or braking problems.
Whereas for Audi, it was merely a case where the pedals were engineered close together (prompting people to hit the accelerator when they wanted to hit the brake). Still, that almost totally drove Audi out of business in the U.S.
That won't happen to Toyota. But, I think they're looking at some very lean years in the future. They're going to be facing sizable fines, here and probably worldwide. Then, they have to offer some sort of a fix for all those models. I still think it's going to end up being a reflash of their electronics for most of their models and makes. Then, there are the lawsuits....for everything from wrongful death, to accidents and injuries, to reduced resale values. Those will take years to sort out.
But, the only thing Toyota can do is to take the bitter pills they're going to have to swallow (starting with Mr. Toyoda's meeting with Congress) and move as quickly as they can to rectify all the damage they've done.
I'm not expecting anything magical out of Congress - more like what they did on baseball and steroids - make people come up and embarrass themselves. That did finally get baseball to start doing more serious testing. I expect it will improve Toyota's behavior.
some committee member info here
Mazda? I don't think so. Maybe charlatan/quack Kane needs to be on the receiving end of some heat. :sick: He's supposed to testify.
Man, we're really going for the bottom feeders now. OF COURSE any car will roll backward in "drive" if the upslope is steep enough. Use the damn parking brake if you're not deft enough with your feet to keep the car from rolling.
My employer just purchased a brand new Ford Edge with a push button start today. On Monday, I'll try to shut the engine down while driving and see what the procedure is. Then, I'll examine the owner's manual to see what it says about shutting down the engine.
Remember that on the Buick LaCrosse we also had, there were no instructions in the manual about how to kill the engine while driving with the optional pushbutton start (our car had a conventional key).
No, it's old news. Biller is going to testify apparently, so we'll see if he lives up to my characterization of him. :sick:
Whoa, I never thought we'd agree on something!
Edmunds, when it did its analysis, found many complaints to be duplicated or flat out unbelievable, don't forget.
Bingo!
Before the congressional hearings were announced I was hoping some engineering analyst would have that "ah-ha moment" and tell us what was wrong. With Congress involved, we will certainly get no resolution.
Agree again; with Congress this is going to be nothing more than posturing before the cameras, like they did with the Detroit 3 CEOs.
From a competing forum. So why hasn't this issue been talked about on the media news? This is exactly the part that was replaced in the Camry that was brought into the dealer with WOT. I think it is more of the cover up by Toyota.
Right, so you believe "some site?" Well, my 2004 Camry LE had passed 71K miles and I haven't had the slightest "blip" in throttle response. My 2005 Camry XLE is approaching 44K miles, and I've had ZERO problems with the whole car.
I think many dealerships are the same, no matter whose manufacturer name is on the building. In my small burg, 6 chains handle nearly all of the makes sold here. The Toyota dealer also runs M-B, Saab, Subaru, Chrysler, Honda, Dodge, and Jeep dealerships (some sharing the same buildings). He has a lousy reputation, and I don't darken his door except for the free annual safety inspection (must be done in VA). Lots of people I know buy their cars from towns 20 or 30 miles away and have them serviced by independent shops once the warranty expires.
Not sure of your point. Are you saying because you had good experience that makes all of those models trouble free? We have a known documented case of WOT that the dealer witnessed and found sensors??? and the throttle body controller defective. We have other reports of throttle body controller failures after xxx miles. Why isn't Toyota and the NHTSA focusing on Known failed parts?
Is it because they are trying to get off cheap with a shim and a prayer? I hope ABC and that confirmed case is tossed at old Toyoda to respond to. Toyota knows a lot more than they are saying. Why would you want to cover for Toyota if they are lying and not being honest with the consumers? I can understand if it is your livelihood. As an owner I would want to get to the bottom of the problem. After the message from Poway Toyota today I am concerned about my 2007 Sequoia.
I wasn't referring to the guy from Jersey on ABC who seemed very credible, but rather the one who was complaining about the limp-home mode on his '05 Camry (same year as my newer one) and the cost of a replacement part.
I am in no way an employee of Toyota at either the manufacturer, dealer, or supplier level, just a perfectly satisfied customer of their cars. I still think this whole affair is being whipped up into a frenzy just like the Audi 5000 was pilloried 25 years ago.
And I agree with you that cars are getting too complicated, just not in the same way you do. I think multiple airbags, ABS, ESC, and DBW are a good thing, but I think Sync, Bluetooth, web access in cars, etc. are not needed for DRIVING. About the only high-tech item I like is a portable GPS, so I guess you can call me something of a Luddite. I do like manual transmissions also and have always had at least one in my fleet. Power steering is a must for a fast enough steering ratio in big cars and trucks, and power brakes are more necessary for disks than for old-school drums.
In other words there is no fundamental problem with how the DBW system operates but there are surely some problems with Toyota's unreliable DBW system that need to be fixed.
And the baseball steroids, tobacco execs lying, and many others. This is a campaign year and I don't expect much but spin. It's too bad they won't threaten to do something stern and follow through to get to the bottom of this.
Oh well, I guess it's easy to complain at the Detroit execs for flying to save time... Let's see if the congress folk never fly for expediency. Let me count. Hmmmm.
It's going to depend on the integrity of the legislators on the committee. We're in big trouble as far as getting to the bottom of the remaining cases of UA.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
>Edmunds, when it did its analysis, found many complaints to be duplicated or flat out unbelievable,
Where is the Edmund's analysis that the complaints were duplicitous or unbelieveable?
DId they compare the rates of such with other brands or cars and problems they have, such as Honda's transmission problems? I have difficulty believing that Edmunds is trying to say there is no problem and that these NHSTA posts are ficticious.
It sounds like people posting more than once may be crying out for something to be done about a problem when is dangerous. They're not getting acknowledgement and help on the problem from the car company in question and they post again as a psychological begging for someone to help.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Why should Toyota even bother looking, they've already been tried by the media, publicly lynched and only now is the trial scheduled - the one Congress is holding to get some free air time.
I thought about keeping my '06 Avalon XLS and joining a class action suit of some sort, but the car had been perfect and the buyer had been waiting about a year for me to finally buy something new so I sold it to her. I like my new Highlander Limited, 1200 miles so far. The big tires are actually useful on our pothole-infested roads.
Is it too late for Toyota to recall the '92 Camry LE 4-cyl I owned that broke a motor mount with only 39k miles on it? Or the water pump on the new '87 Camry LE? That water pump left me on the side of I-95 fearing for me life. I've been cheated I tell you. They owe me.
John
For example, in 2002, the company issued a service bulletin to dealers warning that some Camrys "exhibit a surging" at speeds between 38 and 42 mph.
It called for revisions in the calibration of the "engine control module," the electronics that run the engine.
About the same time, the Camry owner's manual offered a warning that the installation of a mobile two-way radio system "could affect electronic systems" in the car, including the electronic throttle system.
And then in 2007, an investigation by federal regulators found that magnetic interference could cause an increase in engine speed in a Toyota Lexus ES 350."
Runaway Camry crashes raise ‘huge red flag’ (MSNBC)
Besides the feeding frenzy in here, just wait until Congress sits down with Toyota execs:
A Glimpse of the Feeding Frenzy Toyota Faces (AutoObserver)
Year [Speed Control] [Pedal] [Cruise Control] [Cable or Linkage] = Speed Control Related Complaints
1990 7+8+0+1=16
1991 5+1+0+0=6
1992 7+4+2+2=15
1993 12+4+0+1=17
1994 11+2+2+2=17
1995 8+1+4+1=14
1996 18+2+11+1=32
1997 13+2+1+2=18
1998 32+12+4+7=55
1999 31+8+1+2=42
2000 39+11+2+3=55
2001 16+4+0+1=21
2002 135+20+4+5=164 (DBW first installed to replace cable/throttle control)
2003 121+19+3+0=143
2004 79+18+2+1=100
2005 75+9+3+0=87
2006 39+1+0+0=40
2007 143+24+15+0=173 ( Software change in attempt to improve Toyota's DBW)
2008 28+1+1+0=30
2009 56+5+0+0=61
You can see that the figures of complaints related to speed control peaked exactly after Toyota had made major changes to its vehicles.
2002 was the first year when Toyota replaced the cable-throttle system in Camry with their problematic drive by wire system. Complaints of speed control jumped from 21 in 2001 to 164 in 2002.
2007 was the year when Toyota made changes to the software that run the computer controlling the throttle in an attempt to improve the operation of its DBW system. Assuming Toyota did not make changes to the gas pedal and floor mat in the 2007 Camry comparing to the 2006 Camry, the all time high peak of complaints related to speed control in 2007 Camry does indicate the new software was likely to blame for the sudden surge of UA complaints.
Just because you own Toyotas with model/year that are less problematic than other model year doesn't mean you should discredit other Toyota owners with legitimate reasons for complaint by maligning them as lynchers.
The host did a great job in showing that problems in electronics and software in Toyota's DBW system are real but was not taken seriously enough by Toyota to protect the lives of its customers.
Busted motor mounts at 39K? There's another example of a lack of engineering testing. Motor mounts should last for the life of the car.
Toyota can kiss my [non-permissible content removed]. Lying scumbags. I'd like to stuff a floormat into Mr Toyodas pie hole. Pardon my language.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
"The primary purpose of the "Black Box" on most cars is to be able to deny warranty repair on cars that have been abused by their owners. Toyota may or may not be able to re-create the events immediately prior to a crash. Lawyers stand to make Millions if they can convince enough potential jurors that Toyota was negligent, and with the help of a willing media to fan the flames it looks like Toyota will lose in almost any venue. Funny thing is that the defective equipment in question was because of the regulatory actions of the Federal Government and its regulation of the auto industry. Very soon those very same Government agencies will force automakers to equip all cars and light trucks with something called Stability Control. This new system will not just remove the operators direct control of the throttle, it will also defeat steering inputs of the operator,and braking inputs of the operator, whenever the onboard computer decides that the car is being driven too agressively. If the computer makes a bad decision you may die without being able to correct the control of the automobile. Believe it or not these designs have become law and any future endangerment by these systems to the motoring public will rest at the feet of the same acencies that are making such a stink about the failures at Toyota."
Well, I can't say I'm thrilled about higher prices. I would just like to get quality for the money spent. Things seem to cost plenty but are cheaply made. We've been thinking of buying a new refrigerator, and the same thing is happening with those. They are pricey, but there are a lot of cheap materials used and they don't last nearly as long as they once did.
I agree that Toyota is going to be in a difficult situation. They are going to have to spend a lot of money, while trying to stay competitive on pricing.
Probably some truth to that. But the issue that needs to be addressed is State Farm's stats that clearly showed a noticeable increase in UA claims after Toyota implemented DBW (which also pre-dates the recalled vehicles). Toyoya needs to explain that and NHTSA needs to explain why they sat on their [non-permissible content removed] with the data.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f7f66a9e-1dbe-11df-9e98-00144feab49a.html
This month an arbitrator barred Mr Biller from going public with the documents, but, in spite of Toyota's vehement denials of his allegations, the papers will soon be unsealed.
"This scorched earth approach that Toyota has taken in dealing with Mr Biller speaks volumes," Mr Allen said. "If they claim that nothing in these boxes shows anything, then what's the problem?"
Maybe these hearings are going to be more interesting than they promised at first.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Where is the Edmund's analysis that the complaints were duplicitous or unbelievable?
Right here and here. They weren't just looking at Toyota complaints but rather all complaints. Here are two of my favorites:
"MY CADILLAC STS MAKES A FARTING NOISE AT TIMES. CADILLAC CANNOT TELL ME WHAT IS CAUSING THIS NOISE."
"THE CONTACT [telephone interviewee] OWNS A 2007 PONTIAC SOLSTICE. WHILE DRIVING 40 MPH WITH A BOAT IN TOW, THE VEHICLE BEGAN TO SHAKE, THE A-FRAME FAILED, AND THE MAIN FRAME COLLAPSED. THE CONTACT LOST CONTROL AND THE BOAT DETACHED FROM THE VEHICLE. THE VEHICLE CAME TO A STOP WHEN IT CRASHED INTO A BRIDGE."
IIRC, Toyota has had this warning before throttle-by-wire. I'll have to check a 1997 Camry manual that I still have. The concern was interference with systems like the airbags.
The black box is used for recording events leading up to a crash, and includes items like airbag deployment, seat belt use, speed, etc. at and a few seconds before a significant crash.
Two different animals here.
What I'd like to know is how Biller, once fired, managed to sneak out documents belonging to his former employer. This in itself raises ethical questions about Biller's tactics. I don't think he'll end up being hailed as a whistleblower, but we'll soon find out.
The comments by posters after the two items you posted are great. Some of the guys sound like service writers at garages.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I heard a Right Wing talk show host put forth the idea that the whole Toyota debacle is the Obama administration trying to get government motors back on top.
As far as Stability control, ABS and traction control, they all take away control of the vehicle from the driver. My opinion is they are for people that should not be allowed to have a car on the road. ABS is an abomination driving on ice. There should be a switch on the dash that turns all that crap on. It should be marked for incompetent drivers.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Not surprisingly, the onboard fuel economy gauges also differed from reality. While the others ranged from 1 mpg better than reality to 3 mpg worse, the Toyota Prius was woefully inaccurate. On the back-road route, the Prius' computer claimed it was getting 6.8 mpg (14 percent) better than it actually was, while the city yielded a 5.4-mpg (11 percent) over-report. This sort of shenanigan could mean a higher customer satisfaction score from owners who think they're getting better mileage than they actually are. This is a shame given the Prius' actual fuel economy dominance.
There have been 11 Toyotas in the Edmunds long term fleet and two Lexus models per an Inside Line search.
Currently there's one Lexus and one Toyota in the test fleet. (link)
Sticky Throttle Feature: Pedals and Floor Mats Video (1/30/10)