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Comments
Still doesn't seem fair. The dealers in this region decided to go on their own and find an outside, aftermarket cruise control. Toyota even loses revenue, so I doubt it has their blessing, they probably had no choice (dealer lobbies are powerful).
I don't see why they couldn't use Toyota parts. I bought a car and had cruise installed after the purchase, but I asked for a got OEM parts. It wasn't even expensive, a couple hundred or so IIRC.
As for dealers, they are independently owned and operated. I'm sure Toyota has guidelines and agreements, but I doubt they have much control if a dealer goes aftermarket to install things like:
* moonroof
* cruise control
* DVD players
* canvas landau roof
etc.
Doesn't seem fair (at all) to blame Toyota if a DVD gets stuck in a DVD player made by an outsider.
Or in a more extreme case - what if a car rolls over, the roof gets crushed, but it's because an aftermarket moonroof installer cut out a major B-pillar support beam to install a moonroof.
Would that be a manufacturer's fault?
I don't think so.
If toyota owns Denso that makes the DVD player why not? It is part of the warranty. Don't expect toyota to cover your DVD player after the warranty is gone. No matter who made it.
I do agree in the case in MN that toyota is not likely responsible. They will get the negative media attention. Maybe the automakers will look a bit closer at what their dealers install that could affect the operation of the vehicle. I know the CC on my 1978 Honda Accord was dealer installed and NEVER worked right from day one. I gave up on it.
Toyota sells vehicles in many countries, has excellent legal attorneys, and should have these dealership agreements/contracts legally perfected tightly controlled quite well.
Seems biggest question is - what is precisely in those/these dealership contracts??
Not to mention Denso would be OEM because they supply the original parts, not aftermarket.
But in this case we're talking about an aftermarket supplier. So imagine a DVD player made by, say, Samsung, a Korean supplier, goes bad. I don't see how that's Toyota's liability. It's the dealer's or the supplier's.
2nd-ly, Take a look at Harley-Davidson and their dealer network. If a manufacturer could be held liable for the actions of its dealers (who install non-Harley options hourly on bikes), Harley would have disappeared years ago... So, I find it difficult to believe anyone would prevail against Toyota "proper" in a lawsuit aimed at a dealer installed feature UNLESS Toyota signed off on the accessory/item being installed.
And, I doubt that is the case. And remember, Toyota the manufacturer is a different company from the 4 or so US Toyota automobile distributors in the USA.
Depending on what the agreement is, Toyota could be on the hook.
For example, if the cruise control was represented as 'Toyota authorized'.
Depending on what the agreement is, Toyota could be on the hook.
For example, if the cruise control was represented as 'Toyota authorized'.
Oh, I completely agree with you...But, there will have to be a clear chain of evidence showing Toyota/manufacturer or Toyota/distributor actually "authorized" the components....which they may indeed have done, but at this point is only a big "IF". Just because a dealer represented it as such means very little.
In the end... That's an issue for the courts to decide.
probably why so few were listed in the recall.
Rostra has nothing to do with Toyota though, and Toyota doesn't "authorize" the use of Rostra cruise in its cars. But it is very common for Toyota dealers everywhere (including right here in California) to install Rostra cruise units on Toyota models and trims for which factory cruise is unavailable (really common examples were all the early Scion xA and xB models, none of which had factory cruise available). I have always thought that Toyota was really stupid not to just offer and equip cars with cruise control for all models and trims regardless of their price point, as it is just losing money to the Rostras of the world by not doing so.
I sure hope there isn't any legal basis for holding Toyota accountable for this failure of the Rostra unit - they have nothing to do with its design or construction. It is just like the Samsung or aftermarket moonroof examples above.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But basically it had to be OE parts installed when the car was still new, for Subaru to honor it with their warranty.
I'm pretty certain Toyota has a similar policy and dealers are well aware of it.
Nowadays tuners like Lingenfelter will warranty their engine items, but they cover it themselves, not, say, GM in the case of a tuned Corvette.
The car owner does have to take some responsibility in maintaining a vehicle in safe condition. Did the car act up prior to this accident? If so did he take it to a mechanic to check out? If it turns out he had one of the CC units that had a known problem, the OEM that built it would be implicated. I expect the state of MN to get hit the hardest on this one.
What i meant to write was that the DX model did not offer cruise control as a factory option, so those are probably the only ones affected by the aftermarket cruise control.
Cruise control was standard on all other models.
“By building Tacoma in Texas, we are able to consolidate pickup truck production in the United States under one roof, allowing us to fully utilize the plant’s capacity.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38645077/ns/business-autos/
Olivia Alair, a Transportation Department spokeswoman, said the review of the black boxes was "one small part" of the investigation, which is expected to be completed later in the fall.
Alair said they were still at an "early period in the investigation" and experts with NASA and NHTSA were "conducting research at labs across the United States to determine whether there are potential electronic or software defects in Toyotas that can cause unintended acceleration."
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and NHTSA Administrator David Strickland briefed members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee on the findings of the government review. LaHood and Strickland declined comment following the meeting.
Rep. Bart Stupak, a Michigan Democrat, who has led a House investigation into the Toyota recalls, said following the briefing that the findings did not settle the issue of whether electronics could be a culprit. "We've got a long ways to go. We are not ready to make a conclusion one way or another," Stupak told reporters.
More of the same wishful thinking on the part of Toyota fans. Similar to the info WSJ spewed that was refuted by NHTSA.
"Five of the 58 black box recorders that NHTSA examined had no data. Of the remaining 53, 35 indicated that the brakes were not applied. Fourteen more showed evidence of partial braking. Data was inclusive on one black box, and another included evidence from an unrelated crash. The remaining two black boxes reportedly showed evidence of simultaneous brake and throttle application."
>NHTSA also disclosed it is partnering with NASA in Auburn Hills in researching the issue. NHTSA and NASA are conducting vehicle tests at the Chrysler Group LLC Test Facility in Auburn Hills to determine whether electromagnetic interference may play a role in causing unintended acceleration.
From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100810/AUTO01/8100419/1361/NHTSA--No-evidence-o- - - f-Toyota-electronics-problems#ixzz0wFc5cNCR
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You might have missed the tinhat paranoia allusion in my sarcasm?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
i won't get any more technical than that.
35 - no brakes
14 - partial braking
1 - inconclusive
1 - data from unrelated crash (whatever that means)
2 - brakes + throttle
So we're really down to just 2 cases.
Automotive News headline was "US study finds driver error in most Toyota accidents", so hold the spin accusations. Reverse spin is more like it.
They also said NHTSA "saw no evidence of electronics-related causes for the accidents in reviewing the vehicle recorders".
Wonder if the 2 cases where brakes and throttle were applied has the recalled CTS pedals?
Or piles of floormats?
2.Holding down the ignition button for 3 sec to switch off - that to me is plain ridiculous. Wonder why they dont change that. They can have different push buttons for start and stop--green one for start and red one for stop with each button labeled clearly and boldly. Beats me why they dont do this. Holding down 3 sec to switch off-- I dont know how many folks would even think of that especially in an emergency situation.
And Saylor had a similar car with the same on/off button, so it wasn't entirely unfamiliar to him.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/28/business/la-fi-toyota-deaths-mainbar28-2- 010feb28
Then make up your mind, could DRIVER ERROR really caused these nasty crashes ? Could those drivers be really so careless that they failed even to press the brakes or failed to change their wrong pedal that result in such HIGH SPEED crashes ?
Its an insult to these victims and their families when one claim its driver not braking or pressing the wrong pedal that results in their deaths.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-deaths-list28-2010feb28-pictures,0,- - 131320.photogallery
NHTSA says there is a lot more research ahead. And the WSJ had a different spin with ALL cases blamed on driver error. Now the latest has some hit brake, some hit both. And what about the 100s of accidents prior to the EDR being put in the vehicles? Those reports started flowing into the ODI, long before toyota figured out how to build an EDR that would work. I am not convinced it works now. If it does not store WOT data as proven by Dr. Gilbert.
PS
If toyota's EDR is not ready for primetime as they have admitted. Why is it being used as evidence. And if it is not ready, maybe their ECUs are also flaky.
The pictures all look competent to me.
The grasping of straws on the phrase that "so far" no flaws have been found.
I have had many computer crashes through the years. The usual result is there's no sign left of what caused the software to crash after the crash occurred. Same for toyota-lexus' software/firmware/hardware incompatibility. There was something wrong. And the toyota company now has accessed most of the cars in the pedal panic and "checked" the software and corrected it--that's why we are hearing fewer cases.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There have not been any more. In my community, there are so many Toyotas on the road - I could stand on any street corner and see them plow in to each other if they were defective. And you cannot ignore the average age of those drivers involved. It's very high.
Audi - from their same SUA situation back in the 70s, have still not been proven guilty.
There will always be those who want a death wish for Toyota. It's my thinking they will come out just fine.
You obviously have not been around people on medication, and those who are in their 70's, 80's and 90's still behind the wheel of an automobile. Hang out in Florida or Palm Springs, CA for a while. You would be changing the content of your post.
Better check your sources. They failed you on that one.
Although Toyota has repeatedly said its unintended acceleration problems were not the fault of electronic gremlins, three UK engineers have found proof the issue does in fact stem from electromagnetic interference (EMI).
The British engineers say the faults may not have been detected by Toyota’s own testing procedures, but have found through their own research that not all of Toyota’s on-board electronics are properly protected from EMI.
“Thirty years’ empirical evidence overwhelmingly points to (sudden acceleration) being caused by electronic system faults undetectable by inspection or testing,” said UK-based engineering consultant, Mr Keith Armstrong.
Mr Armstrong and his two colleagues, Antony Anderson and Brian Kirk, will travel to the United States today where they will report their findings to National Highway Traffic Safety Administrations (NHTSA) officials.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/62258/uk-engineers-find-toyotas-unintended-accelerat- ion-problems-stem-from-emi/
Audi was a design problem with ergonomics. No electronics involved.
Of course that's because it enables dumping on Toyota.
I'll bet if GM cars were in the same situation it would be driver error. :P
I'm sure there's NO affect on perception due to the car company. :shades:
There will always be those who want a death wish for Toyota. It's my thinking they will come out just fine.
I daresay their quality descending into crappy is going to hurt them a lot more than SUA.
Although NHTSA subsequently assured Rep. Waxman that they had access to technical expertise, and Secretary LaHood amended DOT’s testimony to clarify that NHTSA had two electrical engineers on staff, the issue of NHTSA’s technical capabilities continued to draw scrutiny and pressure from Capitol Hill.
In March, DOT announced that the National Research Council (NRC) and its Transportation Research Board had been tasked to form a “Committee on Electronic Vehicle Controls and Unintended Acceleration.” The project began on 26 March, with a projected 15-month review leading to a final report.
It was also announced that NHTSA had enlisted NASA engineers with expertise in computer-controlled systems, electromagnetic interference and software reliability to help support their ongoing investigation into the Toyota unintended vehicle acceleration issue.
In April, IEEE-USA sent a letter to Secretary Lahood stating that two electrical engineers was “still inadequate to allow the agency to perform the vital task of ensuring vehicle safety.” IEEE-USA recommended that NHTSA increase the number of electrical, electronics, computer and software engineers within NHTSA
http://www.todaysengineer.org/2010/Aug/NHTSA.asp
After the first blush of mass hysteria, the reported incidences have all but evaporated; Toyota sales are up and the few, the proud, the obsessed Toyota critics continue to scratch for evidence of a problem. Any problem. And any evidence. But there isn't any except these three media hungry guys in England who say they've invented a carburator that runs on water. Oops, wrong story. Sorry.
John
And where is this "mysterious EMI signal" even coming from?
You believe THESE U.K. guys have figured out what no one in the USA or NASA could figure out?
I'll believe it when I see a demonstration of them causing UA with EMI.
Until then, I call B.S., also know as poppycock.
By the way, NHTSA found they could disrupt the ECU in Toyota cars several years ago. They dismissed it in some sort of deal with Toyota. That was part of the broohaha when the doo doo hit the fan with Toyota and Congress. If EMI is no big deal why spend millions on a test facility for just that?
Toyota is building an EMI test facility in Ann Arbor, Mich., and already has one in Japan.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2010-02-23-Electromagnetic23_CV_N.htm
That could be part of the problem. Neither Gagrice or me watch TV.
The net is way more entertaining. :shades:
True Blood - vampire gore and nudity.
I Survived - true stories told by the people who lived the horror and somehow lived.
NFL Football - the greatest thing since the wheel was invented.
Chelsea Lately - one of the funniest women ever to grace Planet Earf.
Just about any show on Crime and Investigation Network.
Nat Geo and Discovery channels.
If you are missing out on these shows, your life could be FAR more entertaining.