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Toyota Fearing Hyundai?
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http://www.forbes.com/business/global/2005/0425/024_2.html
"Chung's first step: Replace the bean counters in top management with engineers."
Second, how can they sell their quality and fully equipped cars at such a low price?
The cost of living in South Korea is low compared to the US or Japan; Korean autoworkers (militant unions and all) get something like $7 an hour, which is pretty nice for there. Also, the Asian financial crisis weakened the Korean won for a while, giving Hyundai and other Korean builders a price advantage. The won has strengthened in the last year or two, cramping Hyundai's export business somewhat.
for sporty cars, the tC won for us due to our old tibby had tranny issues at 103,000 miles :mad:
Sonata, well, to me, is the best Sedan deal right now, in it's class, due to content alone.
I can get a 34MPG I-4 Sonata sedan for the price of many compacts.
have a good one. Great story.
Rather, I believe the secret to the lower prices has to do with the concept of "lifetime employment" found widely throughout Japan and South Korea. In this system, workers typically live in a company town (Hyundai-->Ulsan and Toyota-->Toyoda City) and accept lower pay but buy everything at subsidized prices. Since one company buying volume amounts of goods will cost less than each worker buying it individally, the company saves tremendously on labor costs in the long run. And because the rate of turnover is low under this system, employees also have higher morale and job security. GM and Ford could learn a lesson or two by observing these two cities. If you're interested, a good book that explains this concept in more depth is Confucius Lives Next Door.
Rocky
None of this requires reinventing the wheel, they already exist.
Yes diesel cost more in most places, but it is a variable, it can change over night.
With an average 30% increase in MPG it won’t take long to make up the difference.
How did you define "best"? That's a subjective view, and not everyone will hold the same opinion, obviously.
Yet, people buy Camry and Accord more than Sonata. Why is that? I don't really understand.
They probably don't agree with you. It does happen, you know.
Sonata is far better in quality and cheaper in price, yet it's not the best selling sedan in America.
Not quite, the current model scored well in JD Power's Initial Quality Study. That's a good thing, but that does not mean that the car will prove to be reliable over the long term, or that it is as desirable in other ways. But you're right, it's definitely cheaper.
The Accord and Camry have long-standing reputations for both high initial quality and long-term reliability. The Sonata is a newcomer to the quality game, coming from the wreckage of the failed Excels of the 80's, and will still need to prove itself.
It remains to be seen whether the improvements prove to be sustained and translate into long-term reliability. For now, some consumers will pass up on the lower price in favor of the sure thing, plus some may just prefer a different car that better suits their tastes.
If Hyundai can keep this up for another 3-5 years, I'm sure it will stir things up on both sides of the Pacific. But it will have to keep hustling, Hyundai can't afford to relax now if it wants to grow its business.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
BTW- Mr. Carexpert101 The best family sedan in the world is a Acura TL. Good Quality, Engineering, Excellent Performance, State of the Art Technology, and awesome gas mileage, with a smooth VTEC engine that is refined and quiet until you hit 7,000. :P
Rocky
Surprisingly enough, Edmunds ranked it as the winner in a 3-way comparison test.
Gotta give Hyundai credit -- they used the Audi A6 as a benchmark, and ended up with a car with quality materials and the second most powerful engine in its class. (Even looks vaguely like an older A4 from some angles, too.) They're moving up fast, GM and Ford need to learn from them. (And these cars are being built in the US, so Hyundai is also more interested in hiring Americans than are GM or Ford. Why is it that the "foreign" companies are the ones most interested in giving our people jobs?)
That's a good question. I can't go into the brains of Wagoner and Ford. They soley are putting all the blame on the UAW/IUE for exporting jobs overseas. However we all agree if they built every car as rock solid they wouldn't lose so much market share.
Rocky
They(Hyundai) also have most of the same suppliers as Toyota and Honda. I do know they buy from Gentex, Johnson Controls, Delphi, and that's alot of parts.
BTW- Honda is getting the upper hand on Toyota. The Lexus/Toyota brand is getting over priced when you compare it to Acura/Honda brands. Do a car by car comparison of features, performance, quality, gas mileage, price, and see if you come up with the same conclusion of Honda/Acura getting the upper hand on Toyota.
Rocky
That is true, but I believe the primary supplier to Hyundai Motor is called Hyundai Mobis.
BTW- Honda is getting the upper hand on Toyota. The Lexus/Toyota brand is getting over priced when you compare it to Acura/Honda brands. Do a car by car comparison of features, performance, quality, gas mileage, price, and see if you come up with the same conclusion of Honda/Acura getting the upper hand on Toyota.
I agree with you, but I don't think the "average car buyer" cares about anything more than reliability and reputation. While Toyota and Lexus do not offer the best engineered cars in the world (BMW and Mercedes-Benz come to mind for me), they fit the bill nicely by fulfilling these characteristics.
Actually, I see the opposite. Lexus is on board to compete just about head-on with BMW and Mercedes (and already is ahead of Audi and Infiniti), while Acura occupies an odd niche in between the bread-and-butter car market and the "true" luxury nameplates.
The fact that Lexus can get away with selling IS's for more than Acura can sell TL's should tell you that Lexus is doing something right. A successful premium brand should allow a company to charge higher prices, not lower ones, that's what good branding is all about.
BTW- The same fly's with the RL, TSX, RSX, RDX, MDX, and NSX. They all represent the best cars with equal build quality Toyota and better engineering than Toyota at a significant price advantage. You simpily get more for your money which includes Technology. BTW- When your Lexus is blowing white smoke like the LS 400 at 150K, I'd zip buy you with a just broke in 250K Acura RL and smile all the way to the bank. :P
Rocky
Rocky
Ya know, I never even had to drive one for myself to see what he meant. He fell asleep at the wheel and went off the road in his pickup truck. Very, very sad story, but he loved cars and trucks and racing, and I respected his opinion.
Anyhoo, the old-school late 80's Honda CRX is all about being subcompact(but not subpar). Modern day CRX's are what have my eye as futures to replace my '01 Kia Sportage 4x4. The 2006 Kia Rio LX sedan, Kia Rio5, 2006 Kia Sportage and Scion xA and tC are what I am concentrating on for next riggables.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
That's debatable, but even if it's true, price leadership is not generally an attribute that distinguishes a "luxury" brand.
TMC has done a better job of elevating the status of Lexus above Toyota than Honda has of elevating the status of Acura above the Honda nameplate. In terms of the value of the brand, Lexus is a better position than Acura to command premium prices. As a stockholder or owner, you'd prefer to be in Toyota's position when it comes to luxury branding.
Rocky
I wouldn't go that far to say it is a car, any body desires to own. The Azera is a very nice car, but it's not right for everyone. It is lacking some luxury features that set brands like Lexus apart from others. These are the key features some consumers desire to have in a luxury vehicle.
I wonder how the Azera will compare to the new ES. No one has driven it yet. I guess I have to reserve my judgment until I've actually driven the car.
In the preview of the SF, MT went so far as to say "watch out Toyota, Hyundai is gaining on you". Of course, they like to say sensationalist things like that - it helps to sell magazines! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In what respect? Reliability? Price, maybe.
I would think that the Camry and Accord would get a lot better gas mileage that the 24 mpg that I have achieved with 2005 Hyundai Sonatas that I have driven for two weeks this year.
Moving onwards:
Now, as for Sonata. Tons of 05 and 04's in my area, but only 2 new ones.
I would not buy a new one, due to the looks of it.
Unless it were 15K for the LX loaded(down from 24K or so).
If I wanted a Toyota-Honda looking vehicle, I would buy one.
It's not a bad car, but, for 18-21K, (for GLS mid-level model) I might even consider an Eclipse over the sedan Sonata(or any sedan right now, to be perfectly honest, or a cross over, as long as it is not as square or rectangular looking as a station wagon).
Versatility is the thing.
Take Care, Not Offense.
Later.Remeber: Driving is the ultimate test, for You, as an individual.
I have driven 13 models of cars from various makers in 10 months: HHR, Caliber,Cobalt,Ford 500 and Fusion, PT Cruiser,Sonata,Rio ,Eclipse,Reno,Malibu.
Plan on testing the Versa, perhaps the Yaris down the road.
If they rework the xB later this year, as rumors have it, will test it.
That's the only test that counts, IMHO.
Mine, for me.
Ok it has 8 airbags and a good warranty (Azera) The Sonata isn't in the same ball park as the new Camry and definitly isn't as nice as the overall package you get from the Accord. :confuse: Yes they are cheaper, but you also don't get the technology that Acura or Lexus offers.
This should rest my case of anyone saying a Sonata in top trim can Match a Acura TL :P
Rocky
2006 Acura TL 6-Spd MT w/ Performance Tires/Nav System
HYUNDAI
2006 Hyundai Sonata LX
HYUNDAI
2006 Hyundai Azera Limited
VALUE AND WARRANTY
First Vehicle
Second Vehicle
Third Vehicle
Base Price MSRP $35,525 $22,895 $26,835
Destination Charge $615 $600 $660
Comparably Equipped Price $36,140 $24,895 $29,995
Residual Values
ALG Residual Value after 36 months 54% 41% Not Listed
ALG Residual Value after 60 months 37% 25% Not Listed
Warranty & Service Interval
Basic Warranty Time (Months) 48 60 60
Basic Warranty Miles 50000 60000 60000
Powertrain Warranty Time (Months) 72 120 120
Powertrain Warranty Miles 70000 100000 100000
Rust Warranty Time (Months) 60 84 84
Rust Warranty Miles Unlimited Unlimited Unlimited
Extended Service Interval Standard Not Listed Standard
COMFORT AND CONVENIENCE
First Vehicle
Second Vehicle
Third Vehicle
Automatic Climate Control Standard Standard Standard
Rear Seat Heater Ducts Standard Standard Standard
Power Windows Standard Standard Standard
Power Door Locks Standard Standard Standard
Adjustable Steering Column Standard Standard Standard
Navigation System Acura Navigation System w/ Voice Recognition™ (Standard) Not Available Not Available
Hands Free or Voice Activated Telephone Access HandsFreeLink™ Wireless Communication Access For Bluetooth® Enabled Devices (Standard) Not Available Not Available
Steering Wheel Mounted Controls Steering Wheel Mounted Controls For Audio, Air Conditioning, Navigation System, Cruise Control and Phone (Standard) Steering Wheel Mounted Controls For Audio and Cruise Control (Standard) Steering Wheel Mounted Controls For Audio (Standard)
Air Filtration System Standard Standard Standard
Cruise Control Standard Standard Standard
Homelink Remote System Standard Standard Standard
Seats
Leather Trimmed Seats Standard Standard Standard
Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel Standard Standard Standard
Front Bucket Seat Standard Standard Standard
Power Driver Seat Standard Standard Standard
Power Passenger Seat Standard Not Available Standard
Front Power Memory Seat Standard Not Available Optional
Front Heated Seat Standard Standard Standard
Front Adjustable Seat Height Standard Standard Standard
Fold-Down Rear Center Armrest Standard Standard Standard
AM/FM Stereo Standard Standard Standard
Cassette Standard Not Available Optional
Compact Disc Player Standard Standard Standard
Compact Disc Changer Standard Optional Optional
Surround Sound Standard Not Available Not Available
Satellite Radio XM® Satellite Radio (Standard) Not Available Not Available
Panasonic ELS DVD-Audio 5.1 Surround Sound Standard
Not Available Not Available
Lighting
High-Intensity Discharge Headlights Standard Not Available Not Available
Automatic Headlights Standard Not Listed Standard
Fog Lights Standard Standard Standard
Cargo Area Light Standard Standard Standard
Map Light Standard Standard Standard
Glass & Mirrors
Rear Window Defroster Standard Standard Standard
Heated Mirrors Standard Standard Standard
Power Mirrors Standard Standard Standard
Vanity Mirror Standard Standard Standard
Illuminated Vanity Mirrors Standard Standard Standard
Power Rear Window Sunshade Not Listed Not Listed Standard
Instrumentation
Memory Adjustments Standard Not Available Optional
Voice Recognition Voice Recognition™ Voice Activated Controls For Air Conditioning, Radio, Navigation System and Bluetooth® Enabled Devices (Standard) Not Available Not Available
Tachometer Standard Standard Standard
Outside Temperature Gauge Standard Standard Standard
Maintenance Interval Indicator Maintenance Minder (Standard) Standard Not Listed
Remotes & Releases
Remote Trunk Release Standard Standard Standard
Remote Fuel Filler Door Release Standard Standard Standard
Storage
Cargo Net Standard Not Listed Not Listed
Door Storage Standard Standard Standard
Seatback Storage Standard Standard Standard
Armrest Storage Standard Standard Standard
Trunk Pass-Through Standard Standard Not Available
Console Storage Standard Standard Standard
Coin Box Standard Standard Standard
Beverage Holders Standard Standard Standard
Moonroof Standard Optional Optional
PERFORMANCE & ENGINEERING
First Vehicle
Second Vehicle
Third Vehicle
Engine & Transmission
Engine Name VTEC® 3.2L V6 (Standard) Standard Standard
Cylinders 6 6 6
Valves 24 24 24
Valves Configuration SOHC DOHC DOHC
Displacement CC 3210 3342 3778
Bore X Stroke 3.50 X 3.39 3.62 X 3.30 3.78 X 3.43
Compression Ratio 11.0:1 10.4:1 10.4:1
Horsepower @ RPM 258@6200 235@6000 263@6000
Torque @ RPM 233@5000 226@3500 255@4500
Fuel System Multi-Point Fuel Injected Multi-Point Fuel Injected Multi-Point Fuel Injected
Engine Location Front Front Front
Driveline Standard Standard Standard
Transmission Speeds 6 5 5
Transmission Auto/Manual Manual Automatic Automatic
Transmission Overdrive Y Y Y
Drive-By-Wire Throttle System Standard Not Available Not Available
Final Drive Ratio 3.29 3.33 3.33
Extended Service Interval 100,000-Miles Extended Service Interval For Tune-Up (Standard) Not Listed Standard
Fuel Economy
Fuel-Economy City 20 20 18
Fuel-Economy Highway 29 30 27
Combined Fuel-Economy 23 24 21
Steering, Braking, Traction
Power Steering Standard Standard Standard
Steering Rack and Pinion Rack and Pinion Rack and Pinion
Turning Diameter, Left 39.7 35.8 37.4
Braking System Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS) (Standard) Standard Standard
Brakes (Front) Disc Disc Disc
Brakes (Rear) Disc Disc Disc
Limited-Slip Differential Standard Not Available Not Available
Traction Control System Standard Standard Standard
Vehicle Stability Control System VSA® (Standard) Standard Standard
Suspension (Front) Independent Double Wishbone Front Suspension With Coil Springs, Gas Shock Absorbers, Performance Ride Type and Shock Tower Brace Independent Double Wishbone Front Suspension With Coil Springs and Shock Absorbers Independent Double Wishbone Front Suspension With Coil Springs and Gas-Charged Shock Absorbers
Suspension (Rear) Independent Multi-Link Rear Suspension With Coil Springs, Gas Shock Absorbers and Performance Ride Type Independent Multi-Link Rear Suspension With Coil Springs and Shock Absorbers Independent Multi-Link Rear Suspension With Coil Springs and Gas-Charged Shock Absorbers
Stabilizer Bar Standard Standard Standard
Tires SBRP235/45R17, High-Performance Tires SBRP225/50R17 Michelin® Pilot Tires SBRP235/55VR17, Tires
Alloy Wheels Standard Standard Standard
SAFETY
First Vehicle
Second Vehicle
Third Vehicle
Driver Airbag Standard Standard Standard
Passenger Airbag Standard Standard Standard
Front Side Airbags Standard Standard Standard
Side Curtain Airbags Side Curtain Airbag (Standard) Standard Standard
Seatbelt Adjuster Standard Standard Standard
LATCH Upper Tethers Standard Standard Standard
Tire Pressure Monitor Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) (Standard) Not Available Not Available
Child Proof Rear Door Locks Standard Standard Standard
Intermittent Wipers Standard Standard Standard
Speed Sensing Interval Wipers Standard Standard Standard
Head Restraints (2nd Row) Standard Not Listed Standard
NHTSA Front Driver Crash Test 5* Not Listed Not Listed
NHTSA Front Passenger Crash Test 5* Not Listed Not Listed
Vehicle Theft-Deterrent System Standard Standard Standard
Radio Theft-Deterrent System Standard Not Available Not Available
DIMENSIONS AND CAPACITIES
First Vehicle
Second Vehicle
Third Vehicle
Curb Weight, MT 3483 Not Applicable Not Applicable
Curb Weight, AT Not Applicable 3458 3629
Ground Clearance 5.8 6.3 6.4
Height 56.7 58.0 58.7
Length 189.3 188.9 192.7
Track (Front) 62.1 62.0 62.2
Track (Rear) 62.0 61.4 61.6
Wheelbase 107.9 107.4 109.4
Width 72.2 72.1 72.8
Capacity & Volume
EPA Class Mid-Size Cars Large Cars Large Cars
Cargo Volume (Manufacturer) 12.5 16.3 Not Listed
Fuel Tank Capacity 17.0 17.7 19.8
Passenger Volume (Manufacturer) 97.9 105.4 106.9
Seating (Standard) 5 5 5
Interior Dimensions
Headroom (Front) 38.7 40.1 40.2
Headroom (Rear) 37.2 38.2 38.2
Legroom (Front) 42.8 43.7 43.7
Legroom (Rear) 34.9 37.4 38.2
Shoulder Room (Front) 58.3 57.4 57.9
Shoulder Room (Rear) 55.7 56.9 57.1
Trying to say any Hyundai is as good as an Acura as I just proven is compeletely ludacris. If I wanted to be mean I could of through a IS 350 and a Acura RL in their to rub it in a little more. Ya'll saying a Azera is as good as any Acura or Lexus :confuse:
I'll put it this way. A Hyundai Azera is a poor man's Buick Lucerne minus quality, technology, luxury, and fit and finish. :P No seriously !
The Sonata is a poor mans Acura TL or Lexus ES without the Luxury, Technology. Does the Sonata even have power windows :surprise:
Rocky
http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_pag- e_order_int/6/article_id_int/871
Take Care/Not Offense.
I laugh at what they call Buick floaty. :confuse: They better go test drive a Lucerne CSX again. It rides just like my former Caddy Seville STS which also had Magnaride which is a good thing. The Lucerne/LaCrosse are way to Sexay :shades: to be compared to the Azera. The Buicks are like models, Heather Cox-ish The Hyundai is like a Preagnant Britney Spears :P
Rocky
With the above said, TL will still compete much with the likes of G35 and other similarily priced premium sedans; while Azera's main target is still Avalon, more than anything else.
I am eagerly awaiting how the RWD Hyundai luxury sedan will turn out; plans call for to compete 5er, A6, GS...and of course, will undercut the competition...
In my opinion they are all superior to anything out of Korea.
BTW- The Avalon is WAY better than the Azera, not to mention prettier and much better made.
Rocky
Rocky
People will continue to switch to Hyundais from other brands, mainly domestic I would guess, although Hyundai will get a few Japanese converts too with the latest Sonata and Azera. They will probably draw the buyers away more from the second-tier companies who have been competing on warranty and price for a while (like Mitsubishi), than they will from the first-tiers. Toyota will not be afraid to use small cash incentives to move Camrys if it perceives sales dropping because of the Korean competition. And the new Camry is just arriving at dealers now, very well-equipped without a price increase. You can still get an auto-LE for about $21K sticker, probably $19K real-world after the initial rush. And it's better-equipped than the old model. Looks better too, IMO.
Nobody bought the old XG or the current Amanti, so in terms of Hyundai's bottom line, Sonata and Azera should be very good for the company - much more mainstream, loaded to the gills, and still $2000 less than competing Japanese models with the longer warranty to boot. That theme will be continued later in the year with the '07 Santa Fe. I have no doubt that everybody, including Toyota, should be keeping an eye over their shoulder for the upcoming Koreans.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Whatever. I'll drive whatever any of you tell me I should drive, AS LONG AS YOU MAKE THE PAYMENTS ! Who's gonna buy me that IS? :P
TRUTH MAKES PEOPLE MAD, AND BY YOUR RESPONSES, MANY OF YOU, TRUTH MUST HURT LIKE SALT IN A CUT!
I LOVE IT, protest some more, make me laugh. The world needs more laughter! So many unemployed, angry comedians posting here, for FREE!
BTW, I AM STILL WAITING FOR ONE DUDE WHO SAID THERE ARE SOOOO MANY NEGATIVE REPORTS ON AZERA(THERE ARE NONE). I BELIEVE THE PROS, Facts OVER OPINIONS.
Later:
I'm going back to other sites, where adults post, and can agree to disagree without being disagreeable.
:P
One last comment: POST FACTS,Links to facts,etc, and not just opinions posted as facts. Makes you look more informed, intelligent.
The Amanti achieved 19,894 sales in 2004. In 2005 the Amanti went down to 18,668 (over 20k?) units. Did you know that Kia sells over 50% of their Amanti's in fleets? The Amanti was successful in fleets.
Here are some "Links to facts."
link title
Fleet sales: link title
The Amanti doesn't seem to be off to a good start either.
The Amanti's sales dropped drastically. Albeit it is too early to tell, the sales seem to be going down.
Y-T-D
2005: 1,131
2006: 4,202
link title
Lets take a look at the XG's sales.
The XG's 2005 sales, including the new Azera is 17,645 (over 20k?). The XG's 2004 sales were 16,630. Must have gone up because of the introduction of the Azera, and the large incentives to clear the XG's. Oh and according to that fleet site, Hyundai sells around 13% of their XG's in fleets.
XG sales:link title
Next time you make a statement, "over 20k (give or take)." Take your own advice and POST FACTS,Links to facts. Makes you look more informed and intelligent.
Toyota is never going to be worried about a manufacturer that sets sales forecasts for mainstream sedans at 15K. They sell more than 400K Camrys per year, including fleet sales of approx 60K.
In terms of how much Toyota is worrying today, the Amanti and XG did not sell in any meanginful numbers. If anyone inferred that I meant those were not successful models for Hyundai and Kia, please understand that is not what I meant. They were, meeting sales forecasts.
But until they want to sell 200K Sonatas and 50K Azeras annually, they will not be more than a distant blip on the radar of a company like Toyota. Like I said, Hyundai is a company for Toyota to keep one eye on over its shoulder at present.
What is the Kia "equivalent" of the Sonata, the Optima? When will that model be revised to share mechanicals with the new Sonata? Is there a new Amanti anywhere in the offing?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I have read your post about comparison between Acura TL and Azera. One thing you keep forgetting is that Acura TL is $10,000 to $15,000 higher price than Azera. It's like comparing $550,000 house (Acrua TL) to $400,000 house (Azera). Of course, you will get better quality if Acura TL lives up to its high price tag. But what I am saying is that Acura TL's quality is far superior so that I am willing pay extra $10,000 to $15,000? No, I don't think so. The gap is very small between these two vehicles. I strongly believe that Azera is the very best car you can get for the money you spend. Also, I just can't believe you are sill comparing Azera to Lucern because Lucern might have good quality but it's very unreliable. As a pre-owner of Buick, I know that they are notorious for many defects. Sometimes it does not matter how sexy it looks or how good it is in quality if it makes buyers go to mechanic shop every month (I spent more money on fixing my Buick than buying a new one). According to J.D. intial study and many car consumer reports, they rated Lexus and Hyundai having the fewest defects, 12 per 100 vehicles. While Acura and Buick scored bottom half. Rockylee, one thing you need to remember is that many people nowadays value price and reliabilty as top priorities when they choose to buy cars. In that regards, Hyundai stands highest above all. "Very best car for the money you spend"
The new Optima should be showing up sometime this year. It's a bit smaller than the Sonata and gets the 2.7 V6 as the big motor; aimed more for the European market.
Is there a new Amanti anywhere in the offing?
It gets a facelift soon, but stays on the existing platform for a few more years.
In my opinion they are all superior to anything out of Korea."
Not exactly fair assessments but to each own. I would, however, invite you to test drive the Sonata/Azera to see what all the fuss is about
"BTW- The Avalon is WAY better than the Azera, not to mention prettier and much better made.
Rocky"
I would not go that far. Overall, I would give a slight edge to the Avalon...but for the money and the extra features, Azera is a formidable competitor (very much so) to the Avalon.
As for the prettier comment - I don't think the average age of Avalon buyers is looking for pretty cars but reliable, YES!!