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Rocky
Just to set the record strait. I never said to not buy foreign. My comments have been for the people here that say they will never buy an American vehicle because they are unreliable and they put out junk. Many of my post has been to show that American quality has come way up and we no longer put out a bunch of unreliable vehicles. It has also been to show that many of these foreign vehicles that Americans think are so trouble free, are not. I think I have shown that.
I don't care if you purchase a foreign car now and then. I do care when Americans say they will never even consider an American vehicle. There is a vast difference there my friend.
Rock, your right, but you originally posted that the $900-$1500 per car included labor and legacy costs which simply is incorrect, unless you don't include healthcare as a labor and/or legacy cost, which it is. Thus the $900-$1500 per car is simply incorrect.
Rocky
Thanks for the correction
Rocky
If they do, Honda/Acura had better make it all-wheel drive. That kind of horsepower on a FWD car would just create a lot of torque steer and drama.
(The TL is built in Ohio, by the way, on the same platform as the US-market Accord. Yes, our Accord was designed specifically for the US market, and you'll be doing more good for American workers than you would by buying a Fusion.)
Others have said how "open" the Japanese market is to US imports. It's all the US's fault that we just aren't making what they want to buy. Yeah, right....
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rocky
Those people (like myself) have very valid reasoning for that decision based on past reliability issues, past quality issues, cheapness of GM vehicles in general, lack of innovation, chintzy cheap interiors or a combination of factors. I think Ford Motors puts WAY more effort into building a car or truck and I think Chysler (with German influence of course) really excels some breathtaking designs and innovative thinking which IMO has put them at the top of the domestic game at the moment. Ford running a close second with GM panting and stumbling to make it to the gate.
GM is DOES NOT deserve the #1 title it has held for so long. Sorry, but I am AMAZED that they have not been blown out of the water for good years ago. Wanna start throwing the "Patriotic" "Buy American" theme on this forum, fine. I'll finish with this.
Buy what you want, but if you must buy domestic, buy Ford or Chrysler because they deserve the dough. PERIOD.
Would you mind noting who has said this? Reading this thread, I don't see anybody saying this.
It's all the US's fault that we just aren't making what they want to buy.
That's a different comment. The US surely doesn't make any cars that Japan wants -- Saturn has already withdrawn from Japan.
Virtually no automaker makes money in Japan. Why would GM or Ford place high hopes for a market that is a money loser for virtually everyone?
No I'm not against Japanese supporting their own products. I only wish Americans did too. Especially now that we are putting out much better vehicles. At least not say they will never buy American again.
btw - WELCOME TO THE FORUM
Thank you. I am only new to this forum, I have been on Edmunds for quite a while.
Rocky
The RL is built in Japan, as are the TSX and NSX.
If I am not mistaken, the TL was designed specifically for North America. It's a lot bigger than your typical sedans in this class that are sold in Japan or Europe, so I wouldn't expect there to be much demand for these elsewhere.
I just roll on the floor at the repeating of the plastic in the interior, cheap knobs, or other anonymous factors as reasons to hate GM. Last I sat in the Fusion and 500 I saw lots of plastic. The knobs were same as anywhere else but not where they should be located. Same for Accord and the glitzy Avalon. Don't forget the little doors on those that break off and don't work. But they're innovative doors?
Gimme a break. If you just want to hate GM, hate GM. I won't buy another Ford after my 73 Torino and 79 Pacecar Mustang. Poor engineering. Too much rubber hose on the engines. Poor assembly (rear suspension bolts loose). I don't go 'round saying all are junk since then.
>Wanna start throwing the "Patriotic" "Buy American" theme on this forum, fine. I'll finish with this.
?????
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But a blanket statement like that isn't really the focus here or at least that's not what I am getting... The focus right now, what's lining the headlines at the moment, is GM's woes.
I don't believe it is a lack of "Patriotism" or not enough "Buy American" diehards that are causing GM's problems at the moment. Because for those people there are probably a superior Ford or Chrysler product that will get the job done just as much a comparable GM'er. That was was the basis for that last comment.
-I thought Chrysler was German. :P So that leaves Ford. They are pretty dull and have a lower NA content avg. than GM. However I will start to agree with you more if GM starts importing Chinese made cars to the states. GM might be burning it's last bridge with the U.S. customer who buys domestics. :mad:
Rocky
I don't think anyone is saying this. I don't want to put words is someone else's mouth, so I'll only try to clarify MY thoughts on this subject:
I'll buy whatever vehicle meets MY criteria the best, for the least amount of money (and NO, country of origin is not a criteria). Typically, my criteria involves reliability, safety, performance/fun to drive, utility and style. Depending on the type of vehicle I am buying, I'll weight these criteria differently.
I have bought domestic before and generally had a good experience. But I bought domestic NOT simply because it was the best 'domestic' I could find that met my criteria at the time. It was simply the best CAR that met my criteria at the time. It is entirely possible that my next car may be a domestic as well. If so, it will because it was the best CAR that meets my criteria, regardless of country of origin.
I just feel that in order for the domestic makes to compete well with the foreign makes, people should buy them solely because they are the best choice based on their intrinsic qualities, not because anyone feels like they must 'prop up' a domestic industry. After all, GM/Ford must compete with Honda/Toyota NOT JUST in the N.A. market, but worldwide.
Are American consumers really doing the domestics any favors by overlooking shortcomings and buying domestic based on a sense of patriotism?
The blood may be American, but the bones are pure German (chassis are based on the previous generation MB E-class I believe).
No, they're not. They are akin to enablers helping an addict -- they help to convince the management of these firms that nothing is wrong, and help ease the pain that should have been suffered due to their mistakes.
Part of the problem for GM is that the much-needed wake-up was too gradual to be taken seriously by a company so large. Had US sales plummeted within a relatively short period, rather than gradually slipped, the problem would have been indisputable, and management would have had no choice but to react. Instead, they were able to remain complacent, avoid serious product changes, and maintain a long-series of cost-cutting initiatives that simply slowed the bleeding and caused long-term losses in market share.
Rocky
Sure, all (mainstream) cars have plastic interiors. But I for one, see a difference between a quality interior and a poor quality interior among various vehicles. If you think all plastics are equal, just look at the interior of an '07 Tahoe vs an '06. The difference is huge. If you truely believe all plastics are equal, then you won't notice a difference, which IMO, would be impossible.
BTW, I rode in a friends 4cyl '02 Accord EX with 80K miles on it the other day. I was impressed with how smooth and solid it was. That Honda 4cyl engine felt smoother and quieter than the v6 in my wifes '06 500 and the v8 in my Suburban.
I've never owned a Toyota or Honda. I have several friends and neighbors who own them. They all rave about them and when I ride/drive them I understand why these people are happy owning them.
I have a neighbor that is a master tech at a local domestic car repair shop. His wife drives a Camry and he just bought his daughter a Civic. He drives a Chevy P/U. Even here in Kansas, almost every driveway has at least one foreign car.
I have another neighbor that just had their 04 Mercury Mountaineer bought back by Ford for multiple fuel system problems. I kid not when I say the Mountaineer left them stranded about 6 times (in the middle of South Dakota where their family is from) and Ford stepped up to the plate and bought it back. They did replace it with an '06 model in Dec. which already is having check engine and airbag lights coming on. What is really sad, is the mountaineer was basically the first domestic they have decided to buy and I'll be shocked if they'll be in a hurry to buy another.
My uncle swears, jokingly, that his '03 Corolla will be his first AND last Toyota product. Not that it's been unreliable or anything. It has around 104,000 miles on it, and the only real problem is that the catalytic convertor needs to be replaced, and he's been getting quotes of $1000-2000 to do it. But in the time he's had it, he's hit a deer, a pickup truck, and had someone hit him in the back. It's not the car's fault, but he's just had the worst luck with it!
At one time, I had asked him if, when the time comes to get a new car, if I could have first dibs on his Corolla. But once that catalytic convertor issue came up, it changed my mind REAL fast!
"language" (human rights, etc) which he didn't. :mad: So yes he is very much responsible, but not fully.
Rocky
The Republicrats are responsible for both NAFTA and for getting favorable trading status to the PRC. (You might remember that it was Nixon who opened up China to the west.) Definitely a bipartisan effort, both parties support this.
The theory is that the US benefits from low-cost goods (lower inflation, increased US consumerism) and that China may become more democratic and less of a threat if it develops strong trade ties with the west and a new consumerist middle class. You might not agree with it, but that's the motivation.
Do you know the figures on what it costs GM to build a G6. Approx $8-10K with labor & legacy included per unit.
A Chevy Silverado is approx. $12-14K
(depends on trim levels) Escalades, STS, are about $18K
Just to be clear I was talking about small autos in the mid teen's sales range. The G6 is a competitive vehicle in the midsized range selling from ~ $20K to $26K.
Your info is interesting. I'm guessing that your father's figures are the direct costs put into each vehicle. On top of these ( I'm guessing ) are plant depreciation, tooling depreciation, HQ costs, Marketing costs, Regional Costs, then finally PROFIT.
Coming down from the other direction: 4c w/ SAB/ Cloth/Wheels
TMV Sales price ( Edmunds ) ~ $20000
Sales person... 350
Dealer.......... 2650
Freight........ 800
which results in a wholesale price of about $16-17000.
Well, I guess I could defect to Ford or Chrysler if this happens, but if they follow suit, I guess I'll have to give up cars as an interest. Automobiles will just become anonymous poorly-made appliances with generic styling devoid of passion. Maybe a few lucky souls will be able to afford the few exotics and high-buck Euro makes. The average slob will be SOL. Tennis anyone?
Rocky
GM is already building cars in China. According to this GM press release:
Shanghai General Motors Co. Ltd. (Shanghai GM) is a 50-50 joint venture with Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation Group (SAIC), a leading passenger car manufacturer in China. Shanghai GM was formed in June 1997. It is fully supported by a network of sales, aftersales and parts centers. Shanghai GM has an annual production capacity of 200,000 vehicles. It builds and sells a comprehensive range of products including the Buick Royaum premium sedan, Buick Regal upper-medium sedan, Buick Excelle lower-medium sedan, Buick Excelle HRV hatchback, Buick Sail small car, Buick S-RV recreational vehicle and Buick GL8 executive wagon. It also produces engines and transmissions.
GM is the number one seller in China, having overtaken VW. Many of the GM cars sold in China are built in China and designed for the Chinese market.
It's unfortunate this might be the beginning of the end. I can't see GM stopping with just electronics. My dad says Delphi is expanding on their China Delphi "fuel injector" plant and wonders when his plant will close.
Hell it's not going to be all bad. Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus make damn good cars. You admit to liking the new LS 460 and it's made by Japanese union workers who are paid enough $$$$$ to support their family and not have to eat snakes and live in grass huts. BTW-The Europeans don't come close to the Japanese in NA content.
Rocky
Rocky
The Toyota dealer quoted him $1500. The place I deal with only said "yeah, we could do it cheaper, but the part itself is around $1000". My uncle tried a local place, and they estimated $2000!
Not to wander too far off topic, but an aftermarket converter installed by a muffler shop should be a lot cheaper than that.
One way to check on this is to call an aftermarket maker of converters, get the part numbers for the ones that will suit your car, then ask a muffler shop for quotes for installing those specific converters. (The low prices quoted in ads are usually for generic converters that may or may not be suitable to your car.)
Sure it does. If it's sold as Braun, the profit goes back to Germany. If it's sold as G.E. the profit comes back to America, even if they are all made in the same Chinese factory.
The vast majority of Whirlpool (and Maytag) stuff is now made in Mexico. A lot of it used to be made about 60 miles from me in Michigan, but that plant closed down last year.
That just sounds silly. There is a real dislike of GM coming thru in there, why ?, who knows ?.
"It's simply hypocritical to support GM's outsourcing, yet act as if the walls are coming down when Honda gives an American a job."
Are the walls are coming down ? Not really, it's called competition. Competition is good for the consumer, right ? But maybe not when GM is successful at it....now the walls would really be coming down !
In a previous post, you expressed concern of purchasing GM products because that purchase may ultimately lead to investment in China, a Communist Country !
It's really hypocritical to pick on GM for doing exactly what every other Global automotive entity is doing, which is investing in China and marketing product there. Toyota, BMW, VW, Ford, DCX, everybody wants a piece of that market. GM global sales were up by 2% last year, thanks in a large part to the Asia Pacific regions where GM is performing remarkably well. All the other Global automaker's want a piece of that action too.
"Just become"? Haven't we in US been treated(?) to this over last 3+ decades by most of the offerings from American auto brands?
Just out of curiousity, if GM makes a profit on their Chinese operations, where do you think the profits should go? Should they go towards expanding their Chinese operations, R&D on future/better Chinese market products (to compete with offerings from Toyota, BMW, VW, Ford, DCX).
Orrrr......do you think that GM's profits from Chinese operations should come back to the U.S. to help with their domestic operations?
That's actually a great question.
I was on the Ford lot the other day, and saw that a Fusion has a meager 30% US/Canada content. The engine is American, but the transmission is Japanese (I believe they use Toyota's supplier). The FA of the car is in Mexico. IMO, that is completely pathetic. However, at least they don't use a French transmission like they do in the Explorers!
Considering how well the GTO aged, I'd buy a Holden-designed car in a heartbeat. LS2, no problem. FA in Korea though, no way. I want a car built in Germany, U.S., Canada, or Japan; countries with a history of quality auto manufacture. I specifically excluded the U.K. and Sweden; while they've been in the auto business for awhile, nobody will ever accuse them of cranking out quality rides. :P
My ancestors left Eastern Europe 100 years ago for a better life in America. I wonder if my descendants 50 to 100 years from now will be leaving America for a better life in Asia?
???
How can GM afford the labor costs of building in the U.S. and then shipping the cars to China when their competition uses Chinese labor with no transcontinental shipping? If they followed your suggestion, they would soon lose whatever gains they may have had in the Chinese market.
Or do you intend that Americans work for Chinese wages? I think not.....
You must be reading a different thread.
I don't have a problem with GM being profitable. I also don't blame GM for outsourcing (although I think it is a flawed strategy for other reasons, such as achieving high product quality) or for developing other markets. If GM management can turn a profit, then so be it.
What I have a problem with is the faux patriotism (sorry for using a French word on an American car thread) associated with the Big 2.5, when these companies are simply multinationals fighting for market share, as is everyone else.
This apple pie/God/country/Chevrolet talk is just the byproduct of an ad campaign of old, it is not rooted in reality. And the portion of the discussion here that verges on racist makes me queasy to read, as I thought that these dinosaur attitudes died out some time ago.
GM is a maker of products, and it needs to produce products that customers want at a price that will motivate customers to buy them and will generate a profit for the business. That's all it is, and it will deserve to succeed if it can do these things, and deserve to die if it can't.
Unless I am a stockholder in it, I care about GM only from the standpoint of its ability to hire people in the US, invest in the US economy and pay US taxes. If Toyota can do a better job of that than GM, I really don't care. No reason that you should care, either. A multinational is a multinational is a multinational, and anyone of them can build an "American" car, but only if they build it in America.
If that happens, and Ford eliminates or reduces US production, consider a Honda/Acura or Toyota which are designed for US market and assembled in the US by US workers with US content. You will be very happy. There are probably tens of thousands of former GM buyers that have seen the light already. Your fury will be eliminated after test driving and examining an Acura, Accord, Avalon, etc.
You can expect more and more Big 2.5 products to come from Mexico, South Korea and possibly China (although I'm going to guess that GM's PRC operation will first focus on serving China and other developing nations in Asia.) The trend is already underway -- for example, the next Opel Corsa (small GM compact sold in Europe) will be coming from South Korea.
If you were wondering why GM bought Daewoo, now you know. Unlike Toyota and Honda that have elected to build their own nameplates from within, GM and Ford have a history of acquiring other carmakers to gain market share, distribution and R&D.
I'll stop by the dealer and take a look. I assume you are saying the 07 is poorer in look or feel than the 06? Or are you saying the 07 is improved the way the 06 (and earlier) should have been done?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,