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''The Wall Street Journal’s Paul Ingrassia: “Robert Lutz has been surprisingly ineffective at GM, as if mired down like a raisin stuck in oatmeal.”
I’m especially fond of that last metaphor — that was a new one for me. I didn’t even know raisins got stuck in oatmeal; I always thought they sort of floated there proudly, going about their business.''
thought that was funny, but anyways, back to Bob Lutz's speach: ''Anyway, well, now let’s look at some of our awful, boring products and see just how unpopular they are:
Chevrolet HHR We’ve raised our forecasts twice for this model, from about 60,000 initially to now about 132,000 annually. March was its best retail month since launch, with very little spent on customer incentives. California, Texas and Florida are the top three retail states since launch. Those are not traditionally strong markets for GM cars. So far in 2006, HHR has outsold the Chrysler Pacifica, Nissan Murano, Dodge Durango, and Honda Element. Our dealers are requesting 200% of our ability to supply Chevrolet Impala
We are building 250,000 of these a year, and demand is running about 300,000.
March was its best sales month yet. It overtook the Nissan Altima as the third-best selling car in America, behind Camry and Accord.
Buick Lucerne
March was its best sales month since its launch last year, and 91% of sales were retail, meaning non-fleet, non-rental companies.
Lucerne has the second-lowest turn rate in the segment, 25 days, trailing the Toyota Avalon by just one day.
Chevrolet Corvette
The world’s great affordable sports car, Corvette is sold out.
Pontiac Solstice
Solstice? Sold out. Best turn rate of any vehicle in its segment.
Saturn Sky
“All available production for 2006 is accounted for.” In other words, sold out.'' Let’s look at what the “experts” had to say before they came out earlier this year:
University of Maryland business professor Peter Morici: "They're married to large vehicles and big engines, and consumers just aren't buying them right now SUV sales are going to continue to lag and GM is almost in denial on that issue." Analyst David Healy: "GM is betting the ranch that they can sell SUVs in an environment of $2.50-a-gallon gasoline, but the big SUV segment will continue to shrink, and GM is going to have its work cut out for it."
Autobytel analyst Brian Chee: “Everybody else is coming out with subcompacts, crossovers and smaller cars while GM is alone in the woods when it comes to these big SUVs.”
By the way, it’s worth pointing out that we are most certainly not alone in the woods; Chrysler and Ford are coming out with new fullsize SUVs, and, would you believe it, Toyota is readying a new line of fullsize trucks, too. So, apparently, not everyone thinks this segment is dying out.
It makes you wonder just how these experts get to be experts!
Well, we went ahead and launched our new SUVs anyway. Let’s see how they’re doing:
Year-to-date GM share of the large utility segment is 67.5%, up 8.6 pts from year ago Non-GM Source of Sales of ’07 models: Tahoe (29.8%), Yukon (27.8%), and Escalade (26.4%) Average transaction price increase versus last year’s models: Tahoe (+$6.5k), Yukon (+$6.7k), and Escalade (+$10k) So, we’re selling more of them, for more money. The pundits will say that’s just because they’re brand new, but we’ll see, because we think these are the best SUVs that have ever lived. Take a look at them:
Chevrolet Tahoe March retail sales were up 35% from February, and it’s doing great on the West Coast. Total ’07 model year sales are the highest in the segment In March, it had a turn rate of just 19 days, compared to 80 days for the Ford Expedition and 41 for the Toyota Sequoia GMC Yukon March Yukon sales were up 109% from February, and it had a turn rate of just 16 days, on average. Cadillac Escalade March sales were up 73% from February. Its total sales lead the Lincoln Navigator by 300 units, and it has outsold the Infiniti QX56, Range Rover and Lexus LX 470 combined. Vehicles turned in an average of 7 days in March. That means the inventory is turning four times a month. Now, all of this is amazing to me. We don’t make any cars or trucks that anybody wants to buy but we sure do sell a lot of them. Either we are holding a lot of customers at gunpoint in our dealerships and forcing them into our vehicles, or the so-called experts are absolutely blind to what is happening in the marketplace.
It’s as if the folks working the op/ed and business pages don’t even read the product reviews anymore. Because if they did, they’d see that our cars and trucks are getting largely rave reviews.
Anita Lienert in The Detroit News: “The redesigned Escalade stands out as the sexiest full-size SUV on the market, an awesome Detroit offering that hits a bull's-eye in such important areas as horsepower and cabin design.” Paul Eisenstein, The Car Connection.com: “The Escalade is about as good as a full-size SUV gets.”
And how bout this one?
Joe Langley, CSM Automotive analyst: “GM’s redesigned full-size SUVs will prove the segment is alive and well despite unexpected events that try to wreck their place in the market. The segment is far from dead. I recommend taking any of them for a drive, and you’ll be as surprised as I was.” People who think it doesn’t matter who owns our auto industry are flat wrong. They think it doesn’t matter because the Japanese and Germans and Koreans are “producing” in the states now. But they’re not “producing”— they’re “assembling.” The parts are mostly brought from overseas, and the profits for reinvestment don’t stay in the U.S.
These are facts about our domestic auto industry:
GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler account for 4% of the U.S. GDP, and 11% of all manufacturing shipments.
We collectively employ nine out of 10 American autoworkers — and affect 7 million jobs in auto and related industries.
We provide healthcare for 2 million Americans, and pension benefits for 800,000 retirees.
We buy 80% of the auto parts sold in the United States.
And we’ve made 85% of the total investment in the U.S. auto industry since 1980. If you’ll indulge me, I’d like to read you a letter from someone who understands this. It was written by Congressman John Dingell of Michigan, to the president, in response to his comments on the U.S. auto industry. Congressman Dingell writes:
“The American auto industry is not being hurt, as the Administration suggests, because of the vehicles it is producing. Contrary to the statements of your chief economic adviser, American manufacturers lead the industry in fuel economy in nearly every segment. Our automakers face healthcare and pension costs which foreign automakers do not. ''
They compared an I4 Camry to a V6 Fusion, and the article is from the Detroit News. Bias, anyone?
By the way, the Fusion is largely derived from a Mazda design, assembled with its Milan and Zephyr siblings in Mexico, while (at least down here) 90% of the 2007 Camrys were built in the United States. And if you want to get subjective, its interior is a dead ringer for various Volkswagen models created by the same designer now working for Ford. I think it is a neat example of the ever-increasing global character to the car business, myself.
This "rah rah" stuff reminds me of how people root for sports teams...
So this is the roaring 20's once again, as people spend their way into ruin buying expensive gas guzzling SUVs for no reason? GM is rebounding. All is well. One of those 1929 kinda years.
What may happen, just before GM goes into bankruptcy mode, is that Congress has a bill for passing on a new national health care program, a VAT tax, and/or sales tax to help pay for same.
So GM buys 80% of domestic parts for cars. That is hard to believe for some reason. GM has made 85% of the total investment in US auto industry since 1980. Equally astounding. Where has Ford been? So Ford and Toyota, and all the rest, making cars in USA, showing USA content of say 70%,only make up, the last 20% --interesting. Well, I have no numbers, so I will just have to take it on his word. Amazing stats indeed. Now I wish he had not brought the 1980 date to mind. Oh the woes of the cars built in USA in the 80's.
GM V6 cars, as well as, some V8 cars do seem to get pretty good gas mileage. The four bangers, a bit less than say the Civic, but what the heck. The average at GM is good enough.
If GM is on track to avoid bankruptcy and make strong profits moving forward, by gosh, give that CEO a raise. That would be some trick indeed!
" American auto industry is not being hurt, as the Administration suggests, because of the vehicles it is producing " Now where is the proof of that statement. There is a little bit of product out there which is better than the competition, but not much. If people like the product, why aren't they selling that product in larger numbers? No not the rental fleet - retail sales? Why the discounts? If he said, it is not the whole problem, then perhaps I would agree.
Why is DamlierChrysler included in the big three still? They are not wholly owned by the German corporation?
I am still trying to figure out this content concept. Lots of GM parts are made in other countries, along with some being assembled in other countries. They claim the Japanese and Germans are using very little USA parts, if you figure in what Ford must use in their cars. So, if most of the parts, over the years came from abroad in Japan cars, and those cars are rated higher in reliability, then the parts are better? Oh-oh, another Pandora's box is open!
If GM stays open for business, and has some bucks left for development, a really nice Nova and Camaro, of compact size would be nice - please build. A Malibu or Monte, in RWD too- please. Cobalt, Impala and Lucerne can stay FWD to service those on the frozen tundra. Oh yeah, a really edgy looking CTS with new interior, and a new STS with a name and more distinctive styling. An entry level Cadillac based on a new Nova platform, would be cool. Make three engines for all the cars in the inventory. Then whatever engines are required for the SUV and Truck lines. -Loren
They compared an I4 Camry to a V6 Fusion By the way, the Fusion is largely derived from a Mazda design, assembled with its Milan and Zephyr siblings in Mexico, while (at least down here) 90% of the 2007 Camrys were built in the United States
They compared an i4 w/ a v6, because those are the engines those cars come with when priced similarly. I knew you would bring up the Ford being from a Mazda design, but the interior is still all Ford, and that all Ford interior beat the Camry, which was made in Japan, if you read the article.
So the conclusion is that the Toyota, made largely of US parts is not as good? I like the looks of the Fusion a bit more. And I suppose the handling is better. As for the rest??? The Fusion is a Mexican built car. So, if Toyota is not being built correctly, then they should move the plant to Mexico. What is Detroit News thinking :surprise: Has to be the logical conclusion to be made.
I think it is possible that Toyota is slipping a bit overall. That said, I sat in a new Camry and it looked tight and well made to me. The bullet proof years, IMHO, for Toyotas where in the 1990's.
The Fusion, no one knows at all as to how reliable a car they will be. The Mazda6 is a good handling and fun ride for an economy sedan. The Fusion should be pretty good too. First and second year out woes though could strike both Fusion and Camry. Camry has a real problem with the 6 speed tranny, I hear. How about a knock-off design of Accord, as in Sonata. They are said to be reliable -- well initial quality -- again who knows. -Loren
That is interesting. I come up with say $1,200 difference between the two cars equipped with side air, V6, and such. Considering resale, it is likely the Camry is cheaper. The V6 in the Camry has much more power. They are having a problem with the transmissions, but once that is sorted out, the car should be on track again as a leader. I am not big fan of the funny nose on the Camry, and the Fusion may be more fun. But based on the numbers of what you get in power and value, the Camry should win. I personally like the Fusion style more. Interior is pretty good. Would not say better than Camry, but good none-the-less. Compare the Sonata V6 with the Fusion i4, if you are doing price based comparo's for the day. Currently around $19,500 for the V6 Sonata. Add the safety stuff to the Fusion. Bet ya come up with an i4. Here we go again! -Loren
Here is the problem with your two statements you changed the wording. Goofy statements No 1 Toyota provides work for 300,000 Americans! Yay! GM goes under and 1,000,000 Americans lose their jobs. Net loss: 700,000 jobs. Oh oh!!!
Your revised statement No 2 GM supports over 1 million Americans
Socala4 pointed out he is talking about just direct GM employment You are talking about ancillary jobs as well. GM is not the sole employter to the 825,000 jobs outside of its direct employment. These people also 'get paid' by policemen, teamsters, hospital workers, Toyota retiree's, DC workers, legal and illegal immigrants, etc, etc. None of these ancillary workers are paid directly by GM. If a teamster mainly works for GM now there is nothing stopping him from working for the new Hyundai plant or one of the new Toyota plants going up.
In addition a huge part of the 180,000 direct workers currently at GM work now for the truck, SUV, Corvette and Caddy divisions and these are going nowhere. These divisions are making huge profits and GM will certainly concentrate its resources in keeping them healthy. Even if GM stated tomorrow 'We are out of the auto business here. We are going to import them all'. It would still be a huge employer due to it's other hugely profitable divisions with 125,000 or 150,000 direct employees.
Using the same ratio you imply above: If 185,000 direct employees support 1,000,000 jobs then 135,000 direct employees will support about 730,000 jobs.
The other 270,000 will not just 'vanish' they eill move or become re-educated and participate elsewhere. Frankly the scare tactics of the unions to it's members and the communities sounds to me something like this.
'If GM fails or downsizes then you ( employees and local communities ) will all go on the welfare lines - because you are incapable of doing anything else. If you don't get paid by the General you are lost because you can't do anything else.'
>Really? I see about four domestic sedans in my own driveway as well as at least one in many others. I also see a lot of imports on rental car lots as well. You can get a nice 1 year-old Maxima from National's old fleet.
I don't see content of rental lots costing sales in this area for GM products. I think's someone's platform for their party speeches.
I will check the local Hertz lot to see what's sitting. Last trip by it was Datsuns, Corollas, and maybe 1 GM. Might have been an Impala. There may have been a Camry sitting. Maybe I'll loop through the airport just to see what's on the lot there at the rentals.
Somehow I think "they doth protest too much." There's something wrong with the constant protestations, don't you think?
I keep seeing those door gaps on Toyo and Hon products as they go past. There were even gaps in the BMW on the way to Cinci last Tuesday. Nice guy owns it but I hated to tell him the interior was cheap as, well, plastic.!!! Heh, heh. The constant shifting of the trans was awful to sit and listen to. They surely could do something to smooth the shifts. A manual trans could shift better. Perhaps he has been indoctrinated to think that is the only way trans should shift, but my cars do so much better at smooth shifting in normal driving. And they probably both get much better mileage than his 'trim' BMW model. It probably was a 4 cyl at that.
...I live in North America. I'm sure I will see a lot of domestic cars in a rental car fleet in the U.S. as I'm sure you will see a lot of European cars in a German rental car fleet or Asian cars in a Japanese rental car fleet.
Number of jobs is not the point!!!! You buy a car for you and your family, not the UAW and NOT the auto workers family. The Big 3 need only to start building a quality engineered/built vehicle and folks will buy them. End of story.
Referring to post 2451, one should view Acura and Honda as synonomous (as well as Cadillac and Chevrolet). It is only in the US market that Acura exists due to the need for US citizens to acquire psychological "status".
On a more relevant point, I recently saw the football chick Suzy Kolber advertising for Chevrolet and she was actually comparing a Chevrolet SUV to a Lexus SUV and claiming that the Chevrolet was $17,000 cheaper. Why not compare it to a Ferrari and state that it is $200,000 cheaper? Where was Cadillac in this equation?
You know buying a Civic / RSX Acura is not a bad thing. Two quality names, one chassis, different engines and trim. Now consider the Cimmeron. / Cavalier, oh my. Not exactly anything of luxury, fit and finish comes to mind there. Would not be insulted if I owned an RSX and someone considered it a Honda, or a Civic. On the other hand, a rebadged Cavalier, pretending to be a Cadillac, which at the time were big luxo cars, is too much of a stretch. And both names suffer to eternity. Well that's a little harsh. Actually the two cars would be good transportation. The Cimmeron. with a V6 had a little pep to it. But you get the point.
Maybe Chevy needs to get up to Cadillac status. Better yet, have GM cars, with only the top line stuff Cadillac, and drop the rest of the names. GM Saturn seems to be going Opel, so just add Holdens too, and make it the Saturn GM Import line. Have a Nova & Camaro smaller RWD car, Monte Carlo RWD and Impala AWD, the Cadillac CTS,CTS or smaller coupe, and a new STS, and take Lucerne into the Caddy line, and be done with the rest. Oh forgot SUV and Trucks by GMC. And the GM Corvette V8 and V6. -Loren
It seems Gm and Ford would rather blame us instead of building passenger cars we want to buy. Notice I said passenger cars. GM and Ford know how to build SUV's and Trucks we want.
BMW and Mercedes can afford to get away with reliability problems (overwhelmingly computer related problems due to all the techno wizardry) because BMW and Mercedes are premium brands that monied buyers want. No GM Brand or Ford brand has this cachet so they can't get away with reliability issues in their higher priced cars. Not fair? Maybe. Will crying about it help? No because people are people and have decided this in the marketplace.
Honda and Toyota/Lexus can get away with some vanilla styled cars because of the reality and or reputation of rock solid reliability, superior build quality and fit and finish. No Gm or Ford brand has this reputation ( Save Buick whose avg aged buyer is 65) so we can't accept an uninspired looking car that shows up in rental lots everywhere. Some may whine about the inequity of it all, but it's what we the buying public have decided. The public has decided that with few exceptions we'll take an Accord/Camry/Altima over a G6, Gran Prix, Malibu, Impala or Fusion. Rental fleet sales don't count here and seeing Impalas all over the local Budget Rent a Car lot here makes me even less inclined to buy one.
I am in the market for a mid sized or full sized sedan 22-35K. There isn't a domestic sedan at any price that I've seen with an interior anywhere close to a 33K Acura TL. Lucerene has a Chevy Impala interior and no one under 60 drives one. The G6 has an awful-cheap interior. The Chrysler 300 already has a lousy mechanical reputation and gets horrible gas mileage. The Fusion/Milan are attractive but I sincerely doubt they are built as well as am Accord or Camry or Altima. The Five Hundred/Montego look bland, have uninspired drivetrains and again I can't see them being built better than the Japanese leaders. The Milan will get a long look from me and the pricing and features for the money are attractive. Every other car I am seriously considering is a Japanese make: Camry, Accord, TL, Altima and Maxima.
So there it is. If Gm and Ford apologists and if GM and Ford itself want to attack me than so be it. The majority of car buyers feel exactly as I do and where I live it's not even close except for SUV's and trucks. GM and Ford need buyers like myself and right now they aren't getting us. When domestics makers can manufacture cars with the quality interior/ exterior styling/ reliability/ and performance I expect at the price level I can afford then I will consider them.
Kia Optima will trump Fusion in features while being $2k cheaper and longer warranty. Now that is what I call value. By today's standards, I expect Korean/American build Kia to be more reliable than a Mexican Ford.
It is no secret that domestics need two extra cylinders to deliver the same level of performance as Japanese. Examples: Lucerne V8 v Avalon V6 pImpala V8 v Altima V6 Exploder V8 v Pathfinder V6 Dakota V8 v Tacoma V6 GTO V8 v Z V6 In all of the above, the V6 powered vehicles are as fast as V8s. Lucerne and Dakota are more than a second slower to 60. Big 3 apologists would argue that getting a V8 for the same price of V6 is actually a good deal convienently ignoring the gas mileage penalty and worse handling.
No, I would still go Hyundai over Kia. The Kia makes me think of Chia, and I would be afraid to leave it out in the rain. Grows hair ya know. :P
Seriously, it would be interesting to go to the Kia dealership and look at the Optima. Suppose to be a good car I guess. Have not researched it, and have not been up North to the dealership. The one in the city here closed shop. That was when Kia was down, and nearly out. I think the Sonata is a deal. Using the design of Accord is not showing much though to me, especially when they seem to have some good designs of their own. Hey, keep it Hyundai and not Honda rip-offs. But it is a great value at $19,500 for the V6 now. Actually a larger car than the Accord. - Loren P.S. Looked it up on JD Powers and Kia is not rated as highly as Hyundai in this class. I would stay the course with Hyundai. Interesting that Altima is not highly rated for mechanical - wonder what's wrong in that respect? Actually, some GM cars are rated well for mechanical. Not sure about driving excitement... OK, maybe the Vette. But that is $45K plus replacement of the nose when I hit someting on the ground... can't afford one.
if ford products are made in mexico and gm products are made in canada, would the honda accord i recently purchased be considered an american car? at least its made in the good old u s of a. :confuse:
Oh that's OK, Mexico is within the America's. North America. Parts is parts, I guess. The Mustang is still built in USA. Will all the Fusions be built in Mexico? Where is the engine and tranny made? The Mustang has French or American transmissions, and German and USA engines, unless I am missing some options here. Those are the ones I saw listed. The parts come together in USA.
Where you able to obtain any discount on that Accord, if I may ask? Did you consider the Altima, Sonata, Impala, or other US make? -Loren
as a toyota guy my entire life i was a little wary of a honda purchase. the car however was discounted 10% below sticker and quite frankly is the best new vehicle i have ever owned! may GOD bless america and the american worker
GM has certainly done some improving, especially with their new trucks (but I question whether this will continue to be a strong market segment). But Lutz is also using a lot of selective spin to make things look at positive as possible. Again, I do wonder why GM doesn't focus more on quality cars:
HHR We’ve raised our forecasts twice for this model, from about 60,000 initially to now about 132,000 annually. March was its best retail month since launch, with very little spent on customer incentives. California, Texas and Florida are the top three retail states since launch. Those are not traditionally strong markets for GM cars.
Well, he is talking numbers of units. Of course 3 of the most populous states will have the biggest sales! He doesn't talk about market share of HHR sales in those states relative to midwest states. This doesn't say much of anything.
So far in 2006, HHR has outsold the Chrysler Pacifica, Nissan Murano, Dodge Durango, and Honda Element.
He selectively picks just weaker sellers, then says that they are outselling them! What about the PT Cruiser, the most direct competitor? I don't see that mentioned.
Chevrolet Impala
We are building 250,000 of these a year, and demand is running about 300,000.
March was its best sales month yet. It overtook the Nissan Altima as the third-best selling car in America, behind Camry and Accord.
And how many of those are to fleets vs. the competitors? He doesn't say.
Buick Lucerne
March was its best sales month since its launch last year, and 91% of sales were retail, meaning non-fleet, non-rental companies.
But he mentions fleet sales here, when the percentage of fleet sales is lower. What he's saying is that we don't sell a lot of Lucernes to fleets, and sales are continuing to increase. But no absolute numbers presented.
So he says sales numbers are highest on HHR in the most populous states (duh). He says Impala sales are very high, but doesn't say how many are to fleets. And he says Lucerne's sales continue to increase and have few fleet sales, but doesn't give overall numbers so you don't know if those numbers are really small.
Does Accord and Camry have a patent on the high quality, midsize car?
If you build a new car from scratch and give it the best of everything, it MUST turn out resembling the A&C. If it does not resemble the A&C, then it will not be of decent quality. As for styling, there are only so many ways to style a small car. There simply isn't room for radical styling.
GTO V8 v Z V6 In all of the above, the V6 powered vehicles are as fast as V8s. Lucerne and Dakota are more than a second slower to 60.
Sorry, but a Z can't touch a GTO in acceleration. And the Impala V8 is faster than the Altima. It is the 4 speed transmissions that are holding GM back, not the engines.
Lutz made the comments to auto journalists, who have ready access to market data.
In fact, not just auto journalists, the general public as well:
For instance, the PT Cruiser sold 32k units for the year, and 10,224 in March. The HHR sold 25,308 for the year, and 8,698 in March. April for the HHR were 9,352 bringing sales up to 34,660 (I do not have Chrysler PT sales for April)
The Lucerne sold 29,122 through April.
Chevrolet sells overall around 15% to fleets. Altima and Camry somewhat lower but with siginificant numbers.
It would be silly for Lutz, in an interview where he is saying what GM is trying to do to simply regurgitate raw numbers, when those numbers are on the web and available for all to find.
Finally, if the HHR is selling above projections and well in States where GM typically does not sell well, GM is either really nailing its weaker states, or the car is selling well in the Midwest. Not sure, really, why that would matter in any event. If GM sells more HHRs than planned, who cares if the sales are in Florida or Minnesota?
Badge/ %age of overall sales to fleets/ %age of car sales to fleets:
Chevrolet / 26.9% / 43.3% Nissan / 8.3% / 12.5% Toyota / 6.2% / 9.5%
It doesn't take a math whiz to know that 12.5% and 9.5% are a lot more than just "somewhat lower" than 43.3%.
It simply amazes me that anyone here could possibly believe that fleet sales are not an issue for GM, when even GM publicly acknowledges it. Why the denial of such a basic, obvious fact?
Detroit News does a real disservice by comparing a V6 to a 4 banger Camry, as if they can't compete on a level playing field. How pathetic.
The 3.5l is a gem, no wonder, they were probably scared. The 4 banger in the Fusion ain't too bad, though, so they should have compared the 4 cylinder models head-to-head.
What's next, we'll here that JapaneseCarFans prefers the Fit over the Aveo. :sick:
It simply amazes me that anyone here could possibly believe that fleet sales are not an issue for GM, when even GM publicly acknowledges it. Why the denial of such a basic, obvious fact?
Who is denying anything?
I was answering a post concerning spin, not fleet sales. Your link further confirms my point that specific information on issues the OP took to task are available. An executive talking big picture does not need to rehash what is already out there.
I note a few things however:
First, the article talks about a big jump in fleet sales in January. The Lutz interview was talking April sales.
The article also says rental fleet sales dropped in the following months.
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First, the article talks about a big jump in fleet sales in January. The Lutz interview was talking April sales.
Being that most rental fleet purchases are made during January and July, it would follow that fleet sales would be lower during April. Overall fleet sales for the first quarter were actually above last year, so no progress is being made.
Unfortunately, the internet is an efficient conduit for misinformation, so provide sources to back yourself up if you don't care to be corrected. It's one thing to offer an opinion, it's quite another to make claims that simply aren't accurate.
Unfortunately, the internet is an efficient conduit for misinformation, so provide sources to back yourself up if you don't care to be corrected. It's one thing to offer an opinion, it's quite another to make claims that simply aren't accurate.
You are missing my point 100%.
My point is, my sole contribution to this debate is, that Lutz was not trying to hoodwink anyone. He knows where his sales are. He knows the auto journalists knows. Lutz was giving a big picture review of areas he sees GM going where he wants to take it.
It is one thing to come into an argument and deal with my opinion on topic, it is quite another to jump in out of context with a flame -- all the while actually providing further information that make my point.
No patent on quality at all. Hyundai was doing fine with quality building their own styled cars. They did not need to copy a Japan car. That said, sure I would buy one. Simply the most car out there. If ya need a sedan that has it all, without costing all, then sure this is it - or at least one of the best choices it seems.
I like the Tiburon for style and content too. Really a tempting car. Why doesn't GM have anything like this? Guess the market got too small, as Toyota and Honda gave up on sporty smaller cars too. BTW, the Tiburon and Sonata did excellent in crash tests, and the Sonata has stability control.
As for no room for radical styling, well I see your point, but feel that there is more room than the all too conservative out on the road today. The Chrysler 300 is kinda strange with those high door, and I would imagine has some blind spots. That said, there is always room for a little more style. The previous Sonata was their own baby, and not a Honda or Lexus looking car.
Hope the retro car success of the Mustang doesn't get too far out of hand. Could be a dead-end trap of sorts. While styling hints of days-gone-bye are appreciated in a modern car, simply lifting the past into today by way of older body with newer drivetrain and such is a bit dangerous. Well, unless you plan to sell mainly to older people re-living their past. While GM and Ford is looking back to get ahead in design, it very well could be Japan and Korea are readying plans for new sports cars. Good to see that the Corvette has stayed the course of constant change to the modern.
While I like the New Stang, in some ways I feel like I am looking at 1969 vintage car. This is good, I guess. While the Fox body cars may in no way be superior to the current model, I kinda like their innocence. They were not pretending to be more than a consistent change in design which reflected the original goal of the car. A sporty little pony car, looking ahead, and constantly youthful. I suppose replica cars of the Camaro, 'Cuda, Z, and such would all be very cool, but more so than the kit car look, is the car of tomorrow stylin'. I am in my 50's and have driven cars of the 60's and 70' and liked the style then and now. Do I need to go back - not really. Do cars need to go forward? Most certainly! The new Camaro seems to be new enough, yet here we go with monster sizing. Look at the weight, width and such. Is this for sport or more like an SUV or luxo barge? -Loren
while GM lags behind with smaller cars and hybrid models, I think they're still competitive in the type of vehicles I'd buy, which would most likely be a mid/full-sized car or a standard-sized pickup truck.
Now in the end, I'd probably take an Altima or Charger over something like an Impala, Grand Prix, Malibu, LaCrosse, or Lucerne, but fuel economy wouldn't be the deciding factor. It would be a combination of comfort, styling, performance, interior room, price etc.
While styling hints of days-gone-bye are appreciated in a modern car, simply lifting the past into today by way of older body with newer drivetrain and such is a bit dangerous. Well, unless you plan to sell mainly to older people re-living their past.
That's exactly what they're doing: cashing in on the last flash in the pan (baby boomers at their earnings peak who remember "good" American cars) before the car buying public is dominated by generations who either grew up in reliable Japanese cars or unreliable domestic cars. At that point (about ten years from now) they'll have to sell on price with Chinese-built "tinaments" (to borrow a Rockyism).
>Well, unless you plan to sell mainly to older people re-living their past.
I don't see that being the major buyer. They are bought by youngsters, people in their 30s, 40s, and higher. There's a mixture around here. A very good hit. And they love to show them off in parades since many are convertibles!
The domestics naturally use more domestic content, but it's interesting to see the breakdown.
Here's a weird thing:
"The Chevy HHR, made in Ramos Arizpe, Mexico, is sold with a window sticker mandated by U.S. law saying the vehicle has 85% "domestic" content, meaning parts from the United States or Canada. But Bo Andersson, GM's vice president of global purchasing, said in a recent speech that 64% of the parts value in the HHR originates in Mexico, while 30% comes from the United States. GM said the HHR's label reflects an average of its parts value with larger U.S.-made SUVs, such as the Chevrolet Trailblazer."
Everyone has there own opinion on vehicles. Whether it's price, power, reliable, etc.. I am not one to try to sell a make and model onto anyone. I could really give a &%$#. I have owned my milan with the 3.0L V6 for 8 months and absolutley love it. hasn't been in for any problems once. For 25K, i have every feature i want. The power is just as ballsy as it's competitors. Give them a look at. Certanly not a wast a time or money.
Consumer complaints an accurate gauge of superior engineering and/or assembly quality? This is based on NHTSA complaint files (mycarstats.com) for the largest 6 automakers since 1990: GM - 94000 (all lines) Ford - 95000 (all lines) Chrysler - 74000 (all lines) and then you have the 'Japanese Big 3' Toyota/Lexus - 16000 Nissan/Infinti - 10000 Honda/Acura - 14000 These statisitcs need to be viewed in relation to total cars sold (GM and Toyota currently neck and neck) - but is it any wonder that the intelligent consumer has some difficulties investing in products from GM/Ford/Chrysler?
Exactly! Past as lived or imagined. Some older, and some younger.
I saw a New Stang or two in the parade of cars for the Cruisin' Morro Bay cruise night. The car looks fine, and it is definitely a Mustang. I would rather view the real deal, as in the original in a parade.
Good enough car. I would consider the New/Old Stang, though I do like the Tiburon and others as a more modern day look. Living in the future ya know. -Loren
of the new Mustang is that it gives the buyer a chance to get something that has the style of the classic stang, but without all the issues such as squeaks and rattles, carburetor stutter, poor workmanship (even for back then), that little habit they had of blowing up like a Pinto the moment the drop-in gas tank got breached (a very simple thing to do), etc. Plus, a lot more in the way of creature comforts.
Now yeah, I'd rather see the original at a car show, parade, etc. But as a daily driver I'd probably prefer to go for the current model. Also, I think the car's popularity is broad enough that it's more than just aging baby boomers that are buying them. I've seen a goodly number of younger drivers, as well.
Comments
I’m especially fond of that last metaphor — that was a new one for me. I didn’t even know raisins got stuck in oatmeal; I always thought they sort of floated there proudly, going about their business.''
thought that was funny, but anyways, back to Bob Lutz's speach:
''Anyway, well, now let’s look at some of our awful, boring products and see just how unpopular they are:
Chevrolet HHR
We’ve raised our forecasts twice for this model, from about 60,000 initially to now about 132,000 annually.
March was its best retail month since launch, with very little spent on customer incentives.
California, Texas and Florida are the top three retail states since launch. Those are not traditionally strong markets for GM cars.
So far in 2006, HHR has outsold the Chrysler Pacifica, Nissan Murano, Dodge Durango, and Honda Element.
Our dealers are requesting 200% of our ability to supply
Chevrolet Impala
We are building 250,000 of these a year, and demand is running about 300,000.
March was its best sales month yet. It overtook the Nissan Altima as the third-best selling car in America, behind Camry and Accord.
Buick Lucerne
March was its best sales month since its launch last year, and 91% of sales were retail, meaning non-fleet, non-rental companies.
Lucerne has the second-lowest turn rate in the segment, 25 days, trailing the Toyota Avalon by just one day.
Chevrolet Corvette
The world’s great affordable sports car, Corvette is sold out.
Pontiac Solstice
Solstice? Sold out. Best turn rate of any vehicle in its segment.
Saturn Sky
“All available production for 2006 is accounted for.” In other words, sold out.''
Let’s look at what the “experts” had to say before they came out earlier this year:
University of Maryland business professor Peter Morici: "They're married to large vehicles and big engines, and consumers just aren't buying them right now SUV sales are going to continue to lag and GM is almost in denial on that issue."
Analyst David Healy: "GM is betting the ranch that they can sell SUVs in an environment of $2.50-a-gallon gasoline, but the big SUV segment will continue to shrink, and GM is going to have its work cut out for it."
Autobytel analyst Brian Chee: “Everybody else is coming out with subcompacts, crossovers and smaller cars while GM is alone in the woods when it comes to these big SUVs.”
By the way, it’s worth pointing out that we are most certainly not alone in the woods; Chrysler and Ford are coming out with new fullsize SUVs, and, would you believe it, Toyota is readying a new line of fullsize trucks, too. So, apparently, not everyone thinks this segment is dying out.
It makes you wonder just how these experts get to be experts!
Well, we went ahead and launched our new SUVs anyway. Let’s see how they’re doing:
Year-to-date GM share of the large utility segment is 67.5%, up 8.6 pts from year ago
Non-GM Source of Sales of ’07 models: Tahoe (29.8%), Yukon (27.8%), and Escalade (26.4%)
Average transaction price increase versus last year’s models: Tahoe (+$6.5k), Yukon (+$6.7k), and Escalade (+$10k)
So, we’re selling more of them, for more money. The pundits will say that’s just because they’re brand new, but we’ll see, because we think these are the best SUVs that have ever lived. Take a look at them:
Chevrolet Tahoe
March retail sales were up 35% from February, and it’s doing great on the West Coast.
Total ’07 model year sales are the highest in the segment
In March, it had a turn rate of just 19 days, compared to 80 days for the Ford Expedition and 41 for the Toyota Sequoia
GMC Yukon
March Yukon sales were up 109% from February, and it had a turn rate of just 16 days, on average.
Cadillac Escalade
March sales were up 73% from February. Its total sales lead the Lincoln Navigator by 300 units, and it has outsold the Infiniti QX56, Range Rover and Lexus LX 470 combined.
Vehicles turned in an average of 7 days in March. That means the inventory is turning four times a month.
Now, all of this is amazing to me. We don’t make any cars or trucks that anybody wants to buy but we sure do sell a lot of them. Either we are holding a lot of customers at gunpoint in our dealerships and forcing them into our vehicles, or the so-called experts are absolutely blind to what is happening in the marketplace.
It’s as if the folks working the op/ed and business pages don’t even read the product reviews anymore. Because if they did, they’d see that our cars and trucks are getting largely rave reviews.
Anita Lienert in The Detroit News: “The redesigned Escalade stands out as the sexiest full-size SUV on the market, an awesome Detroit offering that hits a bull's-eye in such important areas as horsepower and cabin design.”
Paul Eisenstein, The Car Connection.com: “The Escalade is about as good as a full-size SUV gets.”
And how bout this one?
Joe Langley, CSM Automotive analyst: “GM’s redesigned full-size SUVs will prove the segment is alive and well despite unexpected events that try to wreck their place in the market. The segment is far from dead. I recommend taking any of them for a drive, and you’ll be as surprised as I was.”
People who think it doesn’t matter who owns our auto industry are flat wrong. They think it doesn’t matter because the Japanese and Germans and Koreans are “producing” in the states now. But they’re not “producing”— they’re “assembling.” The parts are mostly brought from overseas, and the profits for reinvestment don’t stay in the U.S.
These are facts about our domestic auto industry:
GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler account for 4% of the U.S. GDP, and 11% of all manufacturing shipments.
We collectively employ nine out of 10 American autoworkers — and affect 7 million jobs in auto and related industries.
We provide healthcare for 2 million Americans, and pension benefits for 800,000 retirees.
We buy 80% of the auto parts sold in the United States.
And we’ve made 85% of the total investment in the U.S. auto industry since 1980.
If you’ll indulge me, I’d like to read you a letter from someone who understands this. It was written by Congressman John Dingell of Michigan, to the president, in response to his comments on the U.S. auto industry. Congressman Dingell writes:
“The American auto industry is not being hurt, as the Administration suggests, because of the vehicles it is producing. Contrary to the statements of your chief economic adviser, American manufacturers lead the industry in fuel economy in nearly every segment. Our automakers face healthcare and pension costs which foreign automakers do not. ''
It beat it in interior quality, take that Toyota.
By the way, the Fusion is largely derived from a Mazda design, assembled with its Milan and Zephyr siblings in Mexico, while (at least down here) 90% of the 2007 Camrys were built in the United States. And if you want to get subjective, its interior is a dead ringer for various Volkswagen models created by the same designer now working for Ford. I think it is a neat example of the ever-increasing global character to the car business, myself.
This "rah rah" stuff reminds me of how people root for sports teams...
What may happen, just before GM goes into bankruptcy mode, is that Congress has a bill for passing on a new national health care program, a VAT tax, and/or sales tax to help pay for same.
So GM buys 80% of domestic parts for cars. That is hard to believe for some reason. GM has made 85% of the total investment in US auto industry since 1980. Equally astounding. Where has Ford been? So Ford and Toyota, and all the rest, making cars in USA, showing USA content of say 70%,only make up, the last 20% --interesting. Well, I have no numbers, so I will just have to take it on his word. Amazing stats indeed. Now I wish he had not brought the 1980 date to mind. Oh the woes of the cars built in USA in the 80's.
GM V6 cars, as well as, some V8 cars do seem to get pretty good gas mileage. The four bangers, a bit less than say the Civic, but what the heck. The average at GM is good enough.
If GM is on track to avoid bankruptcy and make strong profits moving forward, by gosh, give that CEO a raise. That would be some trick indeed!
" American auto industry is not being hurt, as the Administration suggests, because of the vehicles it is producing " Now where is the proof of that statement. There is a little bit of product out there which is better than the competition, but not much. If people like the product, why aren't they selling that product in larger numbers? No not the rental fleet - retail sales? Why the discounts? If he said, it is not the whole problem, then perhaps I would agree.
Why is DamlierChrysler included in the big three still? They are not wholly owned by the German corporation?
I am still trying to figure out this content concept. Lots of GM parts are made in other countries, along with some being assembled in other countries. They claim the Japanese and Germans are using very little USA parts, if you figure in what Ford must use in their cars. So, if most of the parts, over the years came from abroad in Japan cars, and those cars are rated higher in reliability, then the parts are better? Oh-oh, another Pandora's box is open!
If GM stays open for business, and has some bucks left for development, a really nice Nova and Camaro, of compact size would be nice - please build. A Malibu or Monte, in RWD too- please. Cobalt, Impala and Lucerne can stay FWD to service those on the frozen tundra. Oh yeah, a really edgy looking CTS with new interior, and a new STS with a name and more distinctive styling. An entry level Cadillac based on a new Nova platform, would be cool. Make three engines for all the cars in the inventory. Then whatever engines are required for the SUV and Truck lines.
-Loren
By the way, the Fusion is largely derived from a Mazda design, assembled with its Milan and Zephyr siblings in Mexico, while (at least down here) 90% of the 2007 Camrys were built in the United States
They compared an i4 w/ a v6, because those are the engines those cars come with when priced similarly. I knew you would bring up the Ford being from a Mazda design, but the interior is still all Ford, and that all Ford interior beat the Camry, which was made in Japan, if you read the article.
I think it is possible that Toyota is slipping a bit overall. That said, I sat in a new Camry and it looked tight and well made to me. The bullet proof years, IMHO, for Toyotas where in the 1990's.
The Fusion, no one knows at all as to how reliable a car they will be. The Mazda6 is a good handling and fun ride for an economy sedan. The Fusion should be pretty good too. First and second year out woes though could strike both Fusion and Camry. Camry has a real problem with the 6 speed tranny, I hear. How about a knock-off design of Accord, as in Sonata. They are said to be reliable -- well initial quality -- again who knows.
-Loren
Considering resale, it is likely the Camry is cheaper. The V6 in the Camry has much more power. They are having a problem with the transmissions, but once that is sorted out, the car should be on track again as a leader. I am not big fan of the funny nose on the Camry, and the Fusion may be more fun. But based on the numbers of what you get in power and value, the Camry should win. I personally like the Fusion style more. Interior is pretty good. Would not say better than Camry, but good none-the-less. Compare the Sonata V6 with the Fusion i4, if you are doing price based comparo's for the day. Currently around $19,500 for the V6 Sonata. Add the safety stuff to the Fusion. Bet ya come up with an i4. Here we go again!
-Loren
Goofy statements No 1
Toyota provides work for 300,000 Americans! Yay!
GM goes under and 1,000,000 Americans lose their jobs.
Net loss: 700,000 jobs. Oh oh!!!
Your revised statement No 2
GM supports over 1 million Americans
Socala4 pointed out he is talking about just direct GM employment You are talking about ancillary jobs as well. GM is not the sole employter to the 825,000 jobs outside of its direct employment. These people also 'get paid' by policemen, teamsters, hospital workers, Toyota retiree's, DC workers, legal and illegal immigrants, etc, etc. None of these ancillary workers are paid directly by GM. If a teamster mainly works for GM now there is nothing stopping him from working for the new Hyundai plant or one of the new Toyota plants going up.
In addition a huge part of the 180,000 direct workers currently at GM work now for the truck, SUV, Corvette and Caddy divisions and these are going nowhere. These divisions are making huge profits and GM will certainly concentrate its resources in keeping them healthy. Even if GM stated tomorrow 'We are out of the auto business here. We are going to import them all'. It would still be a huge employer due to it's other hugely profitable divisions with 125,000 or 150,000 direct employees.
Using the same ratio you imply above:
If 185,000 direct employees support 1,000,000 jobs
then 135,000 direct employees will support about 730,000 jobs.
The other 270,000 will not just 'vanish' they eill move or become re-educated and participate elsewhere. Frankly the scare tactics of the unions to it's members and the communities sounds to me something like this.
'If GM fails or downsizes then you ( employees and local communities ) will all go on the welfare lines - because you are incapable of doing anything else. If you don't get paid by the General you are lost because you can't do anything else.'
Is this you?
I don't see content of rental lots costing sales in this area for GM products. I think's someone's platform for their party speeches.
I will check the local Hertz lot to see what's sitting. Last trip by it was Datsuns, Corollas, and maybe 1 GM. Might have been an Impala. There may have been a Camry sitting. Maybe I'll loop through the airport just to see what's on the lot there at the rentals.
Somehow I think "they doth protest too much." There's something wrong with the constant protestations, don't you think?
I keep seeing those door gaps on Toyo and Hon products as they go past. There were even gaps in the BMW on the way to Cinci last Tuesday. Nice guy owns it but I hated to tell him the interior was cheap as, well, plastic.!!! Heh, heh. The constant shifting of the trans was awful to sit and listen to. They surely could do something to smooth the shifts. A manual trans could shift better. Perhaps he has been indoctrinated to think that is the only way trans should shift, but my cars do so much better at smooth shifting in normal driving. And they probably both get much better mileage than his 'trim' BMW model. It probably was a 4 cyl at that.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
On a more relevant point, I recently saw the football chick Suzy Kolber advertising for Chevrolet and she was actually comparing a Chevrolet SUV to a Lexus SUV and claiming that the Chevrolet was $17,000 cheaper. Why not compare it to a Ferrari and state that it is $200,000 cheaper? Where was Cadillac in this equation?
Why not compare a Fusion to a Zephyr ? There goes $9K for better interior.
-Loren
Maybe Chevy needs to get up to Cadillac status. Better yet, have GM cars, with only the top line stuff Cadillac, and drop the rest of the names. GM Saturn seems to be going Opel, so just add Holdens too, and make it the Saturn GM Import line.
Have a Nova & Camaro smaller RWD car, Monte Carlo RWD and Impala AWD, the Cadillac CTS,CTS or smaller coupe, and a new STS, and take Lucerne into the Caddy line, and be done with the rest. Oh forgot SUV and Trucks by GMC. And the GM Corvette V8 and V6. -Loren
BMW and Mercedes can afford to get away with reliability problems (overwhelmingly computer related problems due to all the techno wizardry) because BMW and Mercedes are premium brands that monied buyers want. No GM Brand or Ford brand has this cachet so they can't get away with reliability issues in their higher priced cars. Not fair? Maybe. Will crying about it help? No because people are people and have decided this in the marketplace.
Honda and Toyota/Lexus can get away with some vanilla styled cars because of the reality and or reputation of rock solid reliability, superior build quality and fit and finish. No Gm or Ford brand has this reputation ( Save Buick whose avg aged buyer is 65) so we can't accept an uninspired looking car that shows up in rental lots everywhere. Some may whine about the inequity of it all, but it's what we the buying public have decided. The public has decided that with few exceptions we'll take an Accord/Camry/Altima over a G6, Gran Prix, Malibu, Impala or Fusion. Rental fleet sales don't count here and seeing Impalas all over the local Budget Rent a Car lot here makes me even less inclined to buy one.
I am in the market for a mid sized or full sized sedan 22-35K. There isn't a domestic sedan at any price that I've seen with an interior anywhere close to a 33K Acura TL. Lucerene has a Chevy Impala interior and no one under 60 drives one. The G6 has an awful-cheap interior. The Chrysler 300 already has a lousy mechanical reputation and gets horrible gas mileage. The Fusion/Milan are attractive but I sincerely doubt they are built as well as am Accord or Camry or Altima. The Five Hundred/Montego look bland, have uninspired drivetrains and again I can't see them being built better than the Japanese leaders. The Milan will get a long look from me and the pricing and features for the money are attractive. Every other car I am seriously considering is a Japanese make: Camry, Accord, TL, Altima and Maxima.
So there it is. If Gm and Ford apologists and if GM and Ford itself want to attack me than so be it. The majority of car buyers feel exactly as I do and where I live it's not even close except for SUV's and trucks. GM and Ford need buyers like myself and right now they aren't getting us. When domestics makers can manufacture cars with the quality interior/ exterior styling/ reliability/ and performance I expect at the price level I can afford then I will consider them.
It is no secret that domestics need two extra cylinders to deliver the same level of performance as Japanese. Examples:
Lucerne V8 v Avalon V6
pImpala V8 v Altima V6
Exploder V8 v Pathfinder V6
Dakota V8 v Tacoma V6
GTO V8 v Z V6
In all of the above, the V6 powered vehicles are as fast as V8s. Lucerne and Dakota are more than a second slower to 60.
Big 3 apologists would argue that getting a V8 for the same price of V6 is actually a good deal convienently ignoring the gas mileage penalty and worse handling.
Seriously, it would be interesting to go to the Kia dealership and look at the Optima. Suppose to be a good car I guess. Have not researched it, and have not been up North to the dealership. The one in the city here closed shop. That was when Kia was down, and nearly out. I think the Sonata is a deal. Using the design of Accord is not showing much though to me, especially when they seem to have some good designs of their own. Hey, keep it Hyundai and not Honda rip-offs. But it is a great value at $19,500 for the V6 now. Actually a larger car than the Accord. - Loren
P.S. Looked it up on JD Powers and Kia is not rated as highly as Hyundai in this class. I would stay the course with Hyundai. Interesting that Altima is not highly rated for mechanical - wonder what's wrong in that respect? Actually, some GM cars are rated well for mechanical. Not sure about driving excitement... OK, maybe the Vette. But that is $45K plus replacement of the nose when I hit someting on the ground... can't afford one.
Parts is parts, I guess. The Mustang is still built in USA. Will all the Fusions be built in Mexico? Where is the engine and tranny made? The Mustang has French or American transmissions, and German and USA engines, unless I am missing some options here. Those are the ones I saw listed.
The parts come together in USA.
Where you able to obtain any discount on that Accord, if I may ask? Did you consider the Altima, Sonata, Impala, or other US make?
-Loren
I may not have been clear. I said there were a couple of GM commercials on the radio:
The first one was the Buick commercial that talked about how Lexus ES did not have a V8, and Lucerne had one starting at only $29xxx.
The second one was a Chevrolet commercial, singing about "baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet".
I was contrasting those two commercials to the MPG ads I had heard in the same couple of days on the radio from Toyota.
HHR
We’ve raised our forecasts twice for this model, from about 60,000 initially to now about 132,000 annually.
March was its best retail month since launch, with very little spent on customer incentives.
California, Texas and Florida are the top three retail states since launch. Those are not traditionally strong markets for GM cars.
Well, he is talking numbers of units. Of course 3 of the most populous states will have the biggest sales! He doesn't talk about market share of HHR sales in those states relative to midwest states. This doesn't say much of anything.
So far in 2006, HHR has outsold the Chrysler Pacifica, Nissan Murano, Dodge Durango, and Honda Element.
He selectively picks just weaker sellers, then says that they are outselling them! What about the PT Cruiser, the most direct competitor? I don't see that mentioned.
Chevrolet Impala
We are building 250,000 of these a year, and demand is running about 300,000.
March was its best sales month yet. It overtook the Nissan Altima as the third-best selling car in America, behind Camry and Accord.
And how many of those are to fleets vs. the competitors? He doesn't say.
Buick Lucerne
March was its best sales month since its launch last year, and 91% of sales were retail, meaning non-fleet, non-rental companies.
But he mentions fleet sales here, when the percentage of fleet sales is lower. What he's saying is that we don't sell a lot of Lucernes to fleets, and sales are continuing to increase. But no absolute numbers presented.
So he says sales numbers are highest on HHR in the most populous states (duh). He says Impala sales are very high, but doesn't say how many are to fleets. And he says Lucerne's sales continue to increase and have few fleet sales, but doesn't give overall numbers so you don't know if those numbers are really small.
Sounds like selective spin to me.
Good ol' French name, that Chevrolet.
-Loren
Does Accord and Camry have a patent on the high quality, midsize car?
If you build a new car from scratch and give it the best of everything, it MUST turn out resembling the A&C. If it does not resemble the A&C, then it will not be of decent quality. As for styling, there are only so many ways to style a small car. There simply isn't room for radical styling.
GTO V8 v Z V6
In all of the above, the V6 powered vehicles are as fast as V8s. Lucerne and Dakota are more than a second slower to 60.
Sorry, but a Z can't touch a GTO in acceleration. And the Impala V8 is faster than the Altima. It is the 4 speed transmissions that are holding GM back, not the engines.
Is that so?
Lutz made the comments to auto journalists, who have ready access to market data.
In fact, not just auto journalists, the general public as well:
For instance, the PT Cruiser sold 32k units for the year, and 10,224 in March. The HHR sold 25,308 for the year, and 8,698 in March. April for the HHR were 9,352 bringing sales up to 34,660 (I do not have Chrysler PT sales for April)
The Lucerne sold 29,122 through April.
Chevrolet sells overall around 15% to fleets. Altima and Camry somewhat lower but with siginificant numbers.
It would be silly for Lutz, in an interview where he is saying what GM is trying to do to simply regurgitate raw numbers, when those numbers are on the web and available for all to find.
Finally, if the HHR is selling above projections and well in States where GM typically does not sell well, GM is either really nailing its weaker states, or the car is selling well in the Midwest. Not sure, really, why that would matter in any event. If GM sells more HHRs than planned, who cares if the sales are in Florida or Minnesota?
GM has multi-page adds in newsprint and magazines on gas mileage.
On the other hand, I've noticed quite a few Toyota print adds touting how rough and rugged their trucks and how powerful the new Lexus engines are.
Are you saying GM is obliged to do its media buy the same as Toyota?
GM has two versions of hybrids on the way. It is looking at bringing diesels over as the low sulfur diesel comes on line.
It appears GM will bring the Astra directly from Europe. I imagine it is likely it will bring the Corsa over as well.
Incorrect, and I've already cited numerous sources of data that shows this to be incorrect.
According to this article, GM's fleet sales in January were 38% of total sales.
GM and the other domestics dominate the top fleet nameplates. No transplant has a car in the Top 10.
Fleet stats for MY 2004 make it more obvious still:
Badge/ %age of overall sales to fleets/ %age of car sales to fleets:
Chevrolet / 26.9% / 43.3%
Nissan / 8.3% / 12.5%
Toyota / 6.2% / 9.5%
It doesn't take a math whiz to know that 12.5% and 9.5% are a lot more than just "somewhat lower" than 43.3%.
It simply amazes me that anyone here could possibly believe that fleet sales are not an issue for GM, when even GM publicly acknowledges it. Why the denial of such a basic, obvious fact?
The 3.5l is a gem, no wonder, they were probably scared. The 4 banger in the Fusion ain't too bad, though, so they should have compared the 4 cylinder models head-to-head.
What's next, we'll here that JapaneseCarFans prefers the Fit over the Aveo. :sick:
-juice
Actually, we'll hear that NotDeadFromTheNeckUp prefers the Fit over the Aveo.... :P
Who is denying anything?
I was answering a post concerning spin, not fleet sales. Your link further confirms my point that specific information on issues the OP took to task are available. An executive talking big picture does not need to rehash what is already out there.
I note a few things however:
First, the article talks about a big jump in fleet sales in January. The Lutz interview was talking April sales.
The article also says rental fleet sales dropped in the following months.
The level of hostility in your posts is not appreciated. If you cannot deal with me in a civil manner - including reading my posts and responding to them in context - please just put me on your ignore list.
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2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Being that most rental fleet purchases are made during January and July, it would follow that fleet sales would be lower during April. Overall fleet sales for the first quarter were actually above last year, so no progress is being made.
Unfortunately, the internet is an efficient conduit for misinformation, so provide sources to back yourself up if you don't care to be corrected. It's one thing to offer an opinion, it's quite another to make claims that simply aren't accurate.
You are missing my point 100%.
My point is, my sole contribution to this debate is, that Lutz was not trying to hoodwink anyone. He knows where his sales are. He knows the auto journalists knows. Lutz was giving a big picture review of areas he sees GM going where he wants to take it.
It is one thing to come into an argument and deal with my opinion on topic, it is quite another to jump in out of context with a flame -- all the while actually providing further information that make my point.
Both statements were not accurate, and I corrected them. It's not a personal issue, it is a matter of keeping the discussion honest.
I like the Tiburon for style and content too. Really a tempting car. Why doesn't GM have anything like this? Guess the market got too small, as Toyota and Honda gave up on sporty smaller cars too. BTW, the Tiburon and Sonata did excellent in crash tests, and the Sonata has stability control.
As for no room for radical styling, well I see your point, but feel that there is more room than the all too conservative out on the road today. The Chrysler 300 is kinda strange with those high door, and I would imagine has some blind spots.
That said, there is always room for a little more style. The previous Sonata was their own baby, and not a Honda or Lexus looking car.
Hope the retro car success of the Mustang doesn't get too far out of hand. Could be a dead-end trap of sorts. While styling hints of days-gone-bye are appreciated in a modern car, simply lifting the past into today by way of older body with newer drivetrain and such is a bit dangerous. Well, unless you plan to sell mainly to older people re-living their past. While GM and Ford is looking back to get ahead in design, it very well could be Japan and Korea are readying plans for new sports cars. Good to see that the Corvette has stayed the course of constant change to the modern.
While I like the New Stang, in some ways I feel like I am looking at 1969 vintage car. This is good, I guess. While the Fox body cars may in no way be superior to the current model, I kinda like their innocence. They were not pretending to be more than a consistent change in design which reflected the original goal of the car. A sporty little pony car, looking ahead, and constantly youthful. I suppose replica cars of the Camaro, 'Cuda, Z, and such would all be very cool, but more so than the kit car look, is the car of tomorrow stylin'. I am in my 50's and have driven cars of the 60's and 70' and liked the style then and now. Do I need to go back - not really. Do cars need to go forward? Most certainly! The new Camaro seems to be new enough, yet here we go with monster sizing. Look at the weight, width and such. Is this for sport or more like an SUV or luxo barge?
-Loren
Now in the end, I'd probably take an Altima or Charger over something like an Impala, Grand Prix, Malibu, LaCrosse, or Lucerne, but fuel economy wouldn't be the deciding factor. It would be a combination of comfort, styling, performance, interior room, price etc.
-Loren
-juice
That's exactly what they're doing: cashing in on the last flash in the pan (baby boomers at their earnings peak who remember "good" American cars) before the car buying public is dominated by generations who either grew up in reliable Japanese cars or unreliable domestic cars. At that point (about ten years from now) they'll have to sell on price with Chinese-built "tinaments" (to borrow a Rockyism).
I don't see that being the major buyer. They are bought by youngsters, people in their 30s, 40s, and higher. There's a mixture around here. A very good hit. And they love to show them off in parades since many are convertibles!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060507/BUSINESS01/605070725/10- 14
The domestics naturally use more domestic content, but it's interesting to see the breakdown.
Here's a weird thing:
"The Chevy HHR, made in Ramos Arizpe, Mexico, is sold with a window sticker mandated by U.S. law saying the vehicle has 85% "domestic" content, meaning parts from the United States or Canada.
But Bo Andersson, GM's vice president of global purchasing, said in a recent speech that 64% of the parts value in the HHR originates in Mexico, while 30% comes from the United States.
GM said the HHR's label reflects an average of its parts value with larger U.S.-made SUVs, such as the Chevrolet Trailblazer."
No. I said around. And your contribution was completely aside from the point I was making.
In any event, your article talks about one month, not an entire year.
GM - 94000 (all lines)
Ford - 95000 (all lines)
Chrysler - 74000 (all lines)
and then you have the 'Japanese Big 3'
Toyota/Lexus - 16000
Nissan/Infinti - 10000
Honda/Acura - 14000
These statisitcs need to be viewed in relation to total cars sold (GM and Toyota currently neck and neck) - but is it any wonder that the intelligent consumer has some difficulties investing in products from GM/Ford/Chrysler?
I saw a New Stang or two in the parade of cars for the Cruisin' Morro Bay cruise night. The car looks fine, and it is definitely a Mustang. I would rather view the real deal, as in the original in a parade.
Good enough car. I would consider the New/Old Stang, though I do like the Tiburon and others as a more modern day look. Living in the future ya know.
-Loren
Now yeah, I'd rather see the original at a car show, parade, etc. But as a daily driver I'd probably prefer to go for the current model. Also, I think the car's popularity is broad enough that it's more than just aging baby boomers that are buying them. I've seen a goodly number of younger drivers, as well.