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Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • garthfan1061garthfan1061 Member Posts: 5
    LOL, sorry. I once was speaking with a gentleman who considered his Mazda an American vehicle because it was assembled in the US... After a brief discussion on the cost of engineering, R&D, part production, and other factors- as compared to the cost of assembly- his mind was changed. Also keep seeing these Toyota commercials for their "American" trucks which are, again, only assembled here.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I once was speaking with a gentleman who considered his Mazda an American vehicle because it was assembled in the US... After a brief discussion on the cost of engineering, R&D, part production, and other factors- as compared to the cost of assembly- his mind was changed.

    Funny, I was under the impression that company profits go to shareholders, and the biggest individual shareholder is that blue oval place in Dearborn, MI. :confuse: They even offer the Ford discount.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    wrong, but assembly of the vehicle is still a major step in production, and having the assembly plant here employs American workers, plus the added jobs of the suppliers who locate around the main assembly plant...

    It may not ALL be American, but having an import assembly plant does add economic value to a region that only has farming as its primary industry...
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    If I bought a Chinese-made bicycle at Wal-Mart and went home and assembled it, could I then claim the bicycle was "Made in the USA?"
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    If you employed YOU to assemble the bike and paid tax, yup, you can.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >If I bought a Chinese-made bicycle at Wal-Mart and went home and assembled it, could I then claim the bicycle was "Made in the USA?"

    Heard a guy comment that the head of (defunct) Huffy bicycle company said they started manufacturing in China because people wouldn't pay $2 more for a Huffy bike made in the US at Walmart.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • daysailerdaysailer Member Posts: 720
    I suspect that "people wouldn't pay" is code for WALMART wouldn't pay.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    "people wouldn't pay" is similar code to "jobs americans won't do." It's a lie.

    As for foreign vs. domestic % of cars, read carefully. Automobile sales stickers generally list the percentage of foreign and domestic parts, plus where the "final assembly point" is located.

    But the Detroit three LOVE to say things such as '90% of our cars are built in North America,' because they know that 90% of people have forgotten their high school geography -- Mexico is part of North America!

    BTW, isn't it ironic that US automakers spent the 80s and 90s moving their factories to foreign countries, while Honda and Toyota spent the same time building factories in the US? Now Ford and GM teeter on the verge of bankruptcy, and Daimler is dropping Chrysler like a bad habit, while Toyota and Honda continue to produce superior products and sell them in superior numbers, even at higher prices than "domestic" cars!
  • johnwayne711johnwayne711 Member Posts: 4
    I'm not trying to completely discount the fact that, yes, Americans are making the money from assembly plants here. However, assembly isn't what it used to be. The days of a factory full of American laborers producing all aspects of a car are long gone. Now it's mostly machines and robotic welders that piece the cars together, with actual working humans only where absolutely necessary. While these workers do earn money and pay taxes, this division of vehicle production has to be the least beneficial for our economy. I'd be willing to bet that every engineer and researcher that had a hand in the same car (or company) makes 5x more money than the laborer at the assembly plant. Also, the main components of the vehicle are a large part of the cost. You can't get an engine and transmission for pennies. My concern with my new car purchase is that a good portion of my thousands of dollars go directly to the American economy; whether it be the laborer in KC, MO who builds it, the company that built my engine and transmission, or the guy who makes $200,000 a year that helped design and develop it.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    >If I bought a Chinese-made bicycle at Wal-Mart and went home and assembled it, could I then claim the bicycle was "Made in the USA?"

    Heard a guy comment that the head of (defunct) Huffy bicycle company said they started manufacturing in China because people wouldn't pay $2 more for a Huffy bike made in the US at Walmart.

    Anyone that buys a bicycle at Wal-Mart deserves exactly what they get. ;)
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Oh, ain't that the truth! My oldest daughter's first bike was a Barbie special from Wal Mart about 13 years ago. By the first time my second daughter rode it the fork broke from metal fatigue. I went to a bike shop and bought her a Trek.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Oh, ain't that the truth! My oldest daughter's first bike was a Barbie special from Wal Mart about 13 years ago. By the first time my second daughter rode it the fork broke from metal fatigue. I went to a bike shop and bought her a Trek.

    Good man, that will last through several more kids and be easier for them to ride to boot.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Yeah, I'm starting the last two on it now. Since there's two I'll have to get another but it will no doubt still be about for yet another generation.

    The oldest now has a Mongoose that was bought before they started heading south and the next has a Trek. So do I.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Hey now, I bought a bike at Wal-mart. It's perfectly good for leisurely rolling around the neighborhood, which is all I expect of it.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Hey now, I bought a bike at Wal-mart. It's perfectly good for leisurely rolling around the neighborhood, which is all I expect of it.

    Yes yes, and a Chevette is perfectly good for getting to work and back :P
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    When the fork breaks and dumps you on the street don't say I didn't warn you......

    My daughter escaped with minor damage. Always wear your helmet - especially on a Wal Mart bike....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • wheels_r_superwheels_r_super Member Posts: 44
    The Chinese will have to go thru the same learning curve as Ford did when it introduced it's first (successful???) compact - The Mustang (or Falcon if you like). The Mustang was a lowly re-skinned Falcon. I purchased a 66 that was 2 years old and the POS fell apart piece by piece. Ford offered me 200.00 on trade in for a 302 V-8 Maverick. With only 66k mile thats all the junk was worth. I took it. The Maverick was a better car. Man, that 302 had some punch. I used to catch big Caddies going up a grade and just blow their proverbial doors off, much to their astonishment.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I hate to beat a dead horse, but the Big 3 moved plants solely, or almost solely, to avoid the silly work rules of the UAW, plain and simple...

    The Japanese have built plants here, make a quality product, and, I believe, built ALL of their plants in nonunion territory (except for Honda in Marysville OH, whcih I think is still nonunion, 20 years later)...

    If the Big 3 could dump the UAW, I think they would build here tomorrow...

    Maybe I am paranoid, but I do believe that the UAW is a greater detrimental influence than most imagine, because, aside from the union, the Japanese plants live under all the OSHA, EPA, rules, but their labor costs are not governed by a union contract, and, they can fire lousy workers at will...

    Drunk/stoned/lousy UAW workers will stay on the line, making junk product, almost 2 years before union appeals and grievance hearings force them fired and off the line...this is all the union is good for, and it has damaged the USA automakers...

    The union, IMO, is the only variable that explains why Big 3 are leaving the US, and Japanese/Korean are building here like mad...

    I look forward to the day when classes on ancient history include the Roman Empire, the Dark Ages, and the union movement in the USA...
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    UAW may be partly responsible for big 3 woes, but they are not the end of it. Poor product planning and lack of initiatives to improve (more flexible) production lines are just a couple of examples of big 3 decision makers have brought to the plate. What the 3 are doing isn't just to escape UAW, but to take advantage of something the rest of the business world is enamored with... outsourcing. Labor is cheaper elsewhere, and importing products (regardless of the location of the headquarters) hasn't been subjected to tariffs. It is called, cutting costs.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Not quite all. Toyota has a JV with GM in Fremont CA. The factory is union and makes the Corolla, Vibe and Tacoma. Toyota is also in Indiana, which I always considered to be a "union" state.

    The http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2007/index.cfm has a handy list of what they consider to be union made vehicles.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Drunk/stoned/lousy UAW workers will stay on the line, making junk product, almost 2 years before union appeals and grievance hearings force them fired and off the line...this is all the union is good for, and it has damaged the USA automakers

    Marsha: I am an IBEW member. I work hard, earn every penny of my $32/hr, don't drink, smoke, or do drugs, and am a very good person. I highly resent your remarks about unions. All we want to do is keep what we have earned though the bargaining process. If you think that striking or other union tactics is bad, ask the FORMER employees of A.T. Cross company, who 90% lost their jobs just because they decided it was better (read: CHEAPER) to make pens in China.This from a company who since 1866 has made the highest quality writing instruments in the world. That is the tactics of the CEO's of the world- F@#K the worker, it's all about me and the stock.
  • wheels_r_superwheels_r_super Member Posts: 44
    I hate to see this turn into Union Bashing, but you must understand, that by paying a union worker what they think their worth (instead of what they would be paid if there was open competition for jobs)there in not enough $$ left in the pot to do the kind of engineering / research work needed to keep the company consistently ahead of the competition. I was a computer engineer installing data acquisition systems at Detroit Diesel up north and the union worker sweeping the floors made more than I did: That is what the company there told me! So be proud of what you won, but figure this: Germany defeated (won) France. That didn't mean they were going to be able to keep it. There is always going to be some kill-joy who doesn't think you won fare and square. And then there is the rest of us wondering why we should buy a car built by someone making more money than us, doing the same lever of work, non-union.
    It's an image problem that goes along with your wins.
  • stuckinohiostuckinohio Member Posts: 26
    To me is that I get a damn good product, just like my '88 Astro with 245,000 miles on it and I still ask a lot out of it, that does exactly as I want it to and lasts as long as I need it to. I have never, read that again, never been stranded by a GM product, which is exactly why I buy them.

    And I won't feel bad when the Yuppie tells me I should have bought a Toyota. I smile and stare at my old van, which isn't so pretty anymore, and think of all the many miles I put on it dragging this or that around, towing campers and boats, and hauling large loads of firewood, concrete, and other various things around, and know that it's still chugging, and words won't change that.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    My point is that we have to stick up for ourselves, and that it is not fair for a company to just pick up their stuff and go overseas, and expect us to still be able to buy their product. At some point in time, their is a breaking point.

    Many people complain about the jobs bank. However, what most people don't understand is that if GM invests (YES INVESTS) tens of thousands of dollars to train employees on how to assemble their product, and they hit a slow point, it is in their best interests to keep them from going to another manufacturer, especially where they are all clustered up in Michigan. Then, when things pick up, they would have to train a new hire. Also, they keep them off of they unemployment rolls for a year.
  • wheels_r_superwheels_r_super Member Posts: 44
    Bless ya, cooterbfd. I agree. I married a union girl from Pa. so I now understand the Union. Without ya, the rest of us would be making peanuts and never get Christmas week off. Thank you, Thankyou... But God help the poor car company that has a strong union. Ford is in big trouble. You guys just talked them out of more of the profit than they could handle.
    I quit Ford after the POS Mustang, but I quit GM because they could not compete in re-sale value. Ideally you don't like to buy something so expensive that it costs you too much to get rid of it or too cheap that they are starving their workers.
    Enter something in between. We hate to see Ford and GM hurting. So goes GM, so goes the nation. Delphi has just indicated that they want to turn that around. That is good. It's a signal things are a changing because you guy do see the light.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I'm no proponent of UAW and can see how they've been hurting the 3, but let us stop blaming them for every issue. To begin with, I doubt it was the union who got all the power it has today at gun point. Somebody had to give it... why must the management of these 3 get a free pass for the woes of the companies?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Ford's president stepped down and gave the position to a guy that saved some airplane company, GM seems to be executing a turn around plan and actually making decisions on the management level, and Chrysler got bought by a German company and then dumped. I think i would be pissed at the guy who sold it, but other than that I don't know who to vilify.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Isn't it amazing how the unions ruined the knowledgeable management of those companies all alone. They have so much power they've not reduced wages one cent, not even for new hires, in the past 15 years. Why even the UNIONS at Delphi aren't accepting lower wages by almost one half. Bet the past managers of Delphi and the current ones are sitting pretty with their high salaries and golden parachutes, etc., etc. ;)

    It's just terrible what those unions have done. ;)

    And to think that they might be getting paid more than a computer installation/setup person... unthinkable. ;)

    Assembly line work experience for a reporter

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I used to work for a company that dealt with union. I was a management employee, who had to follow different rules... no overtime (union employees got paid, IIRC, 1.5 times as much per hour), more vacation and just more of everything. Not sure how the salaries stacked up (I was just starting anyway).

    That said, I couldn't blame unions for asking for more and more. It is human nature. The question is... who or what gave them the power to?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Good link - wish it was longer. Edmunds did Confessions of a Car Salesman - maybe we need to send a journalist to work the line for a few weeks and write about life in the trenches from a newbie's outsider viewpoint.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    I was looking at that same assembly area a few months ago on a tour. I commented in some discussion here about the myth that some posters still spout against GM and other US manufacturers as being lazy, imprecise, careless, etc., in their assembly. I saw workers being extremely efficient and careful in their work. The vehicles and their content could have had any manufacturer's name on them; the workers were union and cared. There was no waste.

    I want to tour a foreign company's line. I saw one on their website and the clips they showed gave me concern. The workers were moving very fast and looked like mistakes could happen at that pace.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I'll admit, it's tough for the USA to compete in a global economy...remember, for every ONE of us, there are SEVEN people in either India or China.

    We could probably do better in terms of healthcare for ourselves, with some sort of govt subsidy for it. One thing I can't stand is people complaining about unions asking for fully paid healthcare because they don't get the same benefits, yet NOBODY complains to the Blue Crosses of the world when, with a 3% inflation rate in this country, they ask for 12-15% a YEAR!!!!! Why do they get away with it????? If we went into a grocery store and found our favorite cereal 15% more expensive every year, eventually we'd do without.

    As far as pensions go, we do need reform. 50 yrs ago, you graduate HS, get a job at 18, work there till your 62, retire, take your pension, and live happily ever after until you die in 10-15 yrs. Today, after you graduate college, you settle into that job at 25, work 30 yrs until 55, and we all expect that pension till we die,30 yrs later. Pensions WILL collapse if this keeps up. If the big 3 go belly up, WE THE TAXPAYERS will foot the bill for their pensions. It doesn't help that as workforces shrink, companies use attrition (read: forced early retirement) to lower their payrolls, yet all this does is shift the burden from payroll to pension. Maybe we need to make rules stating that, no matter how long you work for a company, you must be 62 to start collecting your pension.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Oh man! Now I have to "cross-off" Cross pens from my shopping list! I remember my girlfriend going to Office Max and buying a pack of pens that were made in China. Out of ten, not a dang one worked. Off to the landfill they went. I'd have rather paid more and had pens that work.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Right on! I still have a 1988 Buick Park Avenue and a 1989 Cadillac Brougham that are still going strong. I also have a 2002 Cadillac Seville STS and my girlfriend has a 2005 Buick LaCrosse. We are extremely happy with our GM vehicles.

    There's something about an old car like your Astro van or my Park Ave. Maybe they're not so pretty anymore, but they are faithful like a good dog.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Wal~Mart and Target, etc. want stuff made overseas so the stuff is cheaper. A lot of people who work for Wal~Mart are so poorly paid they can't even afford to shop there. They go to dollar stores.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    the GM/Toy plant in Fremont, but I believe that was established so that GM could learn from Toyota...

    Whoever made the comment about golden parachutes, I do agree with you, but when your Big 3 car starts to fall apart, no one gets mad at the parachute guy, they look to the folks on the line who install stuff poorly or improperly...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Talk about strange bedfellows in that plant - I wonder if the GM workers bought cupcakes the day that Toy passed GM in worldwide sales?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >if the GM workers bought cupcakes

    I wonder if they're talking a merger of the two companies. ;)

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    but when your Big 3 car starts to fall apart, no one gets mad at the parachute guy, they look to the folks on the line who install stuff poorly or improperly...

    I am starting to feel bad for the guys who were asked to assemble likes of Aztek and Excursion. Or, their unwillingness to work on more fuel efficient cars as opposed to trucks.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    ...is neatly summed up in the comment of one UAW leader in Flint, Michigan, in an article on the Jobs Bank in today's Detroit News.

    He said (and I'm paraphrasing here), that GM didn't give its workers any of these wonderful benefits or high pay. The union won them.

    What he forgets is that before there was anything for the union to win for the workers, GM had to make money to pay for those wages and benefits. It was GM's sales - generated by vehicles that people bought - that made the pay and benefits enjoyed by union members possible.

    Now I'm sure someone will say, "Well, the UAW didn't design the Aztek, run Oldsmobile into the ground, or put Dodge and Plymouth into the same price class." Which is true.

    On the other side of the coin, the UAW didn't invent the annual styling change to spur sales; arrange brands into a stepladder to encourage buyers to "move up" (a concept that Toyota is copying with Scion and Lexus); engineer the 1955 smallblock Chevy V-8; design the original Mustang; push the concept of the minivan from drawing board to showroom; or design the 1984 Jeep Cherokee and 1991 Ford Explorer.

    Yet, the UAW was certainly happy to grab its share of the profits generated by those vehicles and decisions.

    (Actually, one could say more than its share, as UAW workers are paid far more what they would receive on the free market for non-automotive jobs requiring their level of skill and education.)

    But, everyone loves a winner. Or, I should say, the profits generated by a winner...

    The UAW seems to forget that if one or more the Big 2.5 goes belly up, its workers will go down with it. And if America really cared, they would buy Impalas and Sebrings instead of Accords and Camrys. Which, they aren't...
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually it's 5/1 China vs US and 3/1 India vs US in population.

    With that many people per job the cost of the job is definitely going to bid down. Imagine if there were 4 others in your town who could do your job just as well as you could.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    back to the basic concept of capitalism...workers are always, and will always be expendable, as they generate nothing on their own, but work to create profits for their employer...simply put, if there ain't no profit, there ain't no job for the worker...

    The company will ALWAYS be more important than the worker, and it MUST be that way, unless this country literally educates its people to all be self employed...
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    ...or we turn communist.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The ranking of the top 10 'American-made' vehicles by the content of American-made parts as compiled by cars.com.

    REported in the San Antonio press: Top 10 American Vehicles
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I confess that had never crossed my mind...
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    if there ain't no profit, there ain't no job for the worker

    If the worker has no job, he has no money. No money = no sales for the company. Concept simple enough for you????

    Not only do we have China and India to worry about, we have 12 million ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS here, and countless MORE millions waiting to get in. All they will do is depress wages in this country further.
  • wheels_r_superwheels_r_super Member Posts: 44
    "Talk about strange bedfellows in that plant - I wonder if the GM workers bought cupcakes the day that Toy passed GM in worldwide sales?"
    Hey, I owned a Toyota Vibe for 3 years. It looks like a Pontiac but sound like a Toyota.
    If you know the history about the Fremont plant, GM went to shut it down and Toyota came in and did something sort or rare: saved a plant closing from the rust bucket.
  • wheels_r_superwheels_r_super Member Posts: 44
    You only have to look at the airline industry to see that un-happy workers, asked to take heavy pay cuts, are killing the Flyers. I.E. Pilots calling in sick as pay-back, etc.

    Would I buy a car made by a union worker who is happy and their employer is making money? Yes!

    Should I buy a car from a company losing money, cutting benefits and costs to the bone for its unhappy, over worked, under appreciated workers. Tuff Call!

    If the Asians want to build a car with 3 dollar an hour labor, then so the world goes! The unions can always start a new hamburger chain with full retirement and medical benefits. Of course a 30 dollar hamburger with a 3 year warranty may not sell in today's global economy.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Should I buy a car from a company losing money, cutting benefits and costs to the bone for its unhappy, over worked, under appreciated workers. Tuff Call!

    If the Asians want to build a car with 3 dollar an hour labor, then so the world goes! The unions can always start a new hamburger chain with full retirement and medical benefits. Of course a 30 dollar hamburger with a 3 year warranty may not sell in today's global economy.

    Well, would you buy a car from a company that is making money hand over fist, and talking about cutting pay and benefits for their employees? That's exactly what's happening in Georgetown, Ky., and they may be headed for unionization.

    If the asians built the product or performed the service you perform at $3/hr, how would you be able to afford your new car???
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I can buy a new GMC PU built by Union labor in Indiana or a new Toyota PU built in San Antonio by non-union labor. The big difference is most of the money from the Toyota ends up in a Tokyo bank. While the GMC workers share in the profits of their labor. And I get a superior truck from the Union laborer. At least a solid trouble free engine and transmission which the Tundra has not proven to have.
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