Weren't Bugs pretty good in general, when it came to rust resistance? It's been ages since I've seen an unrestored, daily driver type Bug (although restored/modded ones I do see from time to time), but from what I remember, they seemed to hold up well. The paint might fade or even flake off in places, but they still seemed to hold on. I do remember the running boards would often succumb, but that was about it.
Did you ever have to rebuild the engine on the Bug? I've heard that you usually had to do that every 60-80,000 miles...BUT, it took something like three bolts to remove the whole thing from the car, and you could rebuild it in about 15 minutes for about 5 bucks. Okay, so I'm being facetious here, but they were simple, inexpensive engines that were easy to work on.
There was more maintenance required in those days. Bugs needed to have their valves adjusted every 3,000 miles. No one should even think of changing their oil that often nowadays. :shades:
That was back in the day when even I could mostly keep a car running, foreign or domestic. And few of them lasted beyond 60,000 miles either it seemed. 100,000 miles on the odometer was a big deal.
Weren't Bugs pretty good in general, when it came to rust resistance? It's been ages since I've seen an unrestored, daily driver type Bug (although restored/modded ones I do see from time to time), but from what I remember, they seemed to hold up well. The paint might fade or even flake off in places, but they still seemed to hold on. I do remember the running boards would often succumb, but that was about it.
Did you ever have to rebuild the engine on the Bug? I've heard that you usually had to do that every 60-80,000 miles...BUT, it took something like three bolts to remove the whole thing from the car, and you could rebuild it in about 15 minutes for about 5 bucks. Okay, so I'm being facetious here, but they were simple, inexpensive engines that were easy to work on.
I don't think they had much rust problems, although I'm in Southern California anyway. I learned about working on engines with that car. I did a rebuild at 106K but that lasted until the sale at 235K. You had to keep the valves adjusted, as they were sensitive to breaking due to the air cooling. And you pulled the engine to change the clutch, but that wasn't really that hard if you had a hydraulic jack and a friend.
I remember that in the mid '70s the VWs were being outcompeted by the Japanese imports in the economy segment. At that time Ford and GM were just waking up to these small cars and that is when they came out with the Pinto and Vega. By the '80's there was real competition and the US automakers persuaded the Reagan administration to put voluntary quotas on imported cars. Since the Japanese makes could only (voluntarily) sell X cars due to the quotas, this had two effects:
1 - The Japanese makes (mainly Toyota and Datsun [Nissan[ at that time) started making bigger, upcontented cars so that they would sell for higher prices. This had the effect of broadening the competition for the US makes, which was IMHO a big backfire on the protectionism that the US makes wanted; 2 - They also started building US assembly plants, as the Japanese makes assembled here were not subject to the quotas. Of course this sowed the seeds for where we are today: GM and C almost gone, and Ford clawing back.
"Bob, what you say is true, except for one thing. The union garment jobs began leaving up north in the '50's. Traditional textile cities like Fall River and Lawrence, Mass. or Pawtucket, RI have been struggling for that long. Garment jobs up here have been non existant for about 25-30 years. What is appalling is that these jobs have been leaving the non union south for these countries!!! People who make a more reasonable wage are losing these jobs to people who make pennies.
"........so the fact that you have found them is good, but still not as convenient as going to the store and trying them on..."
True, but how often do you try on a t-shirt or a pair of jeans at a store? Generally, I save that for the dress pants, shirts and suits. I just know that a XL tee or 36/29 jeans and an 8-1/2 wide pair of shoes fit with very little agrivation."
Cooter: I do not have the body of a store mannequin, so I try on almost everything except socks and t-shirts...I have tried on numerous 8-1/2 or 9 shoes that are way too tight or fall off my foot...Johnston & Murphy seem built for skinny feet, almsot can't find Florsheim anymore, and I would never buy Allen Edmonds w/o trying them on...pants???...I am a "little" huskier than I would like so must try on pants...for you slim mannequin bodies, I envy you...
I was under the impression that we started losing garment jobs in the 70s, because my wife's relatives worked in shirt factories in Mississippi in the 70s, which would be about the time union power was rising...I also think it was harder to raise the price of a shirt from, say, $10 to $15, but raising the price of a car was easier because we could justify in our minds the occasional car purchase going up $10 a month, as the car was such a large purchase...kinda like no one complaining that their new luxury Caddy cost $5 grand more, but screaming that the cost of a Big Mac and Fries went up from $4 to $6...no one thinks of dropping $600 on a iPhone, but raise DSL rates $5 monthly and folks go nuts...
Well so what. If China decided not to export the soles for running shoes, New Balance could only sell shoes without soles. Now we all will look silly sporting only uppers of shoes
I think the years have a way of people exaggerating the goodness of things sometimes, as well as exaggerating the badness of things. While no one would say a '74 Vega was a great car (except the 'buff' magazines of the day), I lived in one of the saltiest-road places in the country and I never saw a '74 Vega with holes in two years. Maybe a '71 with holes in the fenders in three...but half of the '74 Vega run had inner fenders, which eliminated the early-Vega rust in tops of fenders. And I'd have noticed.
Likewise, I don't think everything built in this country twenty-five years ago was "terrible quality". But I do think that is the perception now. It's all about perception.
Bill
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Heck, the plant in which my Dad worked for 24 years and my brother, sister, and I worked during summer breaks from college is closing this coming July. NAFTA is to blame for this one, but it's going north of the border to Canada. Lots of old high school friends still work there. I don't know what's going to become of them.
That's right. I wouldn't be fiscally reckless and self-destructive enough to pay that much for a pair of blue jeans. Heck, I used to go to Vanity Fair outlet in Reading, PA to buy Lee jeans for around $15 a pair.
Likewise, I don't think everything built in this country twenty-five years ago was "terrible quality". But I do think that is the perception now. It's all about perception.
No, certainly not everything. But I do think far more lemons were produced back then as a percentage vs. today. I mean my dad had a '73 Ford Grand Torino with a 302 that needed a valve job at 30k miles and was completely rusted out by '77. The Vinyl roof was peeling within 3 years.
He traded that in on a '79 Caprice Classic wagon that was troublesome from day one. I remember it having under 10k miles on it and it continually leaving us stranded when I was a kid.
I know the late 70's and early '80's Ford's were bad. My grandpa was a sales manager at a Ford Dealer and his demo's were routinely in the shop getting repaired.
Back then, my other Grandpa always bought full-size GM cars and he had good luck with all of them. None of them were troublesome until the miles got up there. So, I think it was the smaller vehicles are what people relate to when it comes to bad cars in the 70's and 80's.
I agree with a lot of your observations Marsha. In fact, I thought about them a lot last night. Let me throw this out for consideration. The Internet has introduced the common person to a whole world of options.....literally. Here is my fear. As a society, we have become too "things" driven and we have lost touch with "people". The mom and pop establishments obviously haven't been able to keep up with the Walmart's of the world based on price. Mom and Pop have always provided merchandise at a fair price....but they also made our purchases personal and gave us excellent customer service. They actually cared about our business. They were the neighbors down the street. We go to church with them. They contribute to the tax base in our local communities. I wouldn't classify their way of doing business as "raping" us on price. I would much rather give them my business than some faceless internet site. I'm willing to pay more just to keep my purchases local.
We are all different in our buying preferences and I respect the right of others to disagree. I don't need $300 jeans. I don't need a $75,000 vehicle that will go fast and handle well. I sell GM cars. We are a small dealership. We try our best to compete with the big guys. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. We rarely sell new vehicles over invoice. My customers always get the very best in customer service. That's how I build my client list. I appreciate their business because I know how many other options there are out there now.
I might be completely off base on my thinking. Maybe I'm old school. I appreciate you for listening to my point of view.
They contribute to the tax base in our local communities. I wouldn't classify their way of doing business as "raping" us on price. I would much rather give them my business than some faceless internet site. I'm willing to pay more just to keep my purchases local.
I don't think "raping" is really the right term anyway. Maybe simply inefficient? The big stores like WalMart and so forth sell on such big volume that they can get discounts from the suppliers, as well as strong-arm local governments into giving them tax breaks. As a result, their cost-per-item is lower, so they can sell for a cheaper price.
Plus, my guess is that a lot of Mom-and-Pop stores went out around the time that larger supermarkets came onto the scene. Maybe in the 1940's? 7-Eleven and your typical gas station convenience store has also helped take the place of those old Mom & Pops.
Plus, my guess is that a lot of Mom-and-Pop stores went out around the time that larger supermarkets came onto the scene. Maybe in the 1940's? 7-Eleven and your typical gas station convenience store has also helped take the place of those old Mom & Pops.
A&Ps were the first to really put a hurt on the small mom & pops. Then the Supermarket chains put a hurt on A&P, and so on and so forth.
I think the years have a way of people exaggerating the goodness of things sometimes, as well as exaggerating the badness of things. While no one would say a '74 Vega was a great car (except the 'buff' magazines of the day), I lived in one of the saltiest-road places in the country and I never saw a '74 Vega with holes in two years. Maybe a '71 with holes in the fenders in three...but half of the '74 Vega run had inner fenders, which eliminated the early-Vega rust in tops of fenders. And I'd have noticed.
I agree with you in principle. However, the '74 Vega WAS absolutely the biggest POS I've ever seen. A very nice looking car, and ran well for its time. But there were HOLES at the bottoms of the windshield and rear hatch window within 3 years after my friend's BRAND NEW purchase due to rust. He saved for a year to buy this car, his first car, as an entering college student. This was how GM rewarded him. The rust was common on these cars, and we don't live in a salted area. Combine that with the engines' typical corrosion and destruction by 50-60K miles and I don't know how else you would define POS. And that is not an exaggeration in this case.
Sure, lots of domestic cars need new transmissions, head gaskets, o-rings, O2 sensors, parking brakes, starter cables and wires, fuel pumps, and air conditioners/compressors by the time they reach 60,000 miles. I think that makes them a POS and a Lemon :lemon:
But what about the other intangibles and "little" things that annoy you about a domestic car? What about the fine details that anger you with the lemon like quality? :lemon:
I'm talking about your windshield cracking in half (from center top to center bottom) for no apparent reason when you park in the shade on a very hot day. I'm talking about a rattle trap galore, with rattles coming from the front, the sides, the back, the top, and all around you. Noises, rattles, clunks, and other associated sounds that worsen your driving experience? What about not getting the advertised or specified performance or gas mileage? What about glues and adhesives melting and seeping all over your windshield and back windows due to heat buildup in the trim pieces in sunny CA? What about wind noise seeping into the cabin because trim pieces fit so poorly and don't stay in place like they should.
Keep in mind that most people wouldn't bother trying to fix most of these things once the warranty runs out at 36,000 miles or 3 years, so you'll just have to live with it. Living with it day to day as it gets worse and worse, only to be insulted when you go to trade it in and you get offered 10 Mexican pesos for it, only to find out that is a very FAIR offer for it indeed :sick: :P
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I understand what you're saying about "raping". I was just using Marsha's word. Not only can Walmart get a price break on quantity, they are also powerful enough to force a manufacturer to make a product to their specs. That makes it impossible for someone else to go nose to nose with them. It might look the same...but many times it isn't. Walmart is simply a predatory corporation. They contribute very little to a community. After years of trying to say...."BUY AMERICAN".....they don't even try to disguise that fact anymore.
"Mom and Pop have always provided merchandise at a fair price....but they also made our purchases personal and gave us excellent customer service. They actually cared about our business. They were the neighbors down the street. We go to church with them. They contribute to the tax base in our local communities. I wouldn't classify their way of doing business as "raping" us on price. I would much rather give them my business than some faceless internet site. I'm willing to pay more just to keep my purchases local."
T-bone: (I like like that name, t-bone_rare, would have been a great CB handle back in the 70s)...we probably agree on a fair amount, and I respect your difference of opinion...my forst experience with a big box store was a Home Depot about 50 miles away...my local hardware store M&P (Mom & Pop) sold U-shaped fluorescent bulbs for $16.50 each back in 1992...Home Depot sold them for $5.50...so, I could buy eight bulbs from M&P for $132.00 for 8 bulbs from Home Depot for $44.00, saving me $88.00...now you can argue all day that M&P went to church, paid local taxes, yada, yada, yada, but saving $88.00 (make it $80.00 as I had to pay for gas to get to Home Depot)...certainly seemed to me that M&P were raping me...at the time, their big box competition was an hour away, so they were somewhat insulated, until Lowes moved right into the little town...yes, I realize that HD has greater buying power than M&P, but I think you may miss my point...
By saving $80.00, that gave me the money to take my wife out for dinner, twice, and patronize the local restaurants, ALSO owned by a different M&P who pay into the local tax base and go to church...from my viewpoint, the M&P hardware store was overcharging out the wazoo because they could, and taking my business to HD meant that two restaurants got my business because I didn't spend that money at M&P hardware store...
Everybody misses the point about WalMart, HD and Lowes...yes, they often put local M&P competitors out of business, but local M&P have no "divine right" to exist if someone can undercut them on the identical item...why pay $5 for a Fram oil filter if the same can be bought at WalMart for $2.50...why should I waste the extra $$$ at local store???...and, by big box stores freeing up my cash by charging less, I can still patronize other stores that would have lost my business if I spent it all on those light bulbs...
Disregarding the "China factor" for a moment with WalMart, many folks now have some disposable income because they buy stuff at WalMart for a cheaper price...that extra money may be the tipping point between a vacation or not...if they can now afford a vacation, think of the $$$ now spent at resorts all because they didn't shop at M&P stores...it is NOT a zero sum game...money spent on overpriced products at M&P's hardware store means no money for local restaurants, so if the hardware store goes under because of big box pricing, that is simply non-survival of the non-fittest...but I have extra money in my pocket because of HD/WM/Lowes or whatever the store is...
If you want to pay 3 times the price for those bulbs, feel free to do so...but I think the rest of us would rather save money so we can spend it on something else we like...so, yes, I feel that M&P has been raping us for years...charging three times the price for a bulb, what would YOU call it???... :confuse: :P
Mom and Pop have always provided merchandise at a fair price....
Back in the good old Mom and Pop days, if you purchased something and it was defective, it was a huge hassle returning it. Forget returning it if your wife had just happened to buy the same item that morning or if you simply changed your mind a day later.
One of these days maybe we'll be able to sit around and be nostalgic about the good old car dealer days and the great dealership experience we enjoyed.
LOLOL......Marsha, I had forgotten all about the CB radio days. My handle back then was West Virginia Wallbanger. People usually think of steaks when they see my name. It was actually the name of a band I played in when I was younger. We played big band jazz. We had 5 trombone players, a piano player, upright bass and drummer. T Bones Rare. We had a great time and drank a GREAT amount of beer!! I hope your weekend is great!
In the end, it's all about balance. My Mom and Dad had a stationary luncheonette in the 60's that was put out of business by the box retailers. No resentment whatsoever, they just moved on and they survived.
Like working for GM and C, you are selling their products but there may come a time when the global competition unseats GM and C because they will absorb GM and C. Their old business model just does not keep up and change is not fast enough. Change hurts if you let it but if you go with the flow there will always opportunities that will boggle your mind with abundance as long as fear does not keep you riveted to the status quo.
When I was a little kid my dad had a grocery store. You could get all you needed there to feed a family. Even ground his own meat and such. Always either had a butcher there or was the butcher. A small 7-11 is larger than that store was.
At the time there was one really big store nearby and a small (but much bigger than dad's place) A&P. By the time he moved on to the next thing there were probably four pretty substantial sized stores to compete with. Since then those have expanded to cavernous size and more have been built. Just the way life goes.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
- Blacksmiths. They used to be everywhere. - Slide rule manufacturers. I can't find them anymore. - Makers of candy cigarettes. I'll bet those were made in the USA! - Turntables. I have a BIC 960 in the garage that doesn't work very well any more. It was made in the USA. I don't want to buy one from Japan or China. - Aerospace workers. We used to have a lot more of them in Southern California. We need them again. Build some bombers! - Soda shops. What's a teenager to do. The "National Soda Shop Act". $10billion to build one for every 10,000 people, across the USA. :shades:
You can add mechanical cash register technicians. During the 70's a lot of those guys were displaced when NCR and the likes went digital and incorporated scanners. My dad was a grocery store manager in the late 70's and he told me stories about how the old timers couldn't or wouldn't learn to work on the new computer based cash registers, so many ended up unemployed/retired if they had enough time and money saved.
Yes, progress has left many behind. Should we be subsidizing CRT TV and VCR repair shops too?
I almost forgot....LOLOL.....Marsha, I have trouble with the term" unskilled labor". As most of you know, I sell cars. Am I unskilled? We used to have "mechanics" back in the shop. They are now "technicians". Are they unskilled? I suppose if you went to an automobile factory you might find a guy with a wrench that tightens things down. Most of them have very specific duties. I'm not sure that makes them unskilled.
Case in point, the TV show that's been on where the CEO's of corporations go undercover and assume positions within their companies. Most of those positions would probably be classified as "unskilled". For the most part, the CEO's have a helluva time doing the job that they have outlined for others to do. It's pretty much an eye opener for the executives.
Let me finish with this thought. All of us have different skill sets. All of our jobs are important working within the team framework. I can't fix a car in the shop....but the technicians have no idea how to sell a car. In order for the dealership to prosper, we all have to do our jobs well. Not meaning to be contrary. Just a thought.
Nope, you make what you EARN. The dealer doesn't guarantee you $30/hr if you don't sell anything all week.
They are now "technicians". Are they unskilled? I suppose if you went to an automobile factory you might find a guy with a wrench that tightens things down. Most of them have very specific duties. I'm not sure that makes them unskilled.
And I'm sure everyone at the dealer is paid according to the value of the job and quantity of people with those skills in the labor pool. The car hops are going to be paid much less than a master mechanic or the top salesmen of the month.
My definition of unskilled is more based on marketability. Say you are the only person in the plant that knows how to keep machine "A" producing parts at max efficiency. What happens when machine A is obsolete and the only thing you know how to do or want to do is run machine A? You might of had a skill that was in huge demand for as many years as machine A being used and you were paid top dollar (maybe more than your peers running different machines). Now, no one uses machine A and your skill is no longer in demand, and no company is going to pay you top dollar anymore.
Most of those positions would probably be classified as "unskilled". For the most part, the CEO's have a helluva time doing the job that they have outlined for others to do. It's pretty much an eye opener for the executives.
That is certainly true, but the difference is the CEO can put an add in the paper and find 100's of people that can be trained in a short amount of time to perform many of those jobs. Many companies do have CEO's that at one time was an entry level employee, sometimes the cream does rise to the top.
I doubt many engineers would be overly productive on a GM assembly line, but how many on the assembly line can perform the tasks required of the engineer. If GM puts an add in the paper for labor on the assembly line and at the same time places an add for a mechanical engineer, which will bring in more resumes/applications?
>classified as "unskilled". For the most part, the CEO's have a helluva time doing the job that they have outlined for others to do. It's pretty much an eye opener for the executives.
It shows that "skill" is not just what someone of the "educated class" believes is a skill needed for a job. People learn skills as they work and become very good at their job. Some of those executives were downright foolish in their attempts to do real work.
The people who criticize "lugnut tighteners" using a power tool on a high rate assembly line as unskilled might need to reconsider. If they feel that some were overpaid greatly in past UAW positives, they might need to redefine that as somewhat overpaid.
It is a two way street. The guy tightening lug nuts only has to worry about showing up on time and doing his specific job. Many in management have to worry about running a plant or division well enough to meet key performance indicators. They get yelled at by customers, employees, higher level execs, get paid salary and may have to spend 80 hours a week on the job while having their bonus dangled in front of their nose. Not many down on the shop floor are capable or willing to do that kind of work either.
".....Please tell me you didn't get the ones with the velcro straps! "
No, no velcro. Although, I don't know why I am married. I showed up for my first date w/ my (now) wife wearing a pair of sears sneakers w/ velcro straps. Every now and then she still rags on me for that.
".....I was under the impression that we started losing garment jobs in the 70s, because my wife's relatives worked in shirt factories in Mississippi in the 70s, which would be about the time union power was rising..."
Well, those "Mississippi" jobs came from up north. Was your wife's relatives union? Here is a nice history of Fall River Mass. from a textile perspective:
"The people who criticize "lugnut tighteners" using a power tool on a high rate assembly line as unskilled might need to reconsider."
I suppose I am referring to the amount of training to do the job, and, no, that is not a definition cast in stone...the technicians (mechanics?) who work on cars in repair shops are certified to diagnose and fix numerous problems on a vehicle...the person who sells vehicles must know numerous specs on numerous vehicles, and also must be skilled in dealing with people and finance and price negotiation...now, let's compare the Honda worker with the UAW worker...the UAW worker will tighten lug nuts only, and will go on strike if he is asked to install windshields, besides, "that ain't in my contract"...the Honda worker, OTOH, will install dashboards this week, engines next week, jump over to lug nuts for a day, and then go work in tire mounting, as he is cross-trained to do whatever they may need him to do...I consider the Honda worker far more skilled than the UAW worker, who sole goal in life in to be appointed to the Jobs Bank, where he is paid a full salary plus benefits to sit, watch TV and eat donuts, then go home and teach his children that he is holding his UAW spot open for them when he retires from years of hard work donut-eating...
There was a poster named rocky, a VERY pro-union, UAW-or-die person, who frequently posted about those "toothless, ignorant southern rednecks" who migrated north looking for factory jobs...what he forgot was that it was just those workers who ended up working at the auto plants assembling cars...so, I have it on good authority (from him) that if these ignorant southerner can be trained to tighten lugnuts, I find it difficult to call it "skilled labor"...plus, after living in Detroit for 10 years, I can ASSURE you that the average level of intelligence up there ain't exactly tipping the "genius" range, if you catch my drift...
My father was also a victim of the changes in business...he ran an auto parts store with a machine shop...we had a large store called Caldor's, a Kmart type store in its day...when Caldor sold Stanley hammers for $7 (this was the 1960s and 70s, mind you) lower than the local hardware store (does the phrase Mom & Pop ring a bell???) who sold it for $10, my father was thrilled, because the $3 savings would fill up his gas tank, effectively for free...so, he shopped at Caldor's...one day, Caldor's started selling GM-Delco points and condensers (are you old enough to know what they are?) and distributor caps and rotors, blister-packed for pegboard retail sales, and they sold them about 20% lower than my Dad sold them...he was FURIOUS...how was he supposed to make a living when these "big box" stores were undercutting his prices on fast moving, high profit items???...even at that age (16, maybe 17), I remember quietly asking Dad why was it OK for him to buy the hammer at Caldor and save money, but not OK for Caldor to compete with him???...he just quietly realized, with much more business perception than I had, that business was changing...he didn't know WHAT was ahead, but he knew that things were starting to change from the last 20-plus years in retail...in essence, he saw handwriting on the wall, but not enough handwriting was "written" yet to know what was coming down the pike...almost like animals sensing a tsunami or earthquake, he knew something was different, but didn't know how much...when his store closed in 1986, he was being undercut in price from other auto parts competitors that sold parts cheaper, and also were not bound by Teamsters labor contracts...the other places paid labor 1/3 less due to no union...change had come...
cooter: when I married into the family, they talked about the factory a little...the main thing I learned was that they WERE trying to unionize the factory, but the relative would "no part of no union"...I do not know if any part of the factory was unionized, and I believe that Mississippi is a right-to-work state, but if anyone knows more about that, please chime in...
".....Everybody misses the point about WalMart, HD and Lowes...yes, they often put local M&P competitors out of business, but local M&P have no "divine right" to exist if someone can undercut them on the identical item...why pay $5 for a Fram oil filter if the same can be bought at WalMart for $2.50..."
I agree, no company has a divine right to exist. I do think that those prices nowadays do overstate it a bit. We have a company here in RI called Benny's. Far from a M&P, as there are about 20-30 locations in RI, SE Mass, and Eastern Ct., but just the type of company we have seen fold when WalMart first entered this area. That $2.50 Fram filter would be $2.99 at most at Benny's. More? Yes. But hardly worth my time to go the extra 12 miles round trip to Wally World.
What I think whips me up more about them is how they strongarm other companies that mfr. the products they sell. This is why you CAN'T disregard the "China factor". One of the reasons Levi's are made overseas is because WalMart wouldn't put them on their shelves unless Levi's could sell them to Wally for Wally's price. Levi's didn't have the cache' anymore to tell WalMart to shove it. In the same respect, not even WalMart has the cache' to tell Sony or Nintendo or Microsoft to sell them video game consoles at a price that would undercut other stores by say, $50. If Sony says the PS3 retails for $299, EVERYBODY sells it for that, or they just don't sell it.
You are right that it is crazy to spend 3 times more for light bulbs, and that it isn't a zero sum game. Here is a study done on the economic impact of "buying locally"
I think unskilled means how long it would take to learn a job. How much expertise is needed? If somebody walked in off the street, how long would it take for them to become competent at the job?:
- car salesman: a few months? - auto mechanic: six months? more? - lug nut tightener: a day or two? - floor sweeper: a day or two? - brain surgeon: 10 years? - airline pilot: 4 years?
Well stated cooter. How often do the prices stay as low as they do? Walmart sells certain items below it's competitor's costs just long enough to force them to close their doors. When they're the only game in town, the prices not only go back to reasonable and customary.....they raise them even more!! Very few people will compare the prices at Walmart to other establishments.
"That $2.50 Fram filter would be $2.99 at most at Benny's. More? Yes. But hardly worth my time to go the extra 12 miles round trip to Wally World.
One of the reasons Levi's are made overseas is because WalMart wouldn't put them on their shelves unless Levi's could sell them to Wally for Wally's price. Levi's didn't have the cache' anymore to tell WalMart to shove it....bold italic emphasis from marsha7...
Cooter: I think I also see another side to what you say...Levi's didn't have the cache...why didn't Levis simply sell their goods elsewhere, made in America, at a slightly higher/much higher price???...BECAUSE THEY WANTED ACCESSS TO WALMART'S HUGE MARKET...Levis simply made a business decision that went against what you wished they would do...why couldn't Levis tolerate a smaller market share and make their goods with US labor???...because they WANTED the Walmart market...you agreed with me that no copany has a divine right to sell its goods, and does that not apply to Levi as well???...of course in a perfect world it would be nice for Levi to be made in America, but the marketing world changed, just like it did for my father years before anyone outside of Bentonville ever heard of WalMart...
Also, it would not be worth it to go to Wally for saving 50 cents on the Fram filter, but the example I told you about the bulbs was true, almost to the penny...do you think that was the ONLY item that M&P hardware was price gouging me???...when some gas stations were selling gas for $6/gallon here in Atlanta a few years ago, some folks wanted a federal fine for price gouging...yet you defend M&P for selling me the bulbs for THREE TIMES the price of Home Depot!!!...wouldn't YOU be ECSTATIC that some competition finally came to town even tho it was an hour away???...even payiong for gas I saved about $80 on the sale...and if Wally sold them for $4 I would have gone there, helping to put both M&P and HD out of business...I simply fail to see why the simple goal shouldn't be the cheapest selling price to the public...do you want to pay $2000 more for a car from your local dealer, or will you travel 50 miles to save $2000???...maybe $2K is mere pocket change to you, but I don't mind keeping 2 grand in my pocket, buying the same product at either place...for 50 cents, I will buy the Fram from a local M&P parts store, but if 4 Michelin tires at Wally are $300, and $450 from an M&P tire specialty store, where are you going???
This whole Edmunds concept is founded on getting the lowest price by revealing what dealers pay at invoice...that concept, buying the most car for the least money, is not different than buying the most light bulbs for the least money, the ONLY difference is that the dollar value is different...do you lament Edmunds publishing invoice prices???...if there was an "Edmunds" for hardware invoice prices would you participate, or would you boycott it and find fault with those who went to the "Wally Hardware Store" because they sold nuts and bolts cheaper???
I read that article about walmart and local business...they seem to miss the points that really matter...
1. Wages are depressed...so what???...why should shelf stockers (a "craft" I am sure can be taught in less than a day) get $20/hour plus benefits...Wally needs mostly unskilled labor, and, except for the UAW, unskilled labor does not demand high wages because it is...unskilled...go to school, learn a trade, and make more money...no one EVER said that WalMart was a career for everyone...
2. Local stores may go under...local stores, IMO, HAVE been raping us for years, and to have any factor that can lower prices, like volume buying, helps not only me, but EVERY customer that does not mind saving money...let the local join a coop like Ace Hardware, where the store is owned by M&P, but they piggy-back onto Ace and get the volume discounts...they sell only a few pennies above Wally and HD and I DO shop M&P when they are competitive...
3. Every analysis of Big Box assumes that everything is static and the only different element is the Big Box store, by economics is dynamic...I still maintain my simple example...if I had to buy bulbs at M&P, spending $80 more, I would not have had the money to take my wife out to 2 or 3 decent restaurant meals (in the 1990s, a decent meal for two could be had for $20-25)...why don't you talk to the three local M&P restauranteurs and ask if they objected to my patronizing THEM with the extra money in my pocket???...so, maybe the M&P hardware store suffered, but three restaurants had my wife and I as customers, and they would NOT have seen us if I bought the bulbs at M&P hardware, as I would not have the available money to do so...that is a concept that NO article or economist EVER takes into consideration when they criticize big box stores, and that is why I consider those writers more biased than the average politican, as their agenda is to protect M&P at all costs, usually for nostalgic purposes only, and those costs will come out of MY POCKET...
When I did real estate closings in the late 1990s, I was paid about $600 per closing...as time went on, I began to lose that business, as there were attorneys willing to do those closings for $300...for the work and responsibility involved, $300 was simply not worth it...where were you trying to protect my higher fee???...why didn't you protest that for someone to undercut my fee was heresy???...of course not...I simply saw the same thing that I saw with my father, that someone was willing to do the same thing for less, and I had no choice but to get out of the business and learn a new area of law...was it painful???...yes, I was comforatble doing closings at $600...but did the consumer deserve to chance to save money???...absolutely...the market changed, and I had to change with it...
So does Mom & Pop, so do small towns when wally comes in, and folks need to understand that wally is not there to pay $15/hour plus benefits to someone who stocks corn flakes on the shelf and then moves 2 aisles down and stocks blankets on that shelf...Walmart is for part-time money, and anything that lowers their overhead to lower my price is OK with me...don't force wally to pay more for labor, how about telling the folks who work there that dropping out of grade school was not too intelligent, and thatlearning a skill other than shelf stocking just might pay a little more...make the PEOPLE change their mindset, don't punish Walmart for being what it has always been, part-time income for those with no skills...
>..now, let's compare the Honda worker with the UAW worker...the UAW worker will tighten lug nuts only, and will go on strike if he is asked to install windshields, besides, "that ain't in my contract"...the Honda worker, OTOH, will install dashboards this week, engines next week, jump over to lug nuts for a day, and then go work in tire mounting, as he is cross-trained to do whatever they may need him to do...
Your argument is predicated on the idea that a UAW worker would not accept a different work assignment and would instead say, "That's not my job."
I don't believe that's true. UAW has been guilty of over negotiating for pricy rates for jobs.
I have no love for the UAW or Obama because they are the reason the Moraine plant closed: in the negotiations with Obama's people the UAW did not want to preserve the work here in Dayton because it is IUE. Therefore we have almost 25% job loss over a few years in this area. Nice to maintain jobs elsewhere, but the people assembling the SUVs here probably were doing a better than average job compared to UAW folks.
>This is why you CAN'T disregard the "China factor". One of the reasons Levi's are made overseas is because WalMart wouldn't put them on their shelves unless Levi's could sell them to Wally for Wally's price.
The story is Walmart showed the companies how to move the work to China because they had "turnkey" operations ready to go to replicate the production in the US for the companies. I understand that's what happened to Rubbermade, a Hudson, Ohio, company with fine reputation for childrens products, swings, playhouses, etc. They went through some kind of saga over the Walmart Syndrome and ended up with Newell as part owner and bye bye quality and jobs.
".....???...BECAUSE THEY WANTED ACCESSS TO WALMART'S HUGE MARKET...Levis simply made a business decision that went against what you wished they would do...why couldn't Levis tolerate a smaller market share and make their goods with US labor???...because they WANTED the Walmart market.."
Wanted, or needed?? I don't think there would be a Levi Strauss,& Co. as we know it if they decided to be high and almighty and do w/o WalMart. I doubt they could afford the loss in market share if WalMart pulled them off the shelves for not being a "bargain" in the Walton family's eyes.
".......I simply fail to see why the simple goal shouldn't be the cheapest selling price to the public..." I'll add a word....possible.....
Using that argument, the US will never be able to compete, because there are too many other countries that can do it cheaper. We should be looking for the cheapest REASONABLE selling price, considering other things, such as quality, customer service, etc. Would I not drive the extra 50 miles to save the $2000 on a car, of course I would. Provided, it's the exact same car. Those light bulbs, I assume, were the exact same bulb. But, say they weren't. If you bought the HD brand and M&P were selling Sylvania's, and the HD bulbs burned out after a year, but the Sylvania's lasted over 2, at some point you are going to get sick and tired of changing those bulbs so frequently, and having to trudge the extra miles to get it. But by the time you figure it out, M&P will be out of business.
I have learned from experience that Benjamin Moore makes a great paint. It's expensive, but good. I USED to buy Behr (HD paint). BM's quality is FAR superior to Behr (IMO). I buy from a M&P store. I needed a quart of white for some trim. I paid $17.50 for it. A week later, my wife decided she wanted a different color for the vanity, and cabinet over the toilet. We were at the local Ace Hardware (a national chain), they sell Benjamin Moore, she picked out a color, and off we went. $19.95. I get home, it's the same exact can and everything as the can of white at the M&P. $2.45 "MOORE"
"........make the PEOPLE change their mindset, don't punish Walmart for being what it has always been, part-time income for those with no skills... "
On this we can agree. I personally think for the US to keep ahead of other countries, we need to upgrade our education system. Get the schedule out of the agrarian age and put it in the space age. I think it's entirely possible that by the time our grandkids graduate HS (I'm 42 w/ 2 teens, BTW) they will need to be ast LEAST as educated as our grandparents were (or would've been if they went to college) with a master's degree 50 years ago. They should be able to go out there with that hypothetical HS diploma 30-40 years from now and be intellegent enough to hold a full time job that will put food on the table, or be able to go to college and get a degree that will be meaningful and lasting. Those that want to drop out get what they deserve.
I, too, don't think WalMart should be punnished for being pt work w/pt pay. But they SHOULD be punnished for hiring people who would be ruthless enough to force someone to work off the clock with a threat of firing. I DO think it's wrong for them to strongarm American mfrs. into doing something they don't want to (move work overseas) just so they keep access to the Wally World. Who are they to "dictate" what they will pay for a product?? Isn't that what the so-called free market is for??? (Unless it isn't really free)
".....1. Wages are depressed...so what???...why should shelf stockers (a "craft" I am sure can be taught in less than a day) get $20/hour plus benefits...Wally needs mostly unskilled labor, and, except for the UAW, unskilled labor does not demand high wages because it is...unskilled...go to school, learn a trade, and make more money...no one EVER said that WalMart was a career for everyone..."
I don't think I'd ever agree to paying them that kind of money. Employees at M&P don't get that, either. But I DO think that there is a need for some sort of oversight on how these large companies strongarm their employees. Look at Tyson foods:
Now, I read this week that Tyson has agreed to pay their employees for that time. It's things like this that annoy me. I doubt it has any effect on what we pay for Tyson's products.
> Benjamin Moore makes a great paint. It's expensive, but good. I USED to buy Behr (HD paint). BM's quality is FAR superior to Behr (IMO). I buy from a M&P store.
I learned long ago about quality paints. I have bought a lot from a Mom and Pop in a small town hardware store which has Martin Senour paint. Love it. They even had the original color in basement from Williamsburg collection of colors in the factory mixed color instead of having to mix it--because they bought up stock from some other small stores which went out of business. So we got a great match for original paint on our storage barn.
The knowledge that the adult salespeople/owners had about the various paints was amazing. If it cost $5 gallon more than a box store somewhere might be selling the same Martin Senour or the same paint with a different label, it was worth it for the information. I believe the company is now owned by Valspar which owns lots of other brands.
uplander: It depends on how you define small town...I was born in Yonkers about 1/4 miles from the New York City borderline...if Yonkers had a 1/4 million people to NYC's 7 million, you "could" call Yonkers a small town...just kidding...no, I was born just outside NYC, lived there for 18 years, moved to Atlanta for college (under 1 million in 1971), moved to Detroit 1980-1990, moved back to Atlanta in 1990, living in a small rural town (pop 3500, county pop 14,500) 60 miles from Atlanta...fell in love with small towns, where the rest of my urbanized family cannot understand the peacefulness of hearing ducks quack and cows moo when the evening is quiet...
imidaz: when I dealt with the UAW folks, they would talk about striking if their position was changed...what I witnessed amazed me...to assume UAW workers have any semblance of basic intelligence is simply fantasy...the number of them that act like the mentally deranged is remarkable...they can, and often are, clsoe to sub-human in their thought processes...10 years was enough for me...
cooter: "Wanted, or needed?? I don't think there would be a Levi Strauss,& Co. as we know it if they decided to be high and almighty and do w/o WalMart"...I will see your point, but the choice was still up to Levi-Strauss...also, the bulbs were the same brand or equivalent (Sylvania, GE, etc), but a good point to raise...ANY employer who does not pay employees for time worked should pay the penalty, I will vote against WM, Tyson or anyone else if I am on the jury...
"I DO think it's wrong for them to strongarm American mfrs. into doing something they don't want to (move work overseas) just so they keep access to the Wally World. Who are they to "dictate" what they will pay for a product??"...I see nothing wrong with that...you call it strong-arming, I call it tough business...WalMart says they want to sell denim jackets for $19.99...Levi, made in America, must sell for $29.99...Levi has a simple choice, either move manufacturing to meet WM's price, or tell WM to go to H*ll...they chose to move...
Who are they to "dictate" what they will pay???...they are the owners of the business and the building and they can dictate anything they want that is legal...after all, didn't GM dictate the price they would pay for auto components???...didn't they get suppliers hooked on GM as a major customer, and then, once hooked, GM demanded they lower their prices and they would because they didn't want to lose GM as the customer, but they could have told GM to join WM in H*ll...
cooter, all it comes down to is contract negotiation...you want to sell your car to me for $10K...I am only willing to pay a measly $3K...most folks would say to split the difference and settle at $6,500...problem is, I am unwilling to pay more than $3K...now YOU have a choice...since I am the only buyer to contact you in the last 3 months (I make up my own stories, you know), you can sell to me for $3K or keep the car...but you really need some money to pay for a root canal, so you sell to me for $3K...was that fair???...yes, because you could have walked away...did you get a fair price???...if you agreed to sell the car to me, yes, you got a fair price...did you get the best price???...no, but you could have waited another 3 months for another buyer, but your needed root canal would also have to wait...
Levi needed the root canal, so they sold their product as conditions were dictated to them...they ALWAYS had the right to walk away and just sell to Western Wear stores...I might have respected them more if they did just that...
Also remember, I am amazed at the number of people who actually believe that two parties MUST compromise "fairly" and reach an agreement...there is no earthly reason to believe that...just like when the dealer will sell the car for $20,500 and the buyer won't go higher than $20,400...the buyer looks at the dealer and says "you will let me walk for a measly $100???"...and the dealer responds, "and you will turn down this car for a measly $100???"...and they part company because the $100 to the dealer was as important as the $100 to the buyer...
Levi could have walked, but they caved...it is as simple as that...who knows, if they stayed in America and sold at the higher price at Western stores and the Internet store "American Products", maybe they could have done quite well without Walmart, but we will never know...
Don't blame Walmart for tough negotiating, blame Levi for being greedy for refusing to live with a lower volume with better quality and a higher price...
Using that argument, the US will never be able to compete, because there are too many other countries that can do it cheaper. We should be looking for the cheapest REASONABLE selling price, considering other things, such as quality, customer service, etc.
Well no offense, but who is to define REASONABLE? Is it what unskilled workers in the world's richest country WANT it to be? That's sort of funny. This is a natural progression. Kind of like saying you don't want to die. It happens and is part of the cycle. Witch doctors - gone. Blacksmiths - gone. Slide rule makers - gone. VCRs - going fast. You want to fly all over the world on vacation? Boeing should make planes in the USA to sell all over the world, adding US jobs? But the ability to transport goods all over the world should NOT give the others the ability to send goods here? Sort of have your cake and eat it, too?
On this we can agree. I personally think for the US to keep ahead of other countries, we need to upgrade our education system. Get the schedule out of the agrarian age and put it in the space age. I think it's entirely possible that by the time our grandkids graduate HS (I'm 42 w/ 2 teens, BTW) they will need to be ast LEAST as educated as our grandparents were (or would've been if they went to college) with a master's degree 50 years ago. They should be able to go out there with that hypothetical HS diploma 30-40 years from now and be intellegent enough to hold a full time job that will put food on the table, or be able to go to college and get a degree that will be meaningful and lasting. Those that want to drop out get what they deserve.
I agree with that. IMHO the problem is that with the unions stifling any creativity in the public schools, we are screwed unless we can break that. We can't afford to be inflexible on education if we want to stay ahead. Funny how the teachers' unions oppose merit-based pay because "testing measures are too flawed". Never mind that they expect their kids to be evaluated with tests. What a joke.
??"...I see nothing wrong with that...you call it strong-arming, I call it tough business...WalMart says they want to sell denim jackets for $19.99...Levi, made in America, must sell for $29.99...
I don't think I've bought a denim jacket since maybe 1991 or 1992, and it was Guess. I think I paid 20 bucks for it because it was out-of-season, and I got an employee discount for it at the department store where I worked. It was something like a $95 jacket, new! I do remember buying a Levi's denim jacket back in 11th or 12th grade, which would put it around 1987. Way back then, that sucker was 50 bucks! It lasted, though. Eventually, the elbows tore through, and I cut off the sleeves and used it as a vest. I think I still have the thing, although it's been awhile since I've worn it.
I wonder if a $19.99 or $29.99 Levi's jacket would last as long? If they're selling them nowadays for 40-60% of what they did 23 years ago, I wonder if in addition to labor, they might have cut corners somewhere?
How did you like the Employment status released Friday 6/4/10???? 41,000 private industry jobs created, 390,000 govt jobs added whoopee!!!! census takers, temp labor..The stock market loved the "Good News"..The Bears took over and sifted thru the BS..It was another great "Shorting Session". Love that feeling when the S&P sinks, I go to the bank... The funny part is that the "White House" thought it was a great economic recovery report..Kinda reminds me of the early $5 billion loan payback that GM made some 45 days ago by using a different "Credit Card".
With Ron Bloom running our 2 Auto companies and conspiring with the bozos on Capital Hill, we are in "deep abyss" of misinformation..
Remember Senator J McCarthy back a few decades ago, court trials involving certain activities that were deemed not in the best interest of our American way of life..
I came across a good book, just hitting the best seller's lists titled "Manchurian President"..It all sounds pretty feasible to me, but then again, being born in 1933, I have witnessed the "Greatness of America", when 100% of the cars produced were "homespun", in fact, we used to produce everything we consumed, bought or used..
You know, Ford is looking better every day, and as they used to say "chicken in every pot and a Ford in every garage"..or something like that???
I emailed Ford asking about the 113 top end of the new V-6 Mustang w/performance pkg, and what fix is available to allow a higher top end..a different chip or what ever!!! could use a V-8 will probably be the answer..
The July issue of "Motor Trend" arrived yesterday and the Hyundai fans should be excited about the rating of the Genesis Coupe 3.8, only costs $6k more that the Mustang V-6 w/performance pkg..for the extra dough one could have a V-8 and cream the Korean.. Well, performance wise the V-6 Stang does very well.
Also the Hyundai Genesis Sedan 3.8 comes up 1st place in the $40K sedans as shown in the July issue of Car and Driver..
I'd be willing to wager a lot of money that the older products were more durable. IMO many things today are intentionally made to have shorter lifespans to keep demand high.
When I was in 6th grade - this would be back in 1988, I was able to con my mother into buying me a fleece lined Levis jacket, which cost something like $80 back then. I wore it only for a few years as I slightly outgrew it, but I am pretty sure it is still hanging in a closet, it held up perfectly for the period of hard use I gave it. I wonder what those cost now and where they are made. About 2 years ago I did buy a USA made leather jacket...it cost a fortune, but the build quality is much better than any Chinese made department store stuff I have seen.
".....Funny how the teachers' unions oppose merit-based pay because "testing measures are too flawed". Never mind that they expect their kids to be evaluated with tests. What a joke. "
I won't argue that they won't protest longer days and school years unless they get paid more, but testing is an arbitrary thing. The LAST thing I'd want to see is students being taught to pass a test as opposed to the material the test covers. I think we do see this.
The biggest problem I see with public education right now is way too many people pulling in way too many directions, and nothing ends up getting done. I think that there should be equal responsibility placed on the student, parents, and teachers for the student's education.
Years ago, denim was almost indestructible...I would not know about it now, but as soom as I trim some pounds, I want to buy a denim jacket, just like Levi's made back then...
Does ANYBODY make them in America anymore???...I will be happy NOT to go to Walmart and spend my money on something that will last 10 years...no frills, no fancy crap on it, just a plain denim jacket with buttons on front and pockets...
Comments
Did you ever have to rebuild the engine on the Bug? I've heard that you usually had to do that every 60-80,000 miles...BUT, it took something like three bolts to remove the whole thing from the car, and you could rebuild it in about 15 minutes for about 5 bucks. Okay, so I'm being facetious here, but they were simple, inexpensive engines that were easy to work on.
That was back in the day when even I could mostly keep a car running, foreign or domestic. And few of them lasted beyond 60,000 miles either it seemed. 100,000 miles on the odometer was a big deal.
Did you ever have to rebuild the engine on the Bug? I've heard that you usually had to do that every 60-80,000 miles...BUT, it took something like three bolts to remove the whole thing from the car, and you could rebuild it in about 15 minutes for about 5 bucks. Okay, so I'm being facetious here, but they were simple, inexpensive engines that were easy to work on.
I don't think they had much rust problems, although I'm in Southern California anyway. I learned about working on engines with that car. I did a rebuild at 106K but that lasted until the sale at 235K. You had to keep the valves adjusted, as they were sensitive to breaking due to the air cooling. And you pulled the engine to change the clutch, but that wasn't really that hard if you had a hydraulic jack and a friend.
I remember that in the mid '70s the VWs were being outcompeted by the Japanese imports in the economy segment. At that time Ford and GM were just waking up to these small cars and that is when they came out with the Pinto and Vega. By the '80's there was real competition and the US automakers persuaded the Reagan administration to put voluntary quotas on imported cars. Since the Japanese makes could only (voluntarily) sell X cars due to the quotas, this had two effects:
1 - The Japanese makes (mainly Toyota and Datsun [Nissan[ at that time) started making bigger, upcontented cars so that they would sell for higher prices. This had the effect of broadening the competition for the US makes, which was IMHO a big backfire on the protectionism that the US makes wanted;
2 - They also started building US assembly plants, as the Japanese makes assembled here were not subject to the quotas. Of course this sowed the seeds for where we are today: GM and C almost gone, and Ford clawing back.
"........so the fact that you have found them is good, but still not as convenient as going to the store and trying them on..."
True, but how often do you try on a t-shirt or a pair of jeans at a store? Generally, I save that for the dress pants, shirts and suits. I just know that a XL tee or 36/29 jeans and an 8-1/2 wide pair of shoes fit with very little agrivation."
Cooter: I do not have the body of a store mannequin, so I try on almost everything except socks and t-shirts...I have tried on numerous 8-1/2 or 9 shoes that are way too tight or fall off my foot...Johnston & Murphy seem built for skinny feet, almsot can't find Florsheim anymore, and I would never buy Allen Edmonds w/o trying them on...pants???...I am a "little" huskier than I would like so must try on pants...for you slim mannequin bodies, I envy you...
I was under the impression that we started losing garment jobs in the 70s, because my wife's relatives worked in shirt factories in Mississippi in the 70s, which would be about the time union power was rising...I also think it was harder to raise the price of a shirt from, say, $10 to $15, but raising the price of a car was easier because we could justify in our minds the occasional car purchase going up $10 a month, as the car was such a large purchase...kinda like no one complaining that their new luxury Caddy cost $5 grand more, but screaming that the cost of a Big Mac and Fries went up from $4 to $6...no one thinks of dropping $600 on a iPhone, but raise DSL rates $5 monthly and folks go nuts...
Likewise, I don't think everything built in this country twenty-five years ago was "terrible quality". But I do think that is the perception now. It's all about perception.
Bill
No, certainly not everything. But I do think far more lemons were produced back then as a percentage vs. today. I mean my dad had a '73 Ford Grand Torino with a 302 that needed a valve job at 30k miles and was completely rusted out by '77. The Vinyl roof was peeling within 3 years.
He traded that in on a '79 Caprice Classic wagon that was troublesome from day one. I remember it having under 10k miles on it and it continually leaving us stranded when I was a kid.
I know the late 70's and early '80's Ford's were bad. My grandpa was a sales manager at a Ford Dealer and his demo's were routinely in the shop getting repaired.
Back then, my other Grandpa always bought full-size GM cars and he had good luck with all of them. None of them were troublesome until the miles got up there. So, I think it was the smaller vehicles are what people relate to when it comes to bad cars in the 70's and 80's.
We are all different in our buying preferences and I respect the right of others to disagree. I don't need $300 jeans. I don't need a $75,000 vehicle that will go fast and handle well. I sell GM cars. We are a small dealership. We try our best to compete with the big guys. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose. We rarely sell new vehicles over invoice. My customers always get the very best in customer service. That's how I build my client list. I appreciate their business because I know how many other options there are out there now.
I might be completely off base on my thinking. Maybe I'm old school. I appreciate you for listening to my point of view.
I don't think "raping" is really the right term anyway. Maybe simply inefficient? The big stores like WalMart and so forth sell on such big volume that they can get discounts from the suppliers, as well as strong-arm local governments into giving them tax breaks. As a result, their cost-per-item is lower, so they can sell for a cheaper price.
Plus, my guess is that a lot of Mom-and-Pop stores went out around the time that larger supermarkets came onto the scene. Maybe in the 1940's? 7-Eleven and your typical gas station convenience store has also helped take the place of those old Mom & Pops.
A&Ps were the first to really put a hurt on the small mom & pops. Then the Supermarket chains put a hurt on A&P, and so on and so forth.
I agree with you in principle. However, the '74 Vega WAS absolutely the biggest POS I've ever seen. A very nice looking car, and ran well for its time. But there were HOLES at the bottoms of the windshield and rear hatch window within 3 years after my friend's BRAND NEW purchase due to rust. He saved for a year to buy this car, his first car, as an entering college student. This was how GM rewarded him. The rust was common on these cars, and we don't live in a salted area. Combine that with the engines' typical corrosion and destruction by 50-60K miles and I don't know how else you would define POS. And that is not an exaggeration in this case.
But what about the other intangibles and "little" things that annoy you about a domestic car? What about the fine details that anger you with the lemon like quality? :lemon:
I'm talking about your windshield cracking in half (from center top to center bottom) for no apparent reason when you park in the shade on a very hot day. I'm talking about a rattle trap galore, with rattles coming from the front, the sides, the back, the top, and all around you. Noises, rattles, clunks, and other associated sounds that worsen your driving experience? What about not getting the advertised or specified performance or gas mileage? What about glues and adhesives melting and seeping all over your windshield and back windows due to heat buildup in the trim pieces in sunny CA? What about wind noise seeping into the cabin because trim pieces fit so poorly and don't stay in place like they should.
Keep in mind that most people wouldn't bother trying to fix most of these things once the warranty runs out at 36,000 miles or 3 years, so you'll just have to live with it. Living with it day to day as it gets worse and worse, only to be insulted when you go to trade it in and you get offered 10 Mexican pesos for it, only to find out that is a very FAIR offer for it indeed :sick: :P
T-bone: (I like like that name, t-bone_rare, would have been a great CB handle back in the 70s)...we probably agree on a fair amount, and I respect your difference of opinion...my forst experience with a big box store was a Home Depot about 50 miles away...my local hardware store M&P (Mom & Pop) sold U-shaped fluorescent bulbs for $16.50 each back in 1992...Home Depot sold them for $5.50...so, I could buy eight bulbs from M&P for $132.00 for 8 bulbs from Home Depot for $44.00, saving me $88.00...now you can argue all day that M&P went to church, paid local taxes, yada, yada, yada, but saving $88.00 (make it $80.00 as I had to pay for gas to get to Home Depot)...certainly seemed to me that M&P were raping me...at the time, their big box competition was an hour away, so they were somewhat insulated, until Lowes moved right into the little town...yes, I realize that HD has greater buying power than M&P, but I think you may miss my point...
By saving $80.00, that gave me the money to take my wife out for dinner, twice, and patronize the local restaurants, ALSO owned by a different M&P who pay into the local tax base and go to church...from my viewpoint, the M&P hardware store was overcharging out the wazoo because they could, and taking my business to HD meant that two restaurants got my business because I didn't spend that money at M&P hardware store...
Everybody misses the point about WalMart, HD and Lowes...yes, they often put local M&P competitors out of business, but local M&P have no "divine right" to exist if someone can undercut them on the identical item...why pay $5 for a Fram oil filter if the same can be bought at WalMart for $2.50...why should I waste the extra $$$ at local store???...and, by big box stores freeing up my cash by charging less, I can still patronize other stores that would have lost my business if I spent it all on those light bulbs...
Disregarding the "China factor" for a moment with WalMart, many folks now have some disposable income because they buy stuff at WalMart for a cheaper price...that extra money may be the tipping point between a vacation or not...if they can now afford a vacation, think of the $$$ now spent at resorts all because they didn't shop at M&P stores...it is NOT a zero sum game...money spent on overpriced products at M&P's hardware store means no money for local restaurants, so if the hardware store goes under because of big box pricing, that is simply non-survival of the non-fittest...but I have extra money in my pocket because of HD/WM/Lowes or whatever the store is...
If you want to pay 3 times the price for those bulbs, feel free to do so...but I think the rest of us would rather save money so we can spend it on something else we like...so, yes, I feel that M&P has been raping us for years...charging three times the price for a bulb, what would YOU call it???... :confuse: :P
Back in the good old Mom and Pop days, if you purchased something and it was defective, it was a huge hassle returning it. Forget returning it if your wife had just happened to buy the same item that morning or if you simply changed your mind a day later.
One of these days maybe we'll be able to sit around and be nostalgic about the good old car dealer days and the great dealership experience we enjoyed.
The sooner the better....
Regards,
OW
Like working for GM and C, you are selling their products but there may come a time when the global competition unseats GM and C because they will absorb GM and C. Their old business model just does not keep up and change is not fast enough. Change hurts if you let it but if you go with the flow there will always opportunities that will boggle your mind with abundance as long as fear does not keep you riveted to the status quo.
Go Hyundai!!
Regards,
OW
When I was a little kid my dad had a grocery store. You could get all you needed there to feed a family. Even ground his own meat and such. Always either had a butcher there or was the butcher. A small 7-11 is larger than that store was.
At the time there was one really big store nearby and a small (but much bigger than dad's place) A&P. By the time he moved on to the next thing there were probably four pretty substantial sized stores to compete with. Since then those have expanded to cavernous size and more have been built. Just the way life goes.
- Blacksmiths. They used to be everywhere.
- Slide rule manufacturers. I can't find them anymore.
- Makers of candy cigarettes. I'll bet those were made in the USA!
- Turntables. I have a BIC 960 in the garage that doesn't work very well any more. It was made in the USA. I don't want to buy one from Japan or China.
- Aerospace workers. We used to have a lot more of them in Southern California. We need them again. Build some bombers!
- Soda shops. What's a teenager to do. The "National Soda Shop Act". $10billion to build one for every 10,000 people, across the USA.
:shades:
Yes, progress has left many behind. Should we be subsidizing CRT TV and VCR repair shops too?
Case in point, the TV show that's been on where the CEO's of corporations go undercover and assume positions within their companies. Most of those positions would probably be classified as "unskilled". For the most part, the CEO's have a helluva time doing the job that they have outlined for others to do. It's pretty much an eye opener for the executives.
Let me finish with this thought. All of us have different skill sets. All of our jobs are important working within the team framework. I can't fix a car in the shop....but the technicians have no idea how to sell a car. In order for the dealership to prosper, we all have to do our jobs well. Not meaning to be contrary. Just a thought.
Nope, you make what you EARN. The dealer doesn't guarantee you $30/hr if you don't sell anything all week.
They are now "technicians". Are they unskilled? I suppose if you went to an automobile factory you might find a guy with a wrench that tightens things down. Most of them have very specific duties. I'm not sure that makes them unskilled.
And I'm sure everyone at the dealer is paid according to the value of the job and quantity of people with those skills in the labor pool. The car hops are going to be paid much less than a master mechanic or the top salesmen of the month.
My definition of unskilled is more based on marketability. Say you are the only person in the plant that knows how to keep machine "A" producing parts at max efficiency. What happens when machine A is obsolete and the only thing you know how to do or want to do is run machine A? You might of had a skill that was in huge demand for as many years as machine A being used and you were paid top dollar (maybe more than your peers running different machines). Now, no one uses machine A and your skill is no longer in demand, and no company is going to pay you top dollar anymore.
Most of those positions would probably be classified as "unskilled". For the most part, the CEO's have a helluva time doing the job that they have outlined for others to do. It's pretty much an eye opener for the executives.
That is certainly true, but the difference is the CEO can put an add in the paper and find 100's of people that can be trained in a short amount of time to perform many of those jobs. Many companies do have CEO's that at one time was an entry level employee, sometimes the cream does rise to the top.
I doubt many engineers would be overly productive on a GM assembly line, but how many on the assembly line can perform the tasks required of the engineer. If GM puts an add in the paper for labor on the assembly line and at the same time places an add for a mechanical engineer, which will bring in more resumes/applications?
It shows that "skill" is not just what someone of the "educated class" believes is a skill needed for a job. People learn skills as they work and become very good at their job. Some of those executives were downright foolish in their attempts to do real work.
The people who criticize "lugnut tighteners" using a power tool on a high rate assembly line as unskilled might need to reconsider. If they feel that some were overpaid greatly in past UAW positives, they might need to redefine that as somewhat overpaid.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No, no velcro. Although, I don't know why I am married. I showed up for my first date w/ my (now) wife wearing a pair of sears sneakers w/ velcro straps. Every now and then she still rags on me for that.
At 5'6", 182lbs, no mannequin body here.
".....I was under the impression that we started losing garment jobs in the 70s, because my wife's relatives worked in shirt factories in Mississippi in the 70s, which would be about the time union power was rising..."
Well, those "Mississippi" jobs came from up north. Was your wife's relatives union? Here is a nice history of Fall River Mass. from a textile perspective:
http://www.textilehistory.org/FallRiverMA.html
I suppose I am referring to the amount of training to do the job, and, no, that is not a definition cast in stone...the technicians (mechanics?) who work on cars in repair shops are certified to diagnose and fix numerous problems on a vehicle...the person who sells vehicles must know numerous specs on numerous vehicles, and also must be skilled in dealing with people and finance and price negotiation...now, let's compare the Honda worker with the UAW worker...the UAW worker will tighten lug nuts only, and will go on strike if he is asked to install windshields, besides, "that ain't in my contract"...the Honda worker, OTOH, will install dashboards this week, engines next week, jump over to lug nuts for a day, and then go work in tire mounting, as he is cross-trained to do whatever they may need him to do...I consider the Honda worker far more skilled than the UAW worker, who sole goal in life in to be appointed to the Jobs Bank, where he is paid a full salary plus benefits to sit, watch TV and eat donuts, then go home and teach his children that he is holding his UAW spot open for them when he retires from years of hard
workdonut-eating...There was a poster named rocky, a VERY pro-union, UAW-or-die person, who frequently posted about those "toothless, ignorant southern rednecks" who migrated north looking for factory jobs...what he forgot was that it was just those workers who ended up working at the auto plants assembling cars...so, I have it on good authority (from him) that if these ignorant southerner can be trained to tighten lugnuts, I find it difficult to call it "skilled labor"...plus, after living in Detroit for 10 years, I can ASSURE you that the average level of intelligence up there ain't exactly tipping the "genius" range, if you catch my drift...
My father was also a victim of the changes in business...he ran an auto parts store with a machine shop...we had a large store called Caldor's, a Kmart type store in its day...when Caldor sold Stanley hammers for $7 (this was the 1960s and 70s, mind you) lower than the local hardware store (does the phrase Mom & Pop ring a bell???) who sold it for $10, my father was thrilled, because the $3 savings would fill up his gas tank, effectively for free...so, he shopped at Caldor's...one day, Caldor's started selling GM-Delco points and condensers (are you old enough to know what they are?) and distributor caps and rotors, blister-packed for pegboard retail sales, and they sold them about 20% lower than my Dad sold them...he was FURIOUS...how was he supposed to make a living when these "big box" stores were undercutting his prices on fast moving, high profit items???...even at that age (16, maybe 17), I remember quietly asking Dad why was it OK for him to buy the hammer at Caldor and save money, but not OK for Caldor to compete with him???...he just quietly realized, with much more business perception than I had, that business was changing...he didn't know WHAT was ahead, but he knew that things were starting to change from the last 20-plus years in retail...in essence, he saw handwriting on the wall, but not enough handwriting was "written" yet to know what was coming down the pike...almost like animals sensing a tsunami or earthquake, he knew something was different, but didn't know how much...when his store closed in 1986, he was being undercut in price from other auto parts competitors that sold parts cheaper, and also were not bound by Teamsters labor contracts...the other places paid labor 1/3 less due to no union...change had come...
Maybe those workers should get together and buy SAAB so they can make cars that are really born from jets :P
I agree, no company has a divine right to exist. I do think that those prices nowadays do overstate it a bit. We have a company here in RI called Benny's. Far from a M&P, as there are about 20-30 locations in RI, SE Mass, and Eastern Ct., but just the type of company we have seen fold when WalMart first entered this area. That $2.50 Fram filter would be $2.99 at most at Benny's. More? Yes. But hardly worth my time to go the extra 12 miles round trip to Wally World.
What I think whips me up more about them is how they strongarm other companies that mfr. the products they sell. This is why you CAN'T disregard the "China factor". One of the reasons Levi's are made overseas is because WalMart wouldn't put them on their shelves unless Levi's could sell them to Wally for Wally's price. Levi's didn't have the cache' anymore to tell WalMart to shove it. In the same respect, not even WalMart has the cache' to tell Sony or Nintendo or Microsoft to sell them video game consoles at a price that would undercut other stores by say, $50. If Sony says the PS3 retails for $299, EVERYBODY sells it for that, or they just don't sell it.
You are right that it is crazy to spend 3 times more for light bulbs, and that it isn't a zero sum game. Here is a study done on the economic impact of "buying locally"
http://www.newrules.org/retail/bigboxstudies.pdf
I think unskilled means how long it would take to learn a job. How much expertise is needed? If somebody walked in off the street, how long would it take for them to become competent at the job?:
- car salesman: a few months?
- auto mechanic: six months? more?
- lug nut tightener: a day or two?
- floor sweeper: a day or two?
- brain surgeon: 10 years?
- airline pilot: 4 years?
You get my point.
Or buy Saab and make jets that were born from cars. :shades:
One of the reasons Levi's are made overseas is because WalMart wouldn't put them on their shelves unless Levi's could sell them to Wally for Wally's price. Levi's didn't have the cache' anymore to tell WalMart to shove it....bold italic emphasis from marsha7...
Cooter: I think I also see another side to what you say...Levi's didn't have the cache...why didn't Levis simply sell their goods elsewhere, made in America, at a slightly higher/much higher price???...BECAUSE THEY WANTED ACCESSS TO WALMART'S HUGE MARKET...Levis simply made a business decision that went against what you wished they would do...why couldn't Levis tolerate a smaller market share and make their goods with US labor???...because they WANTED the Walmart market...you agreed with me that no copany has a divine right to sell its goods, and does that not apply to Levi as well???...of course in a perfect world it would be nice for Levi to be made in America, but the marketing world changed, just like it did for my father years before anyone outside of Bentonville ever heard of WalMart...
Also, it would not be worth it to go to Wally for saving 50 cents on the Fram filter, but the example I told you about the bulbs was true, almost to the penny...do you think that was the ONLY item that M&P hardware was price gouging me???...when some gas stations were selling gas for $6/gallon here in Atlanta a few years ago, some folks wanted a federal fine for price gouging...yet you defend M&P for selling me the bulbs for THREE TIMES the price of Home Depot!!!...wouldn't YOU be ECSTATIC that some competition finally came to town even tho it was an hour away???...even payiong for gas I saved about $80 on the sale...and if Wally sold them for $4 I would have gone there, helping to put both M&P and HD out of business...I simply fail to see why the simple goal shouldn't be the cheapest selling price to the public...do you want to pay $2000 more for a car from your local dealer, or will you travel 50 miles to save $2000???...maybe $2K is mere pocket change to you, but I don't mind keeping 2 grand in my pocket, buying the same product at either place...for 50 cents, I will buy the Fram from a local M&P parts store, but if 4 Michelin tires at Wally are $300, and $450 from an M&P tire specialty store, where are you going???
This whole Edmunds concept is founded on getting the lowest price by revealing what dealers pay at invoice...that concept, buying the most car for the least money, is not different than buying the most light bulbs for the least money, the ONLY difference is that the dollar value is different...do you lament Edmunds publishing invoice prices???...if there was an "Edmunds" for hardware invoice prices would you participate, or would you boycott it and find fault with those who went to the "Wally Hardware Store" because they sold nuts and bolts cheaper???
I read that article about walmart and local business...they seem to miss the points that really matter...
1. Wages are depressed...so what???...why should shelf stockers (a "craft" I am sure can be taught in less than a day) get $20/hour plus benefits...Wally needs mostly unskilled labor, and, except for the UAW, unskilled labor does not demand high wages because it is...unskilled...go to school, learn a trade, and make more money...no one EVER said that WalMart was a career for everyone...
2. Local stores may go under...local stores, IMO, HAVE been raping us for years, and to have any factor that can lower prices, like volume buying, helps not only me, but EVERY customer that does not mind saving money...let the local join a coop like Ace Hardware, where the store is owned by M&P, but they piggy-back onto Ace and get the volume discounts...they sell only a few pennies above Wally and HD and I DO shop M&P when they are competitive...
3. Every analysis of Big Box assumes that everything is static and the only different element is the Big Box store, by economics is dynamic...I still maintain my simple example...if I had to buy bulbs at M&P, spending $80 more, I would not have had the money to take my wife out to 2 or 3 decent restaurant meals (in the 1990s, a decent meal for two could be had for $20-25)...why don't you talk to the three local M&P restauranteurs and ask if they objected to my patronizing THEM with the extra money in my pocket???...so, maybe the M&P hardware store suffered, but three restaurants had my wife and I as customers, and they would NOT have seen us if I bought the bulbs at M&P hardware, as I would not have the available money to do so...that is a concept that NO article or economist EVER takes into consideration when they criticize big box stores, and that is why I consider those writers more biased than the average politican, as their agenda is to protect M&P at all costs, usually for nostalgic purposes only, and those costs will come out of MY POCKET...
When I did real estate closings in the late 1990s, I was paid about $600 per closing...as time went on, I began to lose that business, as there were attorneys willing to do those closings for $300...for the work and responsibility involved, $300 was simply not worth it...where were you trying to protect my higher fee???...why didn't you protest that for someone to undercut my fee was heresy???...of course not...I simply saw the same thing that I saw with my father, that someone was willing to do the same thing for less, and I had no choice but to get out of the business and learn a new area of law...was it painful???...yes, I was comforatble doing closings at $600...but did the consumer deserve to chance to save money???...absolutely...the market changed, and I had to change with it...
So does Mom & Pop, so do small towns when wally comes in, and folks need to understand that wally is not there to pay $15/hour plus benefits to someone who stocks corn flakes on the shelf and then moves 2 aisles down and stocks blankets on that shelf...Walmart is for part-time money, and anything that lowers their overhead to lower my price is OK with me...don't force wally to pay more for labor, how about telling the folks who work there that dropping out of grade school was not too intelligent, and thatlearning a skill other than shelf stocking just might pay a little more...make the PEOPLE change their mindset, don't punish Walmart for being what it has always been, part-time income for those with no skills...
Your argument is predicated on the idea that a UAW worker would not accept a different work assignment and would instead say, "That's not my job."
I don't believe that's true. UAW has been guilty of over negotiating for pricy rates for jobs.
I have no love for the UAW or Obama because they are the reason the Moraine plant closed: in the negotiations with Obama's people the UAW did not want to preserve the work here in Dayton because it is IUE. Therefore we have almost 25% job loss over a few years in this area. Nice to maintain jobs elsewhere, but the people assembling the SUVs here probably were doing a better than average job compared to UAW folks.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The story is Walmart showed the companies how to move the work to China because they had "turnkey" operations ready to go to replicate the production in the US for the companies. I understand that's what happened to Rubbermade, a Hudson, Ohio, company with fine reputation for childrens products, swings, playhouses, etc. They went through some kind of saga over the Walmart Syndrome and ended up with Newell as part owner and bye bye quality and jobs.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Wanted, or needed?? I don't think there would be a Levi Strauss,& Co. as we know it if they decided to be high and almighty and do w/o WalMart. I doubt they could afford the loss in market share if WalMart pulled them off the shelves for not being a "bargain" in the Walton family's eyes.
".......I simply fail to see why the simple goal shouldn't be the cheapest selling price to the public..." I'll add a word....possible.....
Using that argument, the US will never be able to compete, because there are too many other countries that can do it cheaper. We should be looking for the cheapest REASONABLE selling price, considering other things, such as quality, customer service, etc. Would I not drive the extra 50 miles to save the $2000 on a car, of course I would. Provided, it's the exact same car. Those light bulbs, I assume, were the exact same bulb. But, say they weren't. If you bought the HD brand and M&P were selling Sylvania's, and the HD bulbs burned out after a year, but the Sylvania's lasted over 2, at some point you are going to get sick and tired of changing those bulbs so frequently, and having to trudge the extra miles to get it. But by the time you figure it out, M&P will be out of business.
I have learned from experience that Benjamin Moore makes a great paint. It's expensive, but good. I USED to buy Behr (HD paint). BM's quality is FAR superior to Behr (IMO). I buy from a M&P store. I needed a quart of white for some trim. I paid $17.50 for it. A week later, my wife decided she wanted a different color for the vanity, and cabinet over the toilet. We were at the local Ace Hardware (a national chain), they sell Benjamin Moore, she picked out a color, and off we went. $19.95. I get home, it's the same exact can and everything as the can of white at the M&P. $2.45 "MOORE"
"........make the PEOPLE change their mindset, don't punish Walmart for being what it has always been, part-time income for those with no skills... "
On this we can agree. I personally think for the US to keep ahead of other countries, we need to upgrade our education system. Get the schedule out of the agrarian age and put it in the space age. I think it's entirely possible that by the time our grandkids graduate HS (I'm 42 w/ 2 teens, BTW) they will need to be ast LEAST as educated as our grandparents were (or would've been if they went to college) with a master's degree 50 years ago. They should be able to go out there with that hypothetical HS diploma 30-40 years from now and be intellegent enough to hold a full time job that will put food on the table, or be able to go to college and get a degree that will be meaningful and lasting. Those that want to drop out get what they deserve.
I, too, don't think WalMart should be punnished for being pt work w/pt pay. But they SHOULD be punnished for hiring people who would be ruthless enough to force someone to work off the clock with a threat of firing. I DO think it's wrong for them to strongarm American mfrs. into doing something they don't want to (move work overseas) just so they keep access to the Wally World. Who are they to "dictate" what they will pay for a product?? Isn't that what the so-called free market is for??? (Unless it isn't really free)
I don't think I'd ever agree to paying them that kind of money. Employees at M&P don't get that, either. But I DO think that there is a need for some sort of oversight on how these large companies strongarm their employees. Look at Tyson foods:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5248/is_33_21/ai_n29115642/
Now, I read this week that Tyson has agreed to pay their employees for that time. It's things like this that annoy me. I doubt it has any effect on what we pay for Tyson's products.
I learned long ago about quality paints. I have bought a lot from a Mom and Pop in a small town hardware store which has Martin Senour paint. Love it. They even had the original color in basement from Williamsburg collection of colors in the factory mixed color instead of having to mix it--because they bought up stock from some other small stores which went out of business. So we got a great match for original paint on our storage barn.
The knowledge that the adult salespeople/owners had about the various paints was amazing. If it cost $5 gallon more than a box store somewhere might be selling the same Martin Senour or the same paint with a different label, it was worth it for the information. I believe the company is now owned by Valspar which owns lots of other brands.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
imidaz: when I dealt with the UAW folks, they would talk about striking if their position was changed...what I witnessed amazed me...to assume UAW workers have any semblance of basic intelligence is simply fantasy...the number of them that act like the mentally deranged is remarkable...they can, and often are, clsoe to sub-human in their thought processes...10 years was enough for me...
cooter: "Wanted, or needed?? I don't think there would be a Levi Strauss,& Co. as we know it if they decided to be high and almighty and do w/o WalMart"...I will see your point, but the choice was still up to Levi-Strauss...also, the bulbs were the same brand or equivalent (Sylvania, GE, etc), but a good point to raise...ANY employer who does not pay employees for time worked should pay the penalty, I will vote against WM, Tyson or anyone else if I am on the jury...
"I DO think it's wrong for them to strongarm American mfrs. into doing something they don't want to (move work overseas) just so they keep access to the Wally World. Who are they to "dictate" what they will pay for a product??"...I see nothing wrong with that...you call it strong-arming, I call it tough business...WalMart says they want to sell denim jackets for $19.99...Levi, made in America, must sell for $29.99...Levi has a simple choice, either move manufacturing to meet WM's price, or tell WM to go to H*ll...they chose to move...
Who are they to "dictate" what they will pay???...they are the owners of the business and the building and they can dictate anything they want that is legal...after all, didn't GM dictate the price they would pay for auto components???...didn't they get suppliers hooked on GM as a major customer, and then, once hooked, GM demanded they lower their prices and they would because they didn't want to lose GM as the customer, but they could have told GM to join WM in H*ll...
cooter, all it comes down to is contract negotiation...you want to sell your car to me for $10K...I am only willing to pay a measly $3K...most folks would say to split the difference and settle at $6,500...problem is, I am unwilling to pay more than $3K...now YOU have a choice...since I am the only buyer to contact you in the last 3 months (I make up my own stories, you know), you can sell to me for $3K or keep the car...but you really need some money to pay for a root canal, so you sell to me for $3K...was that fair???...yes, because you could have walked away...did you get a fair price???...if you agreed to sell the car to me, yes, you got a fair price...did you get the best price???...no, but you could have waited another 3 months for another buyer, but your needed root canal would also have to wait...
Levi needed the root canal, so they sold their product as conditions were dictated to them...they ALWAYS had the right to walk away and just sell to Western Wear stores...I might have respected them more if they did just that...
Also remember, I am amazed at the number of people who actually believe that two parties MUST compromise "fairly" and reach an agreement...there is no earthly reason to believe that...just like when the dealer will sell the car for $20,500 and the buyer won't go higher than $20,400...the buyer looks at the dealer and says "you will let me walk for a measly $100???"...and the dealer responds, "and you will turn down this car for a measly $100???"...and they part company because the $100 to the dealer was as important as the $100 to the buyer...
Levi could have walked, but they caved...it is as simple as that...who knows, if they stayed in America and sold at the higher price at Western stores and the Internet store "American Products", maybe they could have done quite well without Walmart, but we will never know...
Don't blame Walmart for tough negotiating, blame Levi for being greedy for refusing to live with a lower volume with better quality and a higher price...
Well no offense, but who is to define REASONABLE? Is it what unskilled workers in the world's richest country WANT it to be? That's sort of funny. This is a natural progression. Kind of like saying you don't want to die. It happens and is part of the cycle. Witch doctors - gone. Blacksmiths - gone. Slide rule makers - gone. VCRs - going fast. You want to fly all over the world on vacation? Boeing should make planes in the USA to sell all over the world, adding US jobs? But the ability to transport goods all over the world should NOT give the others the ability to send goods here? Sort of have your cake and eat it, too?
On this we can agree. I personally think for the US to keep ahead of other countries, we need to upgrade our education system. Get the schedule out of the agrarian age and put it in the space age. I think it's entirely possible that by the time our grandkids graduate HS (I'm 42 w/ 2 teens, BTW) they will need to be ast LEAST as educated as our grandparents were (or would've been if they went to college) with a master's degree 50 years ago. They should be able to go out there with that hypothetical HS diploma 30-40 years from now and be intellegent enough to hold a full time job that will put food on the table, or be able to go to college and get a degree that will be meaningful and lasting. Those that want to drop out get what they deserve.
I agree with that. IMHO the problem is that with the unions stifling any creativity in the public schools, we are screwed unless we can break that. We can't afford to be inflexible on education if we want to stay ahead. Funny how the teachers' unions oppose merit-based pay because "testing measures are too flawed". Never mind that they expect their kids to be evaluated with tests. What a joke.
I don't think I've bought a denim jacket since maybe 1991 or 1992, and it was Guess. I think I paid 20 bucks for it because it was out-of-season, and I got an employee discount for it at the department store where I worked. It was something like a $95 jacket, new! I do remember buying a Levi's denim jacket back in 11th or 12th grade, which would put it around 1987. Way back then, that sucker was 50 bucks! It lasted, though. Eventually, the elbows tore through, and I cut off the sleeves and used it as a vest. I think I still have the thing, although it's been awhile since I've worn it.
I wonder if a $19.99 or $29.99 Levi's jacket would last as long? If they're selling them nowadays for 40-60% of what they did 23 years ago, I wonder if in addition to labor, they might have cut corners somewhere?
With Ron Bloom running our 2 Auto companies and conspiring with the bozos on Capital Hill, we are in "deep abyss" of misinformation..
Remember Senator J McCarthy back a few decades ago, court trials involving certain activities that were deemed not in the best interest of our American way of life..
I came across a good book, just hitting the best seller's lists titled "Manchurian President"..It all sounds pretty feasible to me, but then again, being born in 1933, I have witnessed the "Greatness of America", when 100% of the cars produced were "homespun", in fact, we used to produce everything we consumed, bought or used..
You know, Ford is looking better every day, and as they used to say "chicken in every pot and a Ford in every garage"..or something like that???
I emailed Ford asking about the 113 top end of the new V-6 Mustang w/performance pkg, and what fix is available to allow a higher top end..a different chip or what ever!!! could use a V-8 will probably be the answer..
The July issue of "Motor Trend" arrived yesterday and the Hyundai fans should be excited about the rating of the Genesis Coupe 3.8, only costs $6k more that the Mustang V-6 w/performance pkg..for the extra dough one could have a V-8 and cream the Korean.. Well, performance wise the V-6 Stang does very well.
Also the Hyundai Genesis Sedan 3.8 comes up 1st place in the $40K sedans as shown in the July issue of Car and Driver..
When I was in 6th grade - this would be back in 1988, I was able to con my mother into buying me a fleece lined Levis jacket, which cost something like $80 back then. I wore it only for a few years as I slightly outgrew it, but I am pretty sure it is still hanging in a closet, it held up perfectly for the period of hard use I gave it. I wonder what those cost now and where they are made. About 2 years ago I did buy a USA made leather jacket...it cost a fortune, but the build quality is much better than any Chinese made department store stuff I have seen.
I won't argue that they won't protest longer days and school years unless they get paid more, but testing is an arbitrary thing. The LAST thing I'd want to see is students being taught to pass a test as opposed to the material the test covers. I think we do see this.
The biggest problem I see with public education right now is way too many people pulling in way too many directions, and nothing ends up getting done. I think that there should be equal responsibility placed on the student, parents, and teachers for the student's education.
Does ANYBODY make them in America anymore???...I will be happy NOT to go to Walmart and spend my money on something that will last 10 years...no frills, no fancy crap on it, just a plain denim jacket with buttons on front and pockets...