We should stop pining after the days when millions of Americans stood along assembly lines and continuously bolted, fit, soldered or clamped what went by. Those days are over. And stop blaming poor nations whose workers get very low wages. Of course their wages are low; these nations are poor. They can become more prosperous only by exporting to rich nations. When America blocks their exports by erecting tariffs and subsidizing our domestic industries, we prevent them from doing better. Helping poorer nations become more prosperous is not only in the interest of humanity but also wise because it lessens global instability.
Wow, Robert Reich...under Clinton (remember NAFTA?) and now teaches at Berkeley. Real conservative guy! Hey Bob, look up the history of Greenville Steel Car Company and Trinity Industries Greenville plant and see what you can find out. Those jobs in my old hometown, for good, small-town Americans, were pimped out to those poor folks in Mexico.
Whatever happened to taking care of your own, first?
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I might add, I actually thought that quote was from someplace like Comedy Central or another parody source, until I saw it was actually a quote from Reich.
I just have to shake my head at the rabid (yes, rabid...I don't think you've seen anyone called an 'idiot' by the pro-domestic side here), hatred of particularly GM. A classic example is the talk I've seen about OnStar. Nobody else has anything like it. Can get you into your car when you're locked out. Can tell you where your stolen car is. Will call for help immediately when you are in a crash and your cell phone perhaps goes flying. Can stop a stolen car while moving. I can understand you not being interested in these things, but since it's GM, these things are BAD! How can they be bad? Man, if Hyundai or Toyota or BMW came up with it, it'd be..
You can hate the GM product you had ten or fifteen or twenty-five years ago, but let's hope for the sake of the U.S. that they do better. I always think, 'would you not have bought a '65 Mustang new because of your '48 Ford?'. That seems laughable now, but that's what a lot of GM haters expect us to buy into...their negative experiences way back when.
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My hometown most definitely was decimated by the loss of manufacturing, Now the people themselves are literally being decimated. Eight people were shot last night alone.
Sorry, but I have severely disliked every GM product to come my way. My most recent experience is my wife's 07 GP (that's not 10-20 years ago, though it looks, feels, and drives like it's 20 years old). It's garbage. ONSTAR or not, I can say it's never been used.
While Onstar is definitely a feature, but it's not something I'd buy a car for and I'm a techie.
I've only owned two non domestic vehicles, so I speak from experience regarding my feelings on domestic cars. My 07 Expedition (I do like it overall) has not been perfectr. As with most of my domestics, once they get more than 3 years on them and 50k miles the issues crop up. Now the auto climate control is all jacked up. Fan runs on high speed all of the time and I can't turn it off. At 60k it had a coil pack and spark plug issue that caused me to leave $1k at the dealer. While the Expedition has been far cheaper so far to maintain than my '00 Suburban was, it's been far from trouble free.
In comparison, my MIL has an 05 Camry v6 with 120k miles that have never had a single issue. It sounds and feels turbine smooth when running next to the 3800 in my wife's GP which is two years newer has 1/2 the miles and showing far more wear and tear (My MIL commutes into downtown Chicago everyday, so it sees a far more severe driving cycle). I guess I have to apologize that I notice the higher quality some other manufacturers. I want to be proud of our domestic vehicles, but it's hard.
Re. an '07 Grand Prix, my only experience is my friend in Columbus has one (they like it), and I'd had them for rentals. Matter of fact, I had a V8 FWD Grand Prix once and it was almost scary fast, and sounded great!
What does the vaunted CR say about '07 Grand Prix reliability? I'm curious.
Styling is subjective, of course, but I sure think a GP looks better than an '05 Camry. Those seem like a car, to me, for today's Miss Jane Hathaways.
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I love when GM loyalist (that they never did nor can do no wrong) use that tired old excuse/line, that us who had problems with our GM products had them way back when and it doesn't really apply to today and we just focus on problem models from long ago.
Problem is, at least for me and a few others on here, it didn't just happen 15-25 yrs ago, it happen just a few short years ago with more recent GM products when we were still with them so that tired old argument that it happen only on products long ago is just another excuse. I've been more moderate on my criticisms of GM compared to others GM critics on here, but I'm not going to give them a free pass on everything and after almost 3 decades of problem models, am going to come crawling back after they snap their fingers and change some products in just 2 years. A complete 180 doesn't happen that quickly. Is GM heading in the right direction, yes, but its going to take more time.
I do agree with you though, that it is in our best interest, especially after the bailouts and bankruptcy that they become successful b/c if, it is not only going to hurt GM but us and this country as well.
That is a very nice '65 Dodge Coronet 500 and I wondered how long it would take someone to at least mention it!
Mr. Drysdale must have paid OK, and/or had a share in a Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge dealership as I remember he and stuffy Mrs. Drysdale were always seen in Imperials!
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I had the GM products from way back when and had no problem with them either. I won't use the excuse that they were "bad" back in the day and they're all that now.
What does the vaunted CR say about '07 Grand Prix reliability? I'm curious.
I've never checked, but I will say so far my wife's GP has never needed a repair, so reliability isn't an issue (though it does leak a bit of oil and it burns a qt every 1,500 miles or so). It's the overall refinement and build quality that is bad. It squeaks and rattles. Fit-n-finish is horrible. I don't think a single body panel lines up correctly. Interior comfort is non existent. "God this car sucks" is a common response from passengers.
The interior isn't holding up well. The cheap plastics on the radio buttons have worn through, so at night, you have stray lights shining everywhere. The radio display is out. It just feels, looks, and drives cheap. Gotta love the HAL display on the center stack.
While I don't know how anyone can see the GP as an attractive car outside and particularly inside (granted this is beating a dead horse as it has thankfully been put to pasture).
I'm not a Toyota fan, really! An 05 or current camry is a boring car that I have no desire to own. But when I drive my MIL's XLS v6, I'm consistently impressed with how smooth and refined it is and how well it is holding up and I understand why it sells so well. I love how smooth Toyota powertrains are in general.
Maybe your wife should've chosen a Buick LaCrosse as her company car, (if they offered it)? My wife's 2005 model is holding up admirably and she drives like a NYC cabbie.
Maybe your wife should chosen a Buick LaCrosse as her company car, (if they offered it)? My wife's 2005 model is holding up admirably and she drives like a NYC cabbie.
No dice, not an option. She got stuck with this car as we were relocated and it was waiting for her back in 07 at her new office. '06 was the last time she got to chose her own car The options were an 06 Impala, Ford 500, and GP. She chose the 500 for it's generous room. She put 45k on it that year and it was a good car. Comfortable, fuel efficient, and reliable. It was a good boring sedan. IMO, eons better than her previous '01 Impala and '03 Taurus (god that car was the worst, just to slow with the ancient 3.0 vulcan v6).
She should be getting a new car in the coming months. Looks like her employer has dumped GM all together (all the new company cars I've seen lately are Fusions or Taurus's). I think she'll be getting a new Taurus, which I don't think she can complain about. It's far nicer than a current Impala, particularly considering she generally gets base models. And it will be a luxury car compared to the GP.
Wasn't that last iteration of GP sort-of built with the Chrysler concept of 'cab forward', so they were known for a lot of rear-seat legroom for a car in that class?
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I think most people who are pro-domestic on this forum don't say everything GM has done is perfect; it's usually the pro-foreign guys who say everything foreign is perfect. As is always the case, the truth is usually somewhere closer to the center. But the extremists here certainly seem to be on the pro-foreign side.
I've had nothing but GM's (well, one used Chrysler) as daily drivers since 1981. My GM's were all new cars. Besides wanting to buy American and almost always liking the styling better, I have enjoyed the number of dealers available (although not needed) and the treatment I have gotten from more than one Service Department...going beyond the warranty if it's the right thing to do. I read repeatedly about foreign car dealers having a 'take it or leave it' arrogance. I couldn't deal with that.
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What are the other choices? I think the Taurus' styling is rather heavy-handed. Not crazy about the current Impala's "Accord on steroids" look either.
I don't know currently. One of her co-workers was due for a new car and he didn't get an option, a new Taurus was delivered to his office.
I really don't have a problem with a Taurus (Styling is okay IMO) Mainly, she only gets base models and a base Taurus is much better than a base Impala. Mainly because Ford's 3.5/6speed combo shames the 3.5/4speed in an Impala.
. I read repeatedly about foreign car dealers having a 'take it or leave it' arrogance. I couldn't deal with that.
I've dealt with many dealers across several brands and IMO they all have good and bad. When I bought a new Nissan Pathfinder in '01. The dealer sold Jeep and Chrysler out of the same lot. I went there to consider a Jeep Liberty. Drove it, thought it sucked and bought the PF. I had to take the PF back once for a check engine light (bad O2 sensor) and service was great. They gave me a Liberty to drive for the day and I couldn't wait to get my PF back. That 3.7 v6 was intolerable compared to Nissan's VQ3.5 at the time, not to mention all the other ways the PF was vastly superior.
The only other foreign car I've owned was a VW and I guess I must be the only person to have something good to say about them, but the dealer was good too. Once again the dealer also sold Mazda and Volvo. I never had repair done, but at the time the oil changes were provided by VW for the first two years, so I took in there for oil changes and was happy.
Ironically, the worst dealer experience I've had was with Saturn of all places. My wife had a '92 Saturn SL2 that had two major issues (well she was my girl friend in college when she bought it). It burned oil (1qt/500 miles @ 50k miles) if driven short trips and it would occasionally jump out of 3rd gear (it had a manual trans) on occasion. They did an oil test and confirmed the oil consumption issue but wouldn't fix it under GM's extended powertrain warranty. They were adamant that a quart per 500 miles was reasonable oil consumption and they couldn't verify the jumping out of gear issue. The service manager told me maybe my wife didn't know how to property drive a stick. Well that really pissed me off because I told the jackass it happened to me several times too. But that is water under the bridge and that was our one and only Saturn.
Wasn't that last iteration of GP sort-of built with the Chrysler concept of 'cab forward', so they were known for a lot of rear-seat legroom for a car in that class?
Every W-body I've ever sat in has had a miserable back seat, but I always thought the Grand Prix was the worst! They're roomy enough up front, but the back is cramped and hard to get in and out. The trunk space is decent though.
Those old Chrysler LH cars were pretty roomy inside, although I always hated the front passenger seat in my Intrepid. There wasn't much legroom, and the floorpan wasn't very deep. With a power seat, you would be able to angle it further back for more comfort, but mine was just a base model.
I thought that the Taurus interior felt cramped...the narrow windows and low roof probably don't help. Not to mention the gigantic console. The Lincoln MKS, based on the same platform, felt roomier.
And I posted today, in part, to have the 10,000th post on this thread. Do I get a prize...?
I like the looks of this current Taurus, and its built in Chicago, but I don't think you can get one with a bench/column shift/center armrest, which I think gives you the impression of more room up front.
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Of course, in 25 years, we may look at the Grand Prix the way we look at a 1963 Studebaker Lark now
I resemble that remark! I have a '63 Lark, and also a '64 Daytona.
For as little respect as Studes generally got, I remember once or twice looking at old Consumer Reports April Auto issues at Hershey and/or our college library (can't remember which at this late date), but I was pleased/surprised to see they were often rated as more reliable than the mainstream brands. I also remember seeing a CR where they tested '63 domestic compacts and they showed a picture of a guy with a hat climbing right into the front seat of the Lark, where getting into a Buick Special his hat came flying off!
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My father's first two cars were Studebakers - a 1951 "bullet nose" Champion four-door sedan (which he sold to his parents) followed by a 1953 Champion Starlight coupe. I have no beefs with Studebakers.
The 1960s Studebakers were reliable because, by that point, Studebaker didn't have the money to invest in new platforms or engines. The platform debuted in 1953, while the V-8 debuted in 1951. The six was a reworked version of an engine that debuted prior to World War II. Most of the bugs should have been worked out of them by that point, although the rusting front fenders were a feature right up until the bitter end.
"American Car" means "Assembled in the USA by Americans".
Therefore, the Hyundai Sonata is domestic (to us), while the Mexican-built Ford Fusion is an Import.
I guess that depend on what one believes is an American car. If it's where it's built and parts content, then many foreign owed makes would be considered domestic.
That would rule out many vehicles from Ford and GM such as the Fusion, current Regal, Aveo, some GM trucks/suvs, and Fiesta etc.
I agree with your assessment. They did a lot with that V8 though...in 1963 it set land speed records in the Avanti at Bonneville, certified by the USAC.
Amazingly, I believe my '64 still has its original front fenders as the paint job is amateurish but the outer fenders are still welded to the inners--usually they got pop-riveted to the inners during replacement. My car spent the first half of its life in western PA and the second half in Wisconsin and has 103K miles. And no, the car doesn't have that Studebaker feature of a vertical stripe of rust at the rear of the front fenders. The '64 supposedly has "Aluminized Rustproofing", which I'm not sure made any difference or not.
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Growing up I remember when I was 8 the next door neighbor bought a new 1959 Studebaker Lark. I really wanted that car.
I always liked Wilbur Post's Studebaker on Mr. Ed.
I don't know what it was with the business end of Studebaker. They were in the car business from the very beginning, lost a bundle in the depression but got the great government reprieve that all the carmakers got by turning their factories into defense plants and started out the late 40s in reasonably good shape only to blow it all. Took Packard down with it.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
My wife's father had one of those bullet-nose Studebakers - I think his was a 1950 model. His first car was a 1937 Studebaker. I recall seeing a picture of a fleet of South Bend, Indiana police cars from 1951. They placed the red pulsating light and siren in the bullet nose!
I don't know what it was with the business end of Studebaker.
From what I understand Studebaker made some bad business decisions regarding cash flow in the 50's, had some quality issues and had higher labor costs vs the competition. Sounds like another company that went bankrupt recently.
Though from what I've read, Studebaker didn't actually go bankrupt, but the board of directors decided to pull out of the auto business and was eventually acquired by other companies.
I know the closure of the South Bend plant led to a huge pension problem where many of those let go lost their pensions. This partially led to creating ERISA.
I know that Curtis - Wright owned Studebaker toward the end. As late as the early nineties you could follow the existence of what used to be the Studebaker company after they stopped making cars. It got renamed at one point and was a tiny finance outfit in the Curtis Wright company.
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Dealers with "hot" new cars usually give buyers a hard time. My neighbor's Hyundai dealer is demanding $500 over sticker for a new Tucson. She ordered the car, left a deposit, and they just won't deliver. The local Honda and Toyota stores can't do enough for you if you'll just, please, take a new Camry or Accord off their hands. Ditto the local Chrysler shop. The Ford and GM people are totally professional - just don't look for a real bargain. Twas ever thus....
A classic example is the talk I've seen about OnStar. Nobody else has anything like it. Can get you into your car when you're locked out. Can tell you where your stolen car is. Will call for help immediately when you are in a crash and your cell phone perhaps goes flying.
I don't have my source books right here now, but Curtiss-Wright did acquire control of Studebaker in the '56-58 period, at the time of the monumental losses of the merger years ($43 mil in '56; $13 mil in '57 after Packard in Detroit gone; $11 mil in '58). Then, they got out of the deal. In '59 Stude had its highest-ever one year profit--$28.5 million. Packard's President , James Nance, went over to run the Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln division for a year or two, then was fired. The last year for any profit in Studebaker's automotive division was '62, then the bottom fell out.
By that time, they had many non-auto-related divisions (Clarke Floor Machine, STP, Onan generator, to name a few) which were making money. The Service and Parts Division of Studebaker continued to operate out of South Bend, providing parts to authorized Studebaker Service Dealers, until the middle of 1972.
Of course, Avanti was bought by a South Bend Studebaker dealer who built it by hand until the early '80s; it then had a succession of owners since and is now defunct (finally).
No one in my family ever had a Studebaker, but I always admired what they did with what they had. I like their products better than AMC, generally, and I think prices of various models as collector cars bear out the appeal over AMC cars (only in general).
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You're right - Studebaker didn't go bankrupt in the 1960s. It simply stopped making cars at South Bend in December 1963.
This resulted in plenty of stories about Studebaker shutting down its main U.S. assembly plant, which gave most people the impression that the company was quitting the passenger car business completely. But Studebaker simply said that it was going to build all of its cars in Canada, and there would no major changes in the cars from this point forward.
Sales dwindled to nothing, which meant that Studebaker didn't have to pay anything to the dealers, as it was still technically in the car business. It's just that few people wanted them, since they bore the "orphan" stigma, and there were no major styling changes after the 1964 model year. (And the 1964 models were hardly on the cutting edge of automotive style.)
The dealers left the company on their own. They really couldn't sue Studebaker - the company was still making cars, and would happily supply the dealers with all of the cars that they wanted.
The Studebaker name disappeared for good in the late 1970s, if I recall correctly.
The difference between GM and Studebaker is that Studebaker left the U.S. auto market when car sales were booming - 1965 set a sales record for that time, and sales were also very good in 1963 and 1964. Studebaker just didn't share in the good times.
GM went bust when car sales began tanking, even though GM had been losing money at an alarming rate since about 2001. It couldn't make money when car sales were very high, so a downturn in the market was enough to push GM over the edge.
Comments
We should stop pining after the days when millions of Americans stood along assembly lines and continuously bolted, fit, soldered or clamped what went by. Those days are over. And stop blaming poor nations whose workers get very low wages. Of course their wages are low; these nations are poor. They can become more prosperous only by exporting to rich nations. When America blocks their exports by erecting tariffs and subsidizing our domestic industries, we prevent them from doing better. Helping poorer nations become more prosperous is not only in the interest of humanity but also wise because it lessens global instability.
Robert Reich
Whatever happened to taking care of your own, first?
I just have to shake my head at the rabid (yes, rabid...I don't think you've seen anyone called an 'idiot' by the pro-domestic side here), hatred of particularly GM. A classic example is the talk I've seen about OnStar. Nobody else has anything like it. Can get you into your car when you're locked out. Can tell you where your stolen car is. Will call for help immediately when you are in a crash and your cell phone perhaps goes flying. Can stop a stolen car while moving. I can understand you not being interested in these things, but since it's GM, these things are BAD! How can they be bad? Man, if Hyundai or Toyota or BMW came up with it, it'd be..
REVOLUTIONARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can hate the GM product you had ten or fifteen or twenty-five years ago, but let's hope for the sake of the U.S. that they do better. I always think, 'would you not have bought a '65 Mustang new because of your '48 Ford?'. That seems laughable now, but that's what a lot of GM haters expect us to buy into...their negative experiences way back when.
Shoot (NPI) at this point, it sounds like I would be better off going back to Detroilet!
Sorry, but I have severely disliked every GM product to come my way. My most recent experience is my wife's 07 GP (that's not 10-20 years ago, though it looks, feels, and drives like it's 20 years old). It's garbage. ONSTAR or not, I can say it's never been used.
While Onstar is definitely a feature, but it's not something I'd buy a car for and I'm a techie.
I've only owned two non domestic vehicles, so I speak from experience regarding my feelings on domestic cars. My 07 Expedition (I do like it overall) has not been perfectr. As with most of my domestics, once they get more than 3 years on them and 50k miles the issues crop up. Now the auto climate control is all jacked up. Fan runs on high speed all of the time and I can't turn it off. At 60k it had a coil pack and spark plug issue that caused me to leave $1k at the dealer. While the Expedition has been far cheaper so far to maintain than my '00 Suburban was, it's been far from trouble free.
In comparison, my MIL has an 05 Camry v6 with 120k miles that have never had a single issue. It sounds and feels turbine smooth when running next to the 3800 in my wife's GP which is two years newer has 1/2 the miles and showing far more wear and tear (My MIL commutes into downtown Chicago everyday, so it sees a far more severe driving cycle). I guess I have to apologize that I notice the higher quality some other manufacturers. I want to be proud of our domestic vehicles, but it's hard.
What does the vaunted CR say about '07 Grand Prix reliability? I'm curious.
Styling is subjective, of course, but I sure think a GP looks better than an '05 Camry. Those seem like a car, to me, for today's Miss Jane Hathaways.
Say what you will about Mr. Drysdale, but he must've paid his assistant pretty well! :P
Problem is, at least for me and a few others on here, it didn't just happen 15-25 yrs ago, it happen just a few short years ago with more recent GM products when we were still with them so that tired old argument that it happen only on products long ago is just another excuse. I've been more moderate on my criticisms of GM compared to others GM critics on here, but I'm not going to give them a free pass on everything and after almost 3 decades of problem models, am going to come crawling back after they snap their fingers and change some products in just 2 years. A complete 180 doesn't happen that quickly. Is GM heading in the right direction, yes, but its going to take more time.
I do agree with you though, that it is in our best interest, especially after the bailouts and bankruptcy that they become successful b/c if, it is not only going to hurt GM but us and this country as well.
Mr. Drysdale must have paid OK, and/or had a share in a Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge dealership as I remember he and stuffy Mrs. Drysdale were always seen in Imperials!
I've never checked, but I will say so far my wife's GP has never needed a repair, so reliability isn't an issue (though it does leak a bit of oil and it burns a qt every 1,500 miles or so). It's the overall refinement and build quality that is bad. It squeaks and rattles. Fit-n-finish is horrible. I don't think a single body panel lines up correctly. Interior comfort is non existent. "God this car sucks" is a common response from passengers.
The interior isn't holding up well. The cheap plastics on the radio buttons have worn through, so at night, you have stray lights shining everywhere. The radio display is out. It just feels, looks, and drives cheap. Gotta love the HAL display on the center stack.
While I don't know how anyone can see the GP as an attractive car outside and particularly inside (granted this is beating a dead horse as it has thankfully been put to pasture).
I'm not a Toyota fan, really! An 05 or current camry is a boring car that I have no desire to own. But when I drive my MIL's XLS v6, I'm consistently impressed with how smooth and refined it is and how well it is holding up and I understand why it sells so well. I love how smooth Toyota powertrains are in general.
No dice, not an option. She got stuck with this car as we were relocated and it was waiting for her back in 07 at her new office. '06 was the last time she got to chose her own car The options were an 06 Impala, Ford 500, and GP. She chose the 500 for it's generous room. She put 45k on it that year and it was a good car. Comfortable, fuel efficient, and reliable. It was a good boring sedan. IMO, eons better than her previous '01 Impala and '03 Taurus (god that car was the worst, just to slow with the ancient 3.0 vulcan v6).
She should be getting a new car in the coming months. Looks like her employer has dumped GM all together (all the new company cars I've seen lately are Fusions or Taurus's). I think she'll be getting a new Taurus, which I don't think she can complain about. It's far nicer than a current Impala, particularly considering she generally gets base models. And it will be a luxury car compared to the GP.
I've had nothing but GM's (well, one used Chrysler) as daily drivers since 1981. My GM's were all new cars. Besides wanting to buy American and almost always liking the styling better, I have enjoyed the number of dealers available (although not needed) and the treatment I have gotten from more than one Service Department...going beyond the warranty if it's the right thing to do. I read repeatedly about foreign car dealers having a 'take it or leave it' arrogance. I couldn't deal with that.
I don't know currently. One of her co-workers was due for a new car and he didn't get an option, a new Taurus was delivered to his office.
I really don't have a problem with a Taurus (Styling is okay IMO) Mainly, she only gets base models and a base Taurus is much better than a base Impala. Mainly because Ford's 3.5/6speed combo shames the 3.5/4speed in an Impala.
I've dealt with many dealers across several brands and IMO they all have good and bad. When I bought a new Nissan Pathfinder in '01. The dealer sold Jeep and Chrysler out of the same lot. I went there to consider a Jeep Liberty. Drove it, thought it sucked and bought the PF. I had to take the PF back once for a check engine light (bad O2 sensor) and service was great. They gave me a Liberty to drive for the day and I couldn't wait to get my PF back. That 3.7 v6 was intolerable compared to Nissan's VQ3.5 at the time, not to mention all the other ways the PF was vastly superior.
The only other foreign car I've owned was a VW and I guess I must be the only person to have something good to say about them, but the dealer was good too. Once again the dealer also sold Mazda and Volvo. I never had repair done, but at the time the oil changes were provided by VW for the first two years, so I took in there for oil changes and was happy.
Ironically, the worst dealer experience I've had was with Saturn of all places. My wife had a '92 Saturn SL2 that had two major issues (well she was my girl friend in college when she bought it). It burned oil (1qt/500 miles @ 50k miles) if driven short trips and it would occasionally jump out of 3rd gear (it had a manual trans) on occasion. They did an oil test and confirmed the oil consumption issue but wouldn't fix it under GM's extended powertrain warranty. They were adamant that a quart per 500 miles was reasonable oil consumption and they couldn't verify the jumping out of gear issue. The service manager told me maybe my wife didn't know how to property drive a stick. Well that really pissed me off because I told the jackass it happened to me several times too. But that is water under the bridge and that was our one and only Saturn.
Every W-body I've ever sat in has had a miserable back seat, but I always thought the Grand Prix was the worst! They're roomy enough up front, but the back is cramped and hard to get in and out. The trunk space is decent though.
Those old Chrysler LH cars were pretty roomy inside, although I always hated the front passenger seat in my Intrepid. There wasn't much legroom, and the floorpan wasn't very deep. With a power seat, you would be able to angle it further back for more comfort, but mine was just a base model.
Very true, the rear seat of the GP is basically useless except for short people or putting adults that you hate back there.
And I posted today, in part, to have the 10,000th post on this thread. Do I get a prize...?
I'm OK with the Taurus's design. I think if the choice is that or a Fusion I'd likely take the Fusion unless space was an issue.
grbeck - Congratulations. For the 10,00th post you get dieselone's wife's 07 Pontiac as soon as she turns it in!
Of course, in 25 years, we may look at the Grand Prix the way we look at a 1963 Studebaker Lark now.
I resemble that remark! I have a '63 Lark, and also a '64 Daytona.
For as little respect as Studes generally got, I remember once or twice looking at old Consumer Reports April Auto issues at Hershey and/or our college library (can't remember which at this late date), but I was pleased/surprised to see they were often rated as more reliable than the mainstream brands. I also remember seeing a CR where they tested '63 domestic compacts and they showed a picture of a guy with a hat climbing right into the front seat of the Lark, where getting into a Buick Special his hat came flying off!
LOL, I guess whatever it gets replaced with, but hopefully what that will be will be a more tolerable vehicle.
10,000 posts? I guess a new keyboard would be nice;)
Easy.
"American Car" means "Assembled in the USA by Americans".
Therefore, the Hyundai Sonata is domestic (to us), while the Mexican-built Ford Fusion is an Import.
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The 1960s Studebakers were reliable because, by that point, Studebaker didn't have the money to invest in new platforms or engines. The platform debuted in 1953, while the V-8 debuted in 1951. The six was a reworked version of an engine that debuted prior to World War II. Most of the bugs should have been worked out of them by that point, although the rusting front fenders were a feature right up until the bitter end.
Therefore, the Hyundai Sonata is domestic (to us), while the Mexican-built Ford Fusion is an Import.
I guess that depend on what one believes is an American car. If it's where it's built and parts content, then many foreign owed makes would be considered domestic.
That would rule out many vehicles from Ford and GM such as the Fusion, current Regal, Aveo, some GM trucks/suvs, and Fiesta etc.
Amazingly, I believe my '64 still has its original front fenders as the paint job is amateurish but the outer fenders are still welded to the inners--usually they got pop-riveted to the inners during replacement. My car spent the first half of its life in western PA and the second half in Wisconsin and has 103K miles. And no, the car doesn't have that Studebaker feature of a vertical stripe of rust at the rear of the front fenders. The '64 supposedly has "Aluminized Rustproofing", which I'm not sure made any difference or not.
On that note, the computer I'm typing from was assembled in here in my house. Is it a domestic product? The processor was made in the US anyway.
new intel factory
neat stuff
Growing up I remember when I was 8 the next door neighbor bought a new 1959 Studebaker Lark. I really wanted that car.
I always liked Wilbur Post's Studebaker on Mr. Ed.
I don't know what it was with the business end of Studebaker. They were in the car business from the very beginning, lost a bundle in the depression but got the great government reprieve that all the carmakers got by turning their factories into defense plants and started out the late 40s in reasonably good shape only to blow it all. Took Packard down with it.
From what I understand Studebaker made some bad business decisions regarding cash flow in the 50's, had some quality issues and had higher labor costs vs the competition. Sounds like another company that went bankrupt recently.
Though from what I've read, Studebaker didn't actually go bankrupt, but the board of directors decided to pull out of the auto business and was eventually acquired by other companies.
I know the closure of the South Bend plant led to a huge pension problem where many of those let go lost their pensions. This partially led to creating ERISA.
Uhhh... Check out BMW Assist...
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/BMWAssist/Default.aspx?enc=/eiUrYOZ- AxtXbrazY6tfkqsr3kYfdxLIjxkcwoIvvrzXecyap+lDtR12VruSnZ7PY51mqegzuOTcLL0vR68P2Wyx- l0MW6rbpWvP/5ior5oYfiz0hXmy8eKOPyCaNQ2F/
The old plant was still in the middle of South Bend as late as 2000. I've read that the city has started to demolish parts of it.
By that time, they had many non-auto-related divisions (Clarke Floor Machine, STP, Onan generator, to name a few) which were making money. The Service and Parts Division of Studebaker continued to operate out of South Bend, providing parts to authorized Studebaker Service Dealers, until the middle of 1972.
Of course, Avanti was bought by a South Bend Studebaker dealer who built it by hand until the early '80s; it then had a succession of owners since and is now defunct (finally).
No one in my family ever had a Studebaker, but I always admired what they did with what they had. I like their products better than AMC, generally, and I think prices of various models as collector cars bear out the appeal over AMC cars (only in general).
This resulted in plenty of stories about Studebaker shutting down its main U.S. assembly plant, which gave most people the impression that the company was quitting the passenger car business completely. But Studebaker simply said that it was going to build all of its cars in Canada, and there would no major changes in the cars from this point forward.
Sales dwindled to nothing, which meant that Studebaker didn't have to pay anything to the dealers, as it was still technically in the car business. It's just that few people wanted them, since they bore the "orphan" stigma, and there were no major styling changes after the 1964 model year. (And the 1964 models were hardly on the cutting edge of automotive style.)
The dealers left the company on their own. They really couldn't sue Studebaker - the company was still making cars, and would happily supply the dealers with all of the cars that they wanted.
The Studebaker name disappeared for good in the late 1970s, if I recall correctly.
The difference between GM and Studebaker is that Studebaker left the U.S. auto market when car sales were booming - 1965 set a sales record for that time, and sales were also very good in 1963 and 1964. Studebaker just didn't share in the good times.
GM went bust when car sales began tanking, even though GM had been losing money at an alarming rate since about 2001. It couldn't make money when car sales were very high, so a downturn in the market was enough to push GM over the edge.