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Lincoln MKS



  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490

    Town car was not built on panther til 1998? Really? Then they switched to the arch that the crown vic was using? Seems strange to me.

    The Mark was an upgrade from T-bird/Cougar, sure. Air shocks and bigger engine. Still, badge engineered. I'd give to 90s Mark say a 5 out of 10 for badge eng. I'd give the mks a 7.

    I think you know that the LS and the latest T-Bird share almost no relation to any Ford. The only exception being the V6 in the LS.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    No need to be sorry. A pre-order however does not equal a sale. You are free to preorder a car and then just not take delivery. I learned that when I decided I wanted to order an LS with manual transmission. I couldn't even find a dealer that would order the car for me, they being afraid that I would walk and they'd be stuck with a stick-shift Lincoln. And nobody wants a stick shift Lincoln right? (Seems a fair amount of folks want stick-shift CTS though?) I actually had to get the VP of Lincoln marketing to call a dealer and persuade them to order the car for me.
    I haven't seen the usual Ford sales chart for July. Does anyone have a link to it? That would answer the question.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,040
    Only 7 out of 10?

    What, exactly, is "badge engineered" other than the gauge cluster? Even the doors and greenhouse are different.

    I think you're confusing badge engineering with platform sharing again.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Gettin a little nit-picky are we? :D If u look in wikipedia and accept their definitions, platform engineering is when you make 2 different *kinds* of vehicles from the same basic platform. Eg a sedan and a CUV. Whereas badge engineering invlolves say 2 sedans made to look somewhat different and possibly having different engines or other hardware. ala Fusion/Milan/MKZ. I'd say the MKS fits with the latter definition rather than the former.

    Not having 'driven a ford lately', what does the MKS share it's guage cluster with?

    It'll be an 8 out of 10 when ecoBoost arrives on the mks and not on the montego or taurus.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Thanks for the ptr to that C&D review. Interesting stuff, particularly the admission that some of their reviewers would NEVER rate the Lincoln above ANY BMW! (Even the 1-series?) Suspicions confirmed?
    It was all in all a pretty favorable review. I cant help myself to remind that when the LS came out, it's initial reviews were extremely favorable - from 'darn near a beemer' to 'best American sedan ever' to Car of the Year. Those are 3 descriptions that will never be applied to the mks. But I digress (as usual).
    I did find a couple of things confusing - like how they say the MKR has an 'unforgettable face' and then in the Lows for the mks they say 'being seen behind that grille.' Pretty inane remark if u ask me. There are plenty of ugly mutha grilles out there, and this aint one of them IMHO. I like it. I like the looks of the mks, as Ive said before. And they loved the interior. I definitely need to sit in (and drive one) cause it just doesnt look that great to me n pictures. Must be a lot better in person.
    The power and handling described are about what I'd expect - no letters home. Interesting that they never mentioned the upcoming ecoBoost. They do say they plan a test and that the E-class will be one of the competitors. That'll be quite interesting. For the Lincoln to finish above last in a test with the E-class, 5 or 7 series, Infiniti M, ES-350 would be quite a feat, especially since it stickers a good $7000 below any of them.
    Lastly, WHY OH WHY do designers continue to do inanities like the "mail-slot" trunk opening??? As they said, what good is a big trunk if you cant even get a decent sized cooler in it. And rear seats that don't fold down? So last-millenium.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Sure, the Panther architecture was an integral part of the Town Car from 1980 on. Prior to that, Lincoln Continentals and Town Cars had their own chassis. However, the Town Car through 1997 avoided skirting with badge engineering by having a much more modified Panther base than it did from 1998 on. For example, the 1990-97 had much more interior width than a Crown Vic. Greenhouses, windshields and tumblehome were a completely different design. With the 1998 update, interior width shrank to CV size, and the CV style side tumblehome was adopted. Though the 1998 style change was a move forward stylistically, moving the whole car closer to a Crown Vic (with different body panels and rear roofline) was not.

    I also still think that the Marks and T-Birds sharing a chassis did not degrade Lincoln, as the T-bird was always the "step-up" Ford. The 89 - 97 T-bird may have had a lousy engine, but look at what the rest of the Ford line-up offered. Ford doesn't any longer offer a luxury-oriented car like the T-bird, so starting with a plebeian Ford and changing the front clip, rear styling and interior really didn't cut it. At least the Taurus to Continental conversions went to the length of giving the Continental a unique greenhouse and wheelbase, as well as the requisite front and rear styling change and engine upgrade. The Lincoln Mark VII and Mark VIII did not share one body panel with the corresponding T-bird, and they each exuded IMHO a different presence.

    Sort of like the current Taurus and MKS do. They should have given the MKS a couple more inches of wheelbase over the Taurus, and maybe then they would not have had to give the MKS less room in the rear (as they apparently had to do in order to reduce some of the lumpiness/dowdiness of the Taurus shape). Not to mention it would have looked better and less tippy with a bit more wheelbase.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    I guess you and I differ on what constitutes badge engineering v. platform sharing. I see things b-e like Fusion-Milan, Cobalt-G5, Aveo-G3, Crown Vic-Grand Marquis, Explorer-Mountaineer, etc., where it is the same body with some minor front clip and other trim differences...where it would be pretty easy for a body shop to make one into another by changing that trim. Ina another instance let me use a GM example, Grand Prix/Impala/Lacrosse (or Lucerne/DTS) were not badge-engineered jobs, because they went to the trouble of modifying basically everything you could touch to the point that no one would mistaken one for the other at any angle.

    Fusion-MKZ was dangerously close to badge-engineering in a way that, say, Accord and Acura TL were not. Taurus to MKS is not a badge engineered job. It is another instance of platform sharing, where two different sedans are produced from the same platform (rather than a sedan and a CUV in another case). Make sense?
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I think the Fusion, MKZ comparison is a little bit more than just badge engineering, but I agree with you on all the rest of your comparisons and points.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    WTF is a "tumblehome"?

    MarkVIII was a great car (I owned one) But even a casual observer could see it was based on the T-Bird. Dunno what engine the Bird had then. The Mark had 4.6L making 270hp standard. Thing flew and got 28mpg on hiway.

    If they had given the mks another 2 or 3 inches, perhaps the trunk opening could have actually been usable. I wonder how many sales they'll lose over that? My guess is a lot of people will be turned off by that trunk. BTW, does anyone know if it has ITH?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,040
    That's exactly what I was trying to say. Badge engineering means just slapping a new badge on something and changing the name.

    Fusion/Milan, Ranger/B-series, Escape/Mariner/Tribute, Taurus/Sable are all badge engineered. Minor cosmetic differences only.

    Fulan/MKZ - still a rebadge but not as bad - better engine, unique interior plus a few unique features.

    Taurus/MKS - not a rebadge at all. Every exterior panel is different, different suspension, engine, interior, etc. I assume the drivetrain is the same other than the engine plus other under the hood bits and pieces, but nothing you can see, touch or feel is shared other than a couple of switches maybe. TONS of features on the MKS but not the Taurus.

    Note I said platform sharing, not platform engineering. What Ford did here was start with the Taurus platform and then heavily modify it.

    Geor.....err.....Jeyhoe's problem is not that the platform is shared - it's that the shared platform is FWD. I'm sure if Ford had a capable GRWD platform underpinning both the Taurus and MKS that was performance capable with the same level of differentiation then it would be just fine and dandy.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    No not really. I'll stick with the Wiki on this one. Taurus/MKS is just a much better job of badge-engineering than one usually sees. Platform-sharing example is Taurus/Edge. (Unless, and pardon my confusion, the Edge is based on the last-gen Mazda 6 and not the last-gen Volvo S80 in which case the P-E is Fusion/Edge).

    Fusion/Milan is b-e to the max (2 or 3 out of 10), while Fusion/MKZ is a little better (4 or 5 max out of 10). All one man's HO.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,040
    OTOH if they'd given it the same trunk as the Taurus you'd be screaming that it was "badge engineered". So the trunk opening isn't as huge as it could be - what, exactly, won't fit?

    Not sure about the ITHs - they never bothered me anyway. Then again the prop rod under the hood of my Fusion doesn't bother me, either. Simple, cheap and effective.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Al ... errr ... akirby: What does the mks share it's guage cluster with???

    I dont have a problem (at least that's visible here). I'm just saying it's a rebadged Ford. I dont care that the body panels are different. It's a Taurus in disguise, just the same as the Sable is, only better. It's a nice disguise and it will fool some people. It's almost exactly the same as the current Joan Rivers is just a rebadged version of the Joan Rivers of the 80s. Take out the new body panels and there's Joan. The one that can still smile.

    And, you're wrong again, grasshopper. Just look at my previous message about 90's T-Bird vs Mark VIII - Both RWD and both just badge-engineered.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,040
    Wiki didn't say platform sharing HAD to be a different type of vehicle, only that it was an example. And how do we know YOU didn't write the wiki entry?? :P
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    I'm already saying its badge engineered. What are u talking about? See the C&D review - a 40 gallon cooler for one thing wont fit. See ANY review for complaints about the size of the trunk opening.

    What shares the guage cluster? I want more ammo! :P
  • docrwdocrw Posts: 94
    Not that this is really relevant to the general conversation, but just for accuracy's sake the TSX is the same car as the Accord sold in Europe. The European Accord is smaller than the US version and much sportier.

    As far as the rest of your Lincoln-oriented comments, no argument here. The MKS is a small step towards getting Lincoln back to respectability, not excellence, just respectability. If they follow through with the RWD-based MKR that will be their shot at excellence. What they need is for the MKS and MKT to establish a beach head in the entry/mid luxury segment and then keep moving upmarket with the MKR. That's why they need the MKS to be solid and flawless-not spectacular. It is a placeholder for them.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,040
    Ok, so the Stype and LS were also badge engineering, right?

    BTW - the MKS doesn't share the Taurus' greenhouse, so even if you stripped all the sheetmetal they're still different.

    So if Ford and Lincoln both need a full sized sedan, what is it you expect them to do, platform wise?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,040
    Not that I like giving you ammo, but I thought it was the same basic gauge cluster as the Taurus/Sable and very similar to the current Fusion. But I could be wrong.

    I don't think a 40 gallon cooler would fit in anybody's trunk........
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    WTF is a "tumblehome"?
    Probably by now an outmoded expression for the angle and curve of the sideglass/greenhouse into the shoulders/lower doors.

    The greater the curve and "fuselage" look, the more it tends to cut into the usable interior width. With the 1990 TC redesign, the side glass was more upright and the windshield wider than on the the 1998. Interestingly, the more slab-sided and formal looking 1990-97 TC was 2" more narrow than the 1998 TC, but still offered almost 2 MORE inches of shoulder room than the wider 98+.

    I am more than a casual observer of cars, but to my eye, the Mark VIII and T-bird shared little visually, other than general proportions. The 1972 to 1976 Mark/T-birds looked more alike to me, even though the Mark was the real looker among those behemoths.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    It bugged me every time I checked the oil or put in windshield washer fluid that my old Millenia--otherwise well equipped--forced me to go through that extra threading step every time I opened the hood, when my little VW or Audi did not.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Correct on the TSX (and the Euro Accord is not the American Accord, which explains my previous statement that the TSX is not based on the Accord) and agreed on the rest. Except that the MKS should be as spectacular as possible, just because they can't afford to keep bringing out cheap rebadges like the Mark LT and the Aviator. Even our own gregg said something like this applies to the mks. Personally, I dont agree. I think they did a great job of bringing the Taurus to Lincoln showrooms ( :P ) With only a couple of minor faults, the S is a terrific interpretation of the existing S-80 derivatives
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Wiki is wrong about this one. Badge-engineered and rebadged were terms that came into popularity back in the 1970ss and 1980s (and before, see for example the last Packards[Studebaker]) when you had brands filling out their line-ups by borrowing a model from a sister brand, and doing little more than changing the BADGING, and adding some chrome pieces.

    Canadian cars would often have different names on the exact copy of an American car. Or the Canadian Mercury pickup which was nothing more than the F100 with Mercury badges. The Merkur rebadge was a Ford Scorpio. The height of this was the Dodge Neon/Plymouth Neon.,.let's not even bother renaming the little sucker.

    Rebadging can be like the Fusion/Milan (some trim differentiation but nothing a body shop couldn't switch out in minutes), or it can be like taking an Opel from Europe and calling it a Saturn here. WIKI is getting b-e mixed up with platform sharing mixed up with platform engineering. Platforms are meant to be flexilbe and can spawn many sub-versions. Or you can use the exact same architecture under completely different bodies. But that is not a rebadge. Rebadge came from quick and dirty rebadging. Taurus to MKS is not that.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    "I don't think a 40 gallon cooler would fit in anybody's trunk........ "

    :blush: Got me there! Rechecked and article says 60 Quart

    I'll have to look at interiors to see if guage cluster borrowed. I seem to remember someone ragging on the mks because it had the same guages as a Focus. I figured that was BS, Lincoln would not borrow from a Focus, would they?
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    "Ok, so the Stype and LS were also badge engineering, right?"

    Yep. 10 out of 10!

    I dont wanna argue these definitions anymore. They is what they is. b-e, p-e, p-s whatever. One is 'based on' the other. If the other is a Jaguar, so much the better.
  • docrwdocrw Posts: 94
    I agree, Lincoln should shoot for spectacular. It just appears as though they have decided to go the Lexus route of solid and flawless (don't know if they've actually gotten to flawless yet) but did not add that dash of excitement that gets you to spectacular. I'm really hoping that the Ecoboost will deliver that. I'm looking for a larger sedan, that can seat an adult and two car seats in the back, for those times when we don't need the SUV and for my daily commute.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    "So if Ford and Lincoln both need a full sized sedan, what is it you expect them to do, platform wise?"

    Here's my idea. Go back to the future and do it like the S-Type/LS pair.

    IOW, design the best, strongest, most "luxurious" (or sportiest if desired) platform you can for the Lincoln. Then dumb it down and cheapen it for the Ford. As opposed to designing the cheap one first and trying to add-on.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Agreed. Borrow down, if you want to enhance a model in the lower brand. Or design the Lincoln first. Or like you say, do a pair like the Jag and LS. They look nothing alike and who is to complain if a Lincoln has Jag in it?
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    YEs, the C&D review said surprisingly that the mks is on par with the Lexus for interior quality. Well done Lincoln if true.
    EcoBoost will certainly get the car moving better. Try driving a naturally aspirated Subaru Legacy and follow that wth the turbo version for an idea :) Gas mileage, though, wont be much, if any, better and will almost certainly be worse if u dig into that turbo too much.
    An adult AND 2 car seats in the back??? Man, that's a big back seat. That is the exact reason I got a Navigator rather than an Aviator. Just could not seat 3 comfortably in the back of the Aviator. For this application: "Have you driven a Grand Marquis ... lately." ?
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    "and who is to complain if a Lincoln has Jag in it? "

    The Jag owners! :) :) Cant please everybody!
  • docrwdocrw Posts: 94
    That's funny what you said about the Grand Marquis, my father said the same thing, when I told him we were looking for a larger car. Its certainly got the size, but everything else about it is a bit lackluster (to be kind). Although it would be cool to put a roof rack on it and scare the hell out of speeders late at night :) Plus, it would be a hard enough sell to get my wife to buy a Lincoln, never mind a Mercury. She has an MBA and is obsessed with reliability and resale value, so most of the time we have gone the import route.

    The Navigator would be an option but our house is 60 years old and the garage just isn't tall enough. That's one of the many drawbacks of living in the Boston area. To be able to afford a house in a suburb with a decent school system means having to make sacrifices in certain areas.
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