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Now how would YOU like it if we told you:
"Stop crying because the automakers won't give you a stick with big engine sports sedans".
"If sports sedans with big engines and sticks were in high demand, then the automakers would MAKE them! They don't, so NOBODY wants them, DUH!"
"The automakers are SMART not to offfer no stupid big engined sports sedans with sticks, nobody wants that junk, which is why they sell in such small numbers!"
"Those of you who want a stick in a big engined sport sedan need to just accept an automatic or a manumatic. It's called progress, sticks are old, outdated technology! Grow up and get with the times!"
"You want a big engined sport sedan with a stick? Too bad. The manufacturers don't make that slow selling junk anymore, and good that they don't!"
Doesn't feel so good eh?
I don't exactly understand why you are making it personal, but to your point, the next differentiator, to me, is cost (after the availability of a manual transmission).
So if I can't get what I want, I am going to get the cheapest thing available that meets my needs (since I can't meet wants) and use the rest of the $$ for something else. Perhaps a 2nd car that does meet more of my wants, or another motorcycle.
You could definitely do the same, in your case it would be getting something like an MKS and then getting a Panther as well. You could get a used Police Interceptor GM for pennies on the dollar, and have the high performance goodies as well (although that might be counter to the cushy ride thing).
Building cars is a business and if they can't make enough money on a particular type of vehicle then they won't build it. It's really simple. I'm sure vinyl lovers felt the same way about the CD.
As far as making it on the F150 and Mustang alone, I think if you throw in the Crown Vic, a smaller full size, a new compact pickup, suvs big and small, a crossover or two, and a bigger midsize sedan, plus the commerical vehicles, that would be a smart business model for Ford to follow in North America. the big three are dead when it comes to compacts, subcompacts, and midsize cars below a certain size. The Fusion is great, the European focus is good too, but I think most North American buyers are just not willing to give the domestics the benefit of the doubt on those car types anymore.
The MKS is a good replacemet for the 95 to 02 Continental. People just hate it because it is not a BMW 5 series, and that is just plain silly. Lincoln buyers do not want a 5 Series and 5 Series buyers do not want a Lincoln.
As far as your Miata example goes, I know nothing about two seat roadsters being "Volume" sellers in ANY country. Sure they may be fuel efficient, but a small two seat car is simply not very usefull when it comes to utility, which is what MOST car buyers in every country are looking for. I know about microcars, subcompacts, and compacts being the volume sellers overseas, but I have NEVER heard that about two seat roadsters. And please note that although two seat roadsters are small sellers and not usefull for utility, I still believe that they should be made because some people just want a car for driving pleasure, and that is something that small two seat roadsters do well, so they do serve a purpose.
It's so easy to be condescending and matter of fact with all of this "Automaking is a business, it's really simple blah, blah" talk when it is a type of car/market that you have a bizarre hatred for being neglected, but when the shoe is on the other foot, ie people complaining because they cannot get manuals either at all or in a certain vehicle like big engined sports sedans, then the same "Logical" people are so full of sympathy. What a bunch of hipocracy.
And just for the record, I feel the same way about manuals - I'd like to see them built but I totally understand that there is no market for them and I don't blame the mfrs for not building them.
I also understand why the MKS was not built on a new RWD platform which would provide more power options and better handling.
And just to show that I don't always get what I want - I've been waiting several years for DirecTV to come out with new Tivo HD software for their receivers, but they chose not to continue their business relationship. It totally sucks but you don't see me getting all hot and bothered about something that I have NO CONTROL over.
If you would lose your BOF/Panther obsession long enough to try a modern unibody full size sedan I think you'll find that it's not quite as bad as you think. But then you'd have nothing to complain about.
Unibody has many technological advantages over BOF - mainly weight, crash worthiness and chassis stiffness. But then again you don't care so why bother?
I can't think of a car with a bench front seat. The Legacy can tow like 3k lbs, comes in a manual, has a good size trunk and doesn't seem to have any non-self induced drama. Oh and AWD.
I think the next generation of the Fusion is going to have substantially more towing capability (although it wouldn't take alot to improve from "not recommended") to be inline with European offerings.
If you want to just shrug your shoulders about the automakers not offering anymore something that you want, well that is your business and your choice, but just DON'T tell other people they should do the same thing. Over the years I have given the big three a good amount of my hard earned money, so I feel I have a right to chastise them for when they spit in my face this way.
I repeat, it is NOT your place to tell me "What obsession" to lose. If I like BOF Panther type cars, that is my business, end of story. Do I chastise/mock you for wanting manuals avaliable in big engine sports sedans or whatever kind of vehicle you want them in? NO. So why can't you give me the same respect? And for your information, I have owned over 30 vehicles, and many of them were unibody. I don't mind unibody for my subcompacts, compacts, midsizes, or minivans, but I DO prefer BOF for my big cars, pickups, and suvs. I have also owned some unibody big cars, and they can be nice, but I still PREFER my big cars to be BOF. That is not a crime no matter how much you try to mock or belittle me for feeling that way.
And you can try to insinuate that I want something to be upset about all you want, but that won't make it true. I was simply responding to the lame, tiresome hatred that you and your ilk are always throwing around at cars that you feel are not worth existing, as if you were the final authorities on what cars should and shouldn't exist, which you are NOT. Tell the WHOLE story instead of insinuating and making stuff up.
What I "Don't care" about, is how much you and your ilk hate BOF big cars for no reason at all. I will still like the vehicle type and support it. You guys hate that, but I don't care. That is how I feel, period.
It is fine to offer towing ability on cars the size of the Fusion, but they are not proper replacements for BOF, full size passenger cars, which were master towing vehicles. The only decent towing vehicles for sale now are pickups and suvs, but not everyone wants to drive a pickup or suv all the time. I am one of those people. I would rather have a passenger car as my most used vehicle that is versatile enough to do many tasks in the way of people moving and cargo carrying at once.
How? When you have the controlling pieces of a market, knowing of future issues/responsibilities and yet keep the controls in a way for your own rewards. Then you have the makings of greed (the gun) and are pulling the trigger (marketing). Since we have become a nation of choice and have what we want (not so much what we need), the auto companies were only to happy to oblige as long as it was their way. For years they knew of the maturing auto market. For years they knew what was coming when it came to oil, yet chose a different path. Honda knew it and based upon their history of surviving in Japan were better prepared for it than anyone.
If you ever have the time, check out the book Taken for a Ride : How Daimler-Benz drove off with Chrysler, by Bill Vlasic. In this book, you will see how the information they knew put fear in them to a point of self-annihilation. You do have it correct that I do hate SUV’s. Always did because I could not see their purpose beyond utility vehicles for commercial use. But like I said there is enough blame to go around. Some people could have ducked, some did, and one of them was I.
If you look at the last 4-5 months sales figures, I believe more people like the MKS than you may think. Calm down and realize that there are those who will always find fault, even in an angel.
I do think that if Ford were in better shape, it could offer more niche products, like the worldwide offerings of Toyota and VW Group for example. The Panther could be updated and would continue to sell in some quantity, but there is no money to play around with that now. Ford isn't even making any money on the F150 right now. Touch and go is what it is, and given the bleak economic situation, it will be interesting to see what part of Ford may survive.
The good news is you can continue to buy TCs and GMs for a few more years - just stockpile 2 or 3 of them. Pretty soon you'll be able to buy 2 for the price of just one MKS anyway.
As for the MKS, I think they dropped the ball with the car for two reasons. Number one, it is not a proper Town Car replacement in my opinion, and number two, if they think BMW or Mercedes or Japanese luxury buyers will consider it, they are kidding themselves. I like the MKS, but I think it makes more sense as a replacement for the 95 02 Continental, rather than as a Town Car substitute/Lincoln's flagship or an import luxury alternative. The LS was the car Lincoln should have stuck with to take on the luxury imports.
By the way, does anyone think the lack of a V8 option will hurt the MKS?
Curios, what cars/platforms is Ford actually making money on right now?
You can personally dislike Panthers all you want, just please stop telling other people they shouldn't either and cheerleading Ford for neglecting the platform and those of us who like it.
Well, as I said before, I will continue to buy Panthers for as long as I continure driving.
Instead, they kept buying other car companies (later unloaded at a loss), and even their full redesigns ended up looking for all the world like mere mid-cycle refreshes. It wasn't just the Panthers that got short shrift. The Ranger was sorely neglected. The Taurus Explorer, Expedition, and Navigator were top sellers in their classes and responsible for much of Ford's growth in the late 90's, allong with the F150. It is almost criminal what they did to the Taurus. Thank goodness for the 2010. They are STILL using the same body on the Nav (with front and rear clip changes...well, gee, it worked for the Panthers for a lot more years!).
Ford has a new business plan and some good products coming or already here. But they messed up big time first, and then the recession hit. I think it is remarkable they have not thus far needed government funds to go on from day to day. But they did start their turnaround plan before all the markets went south, so that has helped a bit. But I still wonder where Ford would be today had they not ceded the mid-size market they dominated to Camry and Accord with their belated and weird 1996 Taurus (and even more bland 2000), if they had kept the Explorer fresh and relevant, if they had tried for higher gas miieage sooner, if they had continued to update and develop their rear drive platforms, if they had given us the world Focus and so on.
Woulda coulda shoulda. The old BOF is dead, but that does not mean there never could have been a high tech replacement capable of being and doiong all the things you wanted from a big car. Big SUVs could have been made more relevant by now too. It would have been nice to see an Interceptor on the road. But it ain't gonna happen. I hope they make it. The history of the American auto is littered with deceased models which used to be on top. It takes more knowhow than I have to anticipate market changes enough to keep a vehicle on the best seller list. Ford almost killed king Mustang more than once with overwrought design, mediocrity, unreasonably long product cycles, and so on. Some of this is just sheer damn luck.
Incidently, Mopar moved most of their cars away from BOF way back in the 60's. What is now killing BOF and the V8 is fuel efficiency. I expect they will only be on full size trucks soon. I also think the industry is backstepping from RWD for much the same reason. So like someone said already, if you want those things in a car better grab it now unless you can afford an expensive low volume luxury car in the future.
Truthfully, I think with today's technology you might be hardpressed to tell a RWD BOF from a FWD unibody if you didn't know what you were driving except perhaps in a sports car.
My parents have never had a V8 car in their lives. I haven't, nor have my siblings. I don't think its a requirement for most car buyers, even in luxury segments. Come to think of it, my grandparents didn't have V8s since the Regal and Grand Prix went FWD. They had that 3800.
I grew up around 4 cylinder imports (and some European I6s) and never went wanting for a V8. It just wasn't an issue for me, then or now.
I have always had V8 daily drivers - except for my '90 T-bird with a supercharged V6. Based on the torque curve of the Ecoboost and the "test drive" that is on U-tube, I think the Ecoboost will make us V8 fans forget all about the desire for a V8.
I came close to getting an MKS last summer but declined primarily because I didn't like the base V6. I will likely order an Ecoboost MKS without even driving one first.
The gas prices last summer may have helped make the V6 MKS more desirable that it would have been with the Yamaha V8 which was in the original concept. I do think, however, the the twin turbo V6 will pull in more buyers like me who expect a near-luxury car to have a powertrain that is more special than a mainstream mid-size sedan.
Thanks for your future cooperation.
Joking aside, point taken. Have a nice one :shades:
Once again, you are suggesting that your OPINION is FACT, which it is NOT. I think that a BOF car can be high tech, there is no reason it can't be. It can have an IRS, four wheel disc brakes, traction control, and a million other innovations.
It is NOT fact that unibodies are better than BOF designs at stiffness and crash protection. There is your BOF hatred talking again. Why can't you just let it go? You are NOT going to get me to subscribe to your biased views.
BOF seems to work just fine for full sized pickups and SUV's. Could they make a very nice state of the art full sized BOF car? I am sure they could. Personally, it doesn't matter to me. I am looking at the car, not the BOF vs unibody issue alone. I also do not need to tow a trailer anymore.
I feel some empathy for carfanforever, since I too feel that I have been slighted here. This discussion does not need to get personal.
We all have different driving styles. We tend to drive within the comfort zones of our cars. So, when I drive my TC, I corner in a way that is comfortable. Thus, I am not concerned at all about any "boaty" tendency. Now when someone says they would like to see a manual transmission option in a MKS size car with a V8, then I suspect that this person would have a very very different style of driving from what I would ever have. This is fine. We will for the most part be looking at different cars. But since the MKS is the biggest Lincoln currently offered, I am here along with a lot of people with different driving styles. I should not have to feel slighted because of this.
I probably shouldn't be doing anything to continue tis conversation though.... Hey remember the MKS?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB0araA0T_k
To its credit, Ford has since engineered a lot more safety into the 2004 and up F150. But it did add significant weight as well.
BTW, I own one of these trucks and still like it a lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eldEld3hA
and the MKS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRO0TQCd64w
Gregg, go to the TC forums, and see what is said about the TC and crash safety in the advertisements for it on the side. Also, Police cars and Taxis are subject to tons of abuse and are subject to all kinds of crashes, yet both Police car and Taxi buyers swear by the Panther, over newer unibody designs like the Charger, 500/Taurus, and Impala. Why is that? Also, take a look at some of the other Panther crash test Youtube videos (As did I) and the comments that follow them. I think you will find them interesting to say the least.
It really is apples and oranges. You say toMAYto and I say toMAHto. It does not hurt my feelings, pick my pocket or break my back if you prefer a BOF car, I just don't know of one that is as safe as some of the new models out there. I get that that is not your top priority when buying a car. Obviiously it was not my top priority when I bought the F150 I still have.