To a degree you might be correct. However very few sub compacts will give you the seating a bigger vehicle will. When I first give up my RamCharger I decided to get a Saturn SL-2. It had 4 doors, a multi cd changer, ac and a few other options. However well it drove the seating was not like the RamCharger. My wife loved the car because she didn't like driving a vehicle like the Ram when she felt it took up the whole lane. However in less than two years the car was just too small for my needs. The second car was a SC-1 and even smaller. I moved into the PT because I wanted more room. I replaced the SC with my Wife's ZTS. Both cars work well for us but I like the PT the best because of the room. I can haul my whole Drum kit plus two congas' and a Djimbe and the stands. I could commute with the ZTS I suppose but my wife is up on the mountain all day and she likes how easy it is to sip around these mountain roads with. I think we are fairly typical of our friends and neighbors and very few of them drive sub compacts. Now if I had a sub compact as a second car I might be able to live with it. I agree that most days I would only use the kind of room a Metro or Sprint would use but the two days a week I move the hand drums to practice and our friday night gig I would have to have another car. I know you have a second vehicle so I know you can see my point.
Two car families are pretty common in my area but I wonder if the Sub compact isn't pretty limiting for one car families? If all you do is go back and forth to work maybe it wouldn't matter but if you have just about any hobbies our weekend interests it would seem you would limit yourself in what you could do with your car. Going out to dinner with friends isn't bad in the ZTS even. But one of my employees has a Echo and I can tell you four full sized men are pretty cramped for any trip of any distance. After lunch not many are willing to ride with the Echo driver on the trip back to the plant. So once again I feel the sub compact and the mini cars you often refer to will have limited appeal to the majority of drivers. The xB has lots of room, but I wouldn't ride in one to a dog fight, my opinion of how that vehicle looks is not a secret and I know people that love theirs. I just believe they make a H3 look sleek.
So if I were asked what is wrong with these sub compacts I would simply say, room and to a degree power. But then my Company car is a Crown Vic. It takes two small cars to push me in and out of a parking space and and anchor to stop in a hurry.
"Two car families are pretty common in my area but I wonder if the Sub compact isn't pretty limiting for one car families?"
Outside dense urban areas like San Francisco and Manhattan, are there really any one-car families anywhere in America? Certainly in your native SoCal, boaz, there aren't (as a broad generalization). I lived there for almost a decade.
Now, I have personal experience with two-car families - most of my friends qualify. And in every case, one car is the commuter that just sits on the weekend - an illusion of freedom and spacious versatility that in reality just sits around or gets used as a solo commuter. The other car (usually the bigger one) is the one that gets driven the rest of the time.
Given that is the case, why make the second car a midsize sedan? Why make it an SUV? A much smaller car will do the trick and be more fun into the bargain.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
yes, I have often thought of your suggestion and may head that direction, eventually.
I'm working in the Allied Health field but have a lot of passion for Kia. You are spot on.
I think that part of what's exciting now is the move towards subcompacts as a valid alternative, fueled (pardon the pun) by the high ghastly prices and environmental concerns as well. There are some interesting new small-size choices coming in the upcoming months for automobile consumers that warrant a serious look.
There's a little couple of cars coming from Brazil called Obvio! in another year that, IMO, are not intended to be novelty cars but are micro-sized cars that provide stellar gas mileage and parking and steering radius alternatives.
I've always been a fan of small cars and it's just exciting to see them being manufactured now as smart choices for people. Watch the car purchase trends occur in the upcoming months as ghastly creeps nastily higher and higher and the time comes once again for road trips.
Big, wide open road trips in the West.
Whoo-hoo! :P BTW-go Seahawks! I can't wait for the Big Enchilada coming up!
You will see a Seahawks victory in the Super Bowl for the first time.
Go to poorer areas. My parents fit a family of five into a Tercel for a number of years by necessity. I don't me to say anyone should do that, but it worked out alright. Now we have a few cars, and I just moved this week and used the CR-V that I got my mom. Man... it gave me a new appreciation for large vehicles. It's shaken my desire for a Miata or something similar.
Much of what you posted is the point I was trying to make. Sure people can make do with a sub compact but even in your family it was something to move out of or up from. Once they were in the position they bought vehicles like the CR-V. Once you had the opportunity to drive something bigger than a sub compact, or at least use something bigger, it made you realize that size does matter.
Nippon, The real problem for sub compacts is perception and optional use. The advantages of having a sub compact almost evaporate when you don't live in a major metropolitan area like San Francisco or LA. Even in LA street parking is limited so you are forced to use a parking lot and except for the most massive of vehicles parking is pretty easy with the marked spaces and all. If you look at carlisimo's post you see the attitude that has kept sub compacts from becoming a driving force in the auto industry. People think of them as something to put up with if they have to. But once they are free from whatever restrictions they feel caused them to get a sub compact they are ready to move up. After all the years people have demonstrated this trend how do you propose the manufacturers can turn the buying public's mindset around today when they have failed to do so for so many years?
Much of what you posted is the point I was trying to make. Sure people can make do with a sub compact but even in your family it was something to move out of or up from. Once they were in the position they bought vehicles like the CR-V. Once you had the opportunity to drive something bigger than a sub compact, or at least use something bigger, it made you realize that size does matter.
Nippon, The real problem for sub compacts is perception and optional use. The advantages of having a sub compact almost evaporate when you don't live in a major metropolitan area like San Francisco or LA. Even in LA street parking is limited so you are forced to use a parking lot and except for the most massive of vehicles parking is pretty easy with the marked spaces and all. If you look at carlisimo's post you see the attitude that has kept sub compacts from becoming a driving force in the auto industry. People think of them as something to put up with if they have to. But once they are free from whatever restrictions they feel caused them to get a sub compact they are ready to move up. After all the years people have demonstrated this trend how do you propose the manufacturers can turn the buying publics mindset around today when they have failed to do so for so many years?
The real problem for sub compacts is perception and optional use. The advantages of having a sub compact almost evaporate when you don't live in a major metropolitan area like San Francisco or LA.
Not always, especially as a second car a sub compact still has its advantages in rural America. I know one couple in southern IL where he works about 50 miles or so from home so the gas savings in a sub compact is pretty good for him.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
tomorrow. I'll sit in an xA and report back on how well I fit!
As for poor people, I notice that many of them tend to buy whatever they can find that is cheap and available, usually regardless of size. Most of the people I've known would have something like a truck or a big, old car.
Something like a late 70's Olds Ninety Eight would run on forever, be cheap to fix (or jerry-rig if you had to) and would be good for 4 or 5 minor accidents before it was too shot to use. A smaller car might still be reliable, but often not as cheap or easy to fix, especially if FWD and newer, and often it just takes one light hit to send it off to the junkyard.
Last time I was in Brazil, I saw tons of those little min-vans made by Hino (japan?). they appeared to be about haldf the size of a VW microbus, and VERY narrow-sort of a motorized coffin. Anyway, were these heaps ever exported to the USA? I'd wager that somebody would buy them..they probably deliver over 40 MPG 9although they probably would not survive a crash with a bicycle.
You do have a good point. I have seen many old Detroit Mastodons with obvious rear end of even front end damage still driving down the road. With small cars and the crumple zones one hit and you have major damage. Yes it helps protect the passenger and that is a great thing. The car however needs major work if it isn't declared a total. When my son was in High School I got him one of the early Honda Civic SI hatchbacks. He managed to bounce off of the rear bumper of one of his friends F-150. Didn't look that bad but to fix the honda we had to get a whole new front end clip.
I think another thing that hurts sub compacts is that even with a pretty low buy in price they have to compete with a lot of low mileage used Accords and Camrys. After all there are so many of them made they are pretty easy to find used. Today you can get financing for a low mileage used car pretty close to what you get for a new car so why settle for a sub compact when you can get a two year old Accord or Camry with many years of life left. And the Accord and Camry will be a lot more comfortable. With the 4 banger they get pretty good fuel mileage as well.
By comparison, the xA has all of that for less money. In a couple of months you will be able to get a Yaris, essentially that xA with updated looks, and for $11K ($12K in the sedan) it will have A/C and a radio, something Honda can't seem to manage at $14,9 in the Civic DX.
With side airbags and radio added, xA runs a price tag of $14.3K (and from what I have heard, that THE price, unlike in case of other cars where you could negotiate, usually down to listed invoice which is often 8-9% below MSRP). But thats another story.
But more importantly, the bottomline is that xA and Yaris would compare to Fit, NOT Civic. Why not compare Civic to Corolla (just built a Corolla CE 5MT with abs, side airbags/side curtain airbags and no other option to carry an MSRP of $16K).
Fit is supposed to offer more features at a price that is less than Civic LX.
why make the second car a midsize sedan? Why make it an SUV? A much smaller car will do the trick and be more fun into the bargain Exactly. And that is why my second car is a Civic EX instead of an Accord LX. And my wife always appreciates the 7-8 mpg higher fuel economy to go with it (city driving which is where our cars spend most of their time).
Today you can get financing for a low mileage used car pretty close to what you get for a new car so why settle for a sub compact when you can get a two year old Accord or Camry with many years of life left. And the Accord and Camry will be a lot more comfortable. With the 4 banger they get pretty good fuel mileage as well.
If one is okay with a used car (2-3 year old), they could as well choose a 2-3 year old used compact/subcompact car.
As for gas mileage, while I agree not all subcompact/compacts seem to beat a few of the midsizers, many do. I've a great pair at home. For comfort, Accord is out there, for commuting and doing little things around the house, Civic does its job well.
Yes, but the point that was being made was people tend to look at Sub Compacts as something to start with and then move on. If they wanted a sub compact in the first place there would be no need to look at a used Accord. I contend people would rather have a bigger vehicle than a sub compact. It isn't just here but has been that way for a very long time. The example carlisimo made was pretty mainstream in reality. A sub compact is fine for commuting but for weekends you need a second car. However if you can afford it why not move up to a compact or midsize car for the comfort and equipment? People have a tendency to think in terms of style or even peer pressure. The Civic is not in the same sub compact class we are talking about, at least at this point. Even the Civic is bigger than it used to be so one must ask why if Honda felt a need to build the Civic and even the Accord larger what would would make a new Small class viable now when they could have simply left the Civic as small as the new proposed sub compact class? Something made them enlarge the Accord to the size we see today. I contend it was consumer demand and that demand isn't likely to change willingly. Just my opinion.
"But more importantly, the bottomline is that xA and Yaris would compare to Fit, NOT Civic. Why not compare Civic to Corolla"
The original poster was trying to assert that for about the same price (given equivalent levels of feature content), you might as well just buy the Civic instead of the subcompact, be it Yaris, Fit, xA, whatever. I was trying to point out that this is nothing like true. There is in fact a $3K difference between some of those models. To lots of buyers, that is a meaningful amount of money.
boaz: the points you are making are predicated on the notion that "bigger is better" - apparently you have accepted this as fact, as so many Americans have. I can't argue with you when you say that subcompacts have a tough row to hoe in the U.S. because "bigger is better" is so ingrained here. I can only rail against this notion, which may be true for some buyers but is FAR from a truism. Bigger is worse in many ways.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well... the Tercel was certainly something to move up from. Cheap cars always are. And for a family, a subcompact as an only car isn't a great idea.
But not everyone has a family, and not all subcompacts are cheap. I think there are a few ways to build subcompacts: 1) cheap, 2) sporty/sports car, and 3) trendy (hybrids or styling). I'd like to move towards category 2 in the next few years. If I have a family, I'd probably move towards upscale compacts.
I'm part of a small group, I admit that. I hope I still have options when it's time to buy a car. But when most people ask me if they should get a new Accent or a used Accord, I find myself recommending the Accord.
Nippon and I aren't that far apart on this discussion. And to tell the truth you and I aren't either. The used Accord verses the Accent is simply one example. I have always understood the theory part of Nippons stand. But I deal with people every day and in many cases in a one on one situation. America is a "very" long way from ever looking simply on a buy what you "need" basis. Very few people ever think of getting a vehicle for the 90 percent of the time driving needs. They think about that 10 percent when they might need something more. The example of taking friends out to dinner or a movie. Picking the relatives up from the airport. Moving like you mentioned. All come into play when someone is looking for a vehicle. But we don't dream about doing the mundane we dream of vacations and the afore mentioned outings with friends.
When we read the Edmunds review of the Spectra and they praise it yet make statements like, "it isn't an exciting car to drive." they have to add, "but it does what it was designed to do." All most people remember is the unexciting part. If people ever settled on getting only what they needed and nothing more all our houses would be smaller. Everyone would be wearing Timex watches. we would always shop for the generic foods in stores and we would all buy our shoes at payless. Yes we might be better off but that doesn't account for our desires and feelings that we have worked hard to improve our life style individually and people feel they have earned more comfort, more power, more status. Something a Sub Compact isn't likely to provide.
Yes Nippon, I have decided that people aren't going to change.
For years, I believed that smaller cars wouldn't sell in the US because of the sheer distances that exist in this country. In Europe, many people use rail to travel from one place to another, whereas in the States, we might drive or fly.
I've read both Car and Top Gear magazines for some time, now and have looked with envy at some of the vehicles offered there that aren't available here.
I understand that the economic environment (specifically, the cost of gas) makes these smaller cars more attractive. In the US, historically low gas prices means that folks spend less of their income on transportation and therefore buy a larger car/truck/SUV/minivan.
boaz, I agree with you that most folks here buy a car based on perceived need, not actual need ... and let's not even bring 'prestige' into the discussion.
Now, and maybe this is due to my advancing age (early 40's) and maturity, I believe that most folks could probably get by with something smaller than what they have currently.
When I was a kid .... sheesh, I wish I had a dime for every old timer who started out a story with that phrase. However, think back one or two generations. No minivans, and the trucks and "SUV's" of the time were predominantly commercial vehicles - who bought a Blazer or Bronco in 1975 unless they used it for it's intended purpose (off roading, towing, etc.)?
Families drove cars, darnit, and there were different models of cars for different needs. Heck, my family of four had a VW Squareback and a Toyota Corona as the family vehicles for most of mine and my sister's childhood.
My point is, most families are two-income, with two vehicles. One is probably only used during the week as a commuter. Why does it have to be any bigger than a sub-compact or compact? That doesn't mean that it can't be nice - A/C, cruise, power everything, a decent stereo, keyless remote, alloy wheels and ABS are pretty much available (even as options) on most cars.
Leather? Can be added to just about anything for a grand.
Nav? Buy an aftermarket unit and move it between vehicles.
RES? Same as above - buy aftermarket for the kids.
Five years ago we started to think about down-sizing from several years of Chrysler minivans and pickup trucks. Currently, my son is in college, driving a Hyundai Accent hatchback that I bought new in 2002. My wife, just retired, is driving a 2001 Honda CR-V we bought new when we down-sized. I am driving a 2005 Kia Spectra5. We no longer need a bigger vehicle. There is no sense in hauling around more metal than we need. We just wanted something small with useable interior room. Performance is quite adequate. What I've liked about these vehicles is the amount of standard equipment packaged with trim levels. Simplifies the buying process.
Yes, but the point that was being made was people tend to look at Sub Compacts as something to start with and then move on.
In some cases, they do, and in other cases, they don’t. However, those that do are likely to step up eventually depending on their experiences. Now imagine if we didn’t have any choice.
I contend people would rather have a bigger vehicle than a sub compact.
We could make a similar argument that some people would rather have a new vehicle than used. Once again, things aren’t as cut and dry to assume people make choices only in one way or the other. It is usually a nice mix.
A sub compact is fine for commuting but for weekends you need a second car.
Like a minivan? Because, if weekends involve family trips, not even cars like Civic and Corolla make much sense.
Personally, the only issue I would have with small cars (at least those that are currently available) is refinement. If automakers could find a way to fix that issue, I wouldn’t mind having a sub-compact myself, as the only car. If I needed something larger, I could always rent one (something as big as I need it to be)
The used Accord verses the Accent is simply one example.
If we have that example, how does Hyundai manage to sell even one unit of Accent? The answer is quite simple people go buy it, and don’t always prefer “used values” over “new car”.
BTW, I believe Honda is limiting Fit sales to something like 50K units in the first full year. Do you think they will be able to meet that target (if indeed true)?
I would never buy a sub-compact. Until a few months ago our driveway had 3 trucks, 2 F150's and a Ranger. I drove a '95 Supercab, My sons's is a'99 supercab and my wife drives the '95 Ranger. I abused my truck to the point I needed a new vehicle so I got an Outback wagon. My wife is still confused about me wanting a wagon instead of another truck (Another story). I could not imagine not having a full size pick-up. The Subie is as small as I would ever go. Even a small pick-up although seats 2 is more useful in my opinion (Remember my opinion, not fact)
Personally, the only issue I would have with small cars (at least those that are currently available) is refinement. If automakers could find a way to fix that issue, I wouldn’t mind having a sub-compact myself, as the only car. If I needed something larger, I could always rent one (something as big as I need it to be)
Well, it is probably more compact than sub compact, but this is why I want to check out an Audi A3 soon.
It is also why I keep harping on GM figuring out a way to bring a Kappa hatch to market.
Motor Trend just tested shiploads of new 2006 cars and the 2006 Kia Rio5 out-braked and out slalomed the 2006 Audi A3. The Kia Rio5 rings up to a grand total of about $14,195 and the Audi A3 totals up to around $33,000, according to the Clodsumer Retorts I read at the library in Pocatello, ID, last night. I favor the looks of the new Rio, too. Regardless of financial success or fortune or the particular job flavor of the time, I will always favor the small car.
The 60's were great with the '65 Mustang and '62 Chevy Nova. Subcompacts are so cool because of the closeness of the cab. I love the buzziness of the engine and the lights of the dash, the stereo right there within easy reach and the competency of the Kia brand makes me feel safe, secure and always having fun. BTW-Kia offers a 12-month, 12,000 mile Warranty on the OEM tires now and they've always given you a toll-free telephone number to call if you break down. Anywhere. You can even get reimbursed for your food and hotel costs while you're waiting for repairs. These new Kia's are so Warrantied-up that everything is taken care of, but I know I won't need the help. At least, I have the help if I need it but most likely won't. I like that being sold to me with my new Kia, and I have used the Long-Haul Warranty before a couple times. It does help that both of the Kia dealers I've had work on my two Kia's, Jerry Smith Chev-Buick-Kia of Burlington, WA, and Youngblood Kia of Springfield, MO, have been straight-shooters and honest and up-front with me. The mechanic I chose in Rolla, MO, to do my 60,000 mile service was great, too. I always get my Kia's serviced per the service manual and keep the receipts. It pays off later to do that, don'tcha'know. The reason I mention the fine service I've received is that that is a huge part of one's happiness with a carmaker. I need to feel that I'm being dealt with honestly by my dealer's service department. And I'll tell ya what dudes, keeping up on your car's particular mechanicals, how they work and the whole nine yards goes a long ways towards being dealt with honestly by your mechainc, or, in the case of a Kia dealership's service department, your mechanics, plural. You're gonna have a few of them if you take it into your Kia dealer, but I am very impressed by them so far. They know their Kia product and they keep your Kia running optimally for you. But you have to show interest, be informed and insist on knowing what's going on each and every step of the way, cyber auto-enthusiasts. To me it's part of a labor of love. When I hear that there's Kia Sephia car clubs in South Korea it warms my heart with a knowing glow. Just as much as a glow as the glow I get inside when contemplating the Seattle Seahawks upcoming success against the Pittsburgh Steelers on February 5th, 2006. I can't wait to taste Seahawk victory that day. I can feel the victory, dudes, Hasselbeck, Jeramy Sevens, Shaun Alexander and Holmgren and the crew will systematically disect the Steeler machine to the point the so-called pundits will have to whack thier selves on the sides of their collective heads and go, "Whoa, they really are good, aren't they?"
I love the Pocatello library because I can read Car and Driver and Motor Trend and, against my better instincts, I sucker myself into reading Clodsumer Retorts. Those stupid little circles with their "Recommended" or "Good" or "Unreliable" stamp on it. I saw so many Honda ads in there that I realized finally why Clodsumer Retorts is so friendly to Honda in their reviews: Honda pays them buckloads of cash to write nice things about them in there. Guess what new rigs Clodsumer Retorts loves? You guessed it-the whole new slew of Civics! After nearly barfing I picked up a decent dose of reality and read a Car and Driver magazine.
No, the 2006 Kia Rio5 and Kia Rio LX sedan are gonna be an absolute ball to test drive in what just amounts to about one more week! I'll be armed with my College Degree and my 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 title in hand, looking to take advantage of Kia's Owner Loyalty $500 discount and their $400 new college grad rebate. I still see the Silver LX and the Sapphire Blue LX 4-door sedans on the Robert Allen Kia lot here in Pocatello and the Kia Rio5 in Tropical Red. I may just have to have the leather-wrapped steering wheel the Rio5 offers standard.
BTW-I would have the first 2006 Kia Rio5 or 2006 Kia Rio LX in Pocatello, ID. I have yet to see a single new Rio on the streets of this city of 50,700 people. I did, out of the corner of my eye, see a 2006 Kia Rio LX 4-door sedan in the Silver color at a rental car place. It was not, BTW, the same Silver Rio for sale at Robert Allen Kia. So, if Silver grabs my fancy that day about a week from tomorrow, I can still trade for it.
I'm favoring the Sapphire Blue LX sedan for those keeping tabs.
that on the last page of the Consumer Reports they are willing to sell you guides to try and get your best new car deal. The same advice we get here on Edmunds if we seek it out, at no cost to us, though.
I won't go into that a great deal.
I am pretty sure it was Honda ads in the Consumer Reports magazine (brand new) I read last night in the library. If somebody can prove that wrong or verify it is true for us would they please chime in here? Appreciate it!
They were literally gushing praise for the new Civic lineup from Honda Motor Company of Japan. Imagine that.
in Consumer Reports. It is published by Consumers' Union, a non-profit. Among all those magazines you read, they are also the only ones that BUY every car they test, rather than being loaned a car out of the automaker's press fleet (thereby avoiding influence on the carmaker's part).
It sounds like CR doesn't like the Rio that much? ("stupid little circles...Unreliable stamp") Or did they dig it? No-one could dig Kias as much as you, iluv! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
may have a great warrentee. They might be cheep. But still you have a Kia and you have the car rated at the bottom of the JD powers dependability list. One person having good luck with a kia hardly gives many of us the desire to toss out all the warnings that a true dependability test by a major automotive source might give us. That is not the problem with Honda, Toyota, or even Buick. A great warrentee doesn't do you much good if your car is in the shop or if you have to take it in to get it fixed more often than others cars. If someone were trying to convince a buyer to take a chance on a Sub Compact it would hardly seem prudent to advocate that they give up their perfectly dependable Accord or Camry mid sized vehicle for a sub compact of questionable dependability. You have to admire someone that is willing to toss out all this information in a damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead attitude. But then when someone asks someone else to trust them when giving a glowing report of a vehicle that has been at the bottom of the dependability ratings for so long you have to question their motives. At least if someone were talking about a Scion you would have Toyota dependability going for you. Not all Toyotas will be perfect we know but they have a track record. Maybe recommending a new Honda sub compact would be reasonable. But asking someone to give up a mid sized vehicle or even a full sized vehicle for one rated at the bottom of the dependability barrel is taking a big chance on turning a lot of buyers off.
Before I bought my wife her ZTS I test drove a Mazda P5, Honda Civic a Kia Rio and even a Neon. The Kia was the least expensive. But it also felt the least expensive. If initial cost is your number one priority maybe the Kia is a good example of a Sub Compact. But I sure wouldn't pick one over a Mazda 3, Civic, Focus or even a Cobalt or Sentra. I wonder how many would? It doesn't sound like subscribers to CR or JD Powers would.
drive, boaz, I have found both of my Kia's to be solid, dependable rigs. Especially the Sportage 4x4, which got me out of an icy situation last night. In Pocatello, Idaho, there is a very large bridge that goes over an industrial area around mid-town. Down below is part of Pocatello's vast railroad empire, it being about the 6th largest switchyard in the Western region. Also down there is a private auto salvage yard that is absolutely huge. I have never seen so many wrecked rigs in my life!
Anyhoo, last night it was snowing, and I started up that incline on the west end of the bridge, heading eastbound. It is a decent incline, probably something around 15% or so. I was in 2WD, rear wheel drive. The road surface was compact snow and ice. Up I went, around 100 yards or so, then my wheels started slipping.
After a few seconds of that I simply put on my brakes (after checking that no one was behind me, of course)and slipped the differential into 4WD. As is always the case, the Kia automatic hubs engaged and I was in 4WD as quickly as it takes a Matt Hasselbeck pass to whizz over a Pittsburgh Steeler middle linebacker's head. Up the bridge I drove and back down the other side.
I have also found another benefit to buying a Kia motorcar. My maintenance costs are insanely low. As I have pointed out before my OEM Hankook SUV tires went 102,000 and still had tread left on them! All I have ever done is regular maintenance on the small SUV. I have never even needed to replace a single lightbulb!
When a person is treated like that from his motorcar and motorcar company and motorcar dealer, I must conclude that this maketh good sense. It maketh such good sense that I must seeketh no other way to buy.
So I will buy another Kia in a week or two. And I will continue to receive the very best value automotively on the planet.
BTW-Hyundai is a fine manufacturer of motor vehicles, too, but even they don't have Kia's fine skill of designing car bodies. Kia does it best.
Enjoy watching Seattle dismantle the 'uge Steeler warship next Sunday.
hey, man, I just threw that one in there to make sure you were paying attention. Nothing like some funky British talk to add to an exciting Kia enthusiast's post, eh?
And by adding "eh?", I pay homage to our friendly neighbors to the north, who also share their love for their automobiles regularly on this website.
Especially the 2007 Toyota Yaris, huh, nippononly?
That I agree blindly with my friend Nippon but this time we are 5 by 5 as they say. Hyundai owns Kia so I am sure they know "exactly' how kia builds their car. Kia has to tell them about every move they make. Much like Chevy would have to let GM know. If you are having such good luck with your Sportage I am happy for you. It does nothing my old 85 Sammy wouldn't do and even the Sammy had more after market parts available. I doubt if they even make a RockLobster transfer case for a Sportage.
Still you can't get passed the rest of the industry having a better dependability rating than KIA. Maybe that is why they went bankrupt and Hyundai bought them for a song? If it wasn't worried about how well made my vehicle was of if I didn't care how crude the engine was compared to everyone elses maybe I could see your point. But more people seem to feel like I do about Kia. The Sportage is in the Rav4 class of small SUVs and they sell about 29,000 a year. The Rav4 sells 70,000 and the CR-V sells 150,000. even the VUE sells 91,000 so people have a lot of choices however they don't often decide on Kia. Is it possible there is something to those owners surveys? Could JD Powers and CR have a good point? Maybe you forgot to send in your survey to JD Powers and only the dissatisfied customers did. I admit they have a good price. But for a vehicle that should be sold as a generic and simply have a sticker on them saying Car, or Truck, or SUV Kia isn't first on many peoples list. Someday they might be but today is not someday. I do hope you enjoy your Rio5 when you get it. Still I couldn't recommend Kia to anyone I like.
Getting back on track, if the Rio is an example that we are using as a sub compact I don't think the Mid Sized Accords and Camrys have much to worry about in falling out of first place.
I don't think cars like the Rio or Aveo are good examples of the best SUBS out there, not by a long shot. Besides, not that many people are going to buy a Kia unless it's dirt cheap because resale value kills any justifications of economy.
go beyond simple mathematics. I could go buy a mundane looking Camry or Accord or Maxima. I am able financially to do just that without thinking thrice about it. Know why I don't?
Because they look so mundane! I want a good looking rig and Kia seems to be able to design a rig after giving some thought to it. Toyota seems to design on an etch-a sketch budget, something you'd think they'd bust out of, knowing their might. How about some legitimate car body design personnel? The Scion lineup starts to break out of that mold, especially with the Scion tC. The xA is more utilitarian, but falls short in the looks department to the 2006 Kia Rio5 or 2006 Kia Rio LX.
Resale value doesn't mean nearly enough for me to sway the choice I make.
What is going to be interesting is in another year and a half when the Obvio! cars come here from Brazil and the Chery cars come here from China. If Bricklin can sell a Sportage-sized rig for only $12,000 and it is reliable, then Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Chevrolet, DCX and Ford are all going to have to lower their prices.
The Obvio! cars are going to run around $14,000 for the 828/2, which is a pipsqueak of a rig that has about every electronic visual and sound gadget currently available to man in the cabin. Don't believe that last statement? Go to the Obvio! North America website and read about the 828/2 and the "racier" 012. The 012 will cost twice as much as the 828/2.
I think that Americans are so sold on the "Biggie-size" mentality (similar to how nippononly thinks about it) that the schmall-man-size cars may never catch on here. Let's watch and see what happens, though, as ghastly prices continue to rise. I am thrilled as hell that I can buy a car like the '06 Rio LX for only $13,055 and the '06 Rio5 for only $14,195. I wouldn't rule out my own interest in an Obvio! car, either.
It's just gonna be interesting to see if the Chinese cars are gonna be reliable, because, if they are, interest in them may outstrip their ability to export here. If interest doesn't outstrip their ability to export here, then American's opening up their wallets en masse to the Chinese explosion may just force Kia, Hyundai et al to reduce their prices even lower than they already are.
Then, all of us sports-crazy American consumers come out as victorious as Matt Hasselback and Mike Holmgren and Shaun Alexander next Sunday. Whoo-hoo!
I would hope you are right. And I realize that some people are so for the underdog that they will spew forth a hopeful praise on only contender that steps in to challenge them. I have had high hopes for the Koreans and Hyundai almost got me before I got the ZTS. But sometime small is just too small and dependability has to have some place in our buying decission. Unless it is a sports car, I loved my Healey and my Fiat but I didn't have to rely on them everyday. I can wait and maybe I will be proved wrong and history won't repeat itself. But between you and me I doubt if the sub compacts will ever be a strong contender for the number one spot in the american buyers desire for a vehicle. Most people simply grow out of them. Even if that growth is only up to a compact we Americans seem to prefer some space between our drivers and passengers.
I think the problem is that sub compacts simply leave so little room for profit to most manufacturers. Adding content to increase the price just doesn't work because once you reach Civic and Accord sized prices the majority of people jump ship and move towards comfort and space. maybe it is cultural I don't know. Iluv is one of the few people that seem to feel that price alone makes a car worth buying. Style may be subjective but the koreans have a long way to go for a style that captures our looks awards. Dependability may not mean much to people buying on price alone but then maybe they forgot about the Yugo. They were looking for the same buyers the Kia is looking for. Shifty, do you truly feel the sub compact will ever become a sales leader in the US?
It really depends on whether the SUBS continue to make the progress they have made. As I may have mentioned, I see and feel no significant difference right now between a high quality $15K SUB and a $20K "normal car".
Ultimately, I think the subcompact cars will speak for themselves to the American public and they will choose with their checkbooks who stays and who dies. I drove them all (all I could think of!) and was left with the impression that not all sub-compacts are created equal and some seem to belong further down in the pecking order. Yes, you're right...those on the bottom will be sold solely on price, as there aren't any really outstanding attributes to recommend them. Even at $12K if you finance some of the lesser-regarded cars, by the time you add in massive depreciation and finance charges, you might as well have bought a Civic. I did some calculations and a $15K subcompact is predicted to cost you $3,000 less over 5 years than a $12,000 lesser-brand car. So you can get more/better car and pay less for it--what's not to like about that?
A better use of my time than Clodsumer Retorts, but not my much.
Competition does breed all kinds of lies, doesn't it, dudes?
Nobody ever kicks a dead horse. If Hyundai and Kia are a legitimate threat (oh and they are boys)then people are gonna make up lies about them.
You all make your own choices, I could really give a rat's betooty what you(I don't mean you, robertsmx) buy. If you like to throw your money away, go right ahead. I have found the best value on earth in automobiles with the best Warranty, lowest maintenance costs and the best looks. If that doesn't appeal to you then fine, go with what you want. And, please do root for the Pittsburgh Steelers next weekend. Competition is really a good, good thing.
Ahh, now I see. It is all a conspiracy against Kia. CR and JD Powers are in it with Nippon and I to keep Kia from becoming the standard of the world. Maybe the technology for Kia came from Roswell New Mexico?
Shifty, For me a sub compact just won't do. Not unless I need three cars. I have far too many hobbies and friends to use one more than half of a week. Because of the people I run with I don't feel abnormal in needing more room than the sub compacts allow. My wife's Focus is as small as we can use. With it I can get two Congas with the stands a DJembe with stand and Bongos with stand and still have room for my wife on Friday night. If I use the Timbales I have to move to the PT or leave something home. And that is one of the problems I see. The Sub compact is not family friendly if you have kids. Most of them will not hold two child seats because they aren't wide enough. In California you must use an approved child seat for each child or you get a ticket. So as a strictly commuter vehicle or one for a single person or even a retired couple you may have a point. Not a mainstream vehicle for the average american family however, in my opinion. But we can wait and see what it looks like in the next two or three years. That should be long enough to show a trend.
Maybe by then the CIA will allow Kia to come off the the bottom of the dependability list for owners surveys.
over Kias or any other brand, let alone pick on others' choices? Iluv is and has always been very enthusiastic.
There are many ways to put together a subcompact. The Rio is one, the Echo was another, the upcoming Yaris/Fit/Versa are perhaps the best representatives of the segment as it is today, as they are all new. (Well, Rio is new too, but again, there are lots of ways to design a car, regardless of its size).
I was checking out Corollas at the dealer yesterday. Base model CEs sticker at $14,6, could probably be had for $13,6 without much fuss. The Yaris sedan at $13,6 will have the power package and the convenience package, so will be better-equipped at the same price. It looks like at least this time Toyota has the pricing sorted so the ranges of the two models just touch without heavy overlap (unlike the case with the Echo).
I am hoping for a subcompact renaissance (wishful thinking?!) so that these models will be succeeded by second-gen models that will perhaps finally have the superlative fuel economy that none of this new crop this year has.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Besides, not that many people are going to buy a Kia unless it's dirt cheap because resale value kills any justifications of economy.
Not everyone who buys a car will turn around 2 or 3 years later and sell it or trade it in. There are many people who wouldn't care if a cars resale value drops to nothing once you roll it off the dealers lot as long as 10 years and 200k miles later your still driving it.
Not saying a Kia can or cannot do that, just that to many resale value is a non issue since no matter what car they have it won't have much near the end.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
at the DC auto show, and I actually could deal with one of these as a short-distance, single-occupant commuter car. The seating position does seem slightly better than my uncle's Corolla.
However, the back seat was pretty tight. You couldn't put another person my size behind me, like you could do in a Neon or Corolla. And I don't know how they make up these cargo numbers, but I don't see anyway possible the xA could have 12 cubic feet of cargo area (33 with the seats folded). If I were to take a stab at it, I'd say around 3 cubic feet with the back seat up, and maybe 12 with it down? Unless they count cargo capacity by spraying a given volume of expanding foam insulation into the car and measuring every little nook and cranny?
Some of the smaller-trunked cars I've had, such as my '89 Gran Fury and '76 LeMans, have trunks around 15 cubic feet. There is no way in hell that the xA's cargo area behind the back seat is only 3 cubic feet less! I have a cooler that I take with me to some of the shows at Carlisle to keep beer and sodas in. It fits fine in the LeMans with room to spare, and also would have fit in the Fury. But to fit it in the xA, you'd have to drop the back seat down.
I also sat in the Civic, and it seemed pretty comfy to me. I could also fit in the back seat. A bit snug, but doable. And it just seemed more comfy up front. Nicer interior, as well, even if the Battlestar Galactica dashboard is a bit much for some people. I think if forced to choose, I'd definitely go with the Civic.
One little car that did surprise me though, was the Hyundai Elantra. There was one at the show, a 4-door sedan, with a sticker of around $14,600. It was nicely equipped with an automatic, power windows, and I think it even had a sunroof. My only real complaint about the interior, I guess, is that stuff like the turn signal stalk, cruise cluster, and windshield wiper stalks all felt flimsy, and easily broken. Truthfully though, I don't find the Japanese or domestics to be much better, if any. With all the plastics, and all the features that are piled on them, I just don't think there is a way to make them feel as high-quality as an old-fashioned metal signal stalk. Truthfully, ever since the "lane change" turn signal (where you could signal with just a touch of the stalk, instead of pushing it all the way to where it would lock into "right" or "left" until it cancelled) around the late 60's/early 70's, they've just lost that sturdy, unbreakable feeling.
So you thought the seat in the xA would be manageable, eh? I view this as an encouraging sign for the future of subcompacts!
I have tested the stalks on a couple of the American models - the 300 and the 500 - and I find them to be no more substantial than those in my Echo (in cars costing more than twice the price), but I imagine opinions on this will vary a lot. Certainly I like the stalks and switches in the Echo - they are substantial if light, no wiggle or rattle, no feeling like they will snap right off any minute.
As for the cargo room, you must not forget that in a hatchback like the xA, cargo room is right up to the ceiling, and this will fool your eye if you are imagining comparisons with traditional sedans with trunks. If you could take your cooler full of beer and put it on its end so that it was sticking up to the roof, I have no doubt it would fit in the xA just like it fits in your trunk. However, you obviously could not store a cooler this way, and I should add that one thing subcompacts are not well-equipped to do is carry large coolers and four passengers. You get versatile cargo space OR room for several passengers and space for a few coats and an Igloo, not both. But then, they don't make any claim to be able to do both.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I could always do if I had to is get a little car for commuting, and then if I ever went on a long trip where I needed the cargo/passenger space, just rent something. I'd probably save money in the long run.
To be fair, even though I did like the Civic better than the xA, for just running around back and forth and doing errands, and running my grandma to the doctor, either one would probably be fine.
Last June, two buddies and I took a trip to Florida in my Intrepid. We had the cooler, three big suitcases, assorted smaller ones, and a few other odds and ends packed in. We were able to get everything in the trunk except one suitcase, which had to sit in the back seat. There is no way all of that stuff would have fit in an xA, but to be fair, a Civic wouldn't have fit the bill either.
Heck, I guess the two cars that are most on my radar now, the Charger and Altima, wouldn't even fit the bill as well as the Intrepid! But then, that's also not a situation that I run into all the time.
Oh, they also had a Yaris at the show that you could sit in. And they had some Honda Fits, but they were all locked up.
is anything like the 300, it has a pretty huge trunk. You might be surprised.
You are dead on that you could rent a large car for the occasional duties for which you would need one, buy a little car for the rest of the time, and almost certainly come out ahead $$-wise.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The "only rent it when you need it" argument can be extrapolated to a lot of vehicle purchases... People that buy Boxsters for play toys and only put on 2K miles/year, could probably rent one at $500/day, when they actually use it, and come out ahead...
the Charger and Altima only have trunks something like 16 cubic feet. I think my Intrepid is 18.4. So if I were to repeat that trip I took last year, I'd imagine more junk would have to go into the back seat. And it was hard enough to try and sleep in that back seat, as it was! :shades:
that it would be cheaper for me to just rent a pickup for the occasions that I need one instead of buying one. Honestly, the only reason that I even have a pickup is because my Mom sold me her old one so cheap. If it weren't for that, we'd still probably be strapping 4x8 sheets of plywood on the roof of my Grandma's old LeSabre, and piling up its trunk to haul junk to the dump.
I'll admit though, that I do like that high-up, full-sized pickup seating position.
as long as the repair bills don't begin to eat you alive, having a 20-year-old truck is a good idea for the occasional duties - probably cheaper to you than renting one when you need it (full-size pick-ups tend to be more pricey than your average rental).
Now buying a new one would be another story entirely. As would buying a large car if you drive others in it very infrequently. In that case, a small car would provide tangible advantages.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The "only rent it when you need it" argument can be extrapolated to a lot of vehicle purchases
True, you could also go as far as to say, why buy a commuter car for the week when you could use mass transit. Why buy a small car when you could Van Pool? After all a small car getting 50 miles per gallon with one person will use more gas per person than a Van getting 12 miles per gallon. You could even save on insurance and only use your family car on the weekends. Most Californians aren't going to do that but they could and then rent a vehicle when they had places to go or things to do other than work. Not likely but frugal.
Comments
Two car families are pretty common in my area but I wonder if the Sub compact isn't pretty limiting for one car families? If all you do is go back and forth to work maybe it wouldn't matter but if you have just about any hobbies our weekend interests it would seem you would limit yourself in what you could do with your car. Going out to dinner with friends isn't bad in the ZTS even. But one of my employees has a Echo and I can tell you four full sized men are pretty cramped for any trip of any distance. After lunch not many are willing to ride with the Echo driver on the trip back to the plant. So once again I feel the sub compact and the mini cars you often refer to will have limited appeal to the majority of drivers. The xB has lots of room, but I wouldn't ride in one to a dog fight, my opinion of how that vehicle looks is not a secret and I know people that love theirs. I just believe they make a H3 look sleek.
So if I were asked what is wrong with these sub compacts I would simply say, room and to a degree power. But then my Company car is a Crown Vic. It takes two small cars to push me in and out of a parking space and and anchor to stop in a hurry.
Outside dense urban areas like San Francisco and Manhattan, are there really any one-car families anywhere in America? Certainly in your native SoCal, boaz, there aren't (as a broad generalization). I lived there for almost a decade.
Now, I have personal experience with two-car families - most of my friends qualify. And in every case, one car is the commuter that just sits on the weekend - an illusion of freedom and spacious versatility that in reality just sits around or gets used as a solo commuter. The other car (usually the bigger one) is the one that gets driven the rest of the time.
Given that is the case, why make the second car a midsize sedan? Why make it an SUV? A much smaller car will do the trick and be more fun into the bargain.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm working in the Allied Health field but have a lot of passion for Kia. You are spot on.
I think that part of what's exciting now is the move towards subcompacts as a valid alternative, fueled (pardon the pun) by the high ghastly prices and environmental concerns as well. There are some interesting new small-size choices coming in the upcoming months for automobile consumers that warrant a serious look.
There's a little couple of cars coming from Brazil called Obvio! in another year that, IMO, are not intended to be novelty cars but are micro-sized cars that provide stellar gas mileage and parking and steering radius alternatives.
I've always been a fan of small cars and it's just exciting to see them being manufactured now as smart choices for people. Watch the car purchase trends occur in the upcoming months as ghastly creeps nastily higher and higher and the time comes once again for road trips.
Big, wide open road trips in the West.
Whoo-hoo! :P BTW-go Seahawks! I can't wait for the Big Enchilada coming up!
You will see a Seahawks victory in the Super Bowl for the first time.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Nippon,
The real problem for sub compacts is perception and optional use. The advantages of having a sub compact almost evaporate when you don't live in a major metropolitan area like San Francisco or LA. Even in LA street parking is limited so you are forced to use a parking lot and except for the most massive of vehicles parking is pretty easy with the marked spaces and all. If you look at carlisimo's post you see the attitude that has kept sub compacts from becoming a driving force in the auto industry. People think of them as something to put up with if they have to. But once they are free from whatever restrictions they feel caused them to get a sub compact they are ready to move up. After all the years people have demonstrated this trend how do you propose the manufacturers can turn the buying public's mindset around today when they have failed to do so for so many years?
Nippon,
The real problem for sub compacts is perception and optional use. The advantages of having a sub compact almost evaporate when you don't live in a major metropolitan area like San Francisco or LA. Even in LA street parking is limited so you are forced to use a parking lot and except for the most massive of vehicles parking is pretty easy with the marked spaces and all. If you look at carlisimo's post you see the attitude that has kept sub compacts from becoming a driving force in the auto industry. People think of them as something to put up with if they have to. But once they are free from whatever restrictions they feel caused them to get a sub compact they are ready to move up. After all the years people have demonstrated this trend how do you propose the manufacturers can turn the buying publics mindset around today when they have failed to do so for so many years?
Not always, especially as a second car a sub compact still has its advantages in rural America. I know one couple in southern IL where he works about 50 miles or so from home so the gas savings in a sub compact is pretty good for him.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
As for poor people, I notice that many of them tend to buy whatever they can find that is cheap and available, usually regardless of size. Most of the people I've known would have something like a truck or a big, old car.
Something like a late 70's Olds Ninety Eight would run on forever, be cheap to fix (or jerry-rig if you had to) and would be good for 4 or 5 minor accidents before it was too shot to use. A smaller car might still be reliable, but often not as cheap or easy to fix, especially if FWD and newer, and often it just takes one light hit to send it off to the junkyard.
Anyway, were these heaps ever exported to the USA? I'd wager that somebody would buy them..they probably deliver over 40 MPG 9although they probably would not survive a crash with a bicycle.
I think another thing that hurts sub compacts is that even with a pretty low buy in price they have to compete with a lot of low mileage used Accords and Camrys. After all there are so many of them made they are pretty easy to find used. Today you can get financing for a low mileage used car pretty close to what you get for a new car so why settle for a sub compact when you can get a two year old Accord or Camry with many years of life left. And the Accord and Camry will be a lot more comfortable. With the 4 banger they get pretty good fuel mileage as well.
With side airbags and radio added, xA runs a price tag of $14.3K (and from what I have heard, that THE price, unlike in case of other cars where you could negotiate, usually down to listed invoice which is often 8-9% below MSRP). But thats another story.
But more importantly, the bottomline is that xA and Yaris would compare to Fit, NOT Civic. Why not compare Civic to Corolla (just built a Corolla CE 5MT with abs, side airbags/side curtain airbags and no other option to carry an MSRP of $16K).
Fit is supposed to offer more features at a price that is less than Civic LX.
why make the second car a midsize sedan? Why make it an SUV? A much smaller car will do the trick and be more fun into the bargain
Exactly. And that is why my second car is a Civic EX instead of an Accord LX. And my wife always appreciates the 7-8 mpg higher fuel economy to go with it (city driving which is where our cars spend most of their time).
If one is okay with a used car (2-3 year old), they could as well choose a 2-3 year old used compact/subcompact car.
As for gas mileage, while I agree not all subcompact/compacts seem to beat a few of the midsizers, many do. I've a great pair at home. For comfort, Accord is out there, for commuting and doing little things around the house, Civic does its job well.
Every Toyota dealer that I even asked about 5M, let alone ABS said that it wasn't going to happen (ie not even worth pricing out to do a locate).
The original poster was trying to assert that for about the same price (given equivalent levels of feature content), you might as well just buy the Civic instead of the subcompact, be it Yaris, Fit, xA, whatever. I was trying to point out that this is nothing like true. There is in fact a $3K difference between some of those models. To lots of buyers, that is a meaningful amount of money.
boaz: the points you are making are predicated on the notion that "bigger is better" - apparently you have accepted this as fact, as so many Americans have. I can't argue with you when you say that subcompacts have a tough row to hoe in the U.S. because "bigger is better" is so ingrained here. I can only rail against this notion, which may be true for some buyers but is FAR from a truism. Bigger is worse in many ways.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But not everyone has a family, and not all subcompacts are cheap. I think there are a few ways to build subcompacts: 1) cheap, 2) sporty/sports car, and 3) trendy (hybrids or styling). I'd like to move towards category 2 in the next few years. If I have a family, I'd probably move towards upscale compacts.
I'm part of a small group, I admit that. I hope I still have options when it's time to buy a car. But when most people ask me if they should get a new Accent or a used Accord, I find myself recommending the Accord.
When we read the Edmunds review of the Spectra and they praise it yet make statements like, "it isn't an exciting car to drive." they have to add, "but it does what it was designed to do." All most people remember is the unexciting part. If people ever settled on getting only what they needed and nothing more all our houses would be smaller. Everyone would be wearing Timex watches. we would always shop for the generic foods in stores and we would all buy our shoes at payless. Yes we might be better off but that doesn't account for our desires and feelings that we have worked hard to improve our life style individually and people feel they have earned more comfort, more power, more status. Something a Sub Compact isn't likely to provide.
Yes Nippon, I have decided that people aren't going to change.
I've read both Car and Top Gear magazines for some time, now and have looked with envy at some of the vehicles offered there that aren't available here.
I understand that the economic environment (specifically, the cost of gas) makes these smaller cars more attractive. In the US, historically low gas prices means that folks spend less of their income on transportation and therefore buy a larger car/truck/SUV/minivan.
boaz, I agree with you that most folks here buy a car based on perceived need, not actual need ... and let's not even bring 'prestige' into the discussion.
Now, and maybe this is due to my advancing age (early 40's) and maturity, I believe that most folks could probably get by with something smaller than what they have currently.
When I was a kid .... sheesh, I wish I had a dime for every old timer who started out a story with that phrase. However, think back one or two generations. No minivans, and the trucks and "SUV's" of the time were predominantly commercial vehicles - who bought a Blazer or Bronco in 1975 unless they used it for it's intended purpose (off roading, towing, etc.)?
Families drove cars, darnit, and there were different models of cars for different needs. Heck, my family of four had a VW Squareback and a Toyota Corona as the family vehicles for most of mine and my sister's childhood.
My point is, most families are two-income, with two vehicles. One is probably only used during the week as a commuter. Why does it have to be any bigger than a sub-compact or compact? That doesn't mean that it can't be nice - A/C, cruise, power everything, a decent stereo, keyless remote, alloy wheels and ABS are pretty much available (even as options) on most cars.
Leather? Can be added to just about anything for a grand.
Nav? Buy an aftermarket unit and move it between vehicles.
RES? Same as above - buy aftermarket for the kids.
In some cases, they do, and in other cases, they don’t. However, those that do are likely to step up eventually depending on their experiences. Now imagine if we didn’t have any choice.
I contend people would rather have a bigger vehicle than a sub compact.
We could make a similar argument that some people would rather have a new vehicle than used. Once again, things aren’t as cut and dry to assume people make choices only in one way or the other. It is usually a nice mix.
A sub compact is fine for commuting but for weekends you need a second car.
Like a minivan? Because, if weekends involve family trips, not even cars like Civic and Corolla make much sense.
Personally, the only issue I would have with small cars (at least those that are currently available) is refinement. If automakers could find a way to fix that issue, I wouldn’t mind having a sub-compact myself, as the only car. If I needed something larger, I could always rent one (something as big as I need it to be)
The used Accord verses the Accent is simply one example.
If we have that example, how does Hyundai manage to sell even one unit of Accent? The answer is quite simple people go buy it, and don’t always prefer “used values” over “new car”.
BTW, I believe Honda is limiting Fit sales to something like 50K units in the first full year. Do you think they will be able to meet that target (if indeed true)?
Well, it is probably more compact than sub compact, but this is why I want to check out an Audi A3 soon.
It is also why I keep harping on GM figuring out a way to bring a Kappa hatch to market.
The 60's were great with the '65 Mustang and '62 Chevy Nova. Subcompacts are so cool because of the closeness of the cab. I love the buzziness of the engine and the lights of the dash, the stereo right there within easy reach and the competency of the Kia brand makes me feel safe, secure and always having fun. BTW-Kia offers a 12-month, 12,000 mile Warranty on the OEM tires now and they've always given you a toll-free telephone number to call if you break down. Anywhere. You can even get reimbursed for your food and hotel costs while you're waiting for repairs. These new Kia's are so Warrantied-up that everything is taken care of, but I know I won't need the help. At least, I have the help if I need it but most likely won't. I like that being sold to me with my new Kia, and I have used the Long-Haul Warranty before a couple times. It does help that both of the Kia dealers I've had work on my two Kia's, Jerry Smith Chev-Buick-Kia of Burlington, WA, and Youngblood Kia of Springfield, MO, have been straight-shooters and honest and up-front with me. The mechanic I chose in Rolla, MO, to do my 60,000 mile service was great, too. I always get my Kia's serviced per the service manual and keep the receipts. It pays off later to do that, don'tcha'know. The reason I mention the fine service I've received is that that is a huge part of one's happiness with a carmaker. I need to feel that I'm being dealt with honestly by my dealer's service department. And I'll tell ya what dudes, keeping up on your car's particular mechanicals, how they work and the whole nine yards goes a long ways towards being dealt with honestly by your mechainc, or, in the case of a Kia dealership's service department, your mechanics, plural. You're gonna have a few of them if you take it into your Kia dealer, but I am very impressed by them so far. They know their Kia product and they keep your Kia running optimally for you. But you have to show interest, be informed and insist on knowing what's going on each and every step of the way, cyber auto-enthusiasts. To me it's part of a labor of love. When I hear that there's Kia Sephia car clubs in South Korea it warms my heart with a knowing glow. Just as much as a glow as the glow I get inside when contemplating the Seattle Seahawks upcoming success against the Pittsburgh Steelers on February 5th, 2006. I can't wait to taste Seahawk victory that day. I can feel the victory, dudes, Hasselbeck, Jeramy Sevens, Shaun Alexander and Holmgren and the crew will systematically disect the Steeler machine to the point the so-called pundits will have to whack thier selves on the sides of their collective heads and go, "Whoa, they really are good, aren't they?"
I love the Pocatello library because I can read Car and Driver and Motor Trend and, against my better instincts, I sucker myself into reading Clodsumer Retorts. Those stupid little circles with their "Recommended" or "Good" or "Unreliable" stamp on it. I saw so many Honda ads in there that I realized finally why Clodsumer Retorts is so friendly to Honda in their reviews: Honda pays them buckloads of cash to write nice things about them in there. Guess what new rigs Clodsumer Retorts loves? You guessed it-the whole new slew of Civics! After nearly barfing I picked up a decent dose of reality and read a Car and Driver magazine.
No, the 2006 Kia Rio5 and Kia Rio LX sedan are gonna be an absolute ball to test drive in what just amounts to about one more week! I'll be armed with my College Degree and my 2001 Kia Sportage 4x4 title in hand, looking to take advantage of Kia's Owner Loyalty $500 discount and their $400 new college grad rebate. I still see the Silver LX and the Sapphire Blue LX 4-door sedans on the Robert Allen Kia lot here in Pocatello and the Kia Rio5 in Tropical Red. I may just have to have the leather-wrapped steering wheel the Rio5 offers standard.
BTW-I would have the first 2006 Kia Rio5 or 2006 Kia Rio LX in Pocatello, ID. I have yet to see a single new Rio on the streets of this city of 50,700 people. I did, out of the corner of my eye, see a 2006 Kia Rio LX 4-door sedan in the Silver color at a rental car place. It was not, BTW, the same Silver Rio for sale at Robert Allen Kia. So, if Silver grabs my fancy that day about a week from tomorrow, I can still trade for it.
I'm favoring the Sapphire Blue LX sedan for those keeping tabs.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I won't go into that a great deal.
I am pretty sure it was Honda ads in the Consumer Reports magazine (brand new) I read last night in the library. If somebody can prove that wrong or verify it is true for us would they please chime in here? Appreciate it!
They were literally gushing praise for the new Civic lineup from Honda Motor Company of Japan. Imagine that.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
It sounds like CR doesn't like the Rio that much? ("stupid little circles...Unreliable stamp") Or did they dig it? No-one could dig Kias as much as you, iluv! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Before I bought my wife her ZTS I test drove a Mazda P5, Honda Civic a Kia Rio and even a Neon. The Kia was the least expensive. But it also felt the least expensive. If initial cost is your number one priority maybe the Kia is a good example of a Sub Compact. But I sure wouldn't pick one over a Mazda 3, Civic, Focus or even a Cobalt or Sentra. I wonder how many would? It doesn't sound like subscribers to CR or JD Powers would.
Anyhoo, last night it was snowing, and I started up that incline on the west end of the bridge, heading eastbound. It is a decent incline, probably something around 15% or so. I was in 2WD, rear wheel drive. The road surface was compact snow and ice. Up I went, around 100 yards or so, then my wheels started slipping.
After a few seconds of that I simply put on my brakes (after checking that no one was behind me, of course)and slipped the differential into 4WD. As is always the case, the Kia automatic hubs engaged and I was in 4WD as quickly as it takes a Matt Hasselbeck pass to whizz over a Pittsburgh Steeler middle linebacker's head. Up the bridge I drove and back down the other side.
I have also found another benefit to buying a Kia motorcar. My maintenance costs are insanely low. As I have pointed out before my OEM Hankook SUV tires went 102,000 and still had tread left on them! All I have ever done is regular maintenance on the small SUV. I have never even needed to replace a single lightbulb!
When a person is treated like that from his motorcar and motorcar company and motorcar dealer, I must conclude that this maketh good sense. It maketh such good sense that I must seeketh no other way to buy.
So I will buy another Kia in a week or two. And I will continue to receive the very best value automotively on the planet.
BTW-Hyundai is a fine manufacturer of motor vehicles, too, but even they don't have Kia's fine skill of designing car bodies. Kia does it best.
Enjoy watching Seattle dismantle the 'uge Steeler warship next Sunday.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You're losin' it, bud, but at least you're enjoying yourself doing it! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And by adding "eh?", I pay homage to our friendly neighbors to the north, who also share their love for their automobiles regularly on this website.
Especially the 2007 Toyota Yaris, huh, nippononly?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Still you can't get passed the rest of the industry having a better dependability rating than KIA. Maybe that is why they went bankrupt and Hyundai bought them for a song? If it wasn't worried about how well made my vehicle was of if I didn't care how crude the engine was compared to everyone elses maybe I could see your point. But more people seem to feel like I do about Kia. The Sportage is in the Rav4 class of small SUVs and they sell about 29,000 a year. The Rav4 sells 70,000 and the CR-V sells 150,000. even the VUE sells 91,000 so people have a lot of choices however they don't often decide on Kia. Is it possible there is something to those owners surveys? Could JD Powers and CR have a good point? Maybe you forgot to send in your survey to JD Powers and only the dissatisfied customers did. I admit they have a good price. But for a vehicle that should be sold as a generic and simply have a sticker on them saying Car, or Truck, or SUV Kia isn't first on many peoples list. Someday they might be but today is not someday. I do hope you enjoy your Rio5 when you get it. Still I couldn't recommend Kia to anyone I like.
Getting back on track, if the Rio is an example that we are using as a sub compact I don't think the Mid Sized Accords and Camrys have much to worry about in falling out of first place.
Because they look so mundane! I want a good looking rig and Kia seems to be able to design a rig after giving some thought to it. Toyota seems to design on an etch-a sketch budget, something you'd think they'd bust out of, knowing their might. How about some legitimate car body design personnel? The Scion lineup starts to break out of that mold, especially with the Scion tC. The xA is more utilitarian, but falls short in the looks department to the 2006 Kia Rio5 or 2006 Kia Rio LX.
Resale value doesn't mean nearly enough for me to sway the choice I make.
What is going to be interesting is in another year and a half when the Obvio! cars come here from Brazil and the Chery cars come here from China. If Bricklin can sell a Sportage-sized rig for only $12,000 and it is reliable, then Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Chevrolet, DCX and Ford are all going to have to lower their prices.
The Obvio! cars are going to run around $14,000 for the 828/2, which is a pipsqueak of a rig that has about every electronic visual and sound gadget currently available to man in the cabin. Don't believe that last statement? Go to the Obvio! North America website and read about the 828/2 and the "racier" 012. The 012 will cost twice as much as the 828/2.
I think that Americans are so sold on the "Biggie-size" mentality (similar to how nippononly thinks about it) that the schmall-man-size cars may never catch on here. Let's watch and see what happens, though, as ghastly prices continue to rise. I am thrilled as hell that I can buy a car like the '06 Rio LX for only $13,055 and the '06 Rio5 for only $14,195. I wouldn't rule out my own interest in an Obvio! car, either.
It's just gonna be interesting to see if the Chinese cars are gonna be reliable, because, if they are, interest in them may outstrip their ability to export here. If interest doesn't outstrip their ability to export here, then American's opening up their wallets en masse to the Chinese explosion may just force Kia, Hyundai et al to reduce their prices even lower than they already are.
Then, all of us sports-crazy American consumers come out as victorious as Matt Hasselback and Mike Holmgren and Shaun Alexander next Sunday. Whoo-hoo!
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I think the problem is that sub compacts simply leave so little room for profit to most manufacturers. Adding content to increase the price just doesn't work because once you reach Civic and Accord sized prices the majority of people jump ship and move towards comfort and space. maybe it is cultural I don't know. Iluv is one of the few people that seem to feel that price alone makes a car worth buying. Style may be subjective but the koreans have a long way to go for a style that captures our looks awards. Dependability may not mean much to people buying on price alone but then maybe they forgot about the Yugo. They were looking for the same buyers the Kia is looking for.
Shifty, do you truly feel the sub compact will ever become a sales leader in the US?
Ultimately, I think the subcompact cars will speak for themselves to the American public and they will choose with their checkbooks who stays and who dies. I drove them all (all I could think of!) and was left with the impression that not all sub-compacts are created equal and some seem to belong further down in the pecking order. Yes, you're right...those on the bottom will be sold solely on price, as there aren't any really outstanding attributes to recommend them. Even at $12K if you finance some of the lesser-regarded cars, by the time you add in massive depreciation and finance charges, you might as well have bought a Civic. I did some calculations and a $15K subcompact is predicted to cost you $3,000 less over 5 years than a $12,000 lesser-brand car. So you can get more/better car and pay less for it--what's not to like about that?
Probably Consumer "digest" (not reports).
A better use of my time than Clodsumer Retorts, but not my much.
Competition does breed all kinds of lies, doesn't it, dudes?
Nobody ever kicks a dead horse. If Hyundai and Kia are a legitimate threat (oh and they are boys)then people are gonna make up lies about them.
You all make your own choices, I could really give a rat's betooty what you(I don't mean you, robertsmx) buy. If you like to throw your money away, go right ahead. I have found the best value on earth in automobiles with the best Warranty, lowest maintenance costs and the best looks. If that doesn't appeal to you then fine, go with what you want. And, please do root for the Pittsburgh Steelers next weekend. Competition is really a good, good thing.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Shifty,
For me a sub compact just won't do. Not unless I need three cars. I have far too many hobbies and friends to use one more than half of a week. Because of the people I run with I don't feel abnormal in needing more room than the sub compacts allow. My wife's Focus is as small as we can use. With it I can get two Congas with the stands a DJembe with stand and Bongos with stand and still have room for my wife on Friday night. If I use the Timbales I have to move to the PT or leave something home. And that is one of the problems I see. The Sub compact is not family friendly if you have kids. Most of them will not hold two child seats because they aren't wide enough. In California you must use an approved child seat for each child or you get a ticket. So as a strictly commuter vehicle or one for a single person or even a retired couple you may have a point. Not a mainstream vehicle for the average american family however, in my opinion. But we can wait and see what it looks like in the next two or three years. That should be long enough to show a trend.
Maybe by then the CIA will allow Kia to come off the the bottom of the dependability list for owners surveys.
There are many ways to put together a subcompact. The Rio is one, the Echo was another, the upcoming Yaris/Fit/Versa are perhaps the best representatives of the segment as it is today, as they are all new. (Well, Rio is new too, but again, there are lots of ways to design a car, regardless of its size).
I was checking out Corollas at the dealer yesterday. Base model CEs sticker at $14,6, could probably be had for $13,6 without much fuss. The Yaris sedan at $13,6 will have the power package and the convenience package, so will be better-equipped at the same price. It looks like at least this time Toyota has the pricing sorted so the ranges of the two models just touch without heavy overlap (unlike the case with the Echo).
I am hoping for a subcompact renaissance (wishful thinking?!) so that these models will be succeeded by second-gen models that will perhaps finally have the superlative fuel economy that none of this new crop this year has.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not everyone who buys a car will turn around 2 or 3 years later and sell it or trade it in. There are many people who wouldn't care if a cars resale value drops to nothing once you roll it off the dealers lot as long as 10 years and 200k miles later your still driving it.
Not saying a Kia can or cannot do that, just that to many resale value is a non issue since no matter what car they have it won't have much near the end.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
However, the back seat was pretty tight. You couldn't put another person my size behind me, like you could do in a Neon or Corolla. And I don't know how they make up these cargo numbers, but I don't see anyway possible the xA could have 12 cubic feet of cargo area (33 with the seats folded). If I were to take a stab at it, I'd say around 3 cubic feet with the back seat up, and maybe 12 with it down? Unless they count cargo capacity by spraying a given volume of expanding foam insulation into the car and measuring every little nook and cranny?
Some of the smaller-trunked cars I've had, such as my '89 Gran Fury and '76 LeMans, have trunks around 15 cubic feet. There is no way in hell that the xA's cargo area behind the back seat is only 3 cubic feet less! I have a cooler that I take with me to some of the shows at Carlisle to keep beer and sodas in. It fits fine in the LeMans with room to spare, and also would have fit in the Fury. But to fit it in the xA, you'd have to drop the back seat down.
I also sat in the Civic, and it seemed pretty comfy to me. I could also fit in the back seat. A bit snug, but doable. And it just seemed more comfy up front. Nicer interior, as well, even if the Battlestar Galactica dashboard is a bit much for some people. I think if forced to choose, I'd definitely go with the Civic.
One little car that did surprise me though, was the Hyundai Elantra. There was one at the show, a 4-door sedan, with a sticker of around $14,600. It was nicely equipped with an automatic, power windows, and I think it even had a sunroof. My only real complaint about the interior, I guess, is that stuff like the turn signal stalk, cruise cluster, and windshield wiper stalks all felt flimsy, and easily broken. Truthfully though, I don't find the Japanese or domestics to be much better, if any. With all the plastics, and all the features that are piled on them, I just don't think there is a way to make them feel as high-quality as an old-fashioned metal signal stalk. Truthfully, ever since the "lane change" turn signal (where you could signal with just a touch of the stalk, instead of pushing it all the way to where it would lock into "right" or "left" until it cancelled) around the late 60's/early 70's, they've just lost that sturdy, unbreakable feeling.
So you thought the seat in the xA would be manageable, eh? I view this as an encouraging sign for the future of subcompacts!
I have tested the stalks on a couple of the American models - the 300 and the 500 - and I find them to be no more substantial than those in my Echo (in cars costing more than twice the price), but I imagine opinions on this will vary a lot. Certainly I like the stalks and switches in the Echo - they are substantial if light, no wiggle or rattle, no feeling like they will snap right off any minute.
As for the cargo room, you must not forget that in a hatchback like the xA, cargo room is right up to the ceiling, and this will fool your eye if you are imagining comparisons with traditional sedans with trunks. If you could take your cooler full of beer and put it on its end so that it was sticking up to the roof, I have no doubt it would fit in the xA just like it fits in your trunk. However, you obviously could not store a cooler this way, and I should add that one thing subcompacts are not well-equipped to do is carry large coolers and four passengers. You get versatile cargo space OR room for several passengers and space for a few coats and an Igloo, not both. But then, they don't make any claim to be able to do both.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
To be fair, even though I did like the Civic better than the xA, for just running around back and forth and doing errands, and running my grandma to the doctor, either one would probably be fine.
Last June, two buddies and I took a trip to Florida in my Intrepid. We had the cooler, three big suitcases, assorted smaller ones, and a few other odds and ends packed in. We were able to get everything in the trunk except one suitcase, which had to sit in the back seat. There is no way all of that stuff would have fit in an xA, but to be fair, a Civic wouldn't have fit the bill either.
Heck, I guess the two cars that are most on my radar now, the Charger and Altima, wouldn't even fit the bill as well as the Intrepid! But then, that's also not a situation that I run into all the time.
Oh, they also had a Yaris at the show that you could sit in. And they had some Honda Fits, but they were all locked up.
You are dead on that you could rent a large car for the occasional duties for which you would need one, buy a little car for the rest of the time, and almost certainly come out ahead $$-wise.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I'll admit though, that I do like that high-up, full-sized pickup seating position.
Now buying a new one would be another story entirely. As would buying a large car if you drive others in it very infrequently. In that case, a small car would provide tangible advantages.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
True, you could also go as far as to say, why buy a commuter car for the week when you could use mass transit. Why buy a small car when you could Van Pool? After all a small car getting 50 miles per gallon with one person will use more gas per person than a Van getting 12 miles per gallon. You could even save on insurance and only use your family car on the weekends. Most Californians aren't going to do that but they could and then rent a vehicle when they had places to go or things to do other than work. Not likely but frugal.