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C&D got 7.2s, and Autos.com quotes 6.7s to 60mph in the Toyota Sienna.
So 7.8s is "kinda slow" today.
For tiny cars, 10 seconds or so is about the acceptable limit for acceleration. Any higher is glacial-paced.
Honda is re-thinking it's strategy, and future hybrids will likely stand out from conventional cars.
The Civic Hybrid is fine, but it's anonymous. The Prius is the hybrid poster boy. Toyota gets all the good PR from hybrids.
If you check out Car & Driver's "Ten Best" issue, the WORST car they tested (acceleration) in 2007 was the Chevrolet Aveo, with a 0-60 time of 10.8 seconds! It wasn't too long ago that an 11 second 0-60 time was reasonable, if not average.
My 'hot hatch' '83 GTI did 0-60 in a scorching 10.6 sec
Sure seemed faster!
First of all, thanks for the great post, I enjoyed reading it and agree with your points.
I too have had some of the cars you noted, and raced a Lotus Formula Ford for a few seasons. So the only point, is my how things have changed....
As far as the question above, my take on it is the oil companies like Exxon, Chevron, etc are so incredibly powerful and influential that they are the reason that we still do not have any small cars with super the high fuel economy that we are capable of obtaining with the technology of today.
Toyota is a very clever & smart car company. The very reason the Prius has both an electric motor and a gas engine is that they knew that building an all electric car would cause protests, and push back from the oil companies. Toyota learned early on, when selling in the US that they had to be very careful with their success and rate at which they began to overtake other mfgs.
This is in my opinion why they chose to wait this long before releasing a full size pickup truck. Even though it's content is nearly 100% American, built here, and assembled here, there was still that argument and conflict that it's a vehicle built by a Japanese company. Interesting, very interesting indeed.
hmmm...OK, can you supply one piece of evidence that shows the oil companies are controlling the design process of all (not just US) car companies? This is an amazing claim, facts are needed!
Perhaps you've forgotten that this is a public forum and what's it's purpose is. Here is the definition for you:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
fo·rum /ˈfɔrəm, ˈfoʊrəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawr-uhm, fohr-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural fo·rums, fo·ra /ˈfɔrə, ˈfoʊrə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawr-uh, fohr-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation.
1. the marketplace or public square of an ancient Roman city, the center of judicial and business affairs and a place of assembly for the people.
2. a court or tribunal: the forum of public opinion.
3. an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest.
4. the Forum, the forum in the ancient city of Rome.
[Origin: 1425–75; late ME < L: marketplace, public place, akin to forīs, forās outside, foris door]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/forum
Cheers!
If you time traffic starting from stop light I doubt that it accelerates that fast. We did that once and found traffic tends to get to 40 in 10-15 seconds.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
What? This is a conspiracy theory you don't need facts.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Maybe a red herring would have been better ... you know, like citing Hitler.
:confuse:
It's fine to state what you think but when you present something as fact you better be willing to back it up w/a source. I didn't need to go to grad school to learn that concept!
I will say it, the consumer doesn't give a rats #$%^ about it. Even here on Edmunds there are many that don't care. Its all about power and the like. A while back on another thread I mention something about that a midsized sedan doesn't really need 250+ HP and you should have seen the people jump down my neck for that. Most cars out there can easily get away with less powerful more efficient engines and most drivers wouldn't notice in their daily driving. But you can't tell them that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have to assume some guilt on that behalf myself. But I put it at 130HP for a Focus sized car and 175 HP for a mid sized car. After all the 108 HP sub compacts are not the fuel mileage leaders in many cases. They often do pretty well in city mileage but fall short on the highway. It is just hard for me to justify giving up the comfort of a mid sized car or even a compact for a sub compact when the mileage difference is so little. Now if we were talking 50 - 60 MPG and 11K my ears would perk up. But the Smart isn't talking those numbers nor is the Fit.
It's hard to talk about the Smart since hardly anyone has even laid eyes on one yet.
Actually, I have no earthly idea why or how you came to that conclusion since it isn't in the title of this discussion, or listed on the sidebar as vehicles of interest to the discussion. Sorry if you were misinformed.
There is a Smart Car board here as well that dials in on the smart and its pros and cons.
Many of the topics here are a bit far removed from the original post that was more of a comparison post. But after almost 7,000 posts, you'd expect quite a bit of topic drift.
I definitely think the Smart will do that, but I think if you still had the XKE, it would do that too :P
Like everybody on these sites, I love cars and just might go ahead with it for kicks
There is absolutely nothing wrong at all with buying a car because you like it, based on what ever criteria you have. I think its cool that you still look for new driving experiences and vehicle types after a lot of years of driving.
If you do get the Cabrio, get a good cap or something with a brim, especially in Florida. The breeze through your hair is a great feeling, but the feeling of skin peeling of a sunburned scalp is sub-optimal (I found out about that on a trip to HI this summer..).
Happy motoring.
While I will agree they are a lot more car the practical side of me asks to I need more car? As a daily commute I cannot even remember when I needed the extra utility that a Versa or a Fit has over a Smart. So with a lower price tag and better mileage a Smart would be better for me as the daily commute.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It was funny to watch Russell Crowe drive a Smart Car in France in the movie 'A Good Day'. It is hilarious! It's a rental car for him and he looks at the car with the most annoyed grinnish-smirshish look. And then the camera follows him as he motors to town and back, etc. I didn't know I was gonna get a look at the Smart Car in this movie so it was a cool surprise. Definitely a different rig, gentlemen. And sub-subcompact, too.
What's wrong with the car? Humm...lack of storage? That's not a good enough reason. Unsafe in an accident? Dunno yet about that. I'll stick with the extra room and what I feel to be good gas mileage of my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS while Ford works on the new Verve subcompact for 2010 and Chery/Dodge work on the new Dodge Hornet subcompact. It's all about compacts(the Lancer) and subcompacts, but I'm not so sold on the sub-subcompacts like Smart. Or the ZENN-mobile...but I am gonna investigate EV's as the years in the Lancer GTS roll by.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Not sure if you can say I have fallen for it but it is on my list as possible replacement for my daily drive. A few things that will affect my decision are how the car feels when I sit in it, when I drive it, how the mileage stacks up, what she who must be obeyed thinks (most influential variable). But I can easily see it as my daily drive commuter car.
The next two cars we will be buying most likely will be a midsized sedan for the wife for her to use as a daily drive commuter and us to use as a family/vacation car and a small inexpensive high mileage economy car for me as a daily drive commuter car and for me to do some small stuff in. The Smart may fit that very well.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree, while there are those people who insist on testing their vehicle's capabilities at every light, most intelligent (and semi-intellingent) people accelerate much more cautiously.
But their vehicles are capable of 0-60 times well under 10 seconds, for the most part.
As for the Hornet, and per recent announcements, the upcoming Demon that will compete with the Miata, I think Chrysler made a mistake in farming out the mechanical development and manufacture to Chery. That's not a collaborative arrangement, that's just an arrangement to buy cars from Chery and sell them in the U.S. with Chrysler Group badges on them.
If that was what they had in mind, I think it would have been better for them to expand the new deal they are going to have with Nissan: they are currently getting set to buy Versas from Nissan (Versa is called Tiida in other countries, so they will be getting rebadged Tiidas) and sell them with Chrysler Group badges in other parts of the world (not the U.S., at least not yet). I think they would be buying into better engineering and better manufacturing standards by going with Nissan.
Edit...it is intriguing to me that sailorman4 is buying the ForTwo (if he goes ahead) just for its differentness and panache. As I recall, Smart was counting on 25% of the sales going to customers just like him, and it appears that they may have had something there...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I do NOT think we will see any of the smallest cars with diesels for quite a while. You mention Honda, and Honda has no plans for a diesel for the Civic or Fit. They do have plans to produce the CRZ (the next-gen CRX, after a little 15-year break! ;-)) with a hybrid powertrain, and I bet that car will have fantastic gas mileage and superlative handling as well. 50 mpg and top-speed slaloms, here we come.
Honda's diesels will be first for Pilot, Ridgeline, and Accord, and then perhaps for CRV and Element etc. According to their announcement, anyway.
I wish VW would sell the Polo here with a small diesel from Europe. And that Ford would get into the game and bring along one of its own European diesels. Alas, for now, we have no announcements from either...
I wonder if Mini will ever decide to sell the American Cooper with the European diesel. We have the ULSD now, after all. The base Cooper makes good mileage with the gas engine, but it's not great, just good. The diesel could easily exceed it by quite a bit.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
When you go from 20mpg to 30mpg you get huge savings.
Going from 30mpg to 40mpg doesn't net nearly the same savings.
Actually my wife and I both drove a Scion xD and she was really gung ho about it until she drove it. She said it was the worst car she has ever driven and she had so much trouble with the manual that she had me drive it back from the test drive. I had a few complaints but nothing severe, rubbery vague shifter, awful steering but smooth riding on the highway. The Fit while underpowered was miles better at everything it just needed more power for the highway.
So we ended up buying a Civic instead.
She loves it even tho it cost me a bundle more.
I hope the new Fit has a few more ponies for the highway because we are all rural roads and highways here.
So we ended up buying a Civic instead."
With the roads and distances we drive in the US that has been a big question I have asked about these new sub compacts from the beginning. The Civic just about had the consumers power requirement nailed so knowing that one would have thought a few more ponies would have been a big help for the Fit.
She wanted a fun car so she cheated and got and Si which I got for $21K OTD with only a $400 dealer fee included in that. I could have whined about the price but they were really good to us.
The Fit was great but just wasn't comfortable enough the power was ok in town but on the highway it fell flat.
The other cars we drove like the Scion xD were just too awful to consider seriously. Prius was too gutless as well. It was great on the highway but no power to get onto the highway and it's similar enough in shape to the gas swilling Si that my wife fell in love with.
I like sub com[pacts but up here they need more power and snow tires.
As for Dodge I was under the impression that they are working closely with Chery Motors on the development of the Hornet. It will take them a while to get to U.S.specs for emissions and safety, too. Chery is really emphasizing the fact that they want to do it right and take the time that's necessary to do the car right. A lot of the Chinese manufacturers are saying that right now.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I believe BMW announced something along those lines the other day at the Detroit show.
iluv: I think Chrysler is on very shaky ground. We may yet see them sold again, or enter some other kind of crisis, before these Chinese cars ever make it to Chrysler/Dodge showrooms.
As for Verve, I thought Ford announced that it would sell the next-gen Fiesta here in 2010, and I am wondering how both models would fit in the line-up.
BTW everyone: I believe it was made official this week or last that subcompacts were far and away the fastest-growing segment of auto sales in 2007. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Seemed like people started talking diesel 2 years ago, where are they? Two more years? In two year we'll still be saying two more years.
The Verve is the next-generation Fiesta. This car will also be sold in Europe - either under the Fiesta nameplate, or a new one. I've heard that it will be called either the Verve or the Fiesta here in the U.S.
Personally, I think "Verve" is a little too close to "Versa" for comfort.
It will not, however, be built in the U.S. Alan Mullaly has said that Ford cannot build this car in the U.S. (it will be priced below the Focus) and make a profit on it.
What we all saw at the Detroit Auto Show is "90 percent of what the production car will be," according to insiders. I really like the Verve, but the 10 percent that changes for the production version concerns me...
I concur, and I can't get anyone to confirm if the US gets the hatch or not.
Need the info.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick