I am surprised that your Aveo only gets low 30s on the highway.
It has averaged 32.5 with 70-80% highway (55-65 mpg) and the rest urban/suburban. Since I only drive secondary roads now, it's dropped to low to mid-20s with a light foot. Would probably do better on extended highway trip with no stops.
t has averaged 32.5 with 70-80% highway (55-65 mpg) and the rest urban/suburban. Since I only drive secondary roads now, it's dropped to low to mid-20s with a light foot. Would probably do better on extended highway trip with no stops.
Wow, that is actually behind what I am getting with the Accord EX 4 cyl/manual.
Oh, and I just got back from a road trip in a Prius, logging about 900 miles in 2 days. Mostly highway. The trip computer said 44, odometer/calculator said 38. Oh, and the manual says to fill up when it gets to 2 bars so we had to keep stopping to get 8 gallons of gas.
Aveo might be a classic example of a car that is created to be cheap but not necessarily fuel efficient. Looks like it does no better than my TL, which goes a lot faster than 55-65 mph on highways.
There lies the problem with the Korean small cars. The quality feel of the interior masks the still low tech everything else. Eventually, they'll work it out. But right now, I'm going Japaneza.
After owning many "sports cars" of all sizes, I'm truly enjoying my 2008 Yaris "S" 2-door hatchback. At 6'3" I find it very comfortable with lots of head room, leg room, and very nice sport seats. The 1.5 liter, 106hp engine provides very good acceleration as the car only weighs 2,240lbs. Power door locks, mirrors, and windows provide convenience. In the rear 60/40 split rear seats which move fore and aft, as well as fold flat, provide lots of room to carry large packages loaded through the hatch. At an avg of 35 mpg in town and 44 on the freeway I could not be happier.
I kind of got the impression podred meant to point out how much more stretch-out room and utility he had in the Yaris vs the sports cars he/she has owned in the past, while still having a fun, peppy ride.
Am I reading too much into his/her remarks?! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You are correct, I find the Yaris right in the "sweet spot" of small sporty cars. For quite a number of reasons.
I have a large collection of sports cars of all sizes. So, my only point is to share with the readers my experience and opinion of the Yaris and how it measures up with the others overall. For a blazing fast, fun & attention demanding car in the size class of the Yaris, my 2005 Mini Cooper S is tops. However at the price of a stiff ride, loud engine, uncomfortable hard sport seats, razor sharp steering that you have to constantly "steer". A "weekend ride" at more than twice the price, frequent maintenance that's very pricey (BMW built it...) and everything right down to the tires is quite expensive. Worth it, but more of a specialty car, weekend, track-day car.
When driven fast the Mini is great, but realistically that's not how we drive most of the time. That is just another reason the Yaris is so ideal. When driven in stop and go traffic it's easy to maneuver, during other in town driving it's positively delightful, and when driven briskly on winding roads, it's right there, quite fun. On the freeway it drives like a much larger car. Very relaxed, centered, & comfortable for miles and miles. Not bumpy and stiff like the Mini.
And this is the precise reason I find the Yaris such a great car. It's an incredible bargain which in many cases causes some people to overlook the car. It's as though because of the low price it may be perceived by some as a cheap entry level car. It's the sedan, positioned below the Corolla that adds to this perception. However that said, if one sets the price aside, & simply evaluate the car on it's own merits, I find this one incredible automobile.
The strengths and advantages of the 2 door Yaris S are many. It's made in Japan so the quality is legendary Toyota. It's small on the outside and very large on the inside, a car you must drive to experience & really appreciate. The car easily seats four adjusts which shocked me, as the back seat in the Mini is so small that only kids younger than 8 car fit. There are three glove compartments, many compartments of all sizes for storage, and five cup holders. The layout of the drivers position is perfect with enough adjustments to find a good position for people of all sizes. I really like the gauges on the top center of the dash, as you do not have to look down to see them and they are not obstructed by the steering wheel. Well finished, with high quality cloth upholstery it's a great interior.
The 1.5 liter engine is a gem. One that is proven after years of use in several other Toyota models, if offers very peppy performance while returning great fuel economy. The automatic trans is very smooth responsive and has the computer controlled system which prevents it from "hunting" for the right gear while climbing and incline, and conversely, will automatically down shift to provide engine braking on a descent. The type of transmission performance normally reserved for cars at more than twice the price. Plus with a gated shift lever, one can shift it manually for a more interactive, fun experience.
Handling of this car is also right in the middle, comfortable yet has some body lean (not excessive) while still being stiff enough to provide good feedback through the steering wheel. The brakes are quite good and the tire life promises to be very long. As an ex sports car racer of many years, this car continues to amaze me for how good it is, especially at this price point. Well built, very solid, substantial, and a good investment for your automotive dollar.
The overall description I give this car is one that is a great combination of fun, practicality, roominess, sportiness, and very low cost to own and drive.
I hope these observations and comments are useful to those of you who have yet to decide on purchasing one. I highly endorse this car.
And the advantages over a Corolla are? I see the Corolla S has 126 HP and gets 41 MPG Highway. The Yaris S is 106 HP and gets 40 MPG highway.
Realize I am skeptical of many of the sub compacts because they don't offer enough over their slightly bigger siblings. But if you have a 2008 coupe how does the room compare with the Corolla S? And you are probably correct I do tend to smirk at the S on the back of a Toyota. It hardly represents what the SI does on a Honda or spec on the back of a Sentra or a Mazda Speed on a Mazda.
Toyota and Honda are moving their model lines upward. The Civic and Corolla are going to move in where the Accord and Camry of old used to be. So the advantage of getting a Yaris Sedan now may not be as clear except for the $2000 cheaper price. Calling a Yaris sedan a subcompact is somewhat confusing. It's the same size as a Sentra that is considered a compact. A Versa sedan hatch is the size of a Matrix. I bought a Yaris Hatch because it was a hatch. It was $3000 cheaper than a base Civic. It was cute. Gets great gas mileage. Fun to drive. 0-60 in 9 seconds is not bad for an automatic. Great reliabitlity rep. So there you go. Don't hate because it's a Toyota.
Oh I don't hate Toyotas. I don't even hate Hatchbacks. I just don't see how a Yaris should get less highway mileage than a Corolla. If I were going to have to live with a smaller engine I would expect it to get much better fuel mileage. All I was saying was the S on the back of a Toyota doesn't represent the same thing as the SI on the back of a Honda or the Type R. Sporty and Toyota have not been words we equate to Toyota for a few years. And I noticed Edmunds didn't give them a stellar rating for the 2007 Yaris. The say it is adequate at 6.9 while they call Corolla Good at 7.8. I have seen more Versas and I will admit I am impressed with the room they have but again they are hardly a sub compact in reality.
You may be right however that the Yaris isn't a true sub compact. And that is what may be wrong with most of the new sub compacts. Very few of them are smaller than a Civic, Sentra, or Corolla. However I do think of Toyotas as dependable and place them and Honda on most list. of Cars I would consider. In a year or two I may once again consider a Compact car but I want to see what happens when they bring small diesels into the market. As for now I am still looking to replace my Truck.
Smaller engines won't always give better gas mileage. A lot depends on how hard they have to work, or more accurately, how they are geared by the differential. The Yaris is probably geared to be very peppy in initial acceleration, but when it gets up to the higher freeway speeds, no doubt that engine is spinning pretty good.
If you geared it like a Corolla, with the smaller engine and an automatic, it might just be too slow, but if you put the Corolla engine in it, you're going to have to a) charge more for it and b) beef it up to take the extra power.
Yaris is a compromise, balancing first of all a great price with decent performance, great interior design, and the hatchback styling.
If a better Yaris could be built, Toyota would have built it.
Who got that result? The last test I saw of an automatic Yaris was by Motor Trend (known for doing everything possible to get the fastest time possible) and they got well over 10 seconds to 60 MPH.
I'm not saying any of these vehicles are rockets, but the Yaris getting 0-60 under 10 sec with an automatic is something I just haven't seen.
The Yaris is probably geared to be very peppy in initial acceleration, but when it gets up to the higher freeway speeds, no doubt that engine is spinning pretty good.
The same Motor Trend I mentioned in the above post shows the Yaris automatic to be spinning at 2500 RPM/60MPH. In comparision, the Versa, with its CVT runs at 2050 RPM.
Smaller engines won't always give better gas mileage. A lot depends on how hard they have to work, or more accurately, how they are geared by the differential.
Yep, my '83 GTI, 1.8 l, 90 HP, got 25 mpg regardless because of its short gearing. I remember something like 3000 + rpm at highway speed.
That's not too bad, The automatics are, I believe, geared more for economy than the stickshifts. At least this was true of the Scion xA, which has the same running gear.
Of course, in California, 60 mph will get you rear-ended or pushed into a ditch. You have to do 70 mph at least to stay alive, and that probably brings the RPM up to 3300 or so I'd guess. That's not loafing.
Some automatic Subarus still let you do that, i.e. insert a fuse to make them FWD.
It's only meant to be used for short periods, though, e.g. when being towed behind a motor home or when you have a flat tire. It is not meant to be used as a fuel saving measure, at least not nowadays.
I'm with shifty - gearing is key! My 3.5l minivan has returned 34mpg on a highway trip at about 55mph. Tall gearing means it's barely humming along at less than 1500 rpm, probably running a bit lean on fuel when it can, too.
Here ya go. This is a test of the Yaris sedan Auto. I got the hatch which is a smaller, lighter car. Watch and you may want a Yaris too. Funny how the magazines only compare the Yaris sedan with the Fit hatch when doing track tests. Hmmm.
Honda gives you control of the shifting with the paddles. Toyota gives you control with the gated shifter. Mazda has the best manumatic shifter of the bunch. The Yaris, when left to the computers, will shift for mileage. The Yaris is also the lightest of the bunch which helps mileage too.
Actually, the XD's gas mileage is pretty dog gone impressive. 36 mpg in mixed driving is what the Yaris gets. That XD's styling is getting better too. Hmmm. Yaris or XD. Oh man I can't decide.
how does the gated shifter help give control more than a conventional automatic shifter? In my Honda I have a straight line auto shifter that allows manual selection of gears one and two, then a drive (d3) and overdrive type setup.
Yep, you are correct sir. It's so simple I don't know why more cars didn't do it. The 2009 Corolla has the gating. The feel of the shifting is also really good. Remember the bad ol' days when the shifter was on the stalk on the steering wheel? Yikes.
In all the years I commuted from Riverside to LA with friends driving automatics I can still count the number of people that used anything but drive and reverse with their automatics on one hand without using my thumb. The automatic paddle shifters are a nice touch however. In a small car they take up less room. Something a small car needs all it can get. Still It seems the Corolla with more power and just a touch better highway mileage would be better as a road car. Not as good as a mid sized car but but better than something with such a short wheel base.
As a city car the Yaris would do about as well as any of the small cars. Like Edmunds said, nothing special but it would meet the basic needs. I do still have a problem with the gages being in the center. But that is from years of having the speedometer right in front of me.
I learned on a 56 Chevy with a three on the tree. We still had drivers ED and because I had driven with my Dad and had a permit I was relegated to the older car with the stick. Today they don't teach drivers ED in school and very few care to learn to drive stick.
When I purchased my 08 Yaris S Coupe, I also purchased an 08 Corolla Sedan for my wife. Both cars are 4 speed automatics. We trade off every two weeks just for fun. I commute 58 miles round trip to work mostly freeway, she commutes just 6 miles in town.
Prior performing a fuel economy comparison test, we ran them until they each had some break-in miles. In this case the Yaris had 1,215 and the Corolla had 1,290 when I began testing.
I recorded the mpg on my commute for each of the cars and was very careful to drive in an identical fashion. Also I drove with the flow of traffic accelerating the same and maintaining 72 mph which is my normal freeway speed. I did not baby either car or make an effort to save fuel, as I wanted a real world result with me driving as I normally do.
To insure the best possible accuracy I refueled both cars at the same station, using the same pump. I performed this test three times on each car so as to have an average, again in the interest of accuracy.
Here is the result: 1st place: Yaris = 40 mpg 2nd place: Corolla = 34 mpg
For me, this is a very satisfactory result and is more than twice the fuel economy we were getting with the daily drivers that were replaced by these two. Also we experienced a 52% percent savings on the insurance for our two new Toyota daily drivers. The total cost reduction was far greater than I anticipated. A very pleasant result. I am completely satisfied and could not be happier with these two.
Excuse my ignorance, but why exactly does the Yaris 3dr, either base or S model, get ignored all the time when tested against the Fit and other similar machines such as the Accent SE or even the Rio SX5 in magazines? Bummer! I'd once like to see the 3dr get reviewed in a comparo test... :confuse: What's your spin on this?
My question is why the American media want us to believe that the Honda Fit is the best subcompact out there when the numbers don't bare that out. The Yaris wins on acceleration, braking, steering feel, fuel mileage, price, crash test and comfort. The Fit has a better dash and flippy back seats. The foreigners picked the Yaris over the Fit. So why do the American media want us to buy the Fit over the Yaris? It's obvious why they never compare hatchback with hatchback. The Yaris would completely embarrass the Fit. Maybe they don't want Toyota to have too much glory in 2007. Who knows. Then there's that insane bit about Toyota losing it's quality and Ford is tops. What crap is this?
Toyota's interior quality is pathetic compared to where it was 10 years ago. Ford's is great compared to what it was 10 years ago. Neither lead or fall to the bottom, but times they-are-a-changin. And I drive Japanese!
I have seen at least one auto mag comparison that included a Yaris hatchback, back before there was an 'S'. But since the 'S' is only an equipment package, I feel the comparative driving results would also be valid for the 'S' today. (They did drive a car with convenience package, so it had the 15" rims).
The Yaris came third out of four in that one. I believe it beat out the Accent, but the Rio came second. The Fit won.
Steering feel is something Toyota hasn't been good at in a very long time, and having driven Yaris and Fit back to back, I would have to say that Honda is MILES ahead of Toyota in this category. The media will always choose the driver's car, which is why they have hyped the Fit so much. I would call it the enthusiast's choice between the two, but of course Yaris has many things on its side, most of which you named: price, fuel economy, comfort, acceleration in a straight line (but you can forget the slalom, where the Fit will win hands down), and braking.
I applaud Yaris for still being the American non-hybrid model with the highest fuel economy available, but the choice between these two models is clear: one is "sensible shoes", and one is "fun". I would take the Fit if I had to choose, but right now I have chosen neither, but rather to keep my Echo instead. If the next Fit can get its emissions way down, and its fuel economy up to Yaris levels, it will be my next new car. Otherwise, I will hold out hope that they will put a stick shift in the Honda hybrid sporty car they plan to release for 2010.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yep, my '83 GTI, 1.8 l, 90 HP, got 25 mpg regardless because of its short gearing. I remember something like 3000 + rpm at highway speed.
3,000 rpm at 60mph is pretty standard for four-cylinder cars. I've driven cars from 1.3L to 2.5L and that's the typical engine speed in top gear at 60 mph. Six cyilnder cars tend to be in the low-to-mid 2,000 range while V8s are usually in the high teens. I don't think the "short gearing" of the GTI had much to do with the top gear engine speed.
I always wanted a sixth ratio in my Suzuki Swift GT so that I could get the engine to lope along at 70mph, where the engine spins at 3,400rpm, or so. It still turns 35mpg in daily driving, but I just wanted 45-ish on the highway.
3,000 rpm at 60mph is pretty standard for four-cylinder cars. I've driven cars from 1.3L to 2.5L and that's the typical engine speed in top gear at 60 mph.
3000 at 60 MPH seems awfully short. My old 4-speed 2.2L 4-cyl Accord runs 2350 RPM at 60 MPH. My dad's 1.8L Civic runs 1950 RPM or so at 60 MPH. My 2.4L Accord runs similar to the 1.8L Civic, right at 2000 RPM at 60 MPH.
The Mazda 3 is the only vehicle I can think of with gearing that is close to being that short.
Regarding the American media raving over the Fit and all but ignoring the Yaris, first one must understand the publishing business and the influence of the advertisers. Toyota does a lot of advertising but does not "expect" anything in return other than seeing their ad. Honda on the other hand rides on the edge of unethical, passing favors to the editors and road testers. I know this as I have friends at the top level of that business. Honda also leans on it's dealers to push certain models, to the point of holding out on shipping them the current "hot model" so as to motivate them to sell what Honda wants them to sell. So I'm not trashing Honda, just sharing what I know. Especially since I like both Honda and Toyota products.
That said, what's important is what "we think" about the various models and vote with our wallets. Here is my take. And from the perspective of being (with all due modesty) very experienced, as I am not only and ex racer of 30 years, but an enthusiast that buys several new cars a year, I would offer the following.
A bit of background, I currently own the following cars in this general category: 1) 2007 Honda Civic Coupe Si. 2) 2006 Mini Cooper S hatchback 3) 2008 Yaris S hatchback
After doing a lot of research, then going out to the dealers and road testing several Fit's and Yaris's over a period of a month, I found the Yaris has the features that fit my requirements the best. What were my requirements? Sporty looking. Two doors a must. Good ergonomic seating position, with good leg room as I'm 6'3". The right "balance of handling, acceleration, and braking.
It also must be noted that I have set my expectations according to the reality, and characteristics of each car. I.E. These are not true "Sports Performance Cars" , but rather a pair of cars that are designed to appeal to a very broad customer base, and mostly be inexpensive. The "Fun Factor" is a bit higher on Honda's priority list than on Toyota's. This is revealed in the massive growth of Toyota over the last decade and their world class success as a manufacturer. Many people have no idea just how large Toyota is and how well the company is run. Honda is much smaller, also well run but broken up into several divisions. Power Products, which sell boat motors, generators, lawn mowers, etc. Honda Aviation which sells the new Honda Jet, Honda Motor Sports, which sell the ATV's quads, and motorcycles.
Back to my thoughts and experience comparing the Fit with the Yaris. While I enjoyed the fun of driving a Fit, there were many things that I did not like (and many features I did like), that again, is nothing more than personal opinion and what I wanted in the car I would be choosing. I did not like the "station wagon look" of the four door body style and I have no use for four doors, nor the extra length. Conversely many people do have requirements for four doors, thus I can see the appeal and the sales numbers support the fact nearly any model if offered in a sedan or wagon form factor, will sell a much higher number of vehicles.
The second thing I did not like about the fit which one will only discover if you do a back to back road test, or tests, as I did, is the power band of the Honda engine is at a higher rpm range than the Toyota. For me this was not a surprise as I have raced Honda road race motorcycles and am very familiar with how Honda builds their engines. An example of that is my 07 Honda Si Coupe, a car which has very little torque and power until you exceed 5,000 rpm after which it comes into the power band and rockets off. Fun to drive on the track or back roads but just average as a daily driver in traffic, or when constantly accelerating from 0 to 40 as we do in city driving. Compare that to my Mini Cooper S which has all the torque delivered beginning at 1600 rpm. This car is a rocket from the moment you press the accelerator. It's more fun to drive in town than my 911 Turbo Porsche. Again in the "in town" type of regular driving. As far as the Fit vs Yaris, the Yaris has better "off idle" response, more torque at a lower rpm and provides a snappier feeling of acceleration off a stop while accelerating to 40 mph as compared to the Fit which is rather soft and slow under the same conditions. A small point to some, but a big point to me, as I like to have a car that feels lively at less that full throttle, when being driven in town.
Another benefit of the Yaris for me, is that you sit higher up in the vehicle which is nice for visibility in town. Especially since I already have the Mini and the Si, both of which are low slung and sit lower, thus feeling a bit sportier in that regard. Moving on to steering I find there is far too much critical banter going on and on about how superior Honda steering is. I will be the first to agree there is a difference and the Honda is the best, but the difference is so minuscule that only people like me and the road testers would notice the difference, and like I mentioned in the beginning of my post, I'm taking everything into consideration and each cars unique characteristics. I can assure you that the steering on the Yaris is very good and certainly much better than a lot of other cars in the segment. Plus again, we are not racing here, we are buying economy cars that are being offered at prices which prevent them from having everything we might wish to have. In fact, setting price aside, that could be said for any comparison. All cars are a compromise of choices, features and benefits.
So in my experience, these are both very good cars which quite frankly are excellent deals when purchase price is focused on. I purchased the Yaris because I found it to be the most fun to drive around town under normal conditions (not racing around) and to be more relaxed and less frenetic than the Honda which required a lot more throttle to keep up with traffic. The Yaris has very good acceleration from a dead stop, thus is more fun to drive.
At the end of the day I would encourage all of you to take your time and do at least one or more back to back test drives. This way you will find the car that is the best for you. Neither of these cars are losers. They are each the "best", it's simply up to you to find which one fits your needs accordingly.
The "Fun Factor" is a bit higher on Honda's priority list than on Toyota's.
That's the understatement of the year. Toyotas are typically as exciting to drive as dishwashers. Any Toyota I've ever driven (Two Lexus vehicles, a Corolla and Camry) has had zero steering feel. Great for grandma, but not for me - I felt too disconnected and had too little control. It's no driver's car, and certainly not fun.
Until you can post some proof about Honda's unethical practices, I'll be ignoring statements regarding that. It's just heresay and I've never seen proof of it, not that it matters (I bought what I liked, not what I was told to like ).
I can't help but wonder - if you indeed have all of the cars you state - why? Vehicles like the Yaris are pretty pointless when you have two other inexpensive sporty cars - one with a hatch, one in coupe form.
yes, I am also curious - how come you have three such similar vehicles? I can actually see having a Yaris and one of the other two, given the contrast in ride comfort and height, etc. I guess mainly it seems a little redundant to have a Civic SI AND a Cooper S. Do tell - are they very different drives besides the torque curves?
As for Fit v Yaris, I hear you on the very broad torque peak of the Toyota 1.5. The Fit is an old model at this point, STILL not outfitted with i-VTEC. I expect the next Fit, due in the States late this year, to have it, and to have a much flatter torque curve as a result.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think you make an interesting point and one that might be at the dividing point of this forum. The needs of the consumer when it comes to a small car. I live in the mountains and do very little city driving. If I drive off of the mountain I am going somewhere that requires some freeway time. For me a city car isn't as ideal as it might be for you.
But I will confess the mini-mini van look of the Fit isn't my favorite. I do like the Mazda3 Hatch however.
That's the understatement of the year. Toyotas are typically as exciting to drive as dishwashers. Any Toyota I've ever driven (Two Lexus vehicles, a Corolla and Camry) has had zero steering feel.
But that's partially the Toyota products you're driving. I'm not saying that Toyota builds wildly sporty cars, but the competition in the market of most Lexus models, the Corolla, and the Camry aren't very sporting either.
Models like the Lexus IS and Toyota MR2 are much more sporty (and sporty-feeling) than the more mainstream models you've mentioned.
3,000 rpm at 60mph is pretty standard for four-cylinder cars.
That seems a bit high to me. The 2000 Accent 5-speed manual does about 2700 rpm at 60 mph, though the newer Hyundai (and Kia) manuals are geared quite a bit shorter these days so those probably do pull 3000+.
The only 4-cylinder cars I have ever had that revved to 3000 rpm at 60- were the sport models - an '02 Celica and a couple of older Honda SI models.
I have had quite a number of more economy-minded 4-cylinder cars as well, which with the advent of 5 forward speeds around 1980 would run around 2400-2600 rpm at 60 mph. This includes both of my current cars.
I would STILL like to see 6 speeds in these cars, including a tall overdrive that runs about 2000 rpm at 60-65 mph. So they would haev to shift to accelerate - that's the point of having a multi-speed transmission! And then I think these models would get better highway gas mileage than they now do.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't think the fortwo is going to beat the Yaris on mpg in the real world. Research seems to indicate it's neck and neck at best. And in terms of utility, power, price, dealer network and resale, I don't think Yaris has to worry.
I don't think we'll see 6-speed manuals in non-sporty compacts and subs. The typical nonenthusiast American wouldn't want to deal with the pull rings and plunger shifters to get into reverse, and would balk at having to downshift to accelerate quickly. Six-speed auto could be a possibility, but at that point CVTs become more economical for the manufacturers.
Europeans get by with 5-speeds in those cars because they have diesel options with enough torque to accelerate even with the tall overdrive and final gears.
Comments
It has averaged 32.5 with 70-80% highway (55-65 mpg) and the rest urban/suburban. Since I only drive secondary roads now, it's dropped to low to mid-20s with a light foot. Would probably do better on extended highway trip with no stops.
Wow, that is actually behind what I am getting with the Accord EX 4 cyl/manual.
Oh, and I just got back from a road trip in a Prius, logging about 900 miles in 2 days. Mostly highway. The trip computer said 44, odometer/calculator said 38. Oh, and the manual says to fill up when it gets to 2 bars so we had to keep stopping to get 8 gallons of gas.
Am I reading too much into his/her remarks?! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I have a large collection of sports cars of all sizes. So, my only point is to share with the readers my experience and opinion of the Yaris and how it measures up with the others overall. For a blazing fast, fun & attention demanding car in the size class of the Yaris, my 2005 Mini Cooper S is tops. However at the price of a stiff ride, loud engine, uncomfortable hard sport seats, razor sharp steering that you have to constantly "steer". A "weekend ride" at more than twice the price, frequent maintenance that's very pricey (BMW built it...) and everything right down to the tires is quite expensive. Worth it, but more of a specialty car, weekend, track-day car.
When driven fast the Mini is great, but realistically that's not how we drive most of the time. That is just another reason the Yaris is so ideal. When driven in stop and go traffic it's easy to maneuver, during other in town driving it's positively delightful, and when driven briskly on winding roads, it's right there, quite fun. On the freeway it drives like a much larger car. Very relaxed, centered, & comfortable for miles and miles. Not bumpy and stiff like the Mini.
And this is the precise reason I find the Yaris such a great car. It's an incredible bargain which in many cases causes some people to overlook the car. It's as though because of the low price it may be perceived by some as a cheap entry level car. It's the sedan, positioned below the Corolla that adds to this perception. However that said, if one sets the price aside, & simply evaluate the car on it's own merits, I find this one incredible automobile.
The strengths and advantages of the 2 door Yaris S are many. It's made in Japan so the quality is legendary Toyota. It's small on the outside and very large on the inside, a car you must drive to experience & really appreciate. The car easily seats four adjusts which shocked me, as the back seat in the Mini is so small that only kids younger than 8 car fit. There are three glove compartments, many compartments of all sizes for storage, and five cup holders. The layout of the drivers position is perfect with enough adjustments to find a good position for people of all sizes. I really like the gauges on the top center of the dash, as you do not have to look down to see them and they are not obstructed by the steering wheel. Well finished, with high quality cloth upholstery it's a great interior.
The 1.5 liter engine is a gem. One that is proven after years of use in several other Toyota models, if offers very peppy performance while returning great fuel economy. The automatic trans is very smooth responsive and has the computer controlled system which prevents it from "hunting" for the right gear while climbing and incline, and conversely, will automatically down shift to provide engine braking on a descent. The type of transmission performance normally reserved for cars at more than twice the price. Plus with a gated shift lever, one can shift it manually for a more interactive, fun experience.
Handling of this car is also right in the middle, comfortable yet has some body lean (not excessive) while still being stiff enough to provide good feedback through the steering wheel. The brakes are quite good and the tire life promises to be very long. As an ex sports car racer of many years, this car continues to amaze me for how good it is, especially at this price point. Well built, very solid, substantial, and a good investment for your automotive dollar.
The overall description I give this car is one that is a great combination of fun, practicality, roominess, sportiness, and very low cost to own and drive.
I hope these observations and comments are useful to those of you who have yet to decide on purchasing one. I highly endorse this car.
Realize I am skeptical of many of the sub compacts because they don't offer enough over their slightly bigger siblings. But if you have a 2008 coupe how does the room compare with the Corolla S? And you are probably correct I do tend to smirk at the S on the back of a Toyota. It hardly represents what the SI does on a Honda or spec on the back of a Sentra or a Mazda Speed on a Mazda.
You may be right however that the Yaris isn't a true sub compact. And that is what may be wrong with most of the new sub compacts. Very few of them are smaller than a Civic, Sentra, or Corolla. However I do think of Toyotas as dependable and place them and Honda on most list. of Cars I would consider. In a year or two I may once again consider a Compact car but I want to see what happens when they bring small diesels into the market. As for now I am still looking to replace my Truck.
If you geared it like a Corolla, with the smaller engine and an automatic, it might just be too slow, but if you put the Corolla engine in it, you're going to have to a) charge more for it and b) beef it up to take the extra power.
Yaris is a compromise, balancing first of all a great price with decent performance, great interior design, and the hatchback styling.
If a better Yaris could be built, Toyota would have built it.
They probably are building it, actually.
Who got that result? The last test I saw of an automatic Yaris was by Motor Trend (known for doing everything possible to get the fastest time possible) and they got well over 10 seconds to 60 MPH.
I'm not saying any of these vehicles are rockets, but the Yaris getting 0-60 under 10 sec with an automatic is something I just haven't seen.
The same Motor Trend I mentioned in the above post shows the Yaris automatic to be spinning at 2500 RPM/60MPH. In comparision, the Versa, with its CVT runs at 2050 RPM.
Yep, my '83 GTI, 1.8 l, 90 HP, got 25 mpg regardless because of its short gearing. I remember something like 3000 + rpm at highway speed.
Of course, in California, 60 mph will get you rear-ended or pushed into a ditch. You have to do 70 mph at least to stay alive, and that probably brings the RPM up to 3300 or so I'd guess. That's not loafing.
It's only meant to be used for short periods, though, e.g. when being towed behind a motor home or when you have a flat tire. It is not meant to be used as a fuel saving measure, at least not nowadays.
I'm with shifty - gearing is key! My 3.5l minivan has returned 34mpg on a highway trip at about 55mph. Tall gearing means it's barely humming along at less than 1500 rpm, probably running a bit lean on fuel when it can, too.
http://www.cars.com/go/video/player.jsp?makeid=47&year=2007&modelid=8242&locatio- - n=MW_L_2007_Toyota_Yaris.flv&aff=national
I sort of like the xA replacement, the xD, but not too fond of the poorer fuel mileage, in comparison.
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Actually, the XD's gas mileage is pretty dog gone impressive. 36 mpg in mixed driving is what the Yaris gets. That XD's styling is getting better too. Hmmm. Yaris or XD. Oh man I can't decide.
do it. The 2009 Corolla has the gating. The feel of the shifting is also really good.
Remember the bad ol' days when the shifter was on the stalk on the steering wheel? Yikes.
As a city car the Yaris would do about as well as any of the small cars. Like Edmunds said, nothing special but it would meet the basic needs. I do still have a problem with the gages being in the center. But that is from years of having the speedometer right in front of me.
Prior performing a fuel economy comparison test, we ran them until they each had some break-in miles. In this case the Yaris had 1,215 and the Corolla had 1,290 when I began testing.
I recorded the mpg on my commute for each of the cars and was very careful to drive in an identical fashion. Also I drove with the flow of traffic accelerating the same and maintaining 72 mph which is my normal freeway speed. I did not baby either car or make an effort to save fuel, as I wanted a real world result with me driving as I normally do.
To insure the best possible accuracy I refueled both cars at the same station, using the same pump. I performed this test three times on each car so as to have an average, again in the interest of accuracy.
Here is the result:
1st place: Yaris = 40 mpg
2nd place: Corolla = 34 mpg
For me, this is a very satisfactory result and is more than twice the fuel economy we were getting with the daily drivers that were replaced by these two. Also we experienced a 52% percent savings on the insurance for our two new Toyota daily drivers. The total cost reduction was far greater than I anticipated. A very pleasant result. I am completely satisfied and could not be happier with these two.
Excuse my ignorance, but why exactly does the Yaris 3dr, either base or S model, get ignored all the time when tested against the Fit and other similar machines such as the Accent SE or even the Rio SX5 in magazines? Bummer! I'd once like to see the 3dr get reviewed in a comparo test... :confuse: What's your spin on this?
Good 2008 to ya...
Peace!<-AladdinSane-<- :shades: -
The Yaris came third out of four in that one. I believe it beat out the Accent, but the Rio came second. The Fit won.
Steering feel is something Toyota hasn't been good at in a very long time, and having driven Yaris and Fit back to back, I would have to say that Honda is MILES ahead of Toyota in this category. The media will always choose the driver's car, which is why they have hyped the Fit so much. I would call it the enthusiast's choice between the two, but of course Yaris has many things on its side, most of which you named: price, fuel economy, comfort, acceleration in a straight line (but you can forget the slalom, where the Fit will win hands down), and braking.
I applaud Yaris for still being the American non-hybrid model with the highest fuel economy available, but the choice between these two models is clear: one is "sensible shoes", and one is "fun". I would take the Fit if I had to choose, but right now I have chosen neither, but rather to keep my Echo instead. If the next Fit can get its emissions way down, and its fuel economy up to Yaris levels, it will be my next new car. Otherwise, I will hold out hope that they will put a stick shift in the Honda hybrid sporty car they plan to release for 2010.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
3,000 rpm at 60mph is pretty standard for four-cylinder cars. I've driven cars from 1.3L to 2.5L and that's the typical engine speed in top gear at 60 mph. Six cyilnder cars tend to be in the low-to-mid 2,000 range while V8s are usually in the high teens. I don't think the "short gearing" of the GTI had much to do with the top gear engine speed.
I always wanted a sixth ratio in my Suzuki Swift GT so that I could get the engine to lope along at 70mph, where the engine spins at 3,400rpm, or so. It still turns 35mpg in daily driving, but I just wanted 45-ish on the highway.
3000 at 60 MPH seems awfully short. My old 4-speed 2.2L 4-cyl Accord runs 2350 RPM at 60 MPH. My dad's 1.8L Civic runs 1950 RPM or so at 60 MPH. My 2.4L Accord runs similar to the 1.8L Civic, right at 2000 RPM at 60 MPH.
The Mazda 3 is the only vehicle I can think of with gearing that is close to being that short.
That said, what's important is what "we think" about the various models and vote with our wallets. Here is my take. And from the perspective of being (with all due modesty) very experienced, as I am not only and ex racer of 30 years, but an enthusiast that buys several new cars a year, I would offer the following.
A bit of background, I currently own the following cars in this general category:
1) 2007 Honda Civic Coupe Si.
2) 2006 Mini Cooper S hatchback
3) 2008 Yaris S hatchback
After doing a lot of research, then going out to the dealers and road testing several Fit's and Yaris's over a period of a month, I found the Yaris has the features that fit my requirements the best. What were my requirements? Sporty looking. Two doors a must. Good ergonomic seating position, with good leg room as I'm 6'3". The right "balance of handling, acceleration, and braking.
It also must be noted that I have set my expectations according to the reality, and characteristics of each car. I.E. These are not true "Sports Performance Cars" , but rather a pair of cars that are designed to appeal to a very broad customer base, and mostly be inexpensive. The "Fun Factor" is a bit higher on Honda's priority list than on Toyota's. This is revealed in the massive growth of Toyota over the last decade and their world class success as a manufacturer. Many people have no idea just how large Toyota is and how well the company is run. Honda is much smaller, also well run but broken up into several divisions. Power Products, which sell boat motors, generators, lawn mowers, etc. Honda Aviation which sells the new Honda Jet, Honda Motor Sports, which sell the ATV's quads, and motorcycles.
Back to my thoughts and experience comparing the Fit with the Yaris.
While I enjoyed the fun of driving a Fit, there were many things that I did not like (and many features I did like), that again, is nothing more than personal opinion and what I wanted in the car I would be choosing. I did not like the "station wagon look" of the four door body style and I have no use for four doors, nor the extra length. Conversely many people do have requirements for four doors, thus I can see the appeal and the sales numbers support the fact nearly any model if offered in a sedan or wagon form factor, will sell a much higher number of vehicles.
The second thing I did not like about the fit which one will only discover if you do a back to back road test, or tests, as I did, is the power band of the Honda engine is at a higher rpm range than the Toyota. For me this was not a surprise as I have raced Honda road race motorcycles and am very familiar with how Honda builds their engines. An example of that is my 07 Honda Si Coupe, a car which has very little torque and power until you exceed 5,000 rpm after which it comes into the power band and rockets off. Fun to drive on the track or back roads but just average as a daily driver in traffic, or when constantly accelerating from 0 to 40 as we do in city driving. Compare that to my Mini Cooper S which has all the torque delivered beginning at 1600 rpm. This car is a rocket from the moment you press the accelerator. It's more fun to drive in town than my 911 Turbo Porsche. Again in the "in town" type of regular driving. As far as the Fit vs Yaris, the Yaris has better "off idle" response, more torque at a lower rpm and provides a snappier feeling of acceleration off a stop while accelerating to 40 mph as compared to the Fit which is rather soft and slow under the same conditions. A small point to some, but a big point to me, as I like to have a car that feels lively at less that full throttle, when being driven in town.
Another benefit of the Yaris for me, is that you sit higher up in the vehicle which is nice for visibility in town. Especially since I already have the Mini and the Si, both of which are low slung and sit lower, thus feeling a bit sportier in that regard. Moving on to steering I find there is far too much critical banter going on and on about how superior Honda steering is. I will be the first to agree there is a difference and the Honda is the best, but the difference is so minuscule that only people like me and the road testers would notice the difference, and like I mentioned in the beginning of my post, I'm taking everything into consideration and each cars unique characteristics. I can assure you that the steering on the Yaris is very good and certainly much better than a lot of other cars in the segment. Plus again, we are not racing here, we are buying economy cars that are being offered at prices which prevent them from having everything we might wish to have. In fact, setting price aside, that could be said for any comparison. All cars are a compromise of choices, features and benefits.
So in my experience, these are both very good cars which quite frankly are excellent deals when purchase price is focused on. I purchased the Yaris because I found it to be the most fun to drive around town under normal conditions (not racing around) and to be more relaxed and less frenetic than the Honda which required a lot more throttle to keep up with traffic. The Yaris has very good acceleration from a dead stop, thus is more fun to drive.
At the end of the day I would encourage all of you to take your time and do at least one or more back to back test drives. This way you will find the car that is the best for you. Neither of these cars are losers. They are each the "best", it's simply up to you to find which one fits your needs accordingly.
That's the understatement of the year. Toyotas are typically as exciting to drive as dishwashers. Any Toyota I've ever driven (Two Lexus vehicles, a Corolla and Camry) has had zero steering feel. Great for grandma, but not for me - I felt too disconnected and had too little control. It's no driver's car, and certainly not fun.
Until you can post some proof about Honda's unethical practices, I'll be ignoring statements regarding that. It's just heresay and I've never seen proof of it, not that it matters (I bought what I liked, not what I was told to like
I can't help but wonder - if you indeed have all of the cars you state - why? Vehicles like the Yaris are pretty pointless when you have two other inexpensive sporty cars - one with a hatch, one in coupe form.
As for Fit v Yaris, I hear you on the very broad torque peak of the Toyota 1.5. The Fit is an old model at this point, STILL not outfitted with i-VTEC. I expect the next Fit, due in the States late this year, to have it, and to have a much flatter torque curve as a result.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But I will confess the mini-mini van look of the Fit isn't my favorite. I do like the Mazda3 Hatch however.
But that's partially the Toyota products you're driving. I'm not saying that Toyota builds wildly sporty cars, but the competition in the market of most Lexus models, the Corolla, and the Camry aren't very sporting either.
Models like the Lexus IS and Toyota MR2 are much more sporty (and sporty-feeling) than the more mainstream models you've mentioned.
That seems a bit high to me. The 2000 Accent 5-speed manual does about 2700 rpm at 60 mph, though the newer Hyundai (and Kia) manuals are geared quite a bit shorter these days so those probably do pull 3000+.
For the next month or three, anyway. The first of the fortwo's have already landed at Baltimore.
The only 4-cylinder cars I have ever had that revved to 3000 rpm at 60- were the sport models - an '02 Celica and a couple of older Honda SI models.
I have had quite a number of more economy-minded 4-cylinder cars as well, which with the advent of 5 forward speeds around 1980 would run around 2400-2600 rpm at 60 mph. This includes both of my current cars.
I would STILL like to see 6 speeds in these cars, including a tall overdrive that runs about 2000 rpm at 60-65 mph. So they would haev to shift to accelerate - that's the point of having a multi-speed transmission! And then I think these models would get better highway gas mileage than they now do.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Europeans get by with 5-speeds in those cars because they have diesel options with enough torque to accelerate even with the tall overdrive and final gears.