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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    I believe the whole Scion effort was aimed at younger drivers with an eye on style rather than performance. The xA was a miss but they scored better with the xB, don't ask me why. The tC was a hit from day one and combined a more traditional style with a reasonable price. It is no stop light rocket but it will get you from point a to point b and look pretty good doing it. I remember some here speculating that it would be the replacement for the Celica but that just didn't happen.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I like the huge glass roof and the price, basically. Plus you can get it in a manual.

    $16k won't buy you much else, unless you go used.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Seems hardly fair to blame the company's product for that.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I remember some here speculating that it would be the replacement for the Celica but that just didn't happen.

    They replaced an overpriced bloated sporty looking car with an inexpensive bloated sporty looking car. That is the Celica's replacement. I would still rather have a Civic, personally.
  • dromedariusdromedarius Member Posts: 307
    They replaced an overpriced bloated sporty looking car with an inexpensive bloated sporty looking car. That is the Celica's replacement. I would still rather have a Civic, personally.

    You've got THAT right. I was so disappointed in the tC. Honda would do it better if they chose to reenter that market. The Prelude was a great car!

    :cry:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    i think that whole market fell apart. In the 90s, cars like the Celica All Trac, Eclipse GST&GSX (and the rest of its Diamond Star friends), the Mazda6 GT/Probe GT, the 'lude, and even the Isuzu Impulse RS all had a lot of technology and offered a lot of performance per dollar in those packages. Now we have the Solara and the Accord sedan, both of which scream Monte Carlo to me.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    I have only had two Honda Cars. One was a early Civic Si and the other a Prelude. The Prelude was by far my favorite. After getting the Civic SI I had wondered if I would have liked the old CRX. Wish I would have given it a shot. My son got the SI and turned it into a rolling Boom Box. The base would pop the back windows open.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    Back in 1996, when I delivered pizzas part time for Little Caesars, one of the kids who worked there had an '87-91 era Civic hatchback. He tricked it out with a killer sound system. Literally. One evening he went on a delivery and it actually killed the car! So I went out and rescued him, and we went to his buddy's house and got a dog chain, went back to the car, tied it to my car with the chain, and dragged it home.

    Aah, the humiliation. A HondaOhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmHonda being dragged home by a 330,000 mile 1968 Dart! :shades: Okay, to be fair, it was this kid's fault for hooking up a sound system that the alternator and battery couldn't keep up with, but still, the irony was kinda cute. :P Kinda like another time when we had three drivers: One of 'em looked kinda like Hyde from "That 70's Show", would giggle over nothing, and drove a Ford Ranger. The other was this emaciated, anti-social dude who always seemed paranoid and as it turned out, sold drugs on the side. He drove a Chevy Celebrity station wagon. And then there was me with my Dart. Within the same week, all of our cars died. The Celebrity blew its engine, the Ranger crapped its tranny, and the Dart, which died completely one night and then fired up later, as if possessed, only to die again 2 days later, simply needed a new set of $2.98 points.

    Ah, those were the good old days of cheap gas, where you could drive whatever you wanted and whined when it got over maybe $1.30 per gallon. I guess if I tried that delivery routine these days I'd be delivering in a hybrid!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,684
    >Celebrity blew its engine

    Was it a four cylinder? Didn't they have a head gasket leak develop unless you did the recommended remove valve cover and retorque the center two head bolts? A neighbor had one do that. I believe they even had a replacement set of head bolts to use for that application.

    >simply needed a new set of $2.98 points.

    What was it with points wearing out? I had a Mustang 289 that went through points about every 8 thousand miles. Plugs went a little longer.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    Wearing out points - some would last, some would burn quickly, I remember it had something to do with how the rest of the ignition system was set up. Maybe something about the condenser? It's certainly been a while since I used my dwell tach!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    I don't remember now which engine that Celebrity had. Actually, I was under the impression that it was the 4-cyl that was more reliable? I know 2 people who had Cavalier Z-24's, an '87 and an '89, with the 2.8, and both of them blew a head gasket. The '89 had about 100,000 miles, and at that point my buddy just got rid of it. With the '87, I don't know the mileage, but my friend's father, who was a metro bus mechanic, was able to fix it.

    As for the points, I'd always heard that they should be replaced every 12,000 miles. Once I started delivering pizzas in that Dart, I lost track of just how fast the miles were racking up. I had changed them in 1994, when the car had maybe 280,000 miles on it. So, no big shock, I guess, when I was pushing 320-325,000, and the dang things fried in late 1996. :sick:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Gentlemen! The group should get back on topic unless you all feel you are played out on this subject, and we can button it up?

    Shiftright
    Visiting Host
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Yeah, one of my friends did pizza delivery in CA with a Isuzu Rodeo until I pointed out that for the maintenance costs + gas, he would be better off with a subcompact beater. He had a string of beaters, Colts, Isuzu Imark diesel (was that basically a Chevette?) and a Civic Hondamatic (you had to shift it from first to second). I think he ended up with a small fleet of VW Rabbit diesels.
    I think about the pizza guys now and the trans-am/camaro/Mustang they are so proud of, and driving high-powered RWD car in snow and can't help but wonder why they don' have a Festiva for work and that other car for play.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    I pretty much did a string of beaters when I delivered pizzas. Started with the '68 Dart, then a '79 Newport, then briefly an '86 Monte Carlo (got t-boned after 3 months), then back to the Newport until its water pump went out and I figured a 10 year newer car ('89 Gran Fury) with less than 1/3 the miles (73K versus 250K) would be cheaper and more reliable (it wasn't). Fortunately, by the time I bought my 2000 Intrepid, I had dug myself out of debt and was able to start putting some money away, so I wasn't ragging that new car into the ground like I had been with the others. I also lucked out that gas prices shot up right after I got that Intrepid. And going from a 11-13 mpg premium-burning ex-police car to something that I actually took talent to sink below 20 mpg on lo-test really helped out with the fuel bills.

    Only time I ever had a problem with snow was one night I was using my grandmother's '85 LeSabre. When the Intrepid was new, I'd drive that LeSabre on bad nights, because I'd rather the other idiots on the road bounce harmlessly off that old, long-since-paid-off beast rather than total a new car with roughly 5 years of payments still on the books. Well, stupid me, I came back to the store and parked on ice. When I went out with the next delivery run, the car did nothing but sit and spin. Luckily, another driver saw me and helped push me out. I remember we also had another driver, an Indian guy with a late 90's Corolla, who got stuck in the snow. Sometimes it's not the car, but the nut behind the wheel! IIRC he got stuck a few times!

    I had some fun times back in those days but gawd, looking back, I hope I never have to do it again! I guess if I ever ran into a situation where I needed some quick cash, I'd try bartending or waiting tables. I'm done ragging cars out just to sling some pizzas.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    from anything subcompacts have ever achieved in the past. I think perhaps it IS time to wrap this topic up...certainly the market seems to be saying there isn't a whole lot "wrong with these new subcompacts".

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    there is absolutely nothing wrong with subcompacts at all. All is well in their universe. The planets have all sufficiently lined up in the automotive enthusiast's world to put this pup to sleep.

    Night all!! ;)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • andeetandeet Member Posts: 142
    Why Toyota put the I4 Camry, Highlander engine into the tCs not I6...So it could get good gas mileage & cheaper to make in production. Toyota could easely put that 16,xxx-17,700 price to 23,000. I personally get better gas mileage than '08s. I don't know why maybe cause it's officially broken in (at 61k miles) or the Cold Air Intake does add few more miles? I get about 28 combined and at 3.00 bucks per gallon; costs me less than 30 bucks to fill up. It's much better smoother ride than the xA. Lexus IS300's and tC's do have alot of similarities like same tire size and same alloy wheel design. I also think they were built on the same T.M.C. Japanese factory line.

    I do think it's interesting that Toyota is giving all new model designs bigger engines. Like '09 Corollas are getting Toyota's 1.8L Dual VVT-i four-cylinder engine: 132 hp and get estimated 27/35 mpg city/highway for Standard, LE and XLE models while the S and XRS models will get 158 horsepower version of Toyota's 2.4L VVT-i four-cylinder engine with drop mileage to 22/30 city/highway.

    I will say this: in fact I have read this type of statement in many car reviews online & on publication. "More the test driver or editor drove the car for everyday usage. The more they have fun driving it." That's so true! And that's why I have 61k miles on a '07! :D
  • dromedariusdromedarius Member Posts: 307
    I know Toyota is putting the 2.4 into the Matrix but into the S??? I hadn't heard that. While the extra torque would be nice, unless they plan to change things they are still 40 horses behind the Civic Si powerplant which is almost 1/2 a liter smaller.

    Speaking of Honda's, I think one of the downsides of the Fit is we probably won't see a "true" sport version of it (I'm talking HP, not bigger rims :blush: ) because of Honda's reluctance to overshadow the Civic market.

    :cry:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, let's just say there were major distractions for Mitsubishi that kept them from focusing on product.

    So it was the other way around. Management (hidden recalls) and Marketing (0/0/0 deals putting people upside down) hurt Mitsubishi enough that it hurt sales and starved them of the cash needed for product updates.

    Frankly, it's a miracle the EVO ever happened.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Also corporate scandals. There were world-wide calls for boycotting Mitsubishi for a while there, by various political and environmental groups. I don't recall what the flap was, but it was pretty serious and had basis in fact.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Mitsubishi suffers from the same problems as many other Japanese manufacturers, they are compared to Toyota and Honda and much like domestic vehicles they simply aren't in the same class. They are different and have to be measured as such. Mazda has developed its own identity and as such is looked at as an alternative to the blandness of a Toyota and yet more dependable than a VW. Nissan has tried to kill themselves competing with Toyota when they never had the product nor the reputation. Honda has been successful because they only try to be Honda. Suzuki is almost a cheep imitation of Honda and needs to change that image. Subaru has at times tried to climb into the ring with the big boys and at least twice has been knocked out of the ring. It looks like they may have learned their lesson and decided that they are just fine right where they are, an alternative and AWD.

    When you look at the Mitsubishi line up what do you see that you can't get from someone else? Their two most interesting vehicles are the EVO and the Eclipse. Only the Eclipse stands out from what everyone else has. The EVO is an alternative to the WRX and the WRX is a hard act to follow. Even if the EVO has a less busy look to it.

    But still getting back to the subject I don't see a Sub Compact Subaru or Mitsubishi. They might make cars in the Civic Corolla class but that seems to be about as small as most US consumers are willing to go.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    But still getting back to the subject I don't see a Sub Compact Subaru or Mitsubishi.

    Mitsubishi makes subcompacts and kei cars, but doesn't sell them here (yet). The kei-sized Subaru R1 has been occasionally rumored to make an appearance here.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    "Mitsubishi makes subcompacts and kei cars, but doesn't sell them here (yet). The kei-sized Subaru R1 has been occasionally rumored to make an appearance here."

    Doesn't the fact they don't sell them here say something to you?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Those are very tiny cars.

    Problem is, with the weak dollar, they would be no cheaper than bigger, established subcompacts.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    ***>>Also corporate scandals. There were world-wide calls for boycotting Mitsubishi for a while there, by various political and environmental groups. I don't recall what the flap was, but it was pretty serious and had basis in fact.<<***

    Major sexual harrassment cases at the Normal, IL plant.
  • dromedariusdromedarius Member Posts: 307
    I have decided that the little two door Yaris is a little too small for me. Their mileage isn't really that great for such a tiny car, and not until today did I realize how truly tiny they are. Wow! I drove by two of them in quick succession and they are like bumps in the road. Their mileage doesn't really differ from the sedan, and both are supposedly fishy on the road. I don't understand how Honda could get the Fit so right and Toyota the Yaris so wrong, at least IMO.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    I share your comments. Whilst the Yaris is a good car, and highly rated here in Europe, it does seem cramped. When we were looking for a new car for my wife last year, (i.e. buying a car for my wife, not trading her in - neat idea but no dealer would bite :) ), we looked at the Yaris and a couple of others. The Honda Jazz, (your Fit), was a hands-down winner. Almost hard to believe the Yaris and Jazz are supposedly in the same class.

    21 months in, the Jazz just continues to do what it is supposed to do with no drama/faults whatsoever. My beloved loves the 7-spd CVT 'box and I enjoy driving the little beast as well........it always seems eager to please.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    What would you say the most popular vehicle is in Europe? I haven't been there in two years but I saw quite a few ford Focus sedans and VWs but not as many Accords and Camrys as I see here. The most popular vehicle in the US is the Pickup truck. The top two or three best selling vehicles at least are pickups. But I hardly ever see any in Europe. How do you get stuff home from the DIY stores?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The top two or three best selling vehicles at least are pickups. But I hardly ever see any in Europe. How do you get stuff home from the DIY stores?

    In America, the high number of pickups is largely due to fleet sales. In midyear, the top two sellers, the Ford F150 and Chevrolet Silverado had fleet sales of 21.3% and 16.2%, respectively, basically meaning every fifth F150 and every sixth Silverado you see is probably commercially owned, not by a private owner.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Shocking as it seems, these stores will still deliver to your house in many cases. Or you strap the mattress to your Fiat 500.

    Little Fiat, VW, Peugeot hatchback turbo diesels seem all the rage in Europe.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Ford Focus is probably most popular overall, although VW do sell an awful lot of cars and I guess Golf is possibly their top seller. I'll see if I can find something a little more factual and revert.

    There are increasing numbers of pick-ups around; but nothing like USA numbers - or sizes. SUV's are fairly popular but have an increasingly bad reputation as gas guzzlers and tend to get branded as "Chelsea Tractors", which is not a term of endearment. I guess we get our stuff home as best we can or get it delivered. We don't seem to have the passion for big projects I've seen in USA. We perhaps have a bigger poulation of estate cars but hatchbacks are far and away the major body style and it's amazing what you can carry with a little ingenuity. ;)

    As for the Camry - it's no longer sold in UK, nor rest of Europe I suspect. It was never much of a seller............too big to be popular, wrong brand to be prestige and at some stage Toyota quietly dropped it. I hadn't even noticed. Biggest saloon in the Toyota fleet is the Avensis, (plus an estate version), then the range moves on to SUV's. Lexus have some sales but mainly the IS models. Audi. BMW and Mercedes pretty much rule the prestige sector, (suprise), with Jaguar, Volvo, Saab following on. Honda sell a decent number of Accords but more Civics and certainly more Jazz, (Fit). Most Accords & Civics are probably diesels as are most Passats, A4's, A6's etc. Lexus do an IS diesel but it's not a great engine whereas the Audi, BMW and Mercedes are all very good diesels, as is the Honda along with Jaguar and Volvo diesels, (I drive an S60 D5 so may be biased). Saab diesels are OK but not top-flight.

    Hope this gives you something to mull over for the time being.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    Yes, I know how that works. I had a stove delivered from Lowes Wednesday. After my truck burned I had no way of picking it up myself. The were supposed to deliver the Stove last week on wednesday but they had to re schedual to last Friday. Of course someone had to stay at home all afternoon last wednesday because they give you a 4 hour window for delivery. So we had to do the same thing last Friday. But then again they couldn't make it so Friday afternoon was shot. They did make it this Wednesday so we only had to set aside 12 hours of our time to wait for home delivery at 80 bucks a pop.

    Have you ever driven a Fiat 500, just as an aside? What a hoot. I wouldn't want to drive one on a daily basis but on weekends to foreign car shows it is fun. But then once again you have to have a truck to haul it from where I live to San Diego or Sacramento or any other place more than 50 miles away because they can't make freeway speeds.

    I did notice that in Europe they were a bit more relaxed about personal space when driving. I believe their were quite a few times I saw six people in a Civic sized car. But they were nothing like Japan. On a Japanese Underground the conductors push the last few riders onto the car as the door shuts. Here if we can touch another persons shoulder with our elbow we are too close.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    In midyear, the top two sellers, the Ford F150 and Chevrolet Silverado had fleet sales of 21.3% and 16.2%, respectively, basically meaning every fifth F150 and every sixth Silverado you see is probably commercially owned, not by a private owner.

    Are you sure that's just for the F-150 and Silverado half-ton, though? Ford and Chevy tend to lump all configurations of their F-series together in sales, as does Chevy with the Silverado. So with Ford, that means that the F-250/350/etc, which has about as much in common with the F-150 as a Malibu does with an Impala, gets all the figures lumped together. With GM, the trucks are more similar, just with beefier frames and suspensions under the cab and body.

    I think these truck sales might even include medium-duty configurations, like what you see for moving vans, buses, etc. That's where most of your fleet sales probably get weighted in, with the heavier duty pickups. Your typical half-ton pickup of today really isn't that much more beefy than a mid 1970's intermediate car, when it comes to payload capacity, so they're just not that useful out on the job site.

    I also have a feeling that in Europe, the do it yourself craze is much less prevalent. Residences tend to be much smaller, so there's less to remodel. I'd also imagine that a lot more people are renters over there versus here, which means that your landlord is most likely the one doing the renovations, as opposed to you doing it yourself. And since cars in general are more of a luxury in Europe, versus a necessity in much of the US, I'd imagine that delivery service is much more common.

    I was in Paris back in 1994, and while a pickup truck was something you just didn't see, they did have plenty of these little cube truck type things. Basically they had the cab of a compact pickup, something like a small Toyota or Nissan, and on the back in place of the bed was an enclosed box maybe 5.5-6 feet long and a foot or two taller than the cab. It also stuck out wider than the cab of the truck, too. There were tons of these things running around.
  • boaz47boaz47 Member Posts: 2,747
    I knew you had better selections on diesels than we do but living in California we hardly have any diesels to pick from. VW doesn't have a very good reputation for dependability even though they are supposed to have a pretty good diesel. Our biggest selling diesels are in 3/4 ton trucks. It may be the way our roads are designed or how our cities were built around the Automobile or even the distances we travel but sub compacts has always been on the bottom end of our automotive food chain. And yes we do seem to do a lot of major projects ourselves. But then even at $3.50 a gallon for gas we get quite a deal on our fuel prices.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    I'm with ya there, Boaz, waiting around for delivery can be a pain in the butt! Back in 2004 when I was having my condo remodeled and getting ready to sell, I had to waste three separate days, as I waited around for my appliances (wasted about 8 hours on a Sunday with that one), cabinets (lost about a half-day of work on that one), and countertops (that one was pretty quick; I think they actually showed up on time!).

    Now to be fair, even with my pickup truck, I wouldn't want to deal with hauling this much stuff. Plus, getting stuff like a refrigerator and a stacked washer/dryer up a flight of stairs that have a landing, so it's not a straight shot, can be a real ordeal. But then there were other times when I just needed one or two things. For instance, originally I wasn't going to replace the stove at the condo, because it was fairly new. But it needed to be cleaned, and it was in much better shape than the stove at my house, which dated to 1981, had one ranger burner that didn't work, a broken upper oven, a timer that didn't work, and a lower oven that tended to scorch things. So at the last minute I decided to buy a new stove for the condo so EVERYTHING would be all-new, and then use the existing stove at my house.

    That was nice, to be able to just go to Lowe's, buy a stove, throw it in the back of the truck and haul it to the condo. Likewise, back in May I needed a new washing machine at the house, so I just went to Lowe's, threw it in the truck, and brought it home. None of the delivery hassle. The next big item I want to get is a fridge...a big 21 or so cubic foot one. I'm tempted to just go pick it up myself, but I have a bum shoulder these days, so I dunno if I want to try lugging a fridge around!
  • tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    I was in Paris back in 1994, and while a pickup truck was something you just didn't see, they did have plenty of these little cube truck type things. Basically they had the cab of a compact pickup, something like a small Toyota or Nissan, and on the back in place of the bed was an enclosed box maybe 5.5-6 feet long and a foot or two taller than the cab. It also stuck out wider than the cab of the truck, too. There were tons of these things running around.

    White Vans the drivers are called White Van Man in the UK. The most insane obnoxious drivers you'll ever see on public roads in the UK.
    Go to YouTube and you'll see videos on them.
    Same type of van, very common in Europe.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,035
    I searched around, and the things I was thinking of looked kinda like the one in this pic...
    image
  • tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_van_man

    This is the definition and the vans are all similar but some are bigger or smaller depending on what they deliver. Yes that's a white Van but that one has a window. True white vans are cargo only so no windows usually.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Ah, the infamous White Van Man ! Scourge of all major UK and European roads. Fastest-travelling vehicles on major roads are, almost invariably, white vans - even though they may not actually be white. The Mercedes Sprinter series are probably the kings of the highway racetrack. All diesels, of course, and incredibly quick unladen. But the smaller Ford, Peugeot, Vauxhall vans are just as ferociously driven. Small diesels being driven on the rev limiter. Scary. I think if White Vans were legal for NASCAR they'd "kick [non-permissible content removed]" as they say :) . Well, not really, but you get the idea. Being tailgated at 80mph on the motorway ? It'll be White Van Man. Overaken on a blind crest on a 60mph main road ? Guess what ?

    At the other end of the scale, our heavy trucks in UK are legally limited to 56mph, (which they can all do). Truck overtaking truck thus becomes an event of calendar proportions. Affectionately known as "Elephant Racing".

    As for European car sales; The Ford Focus is UK's best selling car and the following tells the European story :

    Europe&#146;s best performing brand of 2006 was VW, thanks to several well-received new models &#150; Passat, Jetta, Fox, Eos and Golf Plus, while in descending order the top ten is completed by Opel/Vauxhall, Renault, Ford, Peugeot, Citroen, Fiat, Toyota, Mercedes and BMW. Fiat recorded the largest increase in sales from this group with an 18.7% rise in new car registrations mainly due to strong sales of the Grande Punto, as well as the Croma, Sedici, an expanded Panda range and the face-lifted Doblo.

    Traditionally, Citroen, Peugeot and Renault occupy the last places in ownership/reliability surveys but that doesn't stop the masses buying them. :confuse: Not sure if VW above is just VW or the VW Group; VW/Audi/Skoda/SEAT. If it is just VW then I have no idea what happened to Audi - sure are lots about.

    As for diesels; we Europeans love 'em and have a wide choice of good ones. Not having a diesel option is seen as a serious setback to any range, (excl RR, Bentley and the exotics, although there is lots of debate about a diesel version of the Audi R8). Looks like we're close to the point at which diesel car sales will outnumber petrol car sales. Current fuel prices in UK are circa :

    UL Gasoline : $8 per USG and ULS Diesel : $8.4 per USG :cry:

    Calculated using a £/$ ExRate of $2.02 per £1.

    Given diesel's better mileage it starts to make sense. ULS Diesel is the only flavour available.

    Comments made re European houses being smaller then USA houses is generally correct and my limited experience of DIY Store delivery services has been very good.

    Apologies for wandering off-topic.
  • tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    Ah, the infamous White Van Man ! Scourge of all major UK and European roads. Fastest-travelling vehicles on major roads are, almost invariably, white vans - even though they may not actually be white. The Mercedes Sprinter series are probably the kings of the highway racetrack. All diesels, of course, and incredibly quick unladen. But the smaller Ford, Peugeot, Vauxhall vans are just as ferociously driven.

    I've seen your videos of traffic accidents and such nevermind when I was actually over there and those guys make me look sane. :P
    Those white vans do it all. I love the Top Gear Ep where they compete and I don't think anyone actually got a Sprinter. May of course got a Huge van, Hammond a small one and Clarkson I forget but it was probably fast. ;)
    Then they had white van men drive a van around the track in another ep. Great stuff. Sorry for it being off topic.
    To get back on topic I would love to see some subcompacts or compacts here in the US with diesels. The Fit would be nice or anything in the 4 door hatch. It's all my european blood I guess but I like hatches. :D What's wrong with US Subcompacts is no diesel engine option!
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Apologies, missed the Fiat 500 reference in your post. Yes, I drove a Fiat 500 back in the late-60's. Total hoot but not a long distance cruiser. 0-60 mph if you have a diary and four-up brought a whole new meaning to the word intimate. These are now very collectable and good ones fetch respectable prices.

    Howeverr, the new Fiat 500 is about to hit the roads. Almost as cute as the original, and with lots of the same styling cues. Much more civilised though. 1242cc I4 petrol, 69bhp, 865kg and 0-62 in 12.9secs. Top speed a scary 99mph. It even has climate control as standard. Initial reviews are very favourable.

    Go here for a look-see.

    Fiat

    If link doen't work, (my fault, not sure how to incl links), go to www.fiat.co.uk/ and click on the New 500 link.

    Back to topic as this may never hit USA and is possibly sub-sub-compact but, to my mind, makes more sense than a Smart ForTwo or whatever.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,749
    they've been talking that new 500 up alot in the the major mags. Seems like they are anticipating a possible US release.(??)
    I think it looks great, but I'd much prefer to see 180hp or more. ;b

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Now a 180bhp Fiat 500 would be, er................interesting. Just not sure where they'd fit the other two engines. At that out put you'd get around 208bhp/tonne. I think it's better balanced, for the job it's designed for, with just the 69bhp. :shades:

    My Volvo S60 has the 185bhp/295lbft D5 diesel and it's a brilliant bit of kit. Don't think you get that yet, either. :confuse:

    Back to topic.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,469
    I don't think there's been a Volvo diesel in NA since maybe 1985 or 1986

    I'll agree the new little Fiat looks a lot cooler than a Smart
  • I just got back from 3 weeks in Europe (Italy and Spain mostly), saw several Fiat 500s, cute... but Europe is FULL of little cars that would sell like hotcakes in the US... and full of diesel EVERYTHING. Saw a total of 1 American monster trucks (Dodge Ram, Hemi even, not a Cummins) and 1 Hummer H3. Europe has learned how to carry everything we do in our monster trucks in little motorcycle trucks. I can't wait for $5 a gallon petrol so American manufacturers will have to give us responsible vehicles, and I can finally buy something I want. My favorite was the new Honda Civic 5 door diesel 2.2i CDTI. They couldn't keep them in stock if they sold them here.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Member Posts: 1,757
    >

    Would you really expect that a WORK truck is commercially owned? Seriously, some of the "fleet" sales are to small contractors with 2-3 vehicles who also use the vehicle as their personal vehicle.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Would you really expect that a WORK truck is commercially owned?

    Yes, I would. There are tons of F-150 pickups on my college campus with "UAB" painted on them. They are commercially owned, and are work trucks. There are numerous examples of these.

    Why is this an issue with you, out of curiousity?
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    The more a person travels abroad, especially Europe, you tend to realize that the USA is a 3rd-world nation when it comes to car choices. Our vehicle's may cost less here in the USA as compared to other countries, but we are also offered less as well. Government safety mandates may create safer cars, but interesting and more fuel efficient alternatives . . . no.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That is so true. Europeans get a far greater range of really competent subcompacts.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    But is the American taste for those subcompacts? In other words would they sell here stateside?

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

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