Some would I think, others not. The excellent turbo-diesel hatckbacks are great performers, really fun to drive. But some of the crappy 4-door Fiat gas cars, no way.
I think turbo diesels might be a hard sell as many people remember the diesels from the 70's and 80's. However they might get interest from those who don't remember big clouds of smoke coming from a noisy diesel (yes I know diesels are much different now). I though would seriously look at a small diesel for a commuter car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yeah, but from what I've heard is that they actually run the gamut from really great to being so awful that they would've been banned from our shores 50 years ago, let alone today. I'd say our cars are more middle-of-the-road. Maybe we don't get a lot of the really high-quality small stuff that's sold in Europe, but we also don't have to contend with the all-out crap that still gets peddled there.
Most stations I go to that sell diesel offer a kind of rubber glove for the pump. The smell gets on your hands if you aren't careful. When we had the f-250 I kept a box of latex gloves in the truck.
But I am serious about getting a Diesel if I can find the right one this time. But still the diesel will find a way to get on your hands and it has the same qualities as scented oil. It stays with you for hours.
If people want to buy crap, then let them have that option of buying crap. We shop at Walmart don't we. People don't drive 50 miles a day back and forth to work in Europe like we do. I'd drive a go-kart with a roof if it was street legal. On Friday nights when there's going to be heavy drinking, they drink at home with their buddies first. Then take the train to the pub to drink some more. See. No abuse on the crappy car.
Just not sure where they'd fit the other two engines.
bah. ok, 180 might be pushing it slightly. But what is VW getting out of their little 1.4 liter twin-charged engine? 160? 170? something like that, IIRC. In this day and age, an engine doesn't have to be overly large to give big output. Heck, I just read a writeup on a GTI with a mere ECU reprogramming that is putting out 250hp and 300 lb-ft torque!!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
there is a reason the diesel is more popular over there..they aren't selling the high sulpher content they won't,or aren't allowed to sell over there..that's another reason their fuel is higher,it's more refined!..also,to the fellow who posted about the scented diesel?..try running salvaged oil from your favorite restraunt!..while willie nelson's caravan of trucks went bio-diesel,they said sometimes,you would smell french fries,hamburgers,even a -long john silvers-fish-n -more smell coming out of the tailpipe!!..beats the-north-end-of-a-southbound-mule- kinda smell i get from being behind a bus in traffic!!
and running on alcohol was something henry ford spoke of..nothing new..even old moonshiners will tell you that one..why does it take us so long to accept working idea's??.. ..i agree the u.s. "protects" us a little too mutch-(free market capatilist-my aunt fanny!!..)..some of those cars don't have guard rails in the doors..well,they could tell us it might not do as well in a crash,then let us make the decesion..i'm with the group that feels people drive more recklessly with seat belts and air bags,makes them feel TOO safe..maybe if they felt they might not walk away from a crash-they might drive safer..those that don't-well,the heard needs thinning every now and then..
You're right, of course. You no longer need big engines for big outputs but that's missing the point of what cars like the new Fiat 500, Mini Cooper, Citroen C2 etc are about. They are designed to be useful city/urban/highway cars, not track-day specials. They will easily keep up with traffic and provide sufficient fun into the bargain. "Sufficient" is, of course, a term that means something different to each of us but it suits the vast majority of buyers in this context.
You can buy ECU upgrades/remaps for most things - including European diesels. My old Skoda Fabia vRS, (based on the VW Polo), had the 1.9TDi/130bhp/220lbft engine as standard but there is an ECU upgrade to 215bhp, and a mountain of torque, available. Some folks fit these but the vast majority get their jollies with the standard kit.
Yes, diesel is not a pleasant fuel but we do try not to spill it - cost is the incentive and our pumps are generally well maintained plus latex gloves are almost always provided FOC next to the pump.
Not sure what the definition of "Crappy little cars" is but there are still some older flimsy devices about. All modern cars go through EuroNCAP collission testing and most come out with good, sometimes top, scores. Small doesn't necessarily equate to dangerous or flimsy anymore. Good design and use of materials is far more important than sheer bulk. One of the least-safe cars in testing is the Chrysler Grand Voyager - hardly a small vehicle. However, getting hit by 44 tonnes of truck with a combined closing speed of 120mph is going to ruin your day whatever you're driving, (but even I would rather be in a RR Phantom than a Mini in that event).
Europen, (plus Japanese & Korean), cars are built to suit our purposes and my guess is that 90% of that purpose is similar to that required in USA, maybe more.............hauling half a tree in plank form, or a 3-tonne Airstream being among the obvious exceptions.
Sorry to ramble on; just trying to cover as many points as possible in the one post.
A couple of thoughts as to why we don't see the wide range of choices in the US as there are in Europe. For the moment, I'll assume that the legal regulations are identical in the US and EU - no difference in emission or safety rules.
* Dealerships .. how many dealers would a brand need to have in the US to have good market penetration? How many dealerships sell Mini's? You may consider that to be a 'floor' number for anyone not already doing business here in the states (Renault and Fiat, for example). And remember, MIni didn't really start out with a whole new dealer network - they simply piggybacked onto existing BMW franchises.
* Distances. Earlier this year, I drove an inherited '92 Subaru Legacy from Denver to Los Angeles to give as a HS graduation gift to my son. Distance? About 1100 miles - or, to compare, roughly the distance from Rome to London. And that was only 1/3 the width of the US. Many US citizens drive long distances regularly - in Texas, it's not considered unusual to drive 100+ miles for a meal out or to attend a HS football game. In Europe, distances like that are more often than not traveled by train, not car. Subcompact and compact size car (Golf, Focus or smaller) just aren't going to cut it for many Americans, IMO.
Bottom line? Subcompacts will be great as "second" (or even "third") cars for short commutes or errand running, but it's unlikely that we in the US will ever completely give up the pickup truck, the SUV (or CUV) or our mid-size or large sedans.
However, having said that, if the aforementioned vehicles can be made available with more fuel efficient engines (diesels, hybrids, whatever) then we can reduce the amount of fossil fuels we use without completely changing our lifestyle.
Goofing around on Google maps, I find that the driving distance from LA to Pittsburgh, PA to be roughly equal to the driving distance between Lisbon, Portugal to Helsinki, Finland.
I'm sure this is of no interest to anyone but me, but I've got to believe that more people in the US make the drive from one coast to the other than folks in Europe make the drive from Portugal to Finland.
Dealerships .. how many dealers would a brand need to have in the US to have good market penetration? How many dealerships sell Mini's? You may consider that to be a 'floor' number for anyone not already doing business here in the states (Renault and Fiat, for example).
Renault was sold through Chrysler last time, maybe Nissan would be next if they made another go of it.
MIni didn't really start out with a whole new dealer network - they simply piggybacked onto existing BMW franchises.
Was that how it started? I thought the pretty much forbid this. Motor City Mini is far from any BMW dealers IIRC.
Subcompact and compact size car (Golf, Focus or smaller) just aren't going to cut it for many Americans, IMO.
I have no problems with a Focus or a Golf. A Scion or a Yaris might make me uncomfortable. It might be an age thing (I know previous generations grew up with cars much bigger than I am used to...they called my '76 Nova a compact at the time) or a cultural/regional thing or something, I dunno.
Bottom line? Subcompacts will be great as "second" (or even "third") cars for short commutes or errand running, but it's unlikely that we in the US will ever completely give up the pickup truck, the SUV (or CUV) or our mid-size or large sedans.
I think the trade off to go from a sub-compact to a mid-size isn't enough to win buyers over. I don't really ever see myself wanting an SUV, although I do realize SUVs and pickups do have a place. I think a midsize sedan and a minivan is about as big as i want to get, and if i do have a 3 car, it will be more fun than a sub-compact (is a 90's MR2 a sub-compact?).
But I don't think I'm missing the point of the vehicles in question, I just focus on different aspects than you.
For instance, I'm interested in them for their handling, spriteliness, and reduced weight. Personally, however, sufficient power is not enough for me. I want the aforementioned attributes while being darned quick.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I'm sure this is of no interest to anyone but me, but I've got to believe that more people in the US make the drive from one coast to the other than folks in Europe make the drive from Portugal to Finland.
Absolutely valid point. Europeans tend to be much more parochial in their approach to driving. Number of factors at play, I think :
Cost of fuel. You may need to take one, or more, ferries to do such a journey and would certainly encounter multiple languages/laws etc. We have lots of low-cost, and good, airlines serving just about everywhere from the Mediterranean to the Baltic............e,g, we're off to Dublin for Christmas, (from U.K.). Air fare is equiv of $2 per person, each way + taxes. Taking the car means catching a ferry, (not cheap), and the best part of a day vs a 40 minute flight from our local airport, (30 mins away). Also, we have a good rail network over large parts of Europe - France and Germany are particularly well served. In the U.K. we don't seem to have progressed since steam loco's were replaced. :sick: As a general rule we do not drive such long distances.
I have a Canadian friend who is going to tow his Airstream down to the Rio Grande this winter - same as last year. Also, Texan friends who went on vacation to Colorado, (from Houston area). I would simply fly and hire a car, although we do take off in the car and tour France & Germany for 3 or 4 weeks. I wouldn't want to do any of those trips in a Yaris-sized box. Those same Texan friends seemed surprised, whilst here in '06, when we said no to driving to Edinburgh from middle of eastern England. Flying was cheaper, quicker and more convenient for a city break.
But, some Europeans do get out and about. In Quartzite, AZ, last February we spotted an RV with German plates, (K=Koln/Cologne), and also one with Russian plates. Now that is serious driving but far far from the norm.
So overall, typical Euro/Japanes subcompacts are not ideal for long distance work as described. There are real differences at play but not all Americans drive 1500+ miles on a regular basis so subcompacts still have a place.
I am one of those folks who will take couple of road trips (at least 2000 miles, round trip) every year. But, it doesn’t cross my mind that I need to buy bigger cars for it. Assuming 5K miles on such road trips, and 15K miles worth of regular driving, I would rather get a fuel efficient and practical sub compact for 75% of my needs and rent, if necessary, something bigger for those road trips. It is for similar reasons that I feel pickups make sense as rentals. Besides ownership costs, subjecting myself to driving those on a regular basis would be an abomination.
Folks in the USA don’t care much for sub compacts for reasons that midsized cars and bigger are still reasonably cheap to own and operate. It will change as we catch up with the rest of the world. The other problem is that good sub compacts are in extremely limited numbers. Over time, this can be expected to change as well.
lilengineerboy: Renault was sold through Chrysler last time, maybe Nissan would be next if they made another go of it.
Renault bought a controlling interest in AMC, and Renaults were sold through AMC dealers. The Renault Alliance and Encore were manufacturered at the AMC plant in Kenosha, and sold through AMC dealers.
The big problem Renault faces is the terrible reputation its cars earned here in the 1980s. The Alliance actually sold pretty well for its first two years on the market - it was the second best-selling subcompact in the country, if I recally correctly. But then the problems hit, and sales went into a tailspin.
The only cars that approached the Yugo for black dots in the annual Consumer Reports survey were the Renault Alliance and Encore. Everyone I talked to who owned one swore, "never again."
Couple that poor reliability with spotty parts availability, and it will take an almost superhuman for Renault to overcome its prior bad reputation, especially given that the U.S. market is already saturated. Every sale will have to be taken from someone else, which is pretty tough these days.
lilengineerboy: Was that how it started? I thought the pretty much forbid this. Motor City Mini is far from any BMW dealers IIRC.
I don't think there is any law forbidding BMW dealers from carrying Mini franchises.
BMW seems to have followed a policy of limiting Mini dealers to prevent oversaturation. Around here the closest one is located in Lancaster, about 45 minutes away.
Well, some people have short memories. Some like to root for the underdog and avoid Ford and Chevy to drive something a bit different. And Ghosn could always call the Renaults Nissans.
Midsized cars are also more comfortable. I noticed a nice jump in comfort, room and sound insulation when I moved from a Civic to a 2003 Accord (don't know how the latest generation of the Civic stacks up in those areas).
True, but there are so many good choices already available. And people - at least the people I talk to - seem increasingly conservative in their choice of vehicles. If people consider buying a Chevrolet to be "taking a chance," they aren't going to be rushing down to the Renault dealership anytime soon, unless the car runs completely on french fry grease or something.
For the record, I like the Twingo and the Megane for their different approach to automotive styling and packaging.
Then you have the cookie cutter argument that many prognosticators say will lead to ever increasing niches of vehicles so we all aren't cruising around in Camcords. But successful cars like the MINI seem to occupy a pretty large niche.
That is also because how the subcompacts and compacts are being marketed today. When buying by the pound (or cubic inches), people tend to expect more of that. And refinement is the only reason I would shop for larger cars, and a reason I'm extremely curious to see what the new Honda Fit brings. Even if it matches the new Civic, I would have it over just about any midsize sedan, for practicality and sensibility.
For my purposes a car like the Fit does more for me than a midsize sedan because of its utility. I love hatchbacks! It's much easier for me to load my dog's large kennel into a Fit than a sedan or even a pickup for her vet visits, and generally when I shop for something bigger I don't have a carload of people so that relatively monstrous cavern the Fit sports is perfect for me!
I don't think there is any law forbidding BMW dealers from carrying Mini franchises.
There is a BMW/Mini dealer near me, but now that I think about it I think he was pardoned for that crime when our crooked ex-governor tried pardoning lots of people to make him look good to avoid jail.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
high sulfur in the US is not available. Emission in the US are 8 times more stricter than in Europe. In Europe there are different emission standards for gasoline engines and different for diesel engines. That is not the case in US, here all engines must be clean.
even today Renault leaves a bad taste in many consumers mouth. The French had no sales and service to speak of. But more interestingly Renault has no name recognition in this country so unless it was sold as a Nissan it would be a hard sell. At least Fiat and Alfa has some style attached to it.
There are people here who still admire the hatchback but not that many. However the mini-mini van Fit might change that. I can't see the Yaris aging well nor the Versa. But they are different and not cookie cutter so they should have their fans for a few years. I believe the most successful hatchbacks are called something else. Face it some cross over Small SUV are hatches as are most large SUVs.
Well from my experience with the Ford SUV's we have at work (Explorer, Escape), I'd take my MINI Cooper on a long, long drive ANY DAY over one of those.
1) my seats are infinitely more supportive and comfortable than their bleacher benches.
2) I get a >400 mile range on a full tank in highway driving; they, maybe 275 miles, despite their much larger tanks.
3) I have much nicer creature comforts in my MINI than the Fords have.
So much for your argument that small hatches are only suitable as 2nd or 3rd cars in the USA. SUV's are by and large the wrong choice on for every occasion.
I live in Philadelphia, and boy could we use some of those mini delivery trucks here!
Nearly everyday I am stopped in traffic while a full-sized tractor trailer attempts to deliver to a grocery store and has to do a 10-point turn (with external guidance) to back into the parking lot. Our streets are European-sized and way, WAY too small for these trucks. I think they should be banned from Center City, and those Euro delivery vans used for local deliveries.
The closest we have are those Dodge Sprinters, which as you may have noticed are huge versions of what you describe, but much, much more svelte than a tractor trailer (and from what I've read, highly maneuverable and a pleasure to drive).
Regarding DIY stores, you'd be amazed at the things I've successfully packed into my MINI Cooper. My latest coupe was a screen door! That was pushing it, but you know, it was just as hard to fit into my friend's Ford Explorer, due to all the interior side bulges. Go figure!
Know what you mean about trucks in city centres. We do get some trucks in city centres over here, but they are a) discouraged and b) not as long as yours, (why do trucks need to have the engine out-front under a huge hood and still only give the driver a hen coop to sit in ?). Most Euro trucks are what you call cabovers and have been for years.
Have a look here at the Ford Europe range of vans, Note that even the Fiesta van, (subcompact ?), comes with a diesel. :shades:
The Transit van is very very common, as is the Escort Van, (now Transit Connect for some odd marketing reason, (probably because the Escort name is dead). Vauxhall, VW, Renault etc all do similar things. I think it's fair to say that they all have diesel options and gasoline variants are pretty rarte, at least in the newer ones.
There are some in these forums like yourself that don't consider your experience with the mini unusual. But I doubt if many see it as having such nice creature comfort as you do. Your preference for the seats is one. Here is an Edmunds quote." Cons Not much horsepower in the base Cooper, questionable seat comfort, minimal room for rear passengers or luggage.
When people typically talk about sporty handling it is simply code for you feel all of the bumps and rain groves so you feel connected. For some of us that is simply saying that you need to pull over more often to get the blood back to the lower extremities. Not many people would consider a Mini a road car. A sporty city car, yes hands down. Here on Southern California freeways you feel almost every expansion joint and with that short wheel base you get the same rhymatic roll you get in a Jeep. Some people like it and some don't. Looking at what the majority of consumers buy I would say, most don't. Most like the isolation at least of an Accord or Camry. And they seem to move up from there.
I drove the new base 2007 MINI. It was very comfortable.
People might be confused with the S model with the dreaded run-flat tires + the sport suspension.
But if you have a base MINI without run flats or the sport suspension, the ride is fabulous and the car has more room than my friend's 5 series BMW in front.
Hands down, the most comfortable subcompact I ever drove.
The S model with the run flats + sport is a bone-crusher, you are correct. Just with run flats, not too bad.
I was just re-stating the evaluation by Edmunds staff. I have been in a base and S model and while it was softer in the base model I could only say, it was comfortable "considering" the size of the car. Compared to a new Accord it is not as comfortable. Compared to the last Explorer I can promise you going over rail road tracks you know which was the short wheel based car. My standard test for comfortable ride is rail road track crossings and a portion of the 91 freeway with concreat slabs that need mud packing. If I can get that thump thump, pause, thump thump, pause thing going at 65 I consider the ride a bit too stiff. At least for a road car. But for a sub compact the Mini isn't as bad as the origional. It just isn't as good as a Accord or a Explorer. Just in my opinion.
But more to the point it was edmunds that said the Mini's seats were questionable and it is edmunds that said the escape had a comfortable interior and the Explorer had good ride. So for people that have these cars all at the same time there must be something in it.
Howeverr, the new Fiat 500 is about to hit the roads. Almost as cute as the original, and with lots of the same styling cues. Much more civilised though. 1242cc I4 petrol, 69bhp, 865kg and 0-62 in 12.9secs.
Wish they offered cars like this in the US. I noticed the 1.3L diesel is rated at 53 city/78 hwy. Even the most powerful engine choice delivers better than 40 mpg. My Aveo gets no better than mid-20s in light-footed suburban driving and low-30s with a majority of highway mixed in.
you have to wonder how hard it is to make one of the little imports legal for our country? I am surprised that your Aveo only gets low 30s on the highway.
The Aveo is not rated much above that. The Koreans are still playing catch-up with the leading engine technologies available today. They are catching up fast though. Hyundai in particular made big strides with the last evolution of the Accent.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
When I was first looking for a AWD small car I discovered the Koreans were not fuel leaders. Toyota still has the lead there. Except in full sized trucks. There they are no better than anyone else.
You know we don't have a big choice when it comes to fuel economy. To get maximum fuel economy, excluding hybrids, you have to get a Small compact or sub compact 100-125 HP FWD economy car. Toyota will get you the mileage even if it comes at the cost of any style. But if you decide you need AWD mileage drops to less than 30 MPG and once again Toyota leads the way with the Rav4. When we get to full sized trucks and SUVs no one seems to care what mileage it gets and 18 or 19 MPG is all anyone looks for. In that class Toyota sucks just as much fuel as anyone.
RAV4 is best in class for fuel economy for the FWD model, but my sister's 2005 Forester X was rated higher than an AWD RAV4. Her Forester got 23/30 mpg. RAV4 was well behind with 22/27.
Generally, though, Toyota does quite well with fuel economy, usually duking it out with Honda for top honors.
This is true for RAV4/CR-V/Forester in the compact SUV class, Sienna vs. Odyssey in the minivan class, Yaris vs. Fit for minis, Civic vs. Corolla, Prius vs. HCH, etc.
I don't rely on EPA ratings though. Based on my experiences, it seems some automakers have ways to show better numbers on paper than achievable by folks. EPA ratings sell.
I seem to remember in the old days when I had my Subaru, about 1986 or 87, Some of the Subarus had a fuse or something you could pull in the summer to make your car FWD rather than AWD. I never tried anything like that because my car was a RX turbo Subaru Sedan and the best fuel mileage wasn't my top priority. Still I have heard that it made quite a difference.
Still just as a reference point Edmunds lists the 4wd Rav4 and 23-27 and the FWD Rav4 at 24-30. So I did miss the difference. I didn't remember the Rav4 came in FWD. But then it looks like the Forester turbo gets into the fuel tank even with a manual. Edmunds has it listed at 20-27. The Auto was 21-26. From what I hear the turbo is the ticket for a Forester.
Comments
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Until you spilled an ounce, er 30 mL, on your shoes and have to smell it forever.
The pumps don't leak like a sieve in Europe. They actually have this funny notion about maintaining them.
I wish they'd make diesel in flavors, like Baskin-Robbins.
We shop at Walmart don't we.
People don't drive 50 miles a day back and forth to work in Europe
like we do. I'd drive a go-kart with a roof if it was street legal.
On Friday nights when there's going to be heavy drinking, they
drink at home with their buddies first. Then take the train to the pub
to drink some more. See. No abuse on the crappy car.
bah. ok, 180 might be pushing it slightly. But what is VW getting out of their little 1.4 liter twin-charged engine? 160? 170? something like that, IIRC. In this day and age, an engine doesn't have to be overly large to give big output. Heck, I just read a writeup on a GTI with a mere ECU reprogramming that is putting out 250hp and 300 lb-ft torque!!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
and running on alcohol was something henry ford spoke of..nothing new..even old moonshiners will tell you that one..why does it take us so long to accept working idea's??..
..i agree the u.s. "protects" us a little too mutch-(free market capatilist-my aunt fanny!!..)..some of those cars don't have guard rails in the doors..well,they could tell us it might not do as well in a crash,then let us make the decesion..i'm with the group that feels people drive more recklessly with seat belts and air bags,makes them feel TOO safe..maybe if they felt they might not walk away from a crash-they might drive safer..those that don't-well,the heard needs thinning every now and then..
You can buy ECU upgrades/remaps for most things - including European diesels. My old Skoda Fabia vRS, (based on the VW Polo), had the 1.9TDi/130bhp/220lbft engine as standard but there is an ECU upgrade to 215bhp, and a mountain of torque, available. Some folks fit these but the vast majority get their jollies with the standard kit.
Yes, diesel is not a pleasant fuel but we do try not to spill it - cost is the incentive and our pumps are generally well maintained plus latex gloves are almost always provided FOC next to the pump.
Not sure what the definition of "Crappy little cars" is but there are still some older flimsy devices about. All modern cars go through EuroNCAP collission testing and most come out with good, sometimes top, scores. Small doesn't necessarily equate to dangerous or flimsy anymore. Good design and use of materials is far more important than sheer bulk. One of the least-safe cars in testing is the Chrysler Grand Voyager - hardly a small vehicle. However, getting hit by 44 tonnes of truck with a combined closing speed of 120mph is going to ruin your day whatever you're driving, (but even I would rather be in a RR Phantom than a Mini in that event).
Europen, (plus Japanese & Korean), cars are built to suit our purposes and my guess is that 90% of that purpose is similar to that required in USA, maybe more.............hauling half a tree in plank form, or a 3-tonne Airstream being among the obvious exceptions.
Sorry to ramble on; just trying to cover as many points as possible in the one post.
A couple of thoughts as to why we don't see the wide range of choices in the US as there are in Europe. For the moment, I'll assume that the legal regulations are identical in the US and EU - no difference in emission or safety rules.
* Dealerships .. how many dealers would a brand need to have in the US to have good market penetration? How many dealerships sell Mini's? You may consider that to be a 'floor' number for anyone not already doing business here in the states (Renault and Fiat, for example). And remember, MIni didn't really start out with a whole new dealer network - they simply piggybacked onto existing BMW franchises.
* Distances. Earlier this year, I drove an inherited '92 Subaru Legacy from Denver to Los Angeles to give as a HS graduation gift to my son. Distance? About 1100 miles - or, to compare, roughly the distance from Rome to London. And that was only 1/3 the width of the US. Many US citizens drive long distances regularly - in Texas, it's not considered unusual to drive 100+ miles for a meal out or to attend a HS football game. In Europe, distances like that are more often than not traveled by train, not car. Subcompact and compact size car (Golf, Focus or smaller) just aren't going to cut it for many Americans, IMO.
Bottom line? Subcompacts will be great as "second" (or even "third") cars for short commutes or errand running, but it's unlikely that we in the US will ever completely give up the pickup truck, the SUV (or CUV) or our mid-size or large sedans.
However, having said that, if the aforementioned vehicles can be made available with more fuel efficient engines (diesels, hybrids, whatever) then we can reduce the amount of fossil fuels we use without completely changing our lifestyle.
Only time will tell.
I'm sure this is of no interest to anyone but me, but I've got to believe that more people in the US make the drive from one coast to the other than folks in Europe make the drive from Portugal to Finland.
Renault was sold through Chrysler last time, maybe Nissan would be next if they made another go of it.
MIni didn't really start out with a whole new dealer network - they simply piggybacked onto existing BMW franchises.
Was that how it started? I thought the pretty much forbid this. Motor City Mini is far from any BMW dealers IIRC.
Subcompact and compact size car (Golf, Focus or smaller) just aren't going to cut it for many Americans, IMO.
I have no problems with a Focus or a Golf. A Scion or a Yaris might make me uncomfortable. It might be an age thing (I know previous generations grew up with cars much bigger than I am used to...they called my '76 Nova a compact at the time) or a cultural/regional thing or something, I dunno.
Bottom line? Subcompacts will be great as "second" (or even "third") cars for short commutes or errand running, but it's unlikely that we in the US will ever completely give up the pickup truck, the SUV (or CUV) or our mid-size or large sedans.
I think the trade off to go from a sub-compact to a mid-size isn't enough to win buyers over. I don't really ever see myself wanting an SUV, although I do realize SUVs and pickups do have a place. I think a midsize sedan and a minivan is about as big as i want to get, and if i do have a 3 car, it will be more fun than a sub-compact (is a 90's MR2 a sub-compact?).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
But I don't think I'm missing the point of the vehicles in question, I just focus on different aspects than you.
For instance, I'm interested in them for their handling, spriteliness, and reduced weight. Personally, however, sufficient power is not enough for me. I want the aforementioned attributes while being darned quick.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Absolutely valid point. Europeans tend to be much more parochial in their approach to driving. Number of factors at play, I think :
Cost of fuel. You may need to take one, or more, ferries to do such a journey and would certainly encounter multiple languages/laws etc. We have lots of low-cost, and good, airlines serving just about everywhere from the Mediterranean to the Baltic............e,g, we're off to Dublin for Christmas, (from U.K.). Air fare is equiv of $2 per person, each way + taxes. Taking the car means catching a ferry, (not cheap), and the best part of a day vs a 40 minute flight from our local airport, (30 mins away). Also, we have a good rail network over large parts of Europe - France and Germany are particularly well served. In the U.K. we don't seem to have progressed since steam loco's were replaced. :sick: As a general rule we do not drive such long distances.
I have a Canadian friend who is going to tow his Airstream down to the Rio Grande this winter - same as last year. Also, Texan friends who went on vacation to Colorado, (from Houston area). I would simply fly and hire a car, although we do take off in the car and tour France & Germany for 3 or 4 weeks. I wouldn't want to do any of those trips in a Yaris-sized box. Those same Texan friends seemed surprised, whilst here in '06, when we said no to driving to Edinburgh from middle of eastern England. Flying was cheaper, quicker and more convenient for a city break.
But, some Europeans do get out and about. In Quartzite, AZ, last February we spotted an RV with German plates, (K=Koln/Cologne), and also one with Russian plates. Now that is serious driving but far far from the norm.
So overall, typical Euro/Japanes subcompacts are not ideal for long distance work as described. There are real differences at play but not all Americans drive 1500+ miles on a regular basis so subcompacts still have a place.
Folks in the USA don’t care much for sub compacts for reasons that midsized cars and bigger are still reasonably cheap to own and operate. It will change as we catch up with the rest of the world. The other problem is that good sub compacts are in extremely limited numbers. Over time, this can be expected to change as well.
Renault bought a controlling interest in AMC, and Renaults were sold through AMC dealers. The Renault Alliance and Encore were manufacturered at the AMC plant in Kenosha, and sold through AMC dealers.
The big problem Renault faces is the terrible reputation its cars earned here in the 1980s. The Alliance actually sold pretty well for its first two years on the market - it was the second best-selling subcompact in the country, if I recally correctly. But then the problems hit, and sales went into a tailspin.
The only cars that approached the Yugo for black dots in the annual Consumer Reports survey were the Renault Alliance and Encore. Everyone I talked to who owned one swore, "never again."
Couple that poor reliability with spotty parts availability, and it will take an almost superhuman for Renault to overcome its prior bad reputation, especially given that the U.S. market is already saturated. Every sale will have to be taken from someone else, which is pretty tough these days.
lilengineerboy: Was that how it started? I thought the pretty much forbid this. Motor City Mini is far from any BMW dealers IIRC.
I don't think there is any law forbidding BMW dealers from carrying Mini franchises.
BMW seems to have followed a policy of limiting Mini dealers to prevent oversaturation. Around here the closest one is located in Lancaster, about 45 minutes away.
I've always admired the Renault Espace vans.
For the record, I like the Twingo and the Megane for their different approach to automotive styling and packaging.
Then you have the cookie cutter argument that many prognosticators say will lead to ever increasing niches of vehicles so we all aren't cruising around in Camcords. But successful cars like the MINI seem to occupy a pretty large niche.
There is a BMW/Mini dealer near me, but now that I think about it I think he was pardoned for that crime when our crooked ex-governor tried pardoning lots of people to make him look good to avoid jail.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Emission in the US are 8 times more stricter than in Europe.
In Europe there are different emission standards for gasoline engines and different for diesel engines. That is not the case in US, here all engines must be clean.
There are people here who still admire the hatchback but not that many. However the mini-mini van Fit might change that. I can't see the Yaris aging well nor the Versa. But they are different and not cookie cutter so they should have their fans for a few years. I believe the most successful hatchbacks are called something else. Face it some cross over Small SUV are hatches as are most large SUVs.
1) my seats are infinitely more supportive and comfortable than their bleacher benches.
2) I get a >400 mile range on a full tank in highway driving; they, maybe 275 miles, despite their much larger tanks.
3) I have much nicer creature comforts in my MINI than the Fords have.
So much for your argument that small hatches are only suitable as 2nd or 3rd cars in the USA. SUV's are by and large the wrong choice on for every occasion.
note: I drive solo 95% of the time.
Nearly everyday I am stopped in traffic while a full-sized tractor trailer attempts to deliver to a grocery store and has to do a 10-point turn (with external guidance) to back into the parking lot. Our streets are European-sized and way, WAY too small for these trucks. I think they should be banned from Center City, and those Euro delivery vans used for local deliveries.
The closest we have are those Dodge Sprinters, which as you may have noticed are huge versions of what you describe, but much, much more svelte than a tractor trailer (and from what I've read, highly maneuverable and a pleasure to drive).
Regarding DIY stores, you'd be amazed at the things I've successfully packed into my MINI Cooper. My latest coupe was a screen door! That was pushing it, but you know, it was just as hard to fit into my friend's Ford Explorer, due to all the interior side bulges. Go figure!
Have a look here at the Ford Europe range of vans, Note that even the Fiesta van, (subcompact ?), comes with a diesel. :shades:
Ford Vans
The Transit van is very very common, as is the Escort Van, (now Transit Connect for some odd marketing reason, (probably because the Escort name is dead). Vauxhall, VW, Renault etc all do similar things. I think it's fair to say that they all have diesel options and gasoline variants are pretty rarte, at least in the newer ones.
Not much horsepower in the base Cooper, questionable seat comfort, minimal room for rear passengers or luggage.
When people typically talk about sporty handling it is simply code for you feel all of the bumps and rain groves so you feel connected. For some of us that is simply saying that you need to pull over more often to get the blood back to the lower extremities. Not many people would consider a Mini a road car. A sporty city car, yes hands down. Here on Southern California freeways you feel almost every expansion joint and with that short wheel base you get the same rhymatic roll you get in a Jeep. Some people like it and some don't. Looking at what the majority of consumers buy I would say, most don't. Most like the isolation at least of an Accord or Camry. And they seem to move up from there.
People might be confused with the S model with the dreaded run-flat tires + the sport suspension.
But if you have a base MINI without run flats or the sport suspension, the ride is fabulous and the car has more room than my friend's 5 series BMW in front.
Hands down, the most comfortable subcompact I ever drove.
The S model with the run flats + sport is a bone-crusher, you are correct. Just with run flats, not too bad.
Nice seats, BTW in all the models.
But more to the point it was edmunds that said the Mini's seats were questionable and it is edmunds that said the escape had a comfortable interior and the Explorer had good ride. So for people that have these cars all at the same time there must be something in it.
Wish they offered cars like this in the US. I noticed the 1.3L diesel is rated at 53 city/78 hwy. Even the most powerful engine choice delivers better than 40 mpg. My Aveo gets no better than mid-20s in light-footed suburban driving and low-30s with a majority of highway mixed in.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Oh? The Accent still has the ancient iron-block Alpha here, even though Hyundai has the nice, modern aluminum-block Gamma engine in other markets.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
p.s., they have about the same EPA mpgs, so maybe it's something else?
Generally, though, Toyota does quite well with fuel economy, usually duking it out with Honda for top honors.
This is true for RAV4/CR-V/Forester in the compact SUV class, Sienna vs. Odyssey in the minivan class, Yaris vs. Fit for minis, Civic vs. Corolla, Prius vs. HCH, etc.
Still just as a reference point Edmunds lists the 4wd Rav4 and 23-27 and the FWD Rav4 at 24-30. So I did miss the difference. I didn't remember the Rav4 came in FWD. But then it looks like the Forester turbo gets into the fuel tank even with a manual. Edmunds has it listed at 20-27. The Auto was 21-26. From what I hear the turbo is the ticket for a Forester.