Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

1155156158160161195

Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm not a fan of the 500, but a friend who likes it tells me it's because I'm not familiar with the original, hence no nostalgia for it.

    With Mini Cooper sales flying, maybe we will see them here.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I don't suppose we will unless they can find a way to distribute them in the U.S., and they can find the money to federalize them.

    I guess there is some rumor that they are thinking they might establish a sort of one-model Abarth brand in the States? I would like that! Mini sales are always constrained by supply, and there would be room for both brands I would think.

    As for the MiTo, Alfa would show Americans there is more than one way to make a premium small hatch. Mini, Abarth, and Alfa could share this niche and none would suffer for the others, I think.

    andre: I have already lost the link for the trucks, as I saved both as pdfs then dumped my original source. If you go to
    http://autonews.com
    and search on it, I bet you could find it.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Even though Cooper demand is high, supply is still sort of small. It's not really a volume model, may never be.

    I doubt they'll increase supply that much so we may not ever find out.
  • joem5joem5 Member Posts: 201
    If I were you I'd listen to the guy. You might learn something.
    Four or 5 years ago Himmler, Syder and I use to pull his chain. I think the Yaris,Fit and Scion are the way to go. Let's see the Fiesta and why is the Focus HB in Europe? Why are we the last country to get world cars?
    I understand the Mini is cute,but is it reliable,now that the Germans are building it? There trannys and cluches are blown at 50k and no waranty,plus 5k to 7k to fix out of owners pocket. Americans are suckers not cheap.
    Nippon, Americans maybe cheap,but look At Mazda 3, felt carpeting, styrofoam between recycled plastic grill and radiator,velcroed floor mats, an ash tray and cigarette lighter,RSA Eagle tires wowser dangerous on 1" of snow, also treadlife 18k to 25k if you're lucky.205 5017 low profiles on a sedan.Yes, I know the lighter the car the MPG goes up.
    Beef up the Yaris ,Fit and Scion put heated seats, sunroof.,Or leave them alone just offer a lumbar support.Ford,GM, and Chrysler will never get it.
    Gas will be back at $4.00 again,but how soon we forget. :shades:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Gas will be back at $4.00 again,but how soon we forget

    Agreed, how soon we forget.

    It is frustrating how long it takes automakers to bring their world cars to America, especially Toyota and Honda which each have about 48 models smaller than a Corolla that are already sold elsewhere.

    What does Honda do? Does it bring any of them here? No, it will spend more than two more years reinventing the CRZ, and develop a new small hybrid from whole cloth rather than just offer us some of its more interesting models.

    As for Toyota, I had so heartily hoped that Scion would be a permanent outlet for interesting and wacky small JDM vehicles in America, and instead they turned it into Boresville in less than three years. :-(

    I do applaud the return of the Fiesta though, even if that ALSO will take about a decade to accomplish, and I do wish VW would consider selling the Polo in the States, and that MB goes ahead with its rumored plans for the A-class, or whatever.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    heard about these plans Hyundai has to start selling its i10, a small 5-door hatch halfway in size between a ForTwo and a Fit, in the U.S.? It currently weighs under 1900 pounds, although they estimate it will need 400 pounds of modifications to meet American crash safety standards. It has a 1.1L and a 1.2L engine, the latter with 82 hp (more than enough for such a light car) currently making 47 mpg combined.

    Sale prices for the top model are in the $11K range currently. They build them in India and sell them in 70 countries as of now. I could see this making a go of it in the States. Yes, it would probably be slow, but OTOH it could very well give hybrids and diesels a serious run for their money on the fuel economy front...and Hyundai sounds pretty serious about selling it here as soon as next year.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • joem5joem5 Member Posts: 201
    The car comes with 205 50 17 VR tires . This is a sedan? The tires are made for dry pavement ,even if they are rated all season. Try 1" inch of of snow and grab your rosary beads. The tires cost at dealer $227.00 a piece and $60.00 a pair to be mounted and balanced.
    Now, I just bought 4 Dunlops all season to put on to morrow at $ 60.00 a pair mounted and balanced.Dunlop Sport Signatures :Tire rack reccomended).
    These tires are beefy and will a 2.0 engine handle them ? I think not as far as cornering and mpg,but I'm trying to stay alive.
    Come spring the Mazda is going. I've read horror stories about the tires they go through. I know I'm going to take a losss on a 1 year old car, but I'm not spending $2000.00 a year in 17 inch performance tires.
    Thay's what you get when you don't do your homework.
    So Honda, Fit,Yaris ,Scion,Versa, or Fiesta here I come hat in hand.A Ford Focus HB with a moon roof ,heated seats is history here,but not in Europe.
    The Dumbing Down of American car know how is here. :sick:
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Changing the wheels would be cheaper than dumping the car. I'd bet that the el cheapo steel wheels off a base Focus or something would fit. Main thing is to keep the overall tire diameter about the same.
  • kchaneykchaney Member Posts: 4
    sound's like some exercise is in order. My wife, my sister and my son in his childseat rode around tulsa all day in the backseat with no problems. My nephew at 6foot two sit behind me (I'm 6 foot) on a three hour trip with no problems. maybe we're just real poor and ain't real picky.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Forget the sedan...but why haven't they come out with a 2.0l 5 door? That would seem to appeal to the frugal crowd with gas prices nowadays.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    I almost hate myself for saying this - but only "almost" - here in Europe the Mazda 3 5-door hatch is available with 1.4, 1.6 and 2.0 gassers and 1.6 and 2.0 diesels, the latter with 143bhp. :shades:

    I really do not understand why they aren't available in USA. Hopefully they will be ere long.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    The diesels all come down to emissions. Only just now will we start getting ones that can comply with our stringent particulates regulations, and most (except Honda's, as far as I know) require an additional urea injection system.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Benz bluetecs arrive for MY2009, so they're here. VW has new TDIs also, but I think they cost a bit more with the clean emissions.

    More to come soon.

    Subaru just launched a diesel Forester in europe.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    Here in Europe, Subaru have launched their new "Boxer" diesel in Legacy, (Saloon & Tourer), Forester and Outback. Not in the Imprezza yet but..........................probably just a matter of time.

    Engine is an H4, 2.0Ltr, 148bhp/258Lbft. Must go for a test-drive.

    Have a search on the Subaru UK site for details.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Anybody wanting to ask me any questions, please do.

    I'll say it felt more roomy than the previous fit, but still was a few inches short on front legroom, for me (6'5" 200), where a Civic fits better, and my Accord is fantastic.

    The engine noise seemed greatly reduced from 2008, and the ride seemed a little smoother as well. Engine power felt identical to the 2008, but there was an extra person in my drive today (about 180 lbs) so that probably makes up the difference.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    So they have arrived at your local dealer? I heard they would be a month early - guess that was true....

    My local dealer sold his last '08 Fit ages ago. I imagine they must have been impatient to get the '09s in.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    They had but one 2009; when we got in it it had 5 miles on it. They were ready to deal if we were, but we only drove it out of curiousity. I guess it wasn't just a demo. The sticker was $17,5XX or so, with an extra $299 for the Xylon treatment tacked on. Cute car, but not worth that to me. I'd have a Versa that's better equipped, or better yet, something like a midsize Ford or Hyundai. I'm 6'5", so interior room is worth a premium to me.
  • thegreatozthegreatoz Member Posts: 39
    I had money down on my dealer's next '09 FIT and after today's test drive, I decided not to trade in my Civic EX ('06 12,550 miles). The engine was peppy from 0-25, but was noisy and whiny up to 55. Handling was a little jittery at 55 also.

    My primary turn-off was the "fuzzy cardboard" for the seatbacks and cargo floor. It's certainly not up to supporting heavy loads or rough wear & tear. The dashboard and doors were as nice as the Civic in quality, however. The cloth seats were a little lower quality than the Civic.

    All in all, for $19g (Sport/AT/Navi) you don't get the ride and engine and quiet you can in a Civic...for just a couple of more g's...and equally decent gas mileage.

    I was hoping to downsize and get sporty with the FIT, but IMHO it's no competition for the Civic. Had it been a Blackberry Pearl instead of a Storm Silver, I might have been persuaded to think about it more.

    By the way, this Honda dealer keeps the $500 deposit if you don't follow through with the deal. Is that common practice? A phone call from my attorney resulted in "keeping the $500 in escrow for use on a future deal."
  • badselfbadself Member Posts: 39
    You got screwed by not setting the terms of your deposit up front, and obviously by not reading the fine print the dealer locked you into.

    The practice is deplorable, but unfortunately, you put yourself there, and with little or no bargaining power now that the dealer has your cash and little incentive to discount.
  • thegreatozthegreatoz Member Posts: 39
    Yup...too enthusiastic over the FIT.

    If the FIT is so scarce, especially certain colors, there's no dealer incentive to discount, even if I weren't the village idiot.
    :(
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    A phone call from your attorney and they still didn't give the money back? And, your attorney accepted that?

    I'm not impressed with your attorney.. I'd call the local prosecutor... I wouldn't let anyone keep my money without due consideration.. I think they would be hard-pressed to show an actual loss from you backing out on the deal.

    regards,
    kyfdx
    visiting host-not a lawyer

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    Why would they have to show a LOSS??? If he signed an agreement that states "Non-refundable deposit" it is his LOSS.. not theirs. What type of complaint could a local prosecutor do???? People order cars, put down a deposit (in his case $500.00). He agrees to a NON refundable deposit and then he changes his mind!!!! Forget it!!!!!He loses that $$$$.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    for the new Fiesta:

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080905/FREE/809059991/1528/- newsletter01

    Why is this car still two years away in the United States?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    It won't stand up... if there is no consideration on both parts, then there is no contract...

    If the contract isn't fulfilled, then they would have to show damages to keep the money..

    In the car business, there are no non-refundable deposits.. no matter what he signed... If they keep his money, they have to show that he got something for it, or they had a loss.. I don't think they can do that on a Honda FIT, that sells as soon as it hits the lot..

    regards,
    kyfdx

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's crazy, you're a loyal Honda buyer and they actually kept your deposit?

    Sheesh. How would they treat Joe Schmoe. :sick:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    They are still working on decontenting it to a level suitable for the NA market :sick:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    They are still working on decontenting it to a level suitable for the NA market

    I bet if you found a bunch of people willing to pay $28,000 for it like they do in the EU, you might be able to convince them to bring it over. Of course you will still need it to pass the North American FMVSS requirements and safety requirements...

    Hmm yeah, there is a car in Europe and all Ford has to do is just drop it off here in the states and make a killing...those slick folks in Dearborn must not have thought of trying that....
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    But a fair bit of that 28K exists because of insane taxes in the EU region, and the depreciated greenback. Compare the home market prices with local purchasing power and relative to other vehicles offered in a given market, and it isn't so bad. It might not be something that would sticker for 10K, but there are people who will pay for a premium product.

    Given the actions of the big 2.5 over the past few decades, there are a lot of folks in Detroit who are as slick as sandpaper :P
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    no bickering! According to the article, these cars are "Priced from the equivalent of $11,000" in Europe. They aren't going for any $28K.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    "in the car business there are NO non-refundable deposits"....I would like a car salesperson to chime in on this...Has any dealer ever kept a deposit... I certainly can remember some posts that I have read where the deposit has been kept by the dealer (however, I don't remember where I read it)!!!!!
  • thegreatozthegreatoz Member Posts: 39
    nortsr1 wrote: "If he signed an agreement that states "Non-refundable deposit" it is his LOSS.. not theirs."

    LOL, I signed NOTHING...but the check. :shades:

    Plus...a check for $500 from the dealer arrived yesterday in the mail.

    My attorney's rate is $350/hour. Luckily, his paralegal made the phone call. ;)
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    It won't stand up... if there is no consideration on both parts, then there is no contract...

    It will stand up, if the contract specifically stated that the deposit was non refundable and the dealership acted in good faith and tried to fulfill the contract than it is enforceable. Remember that the customer refused to complete the contract not the dealership. The consideration on the part of the dealership was the willingness to sell him the car and follow through on it.

    Now if the sale didn't go through because of the dealership then it wouldn't be enforceable.

    That being said it would be a good business practice to refund the deposit as a goodwill jester.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • thegreatozthegreatoz Member Posts: 39
    ateixeira wrote: ...a loyal Honda buyer...

    My Civic and Ridgeline are from another dealer. I was just hoping to patronize this dealer much closer to home.
    :blush:
  • thegreatozthegreatoz Member Posts: 39
    snakeweasel wrote: ...a goodwill jester

    LOL, perfect name for a dealership! :D
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    And yet... he got his check back... :)

    Seriously.. go to small claims court, and see if any judge is going to rule for a dealer keeping your deposit... when there is no transaction, and they can show no damages..

    I love happy endings..

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Shows you how good spell check is. :blush:

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • podredpodred Member Posts: 127
    Why is this car still two years away in the United States?
    Simple really.... Ford is gripped in FEAR, as they may actually Make Money Selling A Good Car Like This.... then what would they do?.... :)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Why is this car still two years away in the United States?
    Simple really.... Ford is gripped in FEAR, as they may actually Make Money Selling A Good Car Like This.... then what would they do?...

    Yes yes, that must be it. I am sure that a company like Ford losing market share like my dog sheds fur wouldn't be interested in bringing a vehicle that promises to be a huge hit to market as fast as possible.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    So then, the question remains: why so long? The gas prices have been through the roof and Ford's NA market share has been sliding fast the entire time the Euro Fiesta was being developed. It is now on sale in Europe, yet we wait two more years?

    I like the car, but the company really deserves to end its days in ignominy.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    My guess is they have to modify the car to meet the US safety regulations.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    My guess is this is another case of totally failing to plan ahead or offer a diversified line-up of cars, then making a half-assed attempt to catch up to the current trends.

    In the case of the Fiesta, I will call it a 3/4-assed attempt, since the car seems to be so good. :-P
    But they will still be two years late.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    thank you, Snakeweasel for backing me up!!! on my opinion. He, as he later stated, did not sign anything, so it was refunded, however; if he HAD signed an agreement and it specifically stated "NON-REFUNDABLE", than it would have been enforceable!!!!
    I also agree with you that it is a good business practice to refund the deposit as a goodwill jester.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    My guess is this is another case of totally failing to plan ahead or offer a diversified line-up of cars, then making a half-assed attempt to catch up to the current trends.

    1/11/07 Ave price/gallon $2.10
    6/23/08 Ave price/gallon $4.01

    Gas prices doubling in 18 months is relatively unprecedented.

    It is ashame that the automakers with large, high profit vehicles didn't invest some of those proceeds in methods to make a profit on smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles. Instead they provided vehicles like the Aveo and Cobalt that lack any feeling of quality, the Focus, which is okay if you can get past the styling.

    So the automakers adjust to the market, try to create smaller, more fuel efficient cars and then they get beat up for not doing it fast enough :sick:
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    but, come on, weren't people somewhat forecasting higher ghastly prices for years leading up to this? Were they or weren't they? Maybe they were clueless that China, India, Russia, the like, were going to demand their come-uppings fast and good, like they are. And make the cash-poor(Yeah, Right)oil companies have to jump up, shake their fists, and demand more cash-per-gallon.

    Ford should have been on this about 10 years ago. Divert some more cash from truck and SUV winnings to small car research and design. Seriously, it is too bad, I've been a Ford guy primarily, and my last two Ford's, a '94 Escort wagon and a '97 Escort sedan, were reasonably all right cars. Part of what turned me to Kia and their Sephia was better gas mileage and part of it was bodystyle design. Apparently a lot of Americans didn't see the body design part of it, but, I knew that Kia made the Festiva for Ford in the late 1980's, and I liked the Festiva's body design...even. :)

    So there ya go, I now look to Mitsubishi of Japan and Kia of South Korea for my rig purchases. The new Ford Fiesta is a great new look IMO, but, really, Ford, 2010? At least revise that to come to the U.S. sometime in 2009!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    but, come on, weren't people somewhat forecasting higher ghastly prices for years leading up to this? Were they or weren't they?

    There is a guy I pass every day on my way to work (and I used to pass him on my way to school) that has a sign that says Jesus is coming. I am assuming that is his prediction, but he is still standing there so I assume it hasn't happened yet.

    Seriously, it is too bad, I've been a Ford guy primarily, and my last two Ford's, a '94 Escort wagon and a '97 Escort sedan, were reasonably all right cars.

    The Escorts and Contour and Tauri I have been responsible for have been alright for me as well. I think the previous generation Focus SVT 5-door is a fantastic car and high on my target list (although the MazdaSpeed6 is still a stretch target).
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    So the automakers adjust to the market, try to create smaller, more fuel efficient cars and then they get beat up for not doing it fast enough

    Yes, but you miss the point. They weren't offering a diverse line-up before. They were offering 26 different versions of the same 18 mpg, 7-seat truck, and a couple of cars to go with it (I am exaggerating of course, but I hope you get my drift)

    Who made out like bandits this year? The ones who offered a FULL line-up of cars all along, and already had small fuel-efficient cars in the showroom when the fit hit the shan.

    Ford has had more than 100 years to offer a proper diversity of cars. But trucks was where they wanted to hang their hats, trucks trucks trucks. I have thought many a time in the last 3 years that they might do well to just abandon the car market altogether and focus on being a niche truck manufacturer.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I bet they were making empty threats to keep the money to see if you'd cave. Once they figured the deal was out of the question, they sent the money back to avoid litigation.

    Jesters, indeed. ;)
  • thegreatozthegreatoz Member Posts: 39
    ateixeira wrote: I bet they were making empty threats to keep the money to see if you'd cave.

    You're probably right. Spending $19,000 to recover $500 is 'fuzzy math'! :D

    Guess which Honda dealer I won't be visiting when the 2010 Insight comes out? ;)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    Who made out like bandits this year? The ones who offered a FULL line-up of cars all along, and already had small fuel-efficient cars in the showroom when the fit hit the shan.

    I'll at least give Ford credit for having the Focus, and GM credit for having the Cobalt and Aveo. Chrysler, however, was really caught with their pants down, dumping the so-so Neon for the relatively thirsty, chunky, heavy Caliber.

    But the Civic and Corolla are mopping the floor with them. How is the Sentra selling these days? I imagine it's doing pretty well too, although nowhere near Civic or Corolla volume.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I'll at least give Ford credit for having the Focus, and GM credit for having the Cobalt and Aveo. Chrysler, however, was really caught with their pants down, dumping the so-so Neon for the relatively thirsty, chunky, heavy Caliber.

    I thought the Focus was a great ride in the previous generation. The SVT 5 door is intriguing to me. The Cobalt felt pretty miserable whenever I touched anything (cilmate control and radio, especially), and the Aveo was very uncomfortable for me. At under 10k though, it might still be a bargain for those who can't bring themselves to get a used Civic.

    The Neon is an especially bad case IMHO. A 130 or 150 hp small coupe or sedan that was fun to drive and had reasonable fuel economy gets axed for McCrossover Happy Meal. I thought the first generation Neon had a lot going for it, especially the ACR and Sport editions.
Sign In or Register to comment.