What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

fintail · February 2011

At least it didn't have the weird 4 spoke designs that were so prevalent, or some of the bizarre stuff they did in the 90s.

I think hubcaps can be decent sometimes...easier to keep clean anyway.

bumpy · February 2011

The tires wear evenly from side to side, but the rears wore quicker than the fronts. I do drive it hard sometimes, I chalked it up to that.

Changing the toe and camber settings might get you more tread life. You'd have to hit up some Benz forums to find the details, though. Also depends on what tires you have. Running a mild alignment on full-blown summer tires might stretch your tire life from, say, 8,000 miles all the way to 10,000.

crkyolfrt · February 2011

I wish they would hurry up about it already. But I think there is still a pretty big market of suckers out there who hasn't figured out all the negatives yet.

In looking at numerous new vehicles of varying styles and price brackets, it seems like the new found goal of mfgrs is to wagon wheel the entire line. It is like 17" is hard to find on base cars.

Just because a guy wants a 16" with 60 or 65 series tires, doesn't mean he has no use for a power seat, or a highend audio.

I think I will probably stay put with my present ride which is drop-dead dependable, even if the seat is a killer.

I'll wait for the proverbial pendulum to finish its swing and will look forward to the middle downstroke again. Maybe there will be more diesel sticks by then too. Next will be the grave after that..

fintail · February 2011

They are all seasons - we don't have much of a full blown winter or summer here, few people change tires with the seasons. The car also has staggered wheels, so I can't do much in the way of rotating.

The previous set lasted a little over 20K, I expect the new ones to do the same. On forums I have read similar experiences.

fintail · February 2011

The pendulum will swing back, if anything because as globalization suffocates disposable incomes, the big tires simply won't be affordable. But it will be a slow correction. I still say it is 95% for looks - flashy wheels can distract from bland or ugly cars.

ateixeira · February 2011

You basically should get the smallest wheels that fit over your brake rotors. Often 15" is enough, but some (mainstream) cars would needs 16"s.

One thing, though, is that you may find better tire selection in the bigger sizes - higher speed ratings, more dry grip, etc.

20"s on a Venza or Murano, though? Pure style over substance. Imagine how much unsprung weight those suspensions have to fight with, unnecessarily. I bet the brakes would fit inside 16"s, 17"s max.

fintail · February 2011

Venza and Murano are classic cases of wheels distracting from ugly cars.

Most family cars or commuters don't need speed tires anyway.

I know my E55 can run 17s...the spare is a 17 (18 won't fit in the spare tire well, from what I've been told)

stickguy · February 2011

not sure what some makers were thinking.

my accord (4 cyl) has nice, old fashioned, 60 series 16" tires. But Honda for some reason put V rated tires on it. I have no clue why, but they did.

not that big a deal, except some tire places will only put on what it came with for speed rating, and the same tire is usually more ($10-20) per tire V vs. H.

I did go with a store that was fine with putting on H rated (same load range), saving money. But now I have 3 H and 1 V (with 8K less miles), after one tire shredded on the highway shortly after (on a trip), and the store I found with that same tire put on a V not an H. same price, and if I hadn't looked, I never could have told!

they do usually where out slightly faster, so i guess they will all end upbald at the same time!

nippononly · February 2011

That settles that. The 2013 Ford Focus SE hatchback in 5-speeds, "Goldfinger" color, and inexpensive 16" radials

Whatever happened to the Fiesta? It's out of the running? With the Fiesta I believe you have to go with the SES or an option package to get the 16s, otherwise you get 15s. But I tried both, and the 16s are well worth the extra money for the SES (other things inside get nicer with the SES too).

I bet a Fiesta SES with most of the trimmings except the NAV package will cost you the same as that Focus will once it has the options you want. And the Fiesta will handle better due to a shorter wheelbase and less weight. :shades:

iluvmysephia1 · February 2011

that the Ford Fiesta is too small. So that pushes the car class to compact only for me right now. Subcompacts are just too small inside. The 2012 Ford Focus SE Hatchback in 5-speed manual form plus a decent stereo and the Goldfinger color is my latest choice for purchase in 2013.

Unless Mitsubishi makes a Hybrid Lancer GTS for 2013. I would be interested in test-driving one of those.

aladdinsane · March 2011

Howdy...
In NYC many Smart ForTwos can be seen, and it seems more and more of them are being purchased and driven about. That's not my point here. What I need to say here has been in the back of my mind as I see these small runabouts increasing in circulation:
I would purchase the ForTwo if Benz made these modifications to the machine:
1- Increase the bumper to bumper warranty from 2 to THREE years, with free maintenance included. The current warranty just doesn't cut it, speaking for myself.
2- Rid the ForTwo of its current transmission and give it a manual, if possible, and a CVT as optional.
3- Make this vehicle run on REGULAR petrol...NOT premium as it is now.
4- Increase MPG, somehow...someway...
These four points above would make the machine far more attractive to city dwellers, such as in NYC, SF, L.A., etc, who want or need a small vehicle as a runabout for errands, etc.

Perhaps the forthcoming iQ micro will address these issues the ForTwo currently lacks.

Time will tell...

MB: ARE YOU LISTENING? I'm not alone when it comes to wanting certain things improved with your machine.

It seems the suits at Smart aren't listening.

Peace!<-AladdinSane-<- :shades: -

hpmctorque · March 2011

I recently read that premium gasoline is also recommended (or required, don't remember which term was used) for the Fiat 500. I've never seen an explanation as to why, as economy cars, albeit premium ones, they're not designed to keep overall fuel costs low, at least in the base models.

aladdinsane · March 2011

So true!!!
You see what I mean in one of my "points."
Bravo!
Peace<-AladdinSane-<- :shades: -

hpmctorque · March 2011

Since they're able to get better performance and, maybe, all else being the same, better mpg numbers from an engine that's tuned for premium, these factors obviously trump overall fuel economy for these brands.

I wonder how many people decide to buy another vehicle because of the premium gas requirements. Maybe Smart, Mini and 500 buyers are motivated more by the "cute" and "easy-to-park and maneuver" factors than top fuel economy. I'm thinking that if fuel economy and utility were the very top priorities, people would choose something like a Ford Fiesta, Chevy Cruze or Hyundai Elantra over those smaller cars.

samm43 · March 2011

That is a very reasonable list. You could cover a few of those bases with just one change. They should offer it with turbo diesel, and like you said a proper 5 speed manual. In fact they used to offer a diesel with a 6 speed manual transmission. It was rated for 51 city and 62 highway.
Why they don't sell the diesel any longer is beyond me. I heard that sales dropped like a stone because most were buying the diesel. I suspect too restrictive emissions regs were probably behind it.

ateixeira · March 2011

Have we reached a rare consensus?

I like that list of suggestions, too.

tifighter · March 2011

Why the smart isn't leading the EV market I don't know. Although they will find a way to mess it up, it should be a great candidate: lightweight, low cost on a platform that is already paid for. City-friendly footprint and never bought as a primary car. Something that light should be able to beat the 100 mile range of the Leaf, but what do I know. C'mon, Daimler, make that investment in Tesla mean something...

ateixeira · March 2011

This concept may supply a hint:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/03/01/smart-forspeed-concept-geneva-reveal/

tifighter · March 2011

Yeah, I saw this earlier, which is why I mentioned I thought they'd screw it up. I don't think an 85 mile range will cut it in the minds of the consumer; it needs to beat the range of the Leaf in order for the average customer to be willing to give up the extra doors and size of the Nissan. Or be significantly cheaper.

Maybe the smart just doesn't have the physical size to the store the batteries needed for longer range.

bumpy · March 2011

Maybe the smart just doesn't have the physical size to the store the batteries needed for longer range.

This. It also doesn't have any extra space for all the exhaust treatment equipment required to get the diesel to pass EPA emissions standards.

snakeweasel · March 2011

Some comments if you don't mind.

Increase the bumper to bumper warranty from 2 to THREE years, with free maintenance included. The current warranty just doesn't cut it, speaking for myself.

Increasing the warranty would be good but realistically if something doesn't go out in 2 years what are the odds of it going out in the third year? A 5 year warranty would be better IMHO.

Rid the ForTwo of its current transmission and give it a manual, if possible, and a CVT as optional.

I have mixed emotions of having a Smart with a manual. I live in the Chicago area and I think that anyone driving a stick in Chicago traffic is a glutton for punishment. A very dense urban environment is not manual transmission friendly and I think it might hurt sales as this is being marketed to urban settings. A CVT would be a plus.

Make this vehicle run on REGULAR petrol...NOT premium as it is now.

That would be nice, however since premium has always been about 20 cents a gallon more than RUG the difference between the two as a percentage becomes less as gas prices rise.

Increase MPG, somehow...someway...

Agreed but I wonder how much of an increase can be had without more of a sacrifice or making the Smart cost more. There is only so much enerhy in a gallon of gas and every increase of 1 MPG becomes harder and harder.

May I add make it more cost efficent. For about the same price I could get an Elantra and get effectively as good or better mileage

aladdinsane · March 2011

Do I mind the comments?
Not at all.
By all means.
One can learn much by reading other's comments.
I'm no know it all.
I agree with some points you made.
Bravo!
Now if only the suits at Smart read these observations and followed through with some, if not all, our suggestions.
Am I dreaming?
Possibly...
Peace!<-AladdinSane-<- :shades: -

aladdinsane · March 2011

I almost forgot...
A 5 year bumper to bumper warranty, with at least three years of free maintenance, would be GREAT on the ForTwo...
I only mentioned a three year warranty period because this is what some automakers provide, on average.
The two year warranty provided for the ForTwo isn't so smart, if U get my drift...

Peace!<-AladdinSane-<- :shades:

ateixeira · March 2011

A change to ANY other transmission would be good.

Around here the premium for premium is close to $0.30-35. Depends on the station, I guess.

angel53 · March 2011

changes will not run well if not followed by something new, more attractive.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2011

there's nothing wrong with this pup, a 2012 Kia Rio sedan.

And it's a subcompact, too.

iluvmysephia1 · March 2011

for snow country, one of these would fit me spot-on, especially it's AWD aspects.

2011 Mitsubishi Outlander Sport

iluvmysephia1 · March 2011

I am strong, watch me grow. Don't buy German, like a certain mustachiod man around 1941, they are only wanting your life, money and happiness. Don't succumb. To them.

nippononly · March 2011

is finally available for test drives at a dealer in the Bay Area. Fiat of Concord has finally opened, although there will be no stock beyond the demo car for a few more weeks. I might go over there and test drive one today!

Of course, Fiat presents the same problem as Mini for me: living in the North Bay I have a choice of only Concord or San Francisco for service and warranty repair. Both makes have at best average reliability. And in the case of Fiat, the SF dealer isn't even open yet - they are thinking maybe the fall. Neither has a dealer in my county. May just have to stick with the Fit in the end, Marin still has a Honda dealer, but still want to at least test drive the 500....

stickguy · March 2011

I need to check with the dealer near me, and if they have one for drives, may just have to take a run over this week!

oldguy89 · March 2011

I did some checking and the engine has a 10:1 compression ratio, which maybe the reason for premium unleaded. Many good points are made, and sure I would like a Turbo, CVT?? not so sure, but a full on standard no way. I use both standard mode and automatic mode, depending on traffic conditions. I doubt that any small electric vehicle will get more then 100 miles per charge.(Notice I said touted) To many variables between heat and cold, driving conditions and the amount of accessories used in the car to get better. Tesla makes the best sense, but for the touted bucks forget about it. I have put 17K on my smart and I like it quite a bit but rely upon a cadillac escalade when not driving my smart, so really gas milage, and price per gal isn't an issue for me, so I don't whine over the price of gas when I fill my smart.
Fiat a contender? Maybe, but the last time it was sold in this country quality and parts were so bad that is why they left, so their track record will have to be much better.
For me one of the reason I like the smart is that it isn't a Japanese econo box, they are just not for me.

ateixeira · March 2011

it isn't a Japanese econo box

As opposed to a european econo box?

tifighter · March 2011

Juice beat me to it.

ateixeira · March 2011

I test drove a Smart - what's killing sales is the world's jerkiest transmission.

No bias for/against Japanese cars - the Toyota MR2 SMG had the 2nd worst transmission I've ever sampled.

They're both sales-repellant.

michaellno · March 2011

it isn't a Japanese econo box

As opposed to a european econo box?

Didn't you get the memo from marketing?

In Europe, they're known as "Premium Subcompacts"

:P

tifighter · March 2011

MR2 SMG was basically a clutchless manual, right? I see them come up from time to time on craigslist, but it seems like poison from a parts and maintenance point of view...

ateixeira · March 2011

That just means the price went up. LOL

Honestly, I think the Scion iQ is the last nail in the Smart ForTwo's coffin.

nippononly · March 2011

Of course, it will also be automatic-only, CVT in the iQ's case. What happened to making manuals standard in small inexpensive cars? Makes 'em faster, keeps 'em cheaper too.....

ateixeira · March 2011

That's still less-bad.

stever · March 2011

What happened to making manuals standard in small inexpensive cars?

I think the main emphasis is to make the subcompacts get the best mpg possible to help the fleet average so the automakers can make money on the bigger cars.

Automatics/CVTs get better mpg, at least on the EPA tests.

nippononly · March 2011

Automatics/CVTs get better mpg, at least on the EPA tests.

Yup, just not in real life. Checked out CR's recorded fuel economy in two cars on their list - the Fit manual and the Fit auto. The manual is rated 27/33, the auto (base model) is rated 28/35, yet CR's real-world mileage was 30 for the auto, 33 for the stick. And that kind of result is repeated in many other models.

Automakers can cater to the test in the programming they give their automatics, if they like. I will know which one will actually get better mileage in the real world.

And if they use the 1.5 from the Yaris in the iQ, there is already a manual for it from the Yaris - why would they not use it in the iQ? Of course, they may be intending to use the 1.3 in the iQ, I can't remember what the decision there was.

stever · March 2011

The Fit is one of the few cars that I've actually driven in both AT and manual modes. You have to put your foot into it in the automatic. The manual is peppy enough just shifting through the gears.

Funny how it works in real life.

plekto · March 2011

I did some checking and the engine has a 10:1 compression ratio, which maybe the reason for premium unleaded.

It's a catch-22 as to get decent fuel economy out of an engine you need low rpms and small displacement. But this means that you also have low torque and low compression. This leaves you with a slow vehicle. You can try to "fix" this by making it run hotter to extract a bit more energy from the fuel(though gasoline is a terrible fuel from an efficiency standpoint).

With an engine this small, you're essentially out of luck. It lacks the torque to overcome the car's weight without revving it too high to where MPG suffers.

What they really need to do is put a small 600cc-900cc I-6 engine in it. It should get about 60-70HP but have the same torque as the current Smart's engine. With much lower RPMs, and better torque, highway mileage will skyrocket to 60+, or close to the first generation models. Stick a 6 speed in it as well.

Something perfect would be an engine like the old Benelli SEI 750 had in it. It was de-tuned to use regular gas and "only" made 76HP. But MPG figures are really high for its time, approaching ~350-400CC motorcycles due to the lower RPMs and better torque(of course if you flog it, it's going to suffer) ~50-60mpg in stock form, though most have been re-jetted and have lost a *lot* of performance over the years, so you'll get about 40-45mpgout of a used one.
(~35 year old motorcycle - still gets ~45mpg - that's amazing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelli_750_Sei
Check out a video of one running - something like this is what we need instead of environmentally ruinous batteries. Small little 6 and 8 cylinder engines with enough torque to handle daily driving, yet deliver 50+mpg.

Plus, it sounds awesome.

stever · March 2011

Renault May Reinvent Le Car (AutoObserver)

ateixeira · March 2011

Not exactly a name they'd want to bring back to the US. Just keep the R5 name if it does come here.

plekto · March 2011

But, yet again, they miss the real issue and don't offer a proper small high torque engine with it. This, as I mentioned, can be done by more cylinders while keeping the same displacement, or with a TDI type setup.

We'll probably get an outsourced Japanese 4 cylinder engine and maybe something that runs partially on batteries. All yours for $20K!

Q: Where are the itty bitty $12-$13K diesel cars that we so sorely need?

samm43 · March 2011

Q: Where are the itty bitty $12-$13K diesel cars that we so sorely need?

Great question.
A: Caught up in (or rather not able to make the way to the gate) bureaucracy and gvt intervention.

A $12500.00 diesel Accent, Yaris, Rio class, equipped with the same level of goodies as the gas engine 10k car is now, would sell easily. Word-of-mouth alone would make it so they couldn't keep the cars in stock. The country is restricted by idiots with power.

Although, no intended offense to those suffering with asthma which I have read recently affects some asthma sufferers more breathing diesel fumes than gas apparently. OTOH though, these tiny diesels pollute less than the larger sized gas engine in the same number of miles.

Sam

ateixeira · March 2011

VW should bring a diesel Polo here...

fezo · March 2011

I don't think that's your answer. Truth is anytime a maker has tried to market a diesel here it's been a flop. Heck, the fitzmall people are selling Jett Sportwagen TDIs at below invoice!

stickguy · March 2011

you do realize this means I have to check Fitzmall now, right?

thanks, troublemaker.

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

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