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Comments
that's what I suggested as well. You know its coming, so rather than fight it on the back end, fight it on the front end.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I know exactly how he manages. He’s a tighta$$ !!!.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
richard....I'm going to circle a date on my calendar and see how close I actually come to your "Merc/Lincoln buy date. Won't tell you the date, but I'm getting a "gut feel" that once spring hits and the weather turns, your attitude will change from "just looking" to "buy".
j.....I do like the Genesis. I've already put it in my mind that the tahoe's relevance is diminishing for me since I no longer tow. Honestly, if they would have accepted my offer last night, I would have signed the papers on it.
I really shouldn't make a trip back to the dealership to drive a V8 since that's going to be further away from an acceptable deal than the V6 is. Hyundai must have some healthy money on the demos, though. They said "a little above invoice" on a new (non-demo) model. Don't know that their definition of "little" is the same as mine, though.
If you do test drive one, I'd love to hear your impressions. I agree with most reviews I've read. While it may not be a 5 series or Audi 6, it's mighty close.
I kept telling myself last night that the tahoe isn't going to appreciate. My son will be taking over the Accord in a few months. Why not pull the trigger?
Need to stand back a bit and quit trying to justify it, though.
My '93 Taurus suffered from this problem. 2 Sets from 48K to 100K miles. The mechanic said it almost never happened on the 3.0 motor but was common on the 3.8. Excess weight over the front wheels?
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Just like mop-n-glo, rust-n-dust, doc fees morphed here from a legitimate charge for a legitimate service to another junk add-on scheme that allows to lower advertised price without technically lying. It's irresistible, when allowed. People adjust to that, but it basically makes price shopping hard without real OTD offers (which of course you won't get without "showing you are serious", whatever that means). There is some progress - state recently mandated better disclosure of the fee and dealers have to place stickers informing about its amount on every car on the lot.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Richard
Richard
You know me too well! :P
Richard
Unfortunately when profit margins shrink on one end, any business will try to make it up by making money elsewhere.
It's same as bank fees, overdraft fees, bounced check fees, handling part of shipping and handling, etc...
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Richard
Same here. I had a '92 Taurus with the 3.8.
It's annoying nevertheless. Just another layer of dishonesty between the customer and the provider (and potential long term damage to relations), if you ask me.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The funny thing is majority of people will go where they see a lower number.
So if dealer A advertises an OTD price with fees and taxes, and dealer B advertises a bare bones price plus fees and taxes, dealer B will get more traffic even if his price is more after adding everything in.
The reality is most people don't look at their total cost of purchasing a vehicle. Most don't even read the sales contract and just chuck it in the glovebox. 90% of people don't know how much they owe on their car when asked during a vehicle appraisal or a phone call. All that many care for is what their payment is and what they're getting for that payment.
The dealer that gets the most traffic is the one with lower advertised prices/payments. That's just how the business works.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Okay, I had to get this milestone out of the way.
Normally, I would just shake my head and claim that I never pay any attention to such ads. However, on the way home today I heard a radio ad claiming that this dealer would sell some sort of Suzuki sedan new for $10K.
For a while the thought of driving a new car for that price floated around in my head.
So I guess that stuff does work. Shame on us greedy buyers.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
The 3.8's used to break front motor mounts, blow head gaskets and transmissions. I do remember they ate tie rod ends too.
The 3.0's were much better in those days.
In other words - I find this car retail business particularly cagey in its efforts to obscure real cost of the product from the buyer for as long as possible. Airlines and banks do that, too, but guess who is in biggest trouble today. Also guess who has lowest satisfaction scores from the service and who has least amount of trust and goodwill from customers.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Now if they run to the licence office and have government forms to fill out maybe they should get paid $50 to cover that.
But next thing you know, 7-11 will be charging $1 for doc fees on a quart of milk, because of the costs involved in ringing it up!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Not only that but we fought over that little redhead on the swings.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Simple, take the hourly salary of the person doing the paperwork and multiply it by how long it takes them to do the paperwork (on average) then bump it by about 20-25% (for employment taxes, insurance and benefits) and you have the direct costs. My guess is that the direct costs are well under $30.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Anyways consumers have more access than ever to know the cost, price, profit, margins, and other charges on any new vehicle sold in North America right now, so it's pretty hard to obscure a cost of a vehicle, even if an unscrupuous dealer wanted to.
In addition for those that don't feel like doing their research, they can pay the sticker price, which is posted on every window, if they feel the value is there.
But just like in anything else in life, if you want to save yourself money, especially when we're talking about thousands, you just have to put some time, effort, and maybe legwork into it. You just can't make or save money without raising a finger.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Well the polo shirt has the tollway logo on it, not sure if that will help me.
FWIW they have a sticker of $16,995 on it, KBB.com has it valued at $15,985 and they have it as $14,995 on their website. I am pretty sure that that $14,995 is near their floor, if not the lowest possible price.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It just hit me - There is really nothing I can think of being comparable in its disingenuity to a $500-700 "doc" fee ($500 to prepare documents? Really? Perhaps I should take that job). Some things do come close, but they are not the same. One can find twenty different justifications, but truth is really simple - junk charge designed to catch one into thinking the product is cheaper than it really is. All those airline luggage, bank charges may or may not be reasonable in their amounts, but there is always a way of not paying them (don't take luggage, don't be late on your payment, etc.). In some ways they do represent an added value. Price was stripped to "bare bone" service, but there is a way to obtain that service if desired. Luggage does cost money to be transported (extra fuel) and when fuel was more expensive, so it is charged extra and promotes business passenger without it.
If you showed me a way to opt out of a doc fee (e.g. I take the papers to DMV myself and save $500) than we will have the same thing. But we don't, do we? The only thing I can think of being in the same category as a doc fee is fuel surcharge (no way of opting out, opportunity to advertize lower price without it actually being lower). But even then airlines don't hide it from you the same way car dealers do. When you go to Travelocity and get a full trip quote just after you click "Find". One could only wish the same when buying a car.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Here is a fun story on the doc fee. In one of my Honda experiences in dealing with a dealer who promised me "x" price only to discover it was "x-plus". I decided to change my price as well. In Illinois the dealer gets to keep a small percentage (1.75%) of the sales tax collected. This is the States way of compensating retailers for remitting the taxes. So any retailer gets to take a "credit" on the return.
So, I started arguing for a reduced doc fee for this credit. I wanted some of this "profit" This was my way to get back at them for the x + plus pricing. It was actually comical for awhile since at first no one would admit to knowing what i was talking about.
I eventually walked out, but at least I did it with a smile.
When you got to the F&I office, and get a final bill of sale to sign, that's how. :P
Dino I understand where you're coming from (literally and figuratively) but we can be going on about this back and forth. You don't like doc fees, I don't like surprising my customers with doc fees, but they're there whether we like it or not. Is there away to avoid it? Buy a used car privately. Otherwise negotiate an OTD price and like someone said, don't worry about where the dealer divies up the money.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
If you sold 300 cars/month would you really say, "no thanks to the $1,800,000 additional money per year?
A win, win, win situation. Customer and dealer have lower costs and I make a @$#t pot full of money !! Who wants to sign up first?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I like that but the word you're looking for is "disingenuousness."
Someone has to pick up the slack while Richard is still out looking for a car.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Actually its a discount for paying by a certain date.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And yes, its only allowed for remitting the payment "and" return by the due date. Which I just assume for our discussion purposes all dealers are remitting timely.
anyways, we had some stock in a company that was aquired last year and stock was retired.
in order to figure out how much we originally paid for it, about 20 years ago, i went through the old tax statements.
i found the sales contract for a car i bought in 1986.
base msrp was 12k + 300 for ugraded radio/cassette + 800 for a/c + 899 FOR DEALER PREP.
when i traded it in 2 years later, i got 12k, so it worked out ok.
We expect a blow-by-blow account of the sales adventure.
Richard
Actually, I wasn't out looking for a car today. I was out making money so that I can look for cars this weekend. :P
BTW, a teacher in one of my classes told me this afternoon that she had used up all of her sick days. She said that she would just have to call in dead tomorrow. We all just howled!
Thanks for pitching in for me.
Richard
I am taking the wife to look at it this afternoon after work, since it will be hers she has the last word on buying it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Wow, that beats anything I've seen so far (the record was $799). Do I see a thousand? Thousand from the gentlement from Jimmy's Jeep, $1100 from lady from Bob's Toyota, anyone $1200? $1200 Mr. Joe's Honda. Do I see $1500? $1200 once, $1200 twice... $1500 from gentlemen...
Soon enough we will have ads for $1 car with $20K prep fee. It's coming, it's coming ...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I can't think of too many business that charge their customers a doc fee. I thought that is what business's do, they sell you an item and then they fill out the forms, take your money, and say good bye. Now you have to pay them to fill out the forms so they can take your money. Next you'll pay a fee for the janitorial services so they can keep the showroom clean! :P
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
They keep hiding the profit, we'll find it... then grind it. :P :P
2018 430i Gran Coupe
There is a heck of a lot more paperwork (financing, DMV, the title for the trade in, etc) than buying a washer. I am not saying there should be a huge fee for paperwork but $50 - $100 seems reasonable. Like others said just make an OTD offer you are comfortable with and let the dealer decide how to distribute the $.
FWIW the dealer add-ons you mention are a completely different thing. I won't buy a car with those type of add-ons either. If I want a pinstripe the body shop up the street will kindly do it for $35.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
jmonroe
ROFLMAO....... You always know how to make me laugh JM.... Keep up the good work
GP
We charge 50.00 and that helps pay some of our admin costs.
600.00 is nuts.
We don't see any of this money and everyone pays it, even me.
Have to agree with Isell.... $600 is nuts but you ussauly only see that in high line vehicles..... or Florida :P
Here we charge $295.... That includes a full tank of gas, detail of the vehicle, Your state inspection sticker (Which is $29 here in Ma.), and for compliance regulations we have to keep your file on record for 7 years... so you are essentialy paying for storage.
But most of that money goes directly to the dealership's administration. there is a lot of paper work that happens when you buy a vehicle. Someone has to pay those pretty little ladies in the office.
GP
These are the practices that make people dread going to a new car dealer. In what other business, do you pay unspecified overhead expenses that should properly come out of the gross after you agree to a deal?
I walk before paying junk fees. There are enough other dealers more deserving of my business.
So naturally people will be very anxious.And also realize that,if they make a mistake,like selecting the wrong car or a very unreliable car,then they would be stuck with it for a long time.Buying cars is an emotional and financial investment.So, a lot of factors have to be considered and when so much money is involved,it is natural to be indecisive,apprehensive and nervous.
Also,the customers buy once every 5 to 6 years,whereas the salespeople do car sales all the time ,,day in day out,,so naturally they will be less sensitive or emotional about it.
But,nothing personal here` isell `- my 2 best purchase experiences were with Honda dealers- one wherein I bought from them --but the best --- when I sold them my very low mileage Honda as I was not using it much.That simply was the best experience I ever had in a dealership and though personally I don`t like Honda cars- I recommend a lot of my friends and co-workers who are interested in a Honda to go to that dealership.
Back in 1984 I was trying to help my girlfriend(now wife of 23 years
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Now, the key words are gross profit. A new car sales department is a money loser for a dealer. Sometimes you guys act like the dealer pockets all the gross from a sale. What about building mortgage, property taxes, cost of parts inventory, special tools, admin people, furniture, computers, benefits, furniture, software, coffee for the waiting area, resurfacing the parking lot, and the list goes on and on. If all fees are a rip off, how come so many dealers were working on such a small net profit that they are now dropping like flies. But let's go on trying to make every dealer a non profit organization. Profit is not a dirty word.
Actually, because accounting apportions fixed costs by property area, sales never can make money for a dealership. Parts and service are the key to success.