Stories from the Sales Frontlines

sterlingdog · June 2009

I have been reading with interest your posts on the possible purchase of a new vehicle. While I have no opinion on either car, I'm sure that you will make the best decision for yourself. You are an intelligent consumer. I did want to mention one thing, however. I was happy to read that you are going to keep the Tahoe. It is such a nice automobile, and it would be a shame to sell it or trade it. Best wishes on your new purchase. Hopefully, it will be the choice that will make you happy.

Richard

driver100 · June 2009

Frankly, the money guy was more anal than I am about details,

Everybody is more anal than you about details. You haven't even told us anything about this alleged car you purchased. You haven't told us about the buying experience, the test drive, why you chose the car you did, or anything. You've been on here for 7 years, and you haven't told us squat!

Congratulations on your new purchase, now what's the scoop?

houdini1 · June 2009

Any time I have ever bought a car, the Dept of Motor Vehicles ALWAYS verifies the
Vin against what is shown on the paperwork when I get my tags. I have always wondered what would happen if they didn't match.

oldfarmer50 · June 2009

"...you havn't told us squat..."

I'm hoping that's because he bought the Cobalt SS which was rated one of the top fastest cars under $25K. I bet he's just busy racing the thing around to build up some cool "near death" stories.

Ain't that right imidazol97?

graphicguy · June 2009

imid.....if a dealer called me up, and said they made a mistake, and wanted to rectify it, regardless of who the mistake benefited. I understand that. Lord knows I've made my share.

Ask me to come in to discuss it. Offer some compensation for my time, and all is good.

In babe's case, this is a pretty significant mistake. If the dealer was informed of it, and then said "look, we messed up. Let's get you in the right vehicle, at the right price, and we'll throw in....oh.....I don't know....say a free extended warranty, maybe an oil change and tuneup gratis", or something of that ilk, then I'd say no harm, no foul.

That's not the case here. The dealer screwed up. The sales person, maybe F&I, maybe even the GM is trying to cover it up and throw the onus of responsibility on her. That doesn't fly. First thing, she's driving a vehicle, that for all intents and purposes can't be covered by her insurance. Further, while I hope this doesn't happen, let's say she's in an accident. You want to talk about a mess.....that would certainly be one....with results that could have devastating consequences.

That's the single reason I suggested taking the truck to the dealer and dropping off the keys. Heck, I'd even pull the temp tags off of it as they're registered to her. I wouldn't want my name associated with the vehicle at all, for the above reasons.

Now, if the dealership says that they have the exact truck she wanted, or ASKED her if she could live with the truck they gave her, and she agrees to keep it, then give her some considerations for their screw-up, redo the paper work, and call it a day. That's not what they're doing though. They're acting like it's no big deal. Well, it certainly is a big deal At the very least, the dealer should unwind it, return the deposit and consider it a lesson learned.

In all the times I've bought tags for any vehicle, not once did the BMV come out to the vehicle and verify that VINs matched the paperwork. But, once those temp tags expire, you can believe that if the OP says the VIN #s don't match on the registration, she isn't getting any tags.

Richard....thanks. In truth, there's not another vehicle I've ever owned (that includes some very nice vehicles) that I'd rather take on a long trip, or one that does so many things, so well, than the Tahoe. It's a great, comfortable (albeit thirsty) cruiser. It's been as well built, and reliable as anything I've ever owned. I've towed boats, Sea-Doos, trailers. I've hauled mulch, people (sometimes 6 at a time comfortably), lawnmowers, tech equipment, driven through storms that would halt a mountain mule, over long distances, with nary a hiccup. So, considering what I've used it for over it's time in my possession, it's never let me down. It's a pleasure to keep it, although I am looking at a fairly expensive set of tires for it in the near future.

As far as the rest of what I'm looking at, well it's really taking longer for me to decide than the way I normally do it. I know I can get a good deal on any of them. That's not the sticking point. I'm just flat undecided.

babecat · June 2009

We went to talk to our attorney on Saturday. He was at a loss. He thinks that the dealer can't give us our money back because we doesn't have it. He used it to keep is business afloat. He needs to get advice from his co-workers on monday to see what our next steps are. My husband has all of the print outs regarding the options that he wanted and was promised on the other truck. This truck does not have the same options.

We still have not heard from the bank. Our Attorney suggested that we call the A.Generals's office on monday to f/u on the compliant that we logged.

We were able to get our deposit back from the bank due to the stop payment. The dealer still has our check. We have not heard from the dealer either.

So I guess the waiting game will continue. :mad:

snakeweasel · June 2009

In babe's case, this is a pretty significant mistake.

I am not sure if it is that significant of a mistake. If she wanted a particular make, model, year, color, engine, interior and options and she got it then the mistake is very minor and can be corrected simply by correcting the paperwork and no one is out anything. So my big question is what is different between the two trucks other than the VIN?

First thing, she's driving a vehicle, that for all intents and purposes can't be covered by her insurance.

Actually it is covered by her insurance, I checked with an insurance underwriter.

They're acting like it's no big deal.

You have to remember that sometimes people do make a big deal out of something that is no big deal. Again what is the difference other than the VIN between the two trucks? If nothing have the dealership redo the paperwork and be done with it.

Now all this talk made me wonder and I checked our VIN against the paperwork, it didn't match. No wonder my 2008 Sebring convertible looks like this

snakeweasel · June 2009

This truck does not have the same options.

May I ask what options are different?

cdnpinhead · June 2009

You have certainly presented an interesting scenario, one that's provided hours of entertainment over the past days, but the question that at least one person on here asked remains:

How did the equipment/color on the vehicle you were delivered differ from the one you thought you were getting? How were you damaged? Why is this not buyer's remorse?

jmonroe · June 2009

We were able to get our deposit back from the bank due to the stop payment. The dealer still has our check.

If you got your deposit back, what check does the dealer have that you are concerned about? If it is your check that you gave him for the deposit, it's a worthless piece of paper now that the bank stopped payment on it. Why would you want it back? :confuse:

jmonroe

verdugo · June 2009

Here is my question, did she get the same truck?

That is the $100,000 question (or how ever much the truck costs).

Babecat didn't asnwer that, and it could make a difference.

oldfarmer50 · June 2009

"...No wonder my 2008 Sebring convertible looks like this..."

I see you got the premium paint, very nice.

graphicguy · June 2009

Then....the deal is done if there was a stop pay on the check (thought you said the dealership already cased it?). As jmonroe said, the check the dealer has is worthless. You MUST return the truck to them...NOW. End of story.

You don't even need an attorney for the rest of this. They gave you the wrong truck. You won't be able to secure permanent tags on it if the VIN doesn't match the paperwork submitted to your state BMV. You return it. You aren't out any money. Why do you want the dealer to return a worthless check? :confuse: The dealership's financial health isn't a factor.

However, I'm curious also about what equipment was different from what you thought you bought.

There's nothing to wait for.

If this is a case of buyer's remorse, I have an entirely different opinion of what's transpired. :confuse:

Is there something else here....something to this story that hasn't been divulged?

graphicguy · June 2009

Snake.....come to think of it you'd be right. Insurance companies cover the person.

I'm getting the feeling there's more here than we know, though. I agree that if the trucks are essentially the same, and it's a simple clerical error, change the paper work. No harm, no foul.

But, first the trucks has different options, but we don't know what those differences are. The check was cancelled, then was cashed, then was cancelled (again). Attorney says dealership in financial turmoil. Truck hasn't been returned to dealership.

If the dealership did make a simple VIN mistake, and resubmitted the paperwork correctly to the state BMV, financial institution carrying the note, then all the liability rests with babecat....tags, insurance, payments.

What is that car in the pic you posted? Looks like an older Fiat from the rear. The front, I don't know.

driver100 · June 2009

Now all this talk made me wonder and I checked our VIN against the paperwork, it didn't match. No wonder my 2008 Sebring convertible looks like this

Snake, you got taken....should have checked your VIN.

Also, you live in a town that speaks a strange language judging by that Scholl's sign.

dtezla · June 2009

After 8+ years of being in the business, I realize I have never seen any of my customers check the VIN # of the car they were buying.

On a side note, when I purchased my house - the paperwork was a breeze. Sat down... ate two cookies ... signed here here & here .... took keys & left. I guess I should have read the paperwork I was signing, but what the heck, it was our first house & our realtor was a friend of the family.

babecat · June 2009

The dealer still has the bank's check. we stopped payment on our down payment check.

No hidden agenda's.. We just want our money back to return our bank loan to zero.

The engine size is different, that's the major issue. The minor options we could live with.

babecat · June 2009

The only reason we even looked at the VIN was because my husband insisted that the truck wasn't what he ordered after driving it home. If the dealership had of said from the beginning that this was not the truck you ordered we could have worked with them at that point. However the did not come clean until we contacted them.

It would be really hard to switch a house that you have walked thru and know the address.

Ordering a truck to purchase is a little different.

Kirstie_H · June 2009

Babecat, I'm really sorry about your unfortunate experience, but thank you for taking time to come back here and report about what happened and what's going on. I've never seen anything quite like this, so it's going to be interesting to all of us to see how this is resolved.

dtezla · June 2009

OK - Now we know that the vehicle was drastically different from what the customer ordered. This seems like a serious no-brainer on the part of the dealer. They should really not even be fighting unwinding this deal.

How was the situation originally handled? Did the customer bring this to the attention of the dealer in a nice way? Asking if a mistake was made & how to rectify it? Or did the customer instantly assume that the dealership was pulling some type of trick & go in demanding a refund?

Also - I'm beginning to think this may have been a pre-owned car or Demo. If it was a straight new car & the dealership sold it out from under the customer, they probably would have done a dealer trade to get something that at least had the same engine.

lrguy44 · June 2009

I really am beginning to have doubts about the whole story. If the bank smells a "kink" in a deal, they will unwind it quickly. Many dishonest dealers have lost banks due to kinked deals. The double story on certain items also raised doubts. If the truck is truely a different truck, take the paperwork and the truck to the police. A fraud investigation could be initiated. If the bank is local, show them the actual truck and paperwork. In 16 years in the biz, I have heard of and seen many corrupt things, but never one like this.

lrguy44 · June 2009

In one of my past car jobs, my wife convinced me get a real job and take an offer from a bank to call on dealers for indirect lending. She really wanted me to have Saturdays off and home at 6 every night. Part of my duties was to be on the lookout for dishonesty. One day I walked into a dealer that we had done some business with. Most of the deals submitted were C and D paper. The finance director was off, but her assistant was there. He asked me to look at a deal and see what I could do to get an approval. In going thru the file I noticed 2 credit apps. They had the same info except for the income, which was $3000 more per month on one that appeared to be in the F&I directors handwriting, and the signature was in different handwriting. I made copies, turned them in and the next day I went back to revoke the dealer agreement.

joel0622 · June 2009

I am still trying to figure out what exactly is going on myself. I don't see what the big deal is for the dealer to swap trucks. They can't register the new one if the VIN is wrong on the paperwork, so if there is a lien on the truck and they can't register it that means they can't secure the lien.

joel0622 · June 2009

offer from a bank to call on dealers for indirect lending

I have thought about doing that. Why did you get out of it?

greanpea68 · June 2009

OK - Now we know that the vehicle was drastically different from what the customer ordered

I think drastic is a little to much at this point... all we know is that the vin number was different. I need to now if the MSRP was different.... if it was off by $100- $300 that may be some accesories not much to worry about. But if it was missing packages that were promised than that is a drastic change.

We know the colors must have been the same because that would have been said already... No disrespect but I believe this is a easy fix if it is the same vehicle... I

GP

lrguy44 · June 2009

Joel, at first the job was worth the pay cut. It was about a 5-6k monthly payday. But then it got more corporate with more controls than I had when I was in technical sales for many years. I hung in for 3 years, but In the space of 3 months the entire Colorado sales force plus the Managers all left. That was about 10 years ago. I do know the opportunities are less now because of banks getting out of indirect lending, mergers, etc.

lrguy44 · June 2009

And how did the lawyer know the dealer is in financial trouble?

boomchek · June 2009

So from what I understand was that the customer placed a factory order in a for a truck with specific equipment. The truck was built already but hasn't arrived at the dealership, as they obtained a VIN number that they took to the bank and got financing on it.

Upon the truck's arrival the customer took delivery but then found out later that this was not the truck they placed an order for.

What I would be curious to know was whether the pre order information/bill of sale had the original ordered truck's VIN, and whether there was a new bill of sale signed at time of delivery with the current truck's VIN (different than the factory order VIN).

So does all the paperwork have the original truck's VIN, or just initial pre order work sheet/bill of sale.

The reason I'm asking is because if the final bill of sale that you signed at time of delivery had the current truck's VIN then you will have a hard time unwinding the deal.

In this case the dealer pulled a switcheroo, and it was unethical and wrong, but you signed all the paperwork accepting the current truck.

But if the final bill of sale you signed at time of delivery had the original truck's VIN, which also happens to be different than that of the truck you're driving right now, then the dealer is in the wrong and needs to unwind the deal as you're driving an unregistered new truck that's not yours.

jmonroe · June 2009

It came in the mail today. A beautiful Hyundai Genesis license plate frame. This aint no cheapo thing, its heavily chromed. On the top it says, Genesis, on the bottom it says, 2009 North American Car of the Year.

I did what they asked; I put it on. The last sentence of the somewhat personal letter said, Think of it as an elegant way to send a knowing wink to the BMW driver behind you.

Hey graph, this may be what you were waiting for; a soft spoken perk to go with the quiet ride. Probably not as gaudy as those wings you mentioned.

Keep an eye out for this beauty.

jmonroe

snakeweasel · June 2009

I'm getting the feeling there's more here than we know, though.

I agree something is missing here. Hard to judge whats going on.

As for the car its a Yugo.

snakeweasel · June 2009

I really am beginning to have doubts about the whole story.

You're not the only one, I am to. The fact that getting specific details is like finding hens teeth makes me start to question this story.

imidazol97 · June 2009

>Think of it as an elegant way to send a knowing wink

I think that's great! What a way to advertise a success.

driver100 · June 2009

The last sentence of the somewhat personal letter said, Think of it as an elegant way to send a knowing wink to the BMW driver behind you.

Cute! But this bmw guy is too polite to say what the bmw guy is really thinking.

jmonroe · June 2009

...what the bmw guy is really thinking.

Yeah...DAMN, I've been had. :shades:

jmonroe

jb_turner · June 2009

They drove the truck 150 miles and realized it was the wrong make/model/year type of vehicle than what was ordered... or maybe it was that they drove the truck 150 miles and had second thoughts about the purchase.

sky23213 · June 2009

This is a picture of a Fiat 125 (Dino correct me if I'm wrong), made in Poland, hence known on the countries of the former Eastern Bloc as "polish Fiat". The picture is taken in the capital of Bulgaria - Sofia. The sign is in cyrillic letters, in this case in Bulgarian, and reads "Comfort and care for..."... I guess "the feet". And there is a sale going on too.

traindriver · June 2009

If the dealer sold you a vehicle, and you drove it home, then realized they made a mistake, and the car was worth $3000 more than you paid, would you take it back???
(by the way, all the paperwork was filled out correctly, proper VIN etc)

Part of me feels like if you knowingly take advantage of someone's honest mistake, the devil will scratch your eyes out and sooner or later you will get what is coming to you.

OTOH, in your example of the car, I also feel that automotive professionals that sell cars every day should know what they are selling and should have strong enough internal controls to not let a top of the line model get out the door for a base model price. Several sets of eyes have seen the paperwork and had ample opportunity to catch an "honest mistake." Even with all of the information out there regarding invoices, rebates, volume incentives, financing kickbacks, etc. how can the average buyer really know the bottom line figure is to the dealer? (....and that it is "worth" $3k more than you paid) I don't think you can make an accurate call in the example that you made up.

If I, as a fairly knowledgeable car buyer, knew from the beginning this deal was too good to be true then #1, I would wonder *why* is this car being sold so much cheaper than anyone else could sell it for, (which would probably scare me away from it) and #2, I would make sure by asking enough questions where they would catch their "mistake" to satisfy my conscience that the seller knew what he was doing before I drove away. If I overpay by $3k, will they likely unwind the deal after I go home and find that I paid too much? Doubtful.... Both parties had better know what they are doing before the ink hits the paper.

As for the BBQ lady, I say she had better sleep with one eye open because Lucifer will be paying her a visit. Maybe she didn't realize it at first, but it most certainly became clear later that she received something more than what she paid for. She was offered to split the difference 50/50 which apparently would still be a good deal for her and she chose to take advantage of what seems to be a clear case of an innocent mistake. I am thinking that it would be a lot easier to grab the wrong box off of a shelf than it would be to undersell a car by a significant amount with all of the documentation involved.

--- the "other" driver

verdugo · June 2009

The dealer still has the bank's check. we stopped payment on our down payment check.

The engine size is different, that's the major issue. The minor options we could live with.

Ahh, I understand what you mean by the checks now. You got you rmoney back, the other check is the bank's problem. :P

Engine size is different? Ugh. That would be a total dealbreaker for me -- specially whith a truck.

Best of luck, and please keep us updated.

tjc78 · June 2009

Keep an eye out for this beauty

I read about this on the "genesisowners" forum and I have had my Genesis for two months now and haven't received it yet.... maybe its only for V8 owners?

oldfarmer50 · June 2009

"...Genesis licence plate frame...heavily chromed..."

That's how it starts, a little chrome here,a little chrome there and before you know it you're running dub dubs with chrome spinners. Better be careful or the cops will be pulling you over thinking you're a pimp. :P

BTW, picked up the PT yesterday. Everything they say is true. Old technology and a bit underpowered but the Mrs and I don't need the latest and greatest, just reliable transportation. The PT fills the bill and tons of room for a small car.

One question, the PT has a 2.4L 4-cyl with 150hp that's been around forever. I noticed a Jeep in the showroom that had a 2.4L engine with 172hp and VVT. I didn't know Chrysler made a VVT engine. Could this be a Mitsubishi engine?

jmonroe · June 2009

I have had my Genesis for two months now and haven't received it yet.... maybe its only for V8 owners?

I bought my V8 in mid March and I just got my plate frame yesterday. I think you have to be a little more patient.

I would imagine it's for all Genesis owners; 4 door sedans and even the baby coupe version.

jmonroe

tjc78 · June 2009

I would imagine it's for all Genesis owners;

You are probably right. If they send it, I'll put it on my car, as I removed the dealer frames (cheap black plastic with white lettering... not on my car!)

graphicguy · June 2009

babecat....this shouldn't be difficult. Engine's different. VIN's different. There's all sorts of scenarios this brings to mind. At best, the factory made a mistake on your order. But, engine sizes/differences can indeed make the VIN numbers different.

In the worst case, the dealer actually sold the truck you ordered to someone else, and tried to give you another, similar truck (with a different engine), and change the VIN # after the fact to the lending institution.

You have your deposit back by putting a "stop pay" on your deposit check. The loan doesn't matter at this point because the paper work you signed has the wrong VIN, thus the wrong vehicle that the paper was written for. Let the dealership communicate with the finance place to sort this out. You shouldn't be liable for the finance note. So, there's no money that you're currently out of pocket for. For all intents and purposes, you've been made whole.

However, I'm assuming you're still driving around in the wrong truck. Technically, it's not your truck. It belongs to the dealership and/or the lending institution. You absolutely need to take the truck back to the dealership and give them the keys, NOW! Let the dealership unwind the paperwork with the lending institution. The paperwork is bogus since it has your signature, and the VIN on the original paperwork. Any new paperwork that was submitted after the fact to the lending institution will not have your signature. No signature.....no loan.

What VIN did you report to your insurance company? The VIN on the truck you're driving, or the VIN of the truck you ordered?

By now, you should have had time to talk to the lending institution to tell them what happened. What have they said to you?

Either I'm missing something, or you're fretting too much. Based on what you've posted, this should be a no brainer. A loan was granted on the wrong truck, therefore negating the deal, and the loan. Anything else that happens should be between the loan originator and the dealer.

Again, if those are the correct details, no loan, no signature on a loan that includes correct information, substantially different truck from what you agreed to pay for, with a different VIN, you are driving a truck that still belongs to the dealership. And, you won't be able to get permanent tags for it. Just return it and walk away. You're out nothing.

jmonroe · June 2009

Better be careful or the cops will be pulling you over thinking you're a pimp.

I better be very careful driving in PA in general. I just got an email yesterday cautioning the recipients that the state has a campaign going on to raise 9 million dollars. One million of it going to pay the troopers overtime for this crack down. Its known as Operation Yellow Jacket and lots of roads are targeted. They even have Penn Dot trucks involved in pulling over speeders.

I think they heard about the V8 Genesis owners using the PA roadways as test tracks to verify the published specs. :sick:

jmonroe

graphicguy · June 2009

oldfarmer.....I haven't kept up with the evolution of the PT. But, I think Chrysler and Mitsu haven't really shared anything for a few years. The good news is, the people I've known who've had a PT for awhile say they're very reliable. Kind of like Crown Vics or Grand Marquis. They've been made for so long, in the same way, with little in the way of changes, they've got all the kinks out of them.

I do remember that PTs came with a turbo, but other than that, little in the way of changes to the basic 2.4L.

The Jeep 2.4L may very well be an evolution of the same motor. Probably more expensive to make, too....with the VVT. Trying to keep the price of the PT low, maybe Chryco decided no VVT for PT.

tjc78 · June 2009

Its known as Operation Yellow Jacket and lots of roads are targeted.

That is an email hoax. I get them sent to me in NJ around every holiday weekend. Its called a "NJ State Trooper speeding ticket frenzy". It lists all the major highways and talks about 100 new unmarked Crown Vics and a portion of the proceeds will pay overtime. Its been circulating for years!

dtezla · June 2009

We now know the engine & equipment was different from what was originally ordered by the customer. This is an excellent leg to stand on for a case of returning the car.

Now we need to know if the VIN number is different from the VIN number provided at the time you ORDERED THE CAR (or a few days after in some cases) - Or if the VIN number is different from the one used on the paperwork when you PICKED UP THE CAR.

If the VIN is only different from the paperword you received from ordering the car, but the paperwork signed when picking up the vehicle shows the VIN of the truck you actually picked up - then I can see where the dealership has a reason to not back out of the deal. If this is the case, it could be argued (by the dealer) that this is buyers remorse.

Like others, I feel we're not getting the whole story here. Something isn't adding up.

lrguy44 · June 2009

If the vehicle was ordered, no VIN will be assigned until the truck is built. The dealer may not (I am not sure how Dodge works) until it is invoiced. We will see the last 8 on a off road report when the vehicle hits the water, and full VIN when invoiced.

verdugo · June 2009

The dealer may not (I am not sure how Dodge works) until it is invoiced.

I did a factory Jeep order. No VIN number when ordered was placed of course. My dealer sent me a VIN # as soon as it came off the assembly line.

I didn't check the VIN # when I picked it up

lrguy44 · June 2009

I was wrong, we actually see the VIN on the off road report

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