Stories from the Sales Frontlines

graphicguy

I've special ordered before. The VIN is assigned right after the factory completes the build on the vehicle, but before it's shipped to the dealer.

I'm still not getting this. Stop payment on the check for the deposit was successful. All other monies on the loan are invalid since, according to what we know, babecat's truck isn't the same truck she signed for on the loan, with a different VIN.

Babecat's not out any monies. The check issued to the dealer on the loan and truck is based on a different VIN, a different truck. There is no deal...either with the lending institution, the dealership, or with babecat at that point.

There is NO deal since all the information is bogus on the paperwork.

Return the truck. Walk away. What happens between the dealership and the lending institution isn't babecat's concern. It is that simple.

Who cares whether the dealership has a check from the lending institution. That's between those two entities.

Long and short of it, the dealership didn't deliver the truck as stipulated, since the VIN is different. Without taking delivery of the correct truck, the deal is invalid, across the board.

Technically, I guess the dealership could say that babecat is driving a stolen truck, since it's not the same one she agreed on in the paperwork. That's why she should return it, post haste!

dtezla

"...Babecat's not out any monies. The check issued to the dealer on the loan and truck is based on a different VIN, a different truck. There is no deal...either with the lending institution, the dealership, or with babecat at that point. ...:

We don't know that the VIN is different from the paperwork she signed when picking up the truck. All she said is that the VIN was different from the paperwork she had seen weeks before.

lrguy44

If the bank thinks the loan is valid they still may report her as late pay and ultimately repo. I wonder how they saw the VIN as there is no VIN when they order the truck. They should have left a deposit at that time, so the check would have been long cashed. Was it an order or a dealer trade?

dino001

It is Fiat 126, aka "small Polish Fiat" (as opposet to "large Polish Fiat, which was 125). It was a licence from Italy bought in early 70s by the Communist regime.

The original version had rear-monted air-cooled 600cc 2-cylinder engine (inline). The upgraded version developed in mid-70s was 650cc and the car was manufactured virtually unchanged until some 1992, I think. Late in the 30-year "product cycle" (what a dream for GM or UAW wouldn't it be to have a product with such a long cycle ) it was upgraded to 700cc engine - real zoom-zoom.

The car's favorite features:
1. mechanical pull starter (i.e. you turn keys, then pull a lever in the center console). Later replaced with ignition key starter motor.
2. Maximum speed between 65 and 70 mph.
3. 0-60 unlisted, 0-45 somewhere in 20 second area.
4. Official capacity: 5 persons (sic). How they defined a person was really hard to gather.

graphicguy

lr....the lending institution may think the loan is valid. A simple phone call to them, requesting the paper work they received should clear up the issue whether the contract paper is valid, though.

If the VIN # on the paperwork, with babecat's sig, matches the VIN# on the truck she took possession of, then it's a valid loan agreement. If not, then there is no deal and no loan. Should be as simple as that.

Just thinking, when babecat placed the order for the truck, she should have received some sort of paperwork stipulating what it is she ordered (VIN comes later), so she could compare that to what it was she actually received. Moreover, a quick glance at the MSRP sticker would have shown the difference between what she ordered, and what she received.

While most won't check VIN #s on delivery, at least for me, I know I check the MSRP sticker to make sure everything that's supposed to be there, is indeed there.

I didn't get the impression this was a dealer trade. But, if that was the case, the VIN # would have been immediately available to secure financing.

boomchek

When I was a kid I remember seeing small Fiats (maluchy) on Poland's highways regularly stuffed with 5 people and a ton of luggage on the roof, and sometimes pulling a small camping trailer!

It seemed like the smaller the car the more junk people stuffed in it.

Ahh the memories.

graphicguy

dino....what you described sounds an awful lot like this (only this one is brand new)....

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/automobiles/autoreviews/28NANO.html?_r=1&scp=2- &sq=tata&st=cse

boomchek

Oldfarmer. The new engines found in the Jeeps are part of a family of engines built with Hyundai and Mitsubishi. They're called World Engines and they come in three sized 1.8L, 2.0L, and 2.4L. They're fairly sophisitcated with variable valve timing and what not.

However they differ from your 2.4L engine as yours is an older motor that was designed for Neons few years before this World Engine alliance.

More info here on allpar.com

dino001

Yes, with the difference Nano will probably be quiter and more powerful (3-cylinder engine), better designed and cheaper. "The tiny" (loose translation of "maluch") had actually two prices: official list price (about 1 year salary), rationed by special government coupons and "free market", which was something like 2-4 annual salaries. In Dollars, it was still peanust, as people were making something like $30-50/month (prices were also lower, you would buy a dinner feast at $2 then).

It's really hard to translate realities of "centrally planned" (read communist) economy to people who never experienced them. But that car was an essence what the whole thing was about. We even had a joke about an English, German and Pole having an car accident. It goes something like that: German curses at his Mecedes "three years of hard work - well insurance will pick it up", English is kicks his Vauxhall "I just lost my downpayment", and the looks Pole at his "Tiny" and cries "My whole life savings gone". The German and English turn on him: "Next time don't buy so expensive car"

oldfarmer50

"...engines built with Hyundai and Mitsubishi..."

I knew I detected a little Mitsu in there. Too bad Chrysler didn't upgrade the PT with that engine.

boomchek

The probably didn't bother because they might have had to modify the engine bay and mounting points I think. So it's easier just to keep putting the old motor in there until the PT gets discontinued.

lrguy44

More importantly, cheaper

boomchek

That too.

explorerx4

there used to be a turbo version of the PT for those who wanted something faster than average.
best to let her get what she really wants.
about 2 months ago, my wife bought an 09 escape. it is better than the '04 we have in just about avery way, however it was about 3rd on her list.
the ford edge we were looking at was about 6k more than the escape and the lincoln mkx was about another 6k beyond that. i was happy we didn't spend the extra money.
she said to me the other day she wished the edge wasn't so much more expensive. so i sense a little trouble in paradise.
the only thing the edge had that the escape doesn't is a power rear hatch.

snakeweasel

I noticed a Jeep in the showroom that had a 2.4L engine with 172hp and VVT. I didn't know Chrysler made a VVT engine. Could this be a Mitsubishi engine?

My Sebring has the 172 HP VVT 2.4L engine. According to the sticker it was made in the US (but doesn't mention the manufacturer).

explorerx4

back in 2000, i bought an expedition. a few months later, i got a couple of canvas folding chairs with a carry bag sent to me.
i took it as a sign i overpaid.
9 years later we still have them and use them whenever we go to the beach or a crew event, so they were definitely worth the money.

jmonroe

That is an email hoax. I get them sent to me in NJ around every holiday weekend. Its called a "NJ State Trooper speeding ticket frenzy".

This may be a “hoax” in NJ but here in PA it is a fact. No sooner than the people that received the warning email I received, an email was sent to the same email recipients from a guy that I know pretty well who confirmed the warning email. He said on Saturday on I-79 South in PA he saw no less than 8 troopers in a six mile stretch. He said 4 had people pulled over and 1 was in pursuit.

On the way home today on the PA Turnpike (I-76) heading west, about 3 miles from the exit I take, there were 4 troopers at a truck pull off spot and they had 6 cars pulled over. As I went by in the right lane, right in front of this pull off spot, a guy sped past me and the first thing I did was look in my rear view mirror to see if one of the troopers saw him, at first I didn’t see anything then I saw a cloud of dust as the trooper pulled out. About a half mile down the road the trooper had this guy and 2 others pulled over. About six months ago I saw a trooper pull over 2 cars and a semi at the same time. I don’t know how they do that but from what I’ve heard, it’s almost a common occurrence on the PA pike. We have a retired Ohio police guy that frequents this thread when something tickles his fancy, maybe he can explain how they do that. :confuse:

So, I now know first hand, it’s no hoax in PA, not this time.

jmonroe

jmonroe

she said to me the other day she wished the edge wasn't so much more expensive. so i sense a little trouble in paradise.

That’s why you gotta let them buy what THEY want. Why else do you think I have a V8 Genny in my garage, right now, as we speak?

And about those beach chairs that are 9 years old, I’m sure the metal work on those things have some rust on them. Whereas, that chromed beauty that Hyundai gave me will probably out live their famous warranty.

BTW, what's the story with your computer.

jmonroe

snakeweasel

It seems to me that every time I go through PA the last 50-75 miles before the state line there are at least 5 troopers looking for speeders,

explorerx4

j mon,
i guess i never learn, but she was the one who had the final say.
i supposed it does not make a difference.
my old folding chairs are still good, powder coated frames.
the old desk top computer is pretty much toast.
next week, we will try to salvage the important stuff off the hard drive.
my wife already copied a bunch of the files she wanted before it went off the deep end.
she neglected to ask me if there were any files i wanted. :mad:

graphicguy

Sorry about that link. You have to register to get to the entire article. Here's another...

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/WorldsCheapestCarArrivesTom- orrow.aspx

Essentially, that Nano car (which they do plan on bringing to the US) is a bare bones car. In India, it costs the equivalent of about $2,500. No A/C. No power steering (according to the article, the car is so light it doesn't need power steering). No power brakes (all drums). No radio. Gets 50 MPG. Also has all the correct pollution controls due to the bad air in INDIA, and would pass emissions requirements here.

Tester said it handled well due to its light weight.

Now, I can only surmise what it might cost in U.S. trim, which is supposed to add power windows and locks. Add in safety gear and "stuff" we're used to, who knows what it might cost.

Still, it's supposed to come in at 1/2 the cost of the cheapest new car on the market in the U.S (Hyundai Accent). Let's say, $5,000?

50 MPG, $5,000.....I'd say there's probably a market vs something like a Smart Car, which drives badly, takes premium fuel, "only" gets about 35 MPG and costs $12K and up.

explorerx4

once all the safety equipment is added, the Nano is not going to get 50 mpg.
lucky to get 35 with a top speed of 60 mph?

boomchek

But I have to wait a few weeks to post them till things cool off. 3 customers this week with unreasonable expectations. It must be the heat getting to them.

tjc78

So, I now know first hand, it’s no hoax in PA, not this time

Then I stand corrected! I just assumed it was a similar email to the one we get in NJ. As for how the troopers do it, I believe one officer "clocks" and then radios to the other cops... burgundy Genesis @ 82... white chevy @ 90 etc.

imidazol97

>Sooooo, would it kill yew to give us some details?

Details.

Have looked off and on for an economy but good car to add to our two 3800 Buicks. Looked Friday at a local lot with several Cobalts and Malibus. Decided Saturday to pick the last black 2LT and see if they would meet my price. I hoped being near end of the month would mean they would want to move a car even more price wise to my advantage. But first wanted to test drive to see if Cobalt would do after being used to Buicks. It was much better than I expected in feel and comfort. Kid loved the car.

Loads of options. Gets great gas mileage already. Was bought for kid to use for school and functions that starts soon this summer.

Salesperson was pleasant about test drive. I asked if a licensed, insured 17-year old could drive it and the salesman respond that he could not give him permission to drive...hint, hint, and that he would not be coming along on the test drive. Took it a few miles home when I loved the way it drove and how quiet it was. The little lady test drove; son was afraid to drive after the salesman said they didn't want him to do so.

We all three went back for the expected grind. The salesman's expression improved when he saw the wife was along; that had to be a sign we would be interested. The only hangup was the $250 doc fee which the dealers tries to bundle with title cost and temp plate cost. I negotiated bottom line only so they can add whatever fees they wish, but I didn't know the cost for title and temp plate alone; I knew it wasn't $250 and more which is what the salesman stated. I also corrected the salesman that it is a max $250 and not required and might not even apply to cash purchase because the Ohio Revised Code talks about installment contracts as the reason for the documentation fee in the excerpts I had read.

It was probably the least stressful of last several cars I purchased. I think it's because if I didn't get this one, there are lots of used ones out there with low mileage and certified. But the salesperson was extremely professional and his body language was always nonthreatening. I watched to see if he tried to use the idea that my wife and son were sitting there to apply pressure. I hoped the kid would learn about negotiating and discussing by being there. I had already warned him about having a lustful look about the car to give the salesman the impression that he "really wanted that car and that car only."

The salesman seemed really relieved when I settled on the last go round. He was very subtle but clear about any problems or concerns being called to his attention and give good scores on an evaluation we would receive about the purchase. I told him I understood that only the top rating on every category was needed.

The parents will understand the rest of the story. Thursay evening when I once again dragged the kid over to the various lots in the suburban town, he liked the various cars I pointed out among Nissan, Ford, Chev lots. He has had no real interest in any particular car type or brand. And he has learned that I seldom buy anything without research and dragging it out. He was telling me how it will be 6 months from now and he won't have a third car for us three drivers. He was dumbstruck on Saturday that I was negotiating, and that we actually ended up with a third car for him for school and for me for moderate length trips where we don't need the larger leSabre. The dumbstruck look was a MasterCard "priceless" in my book. And he loves the car.

sky23213

Yes, you are correct. I knew it, I wasn't sure which was which. And surely don't remember the details.

roadburner

When I was working full-time the Kentucky version of this racket was known as Federal Overtime(FOT). Cops on FOT have to make four "contacts" per hour- but don't call it a quota...
You tax dollars at work.

oldfarmer50

"...I got a couple of canvas folding chairs..."

I managed to get free once a week hand wash-car washes for life and a full tank of gas. I had to fight the F&I guy for the gas though.

oldfarmer50

"...he saw no less than 8 troopers in a six mile stretch..."

If you don't like that kind of police presence stay out of NY. On our interstates if your car breaks down you can walk back home on the roofs of speed trap cop cars and your feet will never touch the ground. It's general practice here to generate revenue from the motoring public, no special occasion, no warnings.

That's how we fund the freak show that is going on in Albany right now.

kyfdx

The out-the-door price relieves a lot of stress while negotiating..

The thing that kills me about the $250 doc fee that most Ohio dealers charge? Most of them don't include any of the government fees in that number.... They will still hit you for registration, title and plate fees totaling another $80...

While I'm on my $250 doc fee rant... The one thing that makes me cringe, is when they tell you that the state mandates the fee, and they have to charge it. The state of Ohio CAPS the fee at $250.. I guess if you tell that lie enough, it just rolls off the tongue with no guilt... I bet I've heard it a dozen times, at least.. :P

jmonroe

As for how the troopers do it, I believe one officer "clocks" and then radios to the other cops... burgundy Genesis 82... white chevy 90 etc.

I can understand it when you have 2 troopers working together. But what I’m talking about is 1 trooper that chases down several vehicles at the same time. I guess as he goes by each one he motions to that driver to pull over then continues on to the next and so forth. Then after he pulls over the last vehicle (3 the time I saw this) he waves to cars 1 and 2 to move up so he doesn’t have so far to walk back to each one.

Wouldn’t it be interesting if while he’s writing up the last car he pulled over, the first car takes off. If the exit was close enough and around a bend, I’d bet my Genny could get away with this.

jmonroe

jmonroe

Details.

Now that’s more like it. I can’t imagine your son not enjoying a “new” car. I never did that for my sons.

Congrats to all the drivers and the buyer.

jmonroe

snakeweasel

Four "contacts" per hour? First I have to ask what is a "contact"? If it is actually pulling someone over I would think that 4 an hour is a lot. Thats one every 1 minutes. So lets see, pulling someone over, checking them out and maybe writing a ticket then getting back into position is going to take some time (most of the 15 minutes?), then waiting for the next person that you can pull over. On rural Interstates I really don't see that happening.

graphicguy

While I'm on my $250 doc fee rant... The one thing that makes me cringe, is when they tell you that the state mandates the fee, and they have to charge it. The state of Ohio CAPS the fee at $250.. I guess if you tell that lie enough, it just rolls off the tongue with no guilt... I bet I've heard it a dozen times, at least..

kyfdx.....I hear you as the $250 doc fee as being REQUIRED by the state. PSHAW! I've even told one dealer I wanted to see the statute or law requiring the $250 doc fee. Of course, he couldn't produce it.

I understand that there are costs involved in doing the paperwork.....$40-$50 max, for roughly 15-20 minutes of work seems reasonable.

As you say, the way to counter act it is to make OTD offers. The way I do mine is to include everything, including TTL in my offers. Even then, I've had the F&I office tell me that they still must add the $250 doc fee. It's only after I kindly pointed out that I already figured the doc fee in my figure, and that any additional fees were "deal breakers" that they came around (usually with some conferring with the sales person, the SM, and a bit of fussing with me).

I've even heard the last ditch, "everybody must pay the $250 doc fee". Oh, really? I guess this deal kind of breaks that string.

lrguy44

What they may do on the paperwork is lower the price of the car $250 and keep the doc fee. There have been more doc fee rants here than I have experienced in 16 years in the business. This is truly a special group.

oldfarmer50

"...There have been more doc fee rants here..."

That's because most knowledgeable buyers know that it is a sneaky way to boost profit. You don't think those dealers in Florida would be selling for "Below Invoice" if they didn't have that $599 doc fee, do you?

NY has a $45 cap on doc so the price you pay here is about $500 higher than states with a $500 doc fee.

If I were a sales person I would hate the doc fee more than the customer does since, if I remember correctly, it takes away from your commission.

lrguy44

I guess I never have had more than 3-5 knowledgeable buyers in 16 years. From a sales standpoint, it is accepted as a way of doing business. Of course, we do not have $800 doc fees here. I remember a few years ago I was buying a TL for my wife. The dealers knew I was in the biz and 2 of them quickly met my offer. We went to the second only because they had the color my wife wanted, and at this deal the car had to be an in stock unit. When I asked about the Doc Fee, the second dealer said $549. I said "WHAT?" The sales person, who was totally aware I was in the business, said. "Oh, that includes Etch." My wife did not get the color of her choice.

tjc78

the second dealer said $549. I said "WHAT?" The sales person, who was totally aware I was in the business, said. "Oh, that includes Etch."

IMO that was just disrespectful of the other salesperson... did he think you wouldn't catch it?

exb0

Wouldn’t it be interesting if while he’s writing up the last car he pulled over, the first car takes off.

Well it happened to me twice.

The first time it was on NY 390 interstate. I was passing a car that was doing 75 on the right. The cop made a U turn on the median, when I saw him I slowed down. The cop passed me and went after the other guy. While I was trying to get around them, the cop blocked my way and motioned to me to pull over.

Ten years later, on a 35 m/h road in a school zone, a guy in front of me takes off at the light, and I follow him. A cop chases us down and gets behind me with lights on. I slowed down looking for a place to pull over. The cop goes around me, and gets behind the other guy. That guy just slams on the brakes and stops in the middle of the road and so did the cop. I just went around them. I was watching them in the rear view mirror while the other guy pulls over to the side of the road, and the cop was still in the middle of the road watching me, but he didn’t chase me.

dtezla

When I negotiated (as a salesperson), I lumped all the fees into one category on my deal spreadsheet (it was seperated on the actual buyers order, but I warned the customer of this in advance). Ultimately it didn't matter if the fee was state/federal mandate or additional dealer profit. "I" was required to charge it by the managers. I rarely had anyone complain. Most of the "fees" in PA were legitimate such as a $5 tire tax on new cars, Registration Fees, & the inevitable "Doc Fee". I believe our Doc Fee was $55. All in all though, I just told the customers how simple it was: Selling price + Tax (Usually 6%) + $155 for registration/title/doc fee. This was the most our fee would have been & often ended up being less if they transfered the tag, paid cash or bought used.

dtezla

Perhaps this particular dealership puts etch on all their cars as part of their prep process. I worked at a dealership that did this because they were in a high theft area & it helped reduce problems. Etch was then charged to the customers at a price that was much less than it had been at other dealerships that tried to sell it at the time of sale. I'm sure there was still profit in the etch, but it couldn't have been much. When customers would question the fee, I often would call their insurance company & ask if they offered the discount for etch - Most offered something along the lines of $10 per month off - which over the course of a year would have paid for the etch anyway.

lrguy44

Long ago and far away in another kingdom I sold etch. We would etch every car and just charge those that bought it. The penetration rate was about 73%.

jipster

Though you did not follow all the guidelines and principles that I suggested in my best selling book, "The Jipst Method of Buying a New Car"... I congratulate you and the Mrs. on yo new car and a job well done.

roadburner

Four "contacts" per hour? First I have to ask what is a "contact"? If it is actually pulling someone over I would think that 4 an hour is a lot.

Contact= 1 violation. This means that cops will write up stuff that they used to just give warnings about, such as a burned out license lamp or tail light. It's all a complete waste of time, money, and resources, but when has that ever bothered the Federal or state government?

driver100

And he loves the car.

Thanks for finally sharing your "Car buying Experience". Congratulations and best wishes on the new purchase....sounds like a good purchase for a student, economical and not too fast.

You did well in getting the car you wanted at a reasonable price, since you were well armed with back up information before going in.

Also, your story was nicely written, Richard would be proud.

You must really be pro Detroit 3 or maybe just GM - just curious as to why you had no interest in testing a Civic, Corolla, Nissan, VW, or Hyundai, etc? I am just thinking that I would have compared a few cars in that category.

Related subject....we rented the Taurus last week while on vacation. Our friends rented the cheapest Focus you could find. It was a two door...you would have to be an acrobat in Circus Soleil to get into the back seat and what I found really amazing, was there was no remote opener....and the little pin in the door is so small you can't grab it from inside. So, they had to go and open the passenger door with the key every time they went out. Does this seem normal? Is this really the 21st century? That's why I would try out a few competing models...at least one before making a decision.

jmonroe

There have been more doc fee rants here than I have experienced in 16 years in the business. This is truly a special group.

And it’s because we’re so “special” that we don’t like the doc fee.

I paid the Ohio doc fee of $250 (that’s the true doc fee. The $275.50 I was charged included a legit fee that is paid to the State) when I bought the Genny in March but not before I had a little fun with the salesman before I caved (see post 40431).

If there was ever pure profit for a dealer it was on that purchase because he performed no service for me what so ever because I live in PA. When I got back to PA I had to do the work of forms for the paying of taxes, title transfer, plate thingy, etc. Now you may ask why I paid it, well, eh, because he had a price for his car that I couldn’t beat in PA even with a lower doc fee in PA ($120 up from $55. Remember that thread? ) and, this is what my son meant when he said on the drive over to Ohio, “let’s not screw this up over a couple hundred bucks, OK”. :mad:

Maybe I’m all talk, maybe.

jmonroe

lrguy44

I read in the Detroit News Auto Insider today that Chrysler has given the PT a reprieve in spite of lagging sales. The rationalization is that there will be little or no marketing, the tooling is paid off so the car is very profitable, and it fills a void until the Fiat products appear in 2012. Do not expect any refinements or enhancements however. Oh yes, and it is produced in Mexico with much lower overhead.

tjc78

So, they had to go and open the passenger door with the key every time they went out. Does this seem normal?

Why couldn't they just use the handle inside. Even if my door is locked when I pull the inside handle it unlocks and opens.

tjc78

Perhaps this particular dealership puts etch on all their cars as part of their prep process

Isn't the actual etch only one part of it? I seem to remember that buying it actually registers it with some sort of service. Without the tracking service wouldn't it be worthless?

oldfarmer50

"...you did not follow..."The Jipst Method"....I congratulate you..."

I'm sorry I didn't follow the Jipst method but I forgot to pack a lunch that day.

I do appreciate your congrats. I may have left $1K on the table but I'm happy with the car (more importantly, so is the boss).

Do you realize that the vast majority of members on this board have purchased domestics? There's 3 Chryslers, one Chevy and then somebody (can't remember who) bought some cheap "throw-away" brand. :P