Is the Highlander 2wd V6 that much different than a Senna mini-van? Apparently not. Same engine. Same Carry platform. Base price falls in between the base price of Senna DE and EL. Now, if we could only seed deals on the Highlander as we do on the Senna (i.. $400-500 over invoice), we'd really be in business. Wishful thinking!
Honda version of MDX may be a year off in the distance if not more. Other new Honda (Model I - see today NY Times Auto Section, cover page) could be 2 years away. New Saturn cute Ute looks very promising (about 4" longer than CRV) but that's a year wait as well. And of course the question is whether the new CRV will have the Accord's 4 cylinder (we know they won't put a six in there). Decisions, decisions!
Ifan, I'm looking for the same model of Highlander. Where in MD did you spot the vehicle. I'll be in MD this week-end.
Sure an RX300 costs the same as an MDX. All the more reason to get an MDX! Feature for feature, value for value the MDX outshines the RX300. Until the RX decreases in price to well below an MDX I'm afraid I wouldn't even consider an RX.
As has been pointed out before, the base MDX MSRPs at $34850 (and you will pay MSRP for awhile!) which is very comporable to what a loaded Highlander will MSRP at. At first I suspect there will be very little dealing on Highlanders so I would consider the MDX a much better buy (unless there are reasons to avoid it, re: #199 dichelle). However I also believe that Toyota will start negotiating price long before Acura does, so those who can wait will see Highlander "deals" before they see MDX "deals".
At $35K loaded for Highlander and no expected discounts from MSRP at first, it seems that it would make sense to wait to see Honda's offering, if there really is going to be one.
I would expect ARV (Accord Rec Vehicle??) to slot somewhere under $30,000 for an EX (ala pricing strategy for Ody). By that time, MDX's may be selling for under MSRP and Honda would not want the OTD price of a Honda to be that close to the Acura.
Will there be an ARV? Probably. After all the new plant is supposedly coming on line this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see the new plant cranking out nothing but Odysseys and shifts now building Ody in Canada will convert over to ARV.
will not be even possible for 2 years. Honda doesn't have the plant capacity to build the cars.
The Alabama plant which will come on line late this year will be building Odyssey. And there has not even been the slightest rumor of a Honda SUV along the line of the Highlander.
Even if there is more plant capacity opening up, they will try to build more MDX than a cheaper Honda version, since the more expensive MDX is obviously more profitable.
Honda has never been very good at managment of it's auto assets, and in history has always lagged behind the market trend by about two years (sometimes more). Notice, the Odyssey supply situation is still not remedied after more than 2 years, and now they don't have the resource to build the MDX they need.
The problem with Honda is that while they can improve upon a successful Toyota design (like Odyssey improved upon the successful Sienna, and MDX improved on the RX300), they can't understand the heart of Toyota's success -- a business strategy that responds efficiently and instantly to the market. The result is that Honda is always behind Toyota in term of growth rate and resource.
So don't hold your breath for the Honda SUV. Honda is squeezing it's production as it is, and since there is no Honda SUV in development, it will be 2 years at least.
Now that we know a loaded AWD V6 Highlander w/leather & side airbag will cost about as much as a Acura base MDX, is there any point to the debate? You are talking about a luxury brand SUV with more power, room, seats, and a longer warranty with luxury dealer class customer care (did I leave out anything?) vs. a Toyota (not Lexus).
Regardless if you take the MT 2001 SUV award as bought or not, (have you read the article?) they DID test the rest of the SUVs including the Sequoia and it did win on test results.
MDX also won the North American International Auto Show (big daddy of the AutoShows in Detroit) as SUV of 2001.
BTW, glad there is a middle storage/armrest option for the Highlander. That "pass thru" setup looked like a joke.
Now the MDX is the same length as my Camry so length wise it's quite easy to handle. It has a much smaller turning circle than RX300 and probably Highlander. However, it's true that it's wide. It still fits in my garage with the Camry. (Note: need to be a little more careful but it fits.) And I will always fear for the side door dings but that's the price for the room inside.
Question: If it cost the same for 7 passenger option then 5 passenger and the seats can fold down and be gone (magically), which would you choose? You may not need it but wouldn't be nice to know you have the option?
Granted, a Highlander with less options would be cheaper.
Bottomline for me, if the Highlander didn't look so dog ugly in front and didn't take so long to get to the market, my wife might have forced me to buy it (a Toyota loyalist and she didn't require 7 passenger seating). But by chance I took her to the MDX grand opening and the rest was history.
Very well thought out response. Although I disagree with you on many points I offer the following:
"Honda doesn't have the plant capacity to build the cars." That's why they are building Alabama.
"there has not even been the slightest rumor of a Honda SUV along the line of the Highlander" Honda has always been very secretive about new models. MDX platform is available and could be re skinned for Honda. But try this http://www.europeanhonda.demon.nl/hondanews9.htm
"Even if there is more plant capacity opening up, they will try to build more MDX than a cheaper Honda version, since the more expensive MDX is obviously more profitable". The MDX is probably more profitable, but can it generate the volume the a Honda version could? I'd rather sell 100,000 at $3k profit than 25,000 @ $5K profit. I don't know what the exact sales and profits are, but Honda is the mass market brand. Profits are lower, but can add up to more in long run.
"Notice, the Odyssey supply situation is still not remedied after more than 2 years" When Honda started to design the new Ody (about 5 yr ago), the the mini van market was and still is a 0 growth business. To get sales, they would have to take away from someone else. Honda was conservative in its estimates to take that business and the Ody was the biggest vehicle they ever made. They traded lightly. Now that they see what the have in the Ody, they are making investment in new plant. As for the MDX, I think Honda's conservatism is the reason for the slow ramp up of MDX. Canada is running 120,000 units Ody (based on 2 shifts) and I would presume capacity of 60,000 MDX per year (I'm extrapolating here). My understanding is that the capacity does not exist in Canada to expand production, hence Alabama. Could Acura possibly sell 180,000 MDX's per year if entire plant were available?? I doubt it. That's why I feel that Honda could get a version of the MDX. Maybe not this year, but for 2003...
"Toyota's. success ... business strategy that responds efficiently and instantly to the market" Yes they do. Based on my experiences, nobody can beat them at manufacturing. Nothing wrong with that or being a follower. Let other companies blaze the trail, prove available market, and then come in with your product.
Getting this on topic - I just think that $35K sticker for the Toyota is too high. The MDX with touring and NAV has a sticker of $39,450 and base model (comparable to Highlander Ltd) is just under $35K. Based on other postings, RX can be had at those prices as well. I'm sure the Highlander will do well, just not the $35K ones.
Lastly, I don't want this to turn into a big argument. What I really, really want is to see Honda build their version of the MDX. It makes the market more interesting and could make the Highlander less expensive.
You guys are probably right about Honda SUV being 2 years away. But I believe the newly designed 4Runner is due this fall? Does anybody have any information on the new 4Runner? (I assume more powerful engine as Pathfinder increased theirs).
Since the price of Highlander appears to be lot higher than RAV-4Runner in between slot, 4Runner might be a better buy? Thanks.
I guess one most likely will always get a better deal if he/she is willing to wait. But the question is how long.
I have seen Honda dealer asking $2000-5000 over MSRP for their mini van, will Acura dealer do the same thing for MDX?
I was hoping to see 2WD V6 Highlander with few options and priced around $27000-28000. Otherwise, there are not really any major advantage to get a Highlander considering it is Toyota, rather than Lexus or Acura. From recent posts here, it seems I will have to *wait* too.
Hope Toyota is listening what people want from this message board.
I bought on the odyssey case to show a difference between Honda and Toyota, and how quickly they respond to the sudden market change/demand.
Like the previous generation, the Toyota Previa was not selling well, only few thousand a year. When the Sienna was introduced, the sales rocketed to over 100,000 a year. Toyota instantly cranked up the production. Honda should have seen this. Odyssey was an improvement on the Sienna concept of car bases minivan, and came a year after the Sienna success. But Honda was caught off guard, and was not nearly as able to respond to the market, and 2 years later, production is still short.
Another example of quick Toyota response is the Tundra truck. Huge hit. Demand rockets. Toyota shelled out $800 milllion right away and increased the North American production by 300,000 in 1999. (As a reference, the Alabama plant, has a maximum production capability of only 120,000).
"I'd rather sell 100,000 at $3k profit than 25,000 @ $5K profit. I don't know what the exact sales and profits are, but Honda is the mass market brand. Profits are lower, but can add up to more in long run." I agree that's correct. But that's based on the assumption is that you can building 100,000 of them. The truth is Honda simply don't have the capacity to do that. So if you were only able to build 40,000 MDX or the cheaper Honda a year, you will logically go for the more profitable Acura model.
Alabama plant, by Honda's own offical release. Won't be open for business until towards end of the year. And they also said the full capacity of 120,000 a year won't be possible until sometime in 2003. Also, they stated it will product Odyssey first. So it will produce 2002 Odyssey, so Honda version of the MDX will be 2003 at the earliest.
This largely concur with my guess it will be 2 years at least before Honda has it's own MDX.
So Toyota as 2 years lead with the Highlander, just as the RX300 has been out 2 years ahead. By then Toyota would probably have made off with much of the money and a large chunk of the market. I agree that there is nothing wrong with letting others do the trail blazing (you save alot in development cost and can improve upon an already successful product), but you must also be prepared to settle for a less chunk of the pie.
Also note. I agree that a fully loaded Highlander is quite expensive, and defeats the purpose once you have everything but the kitchen sink installed on it. At the same price as a base MDX, I would take the MDX myself. But you can't trim down a MDX to save some money, you can with Highalander. The more sensible one would be something like:
4WD V6: $26,975 appearance package: 890 side airbage: 250 VSC: 850 keyless: 320 power seat: 390
Total = $29675.
Fairly good amount of convience, alloy wheels and safety features for less than $30K (more than $4000 less than the MDX). Now that makes more sense. I think leather is just plain a waste, uncomfortable in the winter and summer.
I think once the market reaches a equalibrium, where supply meet up with the demand (with Toyota, it shouldn't be too long, 4-5 months is my guess), you can get a Highlander for maybe $1000 or $2000 under MSRP ($27K for the Highlander I configured). Then it will look like a pretty good deal for a tuned down RX300.
Toyota can and does respond quicker because they are a bigger company than Honda and have more resources available for new plants, etc. As for new products, I will admit that at first I thought Toyota made a mistake with the new RAV - it seemed they bench marked against the current CR. The new ARV seems to pale in comparison the Triscape in terms of value. But now that I see what the Highlander offers, it seems they are microsegmenting the market which Honda should do CR, ARV, MDX.
Alabama plant - I found this press release: http://www.honda2001.com/news/press.html?y=2000&r=342 noting Honda pulling production start in to end of 2001. But in reviewing my thinking, MY2003 would probably be the earliest Honda could start producing the ARV with current capacity - unless they wanted to dump that Civic thing they make :-). I really believe that eventually Alabama will mfr nothing but Odys and Canada SUV's, but where will they make the pickup truck Honda will be sticking those Isuzu diesels I've heard about?
As for trailblazing, the Ody proves that a better design can take a few bites out of the leader's leg. Crossovers are going to be the next big thing and there will be plenty of market to go around.
The V6 AWD setup you noted seems pretty good. My only changes would be no VSC (I'd rather control that) and add leather. I have it now and don't want to give it up.
Now for a real Highlander comment - what is with that shift lever????? It looks like something from a 1980's Alfa Spider.
I will be looking at one when they arrive here in the Northeast. I won't be buying one, but my wife will still let me look.
One word of complaint with Toyota marketing. I signed up for updates on their website about 4 weeks ago. Have not gotten one piece of mail or e-mail about the Highlander.
Our District Rep came by two days ago with a Highlander. I must admit that I am baffled by those who think the styling isn't there. I really liked this thing. I loved the back seat leg and hip room. Cargo space was pretty good. I liked the driver's position and can even live with the shifter where it is. I was not so keen on the location of the arm rest. I'd get used to it, but it seems a bit high. Other than that, I loved it.
Now, here's what I really loved. I closed the door. I can't begin to describe just how heavy and solid that act felt like. I'm used to how Toyota doors feel and have always though our Japanese built cars felt a little more solid but this Highlander is in a different class. It screams precision and stability. Wait until you guys can lay your hands on this. You'll see what I mean.
Overall, I was very impressed. Pricing falls right into line with our other vehicles. The totally decked out 4x4 V6 is at $35000 which is exactly where our Avalon is. Granted, the Avalon has memory settings on the seats and is a bit more refined, but it doesn't have a 4WD system. Our fully loaded Sienna is about $33000 and again has no 4WD system. I suspect we will have no problems moving these off our lots in short order.
Toyota Announces Pricing for All-new Highlander Mid-size Sport Utility Vehicle
Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., released manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP) today for its all-new 2001 model year Highlander mid-size sport utility vehicle (SUV).
Highlander will join 4Runner to give Toyota a diverse, dual-entry in the mid-size SUV segment. Equally significant, Highlander will join RAV4, giving Toyota two unibody-based SUV offerings.
When it goes on sale Jan. 15, the MSRP for Highlander will range from $23,515 for a 4x2 model with a 4-cylinder engine to $26,495 for the top of the line 4x4 model with a V6 engine.
Agreed. Yes, the alabama plant will come on like towards the end of this year. It's first product will be the 2002 Odyssey. I have no idea just how much more Odyssey is needed before the demand curve crosses the supply curve. But I'm sure it will not take the entire capacity of the plant (120,000).
I heard of the accelerated completion of the plant. That was a while back. The full capacity of the plant will not be reached until sometime in 2003. That's why I say Honda's MDX will be 2003 at the earliest.
I think Honda will need more than one plant if it hopes to expand much more. I assume the reason why Honda didn't do what Toyota did (spend $800 million to raise the production by 300,000) is because its plants in existance are already stretched to their limit. That's why they had to build a new plant. But 120,000 cars are not really alot for any company that comes out with good products. Notice Toyota minivan sales jumped by 100,000 over 3 years. New Tundra production require another 100,000+ a year. RX300 needs another 80,000+ a year. All of these product came out in the last 2 years. Add them together and you see why Toyota spented production by 300,000 least year alone. 120,000 will be inadequite if Honda hopes to make another hot mass product. They will need another plant.
The shifter. It's quite interesting. I first saw a shift in such location in a Honda actually. Appearantly, the shifters are often placed on the dash in Japan. Last year, I saw a Japanese Honda Avancier station wagon, it had a automatic located exactly at that postion. Check this out.
Pretty interesting huh. I guess it does allow people to go back and forth without the shifter blocking the way. I think it's just that most of us in the U.S are not use to it.
I'm not really interested in a Highlander. I'm more interested in the redesigned 2002 Camry. Which I heard will share the same engine and platform with the Highlander. Beside, my family from my old man down has been mostly loyal Toyota fan, it's interesting to catch up on the news. We are planning a family in a year or two, and my wife is graduating soon, so we are going to be trading up for a larger car. She is really into the Lexus IS300, but I think it's taking too much away from the baby's funding (beside, it's not very fitting for a family car. She is just trying to compete with her peers who recently got one), so I'm trying to get her to settle for a more affordable car.
Maybe they will release the e-mail once the car goes on sale. Who knows.
Any of you who are interested in a Highlander or a Sequoia, you can look in the latest issue of Car and Driver. I glimpsed through them yesterday, seems like they both recieved very positive words. I just glimps through, so can't remember much at all, but looks good so far.
Lexus IS300 looks like alot of fun, but I think you are right. Not very practical family car.
We are Honda people (on my second Accord and just got an Ody and my Dad got an Accord recently) - it's funny how I would barely consider a Toyota and a friend is on his third Camry (in 5 years) and is considering a Sienna.
The Camry is a great car and does it job well just like the Accord. Not an exciting car, but bulletproof.
Make that me too, or three or four!! I signed up to receive Highlander updates as well. So far nothing.
Has everyone read James Healey's (USA Today) Test Drive of the Highlander? It was not as favorable as I had hoped. Indeed his reviews were poor enough (in areas of performance) in my opinion to cause me to hesitate. Guess I'll have to check it out myself; due to hit our dealers Monday.
Healey did however report that a top-of-the-line V6 AWD Limited w/ all options would MSRP at $30865, including destination according to Toyota! If true this is cheaper than we've been speculating.
Where did all this hysteria about a $35k top end come from? The USA Today article states MSRP's of... 4 FWD 23,515 4 AWD 24,915 6 FWD 25,095 6 AWD 26,495 (i.e. base 23,515, AWD is 1,400, 6 is 1,580) 6 AWD Limited w/ all options 30,865.
And yes there will be a "Honda MDX", my best guess in spring 2002 as a 2003 model. Depends on how quickly Alabama comes up.
This will not be a "RX300 killer", while many of the under-lying systems will be similar, there are things you just can't get with a HL no matter how much you load it up.
No LCD systems display. No Naviagtion system. No memory for the driver's seat (a must have for me and my wife) No anti-pinch safety for the power windows or moonroof. Differently tuned suspension. No high capacity gas tank. No high intensity discharge lamps with auto-leveling. No electro-chromic mirrors. No heated seats (a must have in the North w/leather). No 4-year warranty,7-year power-train, Lexus quality, service, road-asistance and loaner cars.
There might be other things I'm missing. Now I have no regrets picking up my RX300 with Nav next week.
Thanks for the correction. I went according to the info available at Edmunds and the Toyota Canada site. Toyota USA really should post the info there NOW.
Also, to other folks out there, there is a great discussion in the Pathfinder forum about U.S. folks purchasing a car in Canada. THe advantages are:
1) Canadain dealers are prevented from selling higher than MSRP. 2) The Canadain versions of PFs and Highlanders come better equipped at the same trim level. 3) Because of the exchange rate, you will save an easy $3000 - $4000 dollars once the process is complete. 4) The Highlander is already selling in Canada (I believe).
If you are within the border by about 500 miles on either the east or west coast, the process is easy and has been documented by other Town Hall members. You bascially do all your paperwork over the phone or fax, wire money to a local bank, fly in, pick up bank check, goto dealer, drive home. Minor paperwork at the border. About 1 days worth of work to save $$$ thousands of dollars. Plus. many folks turn these little trips into vacations and stay in B & Bs as they drive home or tour around.
Can anyone provide the link for the discussion regarding buying in Canada?
BTW, questions regarding that: 1. Will there be any import tax at the border? 2. So all the unit used on the unit will be Kilometers rather than Miles?
Jon Lofquist is the gentleman who has documented the entire process in DETAIL. He encourages folks to email him. He is a super nice guy.
To answer some quick questions: 1) You will be charged a Canadanian tax, but that will be refunded to you through the mail. 2) You will have to pay a duty fee (I forget the %) but even after the fee, you will still save lotsa money. 3) Yes the speedo will more than likely be Kilo/miles, as oppose to Miles/kilos as in the U.S. You need to find a qualified dealer in your area that can swap the speedo out if that bothers you. Estimated cost is about $300 - 400, YMMV.
Let me give you a stern warning about buying Canadian cars. First is the warranty issue. By having a vehicle with a VIN for a Canadian vehicle, it will not be in the US system. This is correctable but a US dealership must do it and do it correctly.
The other issue is the odometer. You must get it converted to miles from kilometers. This can be done but requires replacing the entire head unit on the speedometer. Should you ever sell the vehicle, there is a legal question as to whether you can state the miles are true and correct. Technically, it is a TMU or "true mileage unknown". You could probably get away with stating the miles are true but you open yourself up to possible litigation. The question is NOT settled.
If you don't plan on ever selling it and you have confidence in the dealership putting the VIN into the system, it can be a good deal. Other than that, don't mess with it.
I just don't get it. You all are talking Highlanders at $35000, and that is a small percentage of these rigs. The MSRPs on mine, for the most part, are $25000 to $29000. I have a few REALLY loaded cars for $32000, but mine are 2WDs and very nicely equipped! The scant few 4WDs I have are 30,200..and one is $33400. I am blessed with quite a few of the 4WDs in the V6 as well, so it's the one I'd be selling at a discount of the MSRP out of the gate. The 2WDs shall remain at window til the market shakes down and reveals itself. Toyota plans big things for this vehicle. I suspect that there will be plenty of dealers marking these up beyond the MSRP! Not me, but others surely will start asking for more. My point actually is that the average MSRPs for well-equipped cars are $25000 to $29000, and that's right in the range of the 4Runner for a more car-like ride, comfort, and newer technology. And, way under RX300 pricing.
Most of ours are 4x4s. This reflects the demand in the Washington DC market. They are coming in between $27K to $29K for the 4 banger and $32K to $35K for the V6. Most will be in the $32K range. We are selling at MSRP but no more until we see what the market will bear. If the demand for the vehicle doesn't justify MSRP, we'll drop it. We will not be marking them up.
I have read the article. It really discourages me to buy a Highlander. According to the review, it sounds to me that the 4x4 system in Highlander is just a piece of junk. Here is the address to the article:
Don't let the article sour you on the 4WD system. The sounds and hesitations he was feeling tells me he had one with VSC. VSC means that power will be sent to a non-slipping wheel without resorting to limited slip differentials. LSDs are weak and need a lot of maintenance. They last 60K to 100K before needing a rebuild.
If you get one without VSC, you will still have very good traction but not quite what you would with VSC. On the plus side, no hesitations or clicking noises.
So, are you saying that having VSC is a bad thing on the highlander? This is a $850 option that I assume was an advance safety upgrade.
VSC is standard on the BMW X5 and Lexus RX300. Then again, the Acura MDX don't have it and according to the James Healey article, the MDX handles ice and snow pretty good.
I tend to agree with the writer since I just bought a MDX. And to think that I wished my MDX had VSC. What was I thinking?
Anyway, can't wait for the Highlander to hit the showroom floor. I WILL test drive one. I love to test drive. I won't buy one, for obvious reasons.
Just checked my local Toyota dealer's web site and they list having about 6 Highlanders (all V6 4x4) in (although none were visible when I when to visit). The least expensive one is $29800 with the highest being right at $34K. This is in NC. here's what they show on the $29800 one as options:
Convenience package: Keyless entry Tonneau cover Roof rack system 50 state emissions Southeast toyota distributor 8-Way power drivers seat Privacy glass on back window rear door and quarter glass Carpet mats and trunk mat Towing prep package maximum 3500 lbs Full tank of gas - no charge Prewire for alarm 4-Enkei bgat 16" alloy wheels (replaces 4 factory installed wheels listed) Toyo guard protection group
is this about what they are going to go for or have they jacked up the price a bit?
Now that I've seen further pics, I'm glad I'm getting an RX300. The HL is just too bland in styling for my taste, plus as I pointed out before, lacking in some amenities that I find desirable.
But if Toyota dealers hold the price down, this car will surely be a hit and force the American Big 3 to design more safety systems into their SUVs. I can't believe we were ready to buy a loaded Jeep GC Limited because we could get a killer price on it... that is until I checked all the crash test data on it. Plus the fact you can't even get side-airbags. What a mistake.
If the HL frame is similar to the RX, then it should do very well on the crash tests.
If you want a fully loaded Highlander, you can can get a better value with the RX-300(see post #229 above). The Highlander does include some of the items- heated seats and same size gas tank, but some of the other features on the Lexus are really usable in day to day operation- memory seats, electrochromatic inside/outside mirrors, water resistant front glass, longerbasic and powertrain warranty are not available.
I priced a Highlander today at Toyota's. web site. East coast fully loaded- $35480.00. It still does not have all RX-300 equipment. We own 2000 and 2001 RX-300's. The price continues to drop on the RX-300. I would expect 36500-38500.00 for a ism- ilarly equipped RX-300 today. Lexus has to deal. I doubt Toyota will on a new vehicle and even worse may tack on dealer "extras". Lexus can't.
I'm picking up a top-of-the-line fully loaded RX300 with Navigation system this Saturday for $38,500. I actually could have got it for $38,300.
You could easily get a AWD model with the Premium Plus package for close to $36,000. The better wararanty, loaner cars, and other services is easily worth $1000.
After some of the initial new-model hysteria dies down, you'll start finding discounts on the Highlander. That'll make it a better deal, and give buyers a real value choice and a decision between a Highlander and an RX or MDX.
At least there are real differences between the Highlander and RX, and reasons to buy one vs. the other (especially after the Highlander's price drops). Unlike the Pathfinder/QX4 similarities that have hurt QX4 sales.
The Sequoia went for MSRP when it was first introduced but now there are reports of $2k-$3k off MSRP.
I think the QX4 and PF similarities are a joke. Don't get me wrong, I currently drive a '97 PF, I think they are one of the best made vehicles around. But there is NOT enough difference between a 2001 PF LE loaded and a QX4 to warrant a $3000 to $4000 difference.
Just doesn't make sense and I constantly find QX4 owners "rationalizing" their decision.
Agree with you on the HighLander, if Toyota and the dealers don't screw things up, they've got a sure hit on their hands.
It's an amazing year to buy SUVs, there are so many good vehicles out there now. Take the MDX, I think it's a great value, but actually too wide for my driveway! I would have been happy with either the MDX or RX.
No, I'm not saying VSC is a bad thing. It is a decidedly good thing but it will click and hesitate on ice. What it will do is give you much better control in panic maneuvers and should reduce the likelihood of rollovers. The only down side is that on sheet ice, you may engage the traction control. This causes the brakes to engage and the engine may kick over to a rev limiting mode. This will enable you to creep forward but not to speed across the ice. I think this is a good thing but others may disagree.
And that's why I like VSC on the RX. I wanted to make sure that if my wife and son ran into an unusual incident on the highway that she would at least have a fighting chance of avoiding it if she pulled an emergency manuever.
I think the fact that the RX (and the HL?) have a center differential, and thus true AWD, that the torque being spread amongst all four wheels should give it a good chance of driving on sheet ice type conditions. Plus, there is the "snow" setting on the transmission which starts it off in 2nd gear from a standing stop. Helps prevent wheel spin.
I checked the new information at the Toyota site and there is no mention of a rear defogger. Does anyone know for sure if there is one?
Also, their price calculation mechanism needs work. If you choose the Limited option, it adds $595 twice for the 6-disc option in the running total. Then at the end when summarizing, it doesn't include the $595 at all in the window sticker pricing total.
And another question - what does Sundown Red Pearl really look like? The Canadian brochure as well as the little picture at Toyota's website look like a real red. The picture at the Weick site as well as the one in Motor Trend almost look like the poor selling Autumn Mica that used to be on the Solara.
I promise you, it has a rear window defogger. Not only have I seen it, Toyota does not make anything except the pickup trucks without them. In fact, the Limited I saw had one in the right rear window. I thought it was the diversity antennae at first but it isn't. It covers the whole thing. I don't know if that was standard or part of the Limited package.
Has anyone test driven or even sat in one of these vehicles? I wouls like to know what kind of footroom it has.
I am 6' tall and one of the biggest gripes I have with the current midsize SUV market is that there is insufficient room for my left foot. The best of the bunch I have found for this problem so far is the Pathfinder, which is still somewhat uncomfortable for me.
So, if any relatively tall people out there have checked out the Highlander please let me know what you feel about the footspace. Thanks.
Saw a Highlander Limited today at the KC Sports Show. It was Sundown Red Pearl. Was hardly red at all. Was more like burgundy, brown metallic. Kind of rich looking. Don't know about the Autumn Mica color. Looked pretty good to me.
Comments
Honda version of MDX may be a year off in the distance if not more. Other new Honda (Model I - see today NY Times Auto Section, cover page) could be 2 years away. New Saturn cute Ute looks very promising (about 4" longer than CRV) but that's a year wait as well. And of course the question is whether the new CRV will have the Accord's 4 cylinder (we know they won't put a six in there). Decisions, decisions!
Ifan, I'm looking for the same model of Highlander. Where in MD did you spot the vehicle. I'll be in MD this week-end.
I would expect ARV (Accord Rec Vehicle??) to slot somewhere under $30,000 for an EX (ala pricing strategy for Ody). By that time, MDX's may be selling for under MSRP and Honda would not want the OTD price of a Honda to be that close to the Acura.
Will there be an ARV? Probably. After all the new plant is supposedly coming on line this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see the new plant cranking out nothing but Odysseys and shifts now building Ody in Canada will convert over to ARV.
Just my thoughts.
The Alabama plant which will come on line late this year will be building Odyssey. And there has not even been the slightest rumor of a Honda SUV along the line of the Highlander.
Even if there is more plant capacity opening up, they will try to build more MDX than a cheaper Honda version, since the more expensive MDX is obviously more profitable.
Honda has never been very good at managment of it's auto assets, and in history has always lagged behind the market trend by about two years (sometimes more). Notice, the Odyssey supply situation is still not remedied after more than 2 years, and now they don't have the resource to build the MDX they need.
The problem with Honda is that while they can improve upon a successful Toyota design (like Odyssey improved upon the successful Sienna, and MDX improved on the RX300), they can't understand the heart of Toyota's success -- a business strategy that responds efficiently and instantly to the market. The result is that Honda is always behind Toyota in term of growth rate and resource.
So don't hold your breath for the Honda SUV. Honda is squeezing it's production as it is, and since there is no Honda SUV in development, it will be 2 years at least.
Now that we know a loaded AWD V6 Highlander w/leather & side airbag will cost about as much as a Acura base MDX, is there any point to the debate? You are talking about a luxury brand SUV with more power, room, seats, and a longer warranty with luxury dealer class customer care (did I leave out anything?) vs. a Toyota (not Lexus).
Regardless if you take the MT 2001 SUV award as bought or not, (have you read the article?) they DID test the rest of the SUVs including the Sequoia and it did win on test results.
MDX also won the North American International Auto Show (big daddy of the AutoShows in Detroit) as SUV of 2001.
BTW, glad there is a middle storage/armrest option for the Highlander. That "pass thru" setup looked like a joke.
Now the MDX is the same length as my Camry so length wise it's quite easy to handle. It has a much smaller turning circle than RX300 and probably Highlander. However, it's true that it's wide. It still fits in my garage with the Camry. (Note: need to be a little more careful but it fits.) And I will always fear for the side door dings but that's the price for the room inside.
Question: If it cost the same for 7 passenger option then 5 passenger and the seats can fold down and be gone (magically), which would you choose? You may not need it but wouldn't be nice to know you have the option?
Granted, a Highlander with less options would be cheaper.
Bottomline for me, if the Highlander didn't look so dog ugly in front and didn't take so long to get to the market, my wife might have forced me to buy it (a Toyota loyalist and she didn't require 7 passenger seating). But by chance I took her to the MDX grand opening and the rest was history.
"Honda doesn't have the plant capacity to build the cars." That's why they are building Alabama.
"there has not even been the slightest rumor of a Honda SUV along the line of the Highlander" Honda has always been very secretive about new models. MDX platform is available and could be re skinned for Honda. But try this
http://www.europeanhonda.demon.nl/hondanews9.htm
"Even if there is more plant capacity opening up, they will try to build more MDX than a cheaper Honda version, since the more expensive MDX is obviously more profitable". The MDX is probably more profitable, but can it generate the volume the a Honda version could? I'd rather sell 100,000 at $3k profit than 25,000 @ $5K profit. I don't know what the exact sales and profits are, but Honda is the mass market brand. Profits are lower, but can add up to more in long run.
"Notice, the Odyssey supply situation is still not remedied after more than 2 years" When Honda started to design the new Ody (about 5 yr ago), the the mini van market was and still is a 0 growth business. To get sales, they would have to take away from someone else. Honda was conservative in its estimates to take that business and the Ody was the biggest vehicle they ever made. They traded lightly. Now that they see what the have in the Ody, they are making investment in new plant. As for the MDX, I think Honda's conservatism is the reason for the slow ramp up of MDX. Canada is running 120,000 units Ody (based on 2 shifts) and I would presume capacity of 60,000 MDX per year (I'm extrapolating here). My understanding is that the capacity does not exist in Canada to expand production, hence Alabama. Could Acura possibly sell 180,000 MDX's per year if entire plant were available?? I doubt it. That's why I feel that Honda could get a version of the MDX. Maybe not this year, but for 2003...
"Toyota's. success ... business strategy that responds efficiently and instantly to the market" Yes they do. Based on my experiences, nobody can beat them at manufacturing. Nothing wrong with that or being a follower. Let other companies blaze the trail, prove available market, and then come in with your product.
Getting this on topic - I just think that $35K sticker for the Toyota is too high. The MDX with touring and NAV has a sticker of $39,450 and base model (comparable to Highlander Ltd) is just under $35K. Based on other postings, RX can be had at those prices as well. I'm sure the Highlander will do well, just not the $35K ones.
Lastly, I don't want this to turn into a big argument. What I really, really want is to see Honda build their version of the MDX. It makes the market more interesting and could make the Highlander less expensive.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/columns/healey/0044.htm
Article states that in the snow, it's not so great.
However, the engineers mentioned the RX will eventually be placed on the Highlander's platform.
Interesting.
Since the price of Highlander appears to be lot higher than RAV-4Runner in between slot, 4Runner might be a better buy? Thanks.
I have seen Honda dealer asking $2000-5000 over MSRP for their mini van, will Acura dealer do the same thing for MDX?
I was hoping to see 2WD V6 Highlander with few options and priced around $27000-28000. Otherwise, there are not really any major advantage to get a Highlander considering it is Toyota, rather than Lexus or Acura. From recent posts here, it seems I will have to *wait* too.
Hope Toyota is listening what people want from this message board.
Good post. And here are my 2 cents.
I bought on the odyssey case to show a difference between Honda and Toyota, and how quickly they respond to the sudden market change/demand.
Like the previous generation, the Toyota Previa was not selling well, only few thousand a year. When the Sienna was introduced, the sales rocketed to over 100,000 a year. Toyota instantly cranked up the production. Honda should have seen this. Odyssey was an improvement on the Sienna concept of car bases minivan, and came a year after the Sienna success. But Honda was caught off guard, and was not nearly as able to respond to the market, and 2 years later, production is still short.
Another example of quick Toyota response is the Tundra truck. Huge hit. Demand rockets. Toyota shelled out $800 milllion right away and increased the North American production by 300,000 in 1999. (As a reference, the Alabama plant, has a maximum production capability of only 120,000).
"I'd rather sell 100,000 at $3k profit than 25,000 @ $5K profit. I don't know what the exact sales and profits are, but Honda is the mass market brand. Profits are lower, but can add up to more in long run." I agree that's correct. But that's based on the assumption is that you can building 100,000 of them. The truth is Honda simply don't have the capacity to do that. So if you were only able to build 40,000 MDX or the cheaper Honda a year, you will logically go for the more profitable Acura model.
Alabama plant, by Honda's own offical release. Won't be open for business until towards end of the year. And they also said the full capacity of 120,000 a year won't be possible until sometime in 2003. Also, they stated it will product Odyssey first. So it will produce 2002 Odyssey, so Honda version of the MDX will be 2003 at the earliest.
This largely concur with my guess it will be 2 years at least before Honda has it's own MDX.
So Toyota as 2 years lead with the Highlander, just as the RX300 has been out 2 years ahead. By then Toyota would probably have made off with much of the money and a large chunk of the market. I agree that there is nothing wrong with letting others do the trail blazing (you save alot in development cost and can improve upon an already successful product), but you must also be prepared to settle for a less chunk of the pie.
Also note. I agree that a fully loaded Highlander is quite expensive, and defeats the purpose once you have everything but the kitchen sink installed on it. At the same price as a base MDX, I would take the MDX myself. But you can't trim down a MDX to save some money, you can with Highalander. The more sensible one would be something like:
4WD V6: $26,975
appearance package: 890
side airbage: 250
VSC: 850
keyless: 320
power seat: 390
Total = $29675.
Fairly good amount of convience, alloy wheels and safety features for less than $30K (more than $4000 less than the MDX). Now that makes more sense. I think leather is just plain a waste, uncomfortable in the winter and summer.
I think once the market reaches a equalibrium, where supply meet up with the demand (with Toyota, it shouldn't be too long, 4-5 months is my guess), you can get a Highlander for maybe $1000 or $2000 under MSRP ($27K for the Highlander I configured). Then it will look like a pretty good deal for a tuned down RX300.
Toyota can and does respond quicker because they are a bigger company than Honda and have more resources available for new plants, etc. As for new products, I will admit that at first I thought Toyota made a mistake with the new RAV - it seemed they bench marked against the current CR. The new ARV seems to pale in comparison the Triscape in terms of value. But now that I see what the Highlander offers, it seems they are microsegmenting the market which Honda should do CR, ARV, MDX.
Alabama plant - I found this press release: http://www.honda2001.com/news/press.html?y=2000&r=342 noting Honda pulling production start in to end of 2001. But in reviewing my thinking, MY2003 would probably be the earliest Honda could start producing the ARV with current capacity - unless they wanted to dump that Civic thing they make :-). I really believe that eventually Alabama will mfr nothing but Odys and Canada SUV's, but where will they make the pickup truck Honda will be sticking those Isuzu diesels I've heard about?
As for trailblazing, the Ody proves that a better design can take a few bites out of the leader's leg. Crossovers are going to be the next big thing and there will be plenty of market to go around.
The V6 AWD setup you noted seems pretty good. My only changes would be no VSC (I'd rather control that) and add leather. I have it now and don't want to give it up.
Now for a real Highlander comment - what is with that shift lever????? It looks like something from a 1980's Alfa Spider.
I will be looking at one when they arrive here in the Northeast. I won't be buying one, but my wife will still let me look.
One word of complaint with Toyota marketing. I signed up for updates on their website about 4 weeks ago. Have not gotten one piece of mail or e-mail about the Highlander.
Are you in the market for one?
Now, here's what I really loved. I closed the door. I can't begin to describe just how heavy and solid that act felt like. I'm used to how Toyota doors feel and have always though our Japanese built cars felt a little more solid but this Highlander is in a different class. It screams precision and stability. Wait until you guys can lay your hands on this. You'll see what I mean.
Overall, I was very impressed. Pricing falls right into line with our other vehicles. The totally decked out 4x4 V6 is at $35000 which is exactly where our Avalon is. Granted, the Avalon has memory settings on the seats and is a bit more refined, but it doesn't have a 4WD system. Our fully loaded Sienna is about $33000 and again has no 4WD system. I suspect we will have no problems moving these off our lots in short order.
Toyota Announces Pricing for All-new Highlander Mid-size Sport Utility Vehicle
Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., released manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP) today for its all-new 2001 model year Highlander mid-size sport utility vehicle (SUV).
Highlander will join 4Runner to give Toyota a diverse, dual-entry in the mid-size SUV segment. Equally significant, Highlander will join RAV4, giving Toyota two unibody-based SUV offerings.
When it goes on sale Jan. 15, the MSRP for Highlander will range from $23,515 for a 4x2 model with a 4-cylinder engine to $26,495 for the top of the line 4x4 model with a V6 engine.
I heard of the accelerated completion of the plant. That was a while back. The full capacity of the plant will not be reached until sometime in 2003. That's why I say Honda's MDX will be 2003 at the earliest.
I think Honda will need more than one plant if it hopes to expand much more. I assume the reason why Honda didn't do what Toyota did (spend $800 million to raise the production by 300,000) is because its plants in existance are already stretched to their limit. That's why they had to build a new plant. But 120,000 cars are not really alot for any company that comes out with good products. Notice Toyota minivan sales jumped by 100,000 over 3 years. New Tundra production require another 100,000+ a year. RX300 needs another 80,000+ a year. All of these product came out in the last 2 years. Add them together and you see why Toyota spented production by 300,000 least year alone. 120,000 will be inadequite if Honda hopes to make another hot mass product. They will need another plant.
The shifter. It's quite interesting. I first saw a shift in such location in a Honda actually. Appearantly, the shifters are often placed on the dash in Japan. Last year, I saw a Japanese Honda Avancier station wagon, it had a automatic located exactly at that postion. Check this out.
http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-lineup/avancier/photo_lib/image/photo4.jpg
Pretty interesting huh.
I'm not really interested in a Highlander. I'm more interested in the redesigned 2002 Camry. Which I heard will share the same engine and platform with the Highlander. Beside, my family from my old man down has been mostly loyal Toyota fan, it's interesting to catch up on the news. We are planning a family in a year or two, and my wife is graduating soon, so we are going to be trading up for a larger car. She is really into the Lexus IS300, but I think it's taking too much away from the baby's funding (beside, it's not very fitting for a family car. She is just trying to compete with her peers who recently got one), so I'm trying to get her to settle for a more affordable car.
Any of you who are interested in a Highlander or a Sequoia, you can look in the latest issue of Car and Driver. I glimpsed through them yesterday, seems like they both recieved very positive words. I just glimps through, so can't remember much at all, but looks good so far.
We are Honda people (on my second Accord and just got an Ody and my Dad got an Accord recently) - it's funny how I would barely consider a Toyota and a friend is on his third Camry (in 5 years) and is considering a Sienna.
The Camry is a great car and does it job well just like the Accord. Not an exciting car, but bulletproof.
Thanks for the banter and best of luck.
Has everyone read James Healey's (USA Today) Test Drive of the Highlander? It was not as favorable as I had hoped. Indeed his reviews were poor enough (in areas of performance) in my opinion to cause me to hesitate. Guess I'll have to check it out myself; due to hit our dealers Monday.
Healey did however report that a top-of-the-line V6 AWD Limited w/ all options would MSRP at $30865, including destination according to Toyota! If true this is cheaper than we've been speculating.
Actually, it said "all required options". That's 26495 + 480(dest) + 3495(limited) + 395 (option DJ) = 30865.
4 FWD 23,515
4 AWD 24,915
6 FWD 25,095
6 AWD 26,495
(i.e. base 23,515, AWD is 1,400, 6 is 1,580)
6 AWD Limited w/ all options 30,865.
And yes there will be a "Honda MDX", my best guess in spring 2002 as a 2003 model. Depends on how quickly Alabama comes up.
Geez, relax people...
26495 + 480(dest) + 3495(limited) + 595(6-disc) + 1015(leather) + 815(sunroof) + 850(VSC) + 250(side airbags) + 440(seat heaters) + 160(tow prep) + 290(tow hitch) = 34885.
I would remove the leather, heated seats, sunroof, and VSC(too expensive) to get the price down to 31765. If I could get that for 30000, I'd be happy.
http://www.usatoday.com/facelift/usatonline/20010112/2984673s.htm
http://www.edmunds.com/vehicles/2001/toyota/
http://www.edmunds.com/vehicles/2001/toyota/
No LCD systems display.
No Naviagtion system.
No memory for the driver's seat (a must have for me and my wife)
No anti-pinch safety for the power windows or moonroof.
Differently tuned suspension.
No high capacity gas tank.
No high intensity discharge lamps with auto-leveling.
No electro-chromic mirrors.
No heated seats (a must have in the North w/leather).
No 4-year warranty,7-year power-train, Lexus quality, service, road-asistance and loaner cars.
There might be other things I'm missing. Now I have no regrets picking up my RX300 with Nav next week.
TC
Also, to other folks out there, there is a great discussion in the Pathfinder forum about U.S. folks purchasing a car in Canada. THe advantages are:
1) Canadain dealers are prevented from selling higher than MSRP.
2) The Canadain versions of PFs and Highlanders come better equipped at the same trim level.
3) Because of the exchange rate, you will save an easy $3000 - $4000 dollars once the process is complete.
4) The Highlander is already selling in Canada (I believe).
If you are within the border by about 500 miles on either the east or west coast, the process is easy and has been documented by other Town Hall members. You bascially do all your paperwork over the phone or fax, wire money to a local bank, fly in, pick up bank check, goto dealer, drive home. Minor paperwork at the border. About 1 days worth of work to save $$$ thousands of dollars. Plus. many folks turn these little trips into vacations and stay in B & Bs as they drive home or tour around.
Just a suggestion.
TC
BTW, questions regarding that:
1. Will there be any import tax at the border?
2. So all the unit used on the unit will be Kilometers rather than Miles?
/direct/view/.ee9516f/683
You want message #672
Jon Lofquist is the gentleman who has documented the entire process in DETAIL. He encourages folks to email him. He is a super nice guy.
To answer some quick questions:
1) You will be charged a Canadanian tax, but that will be refunded to you through the mail.
2) You will have to pay a duty fee (I forget the %) but even after the fee, you will still save lotsa money.
3) Yes the speedo will more than likely be Kilo/miles, as oppose to Miles/kilos as in the U.S. You need to find a qualified dealer in your area that can swap the speedo out if that bothers you. Estimated cost is about $300 - 400, YMMV.
The other issue is the odometer. You must get it converted to miles from kilometers. This can be done but requires replacing the entire head unit on the speedometer. Should you ever sell the vehicle, there is a legal question as to whether you can state the miles are true and correct. Technically, it is a TMU or "true mileage unknown". You could probably get away with stating the miles are true but you open yourself up to possible litigation. The question is NOT settled.
If you don't plan on ever selling it and you have confidence in the dealership putting the VIN into the system, it can be a good deal. Other than that, don't mess with it.
--Dianne
sclifford@kjtoyota.com
http://www.usatoday.com/facelift/money/columns/healey.htm
There is a previous article about Acura MDX, in which there is a comparison about the 4x4 system in MDX with that in RX300. Again, the address is:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/columns/healey/0029.htm
If you get one without VSC, you will still have very good traction but not quite what you would with VSC. On the plus side, no hesitations or clicking noises.
VSC is standard on the BMW X5 and Lexus RX300. Then again, the Acura MDX don't have it and according to the James Healey article, the MDX handles ice and snow pretty good.
I tend to agree with the writer since I just bought a MDX. And to think that I wished my MDX had VSC. What was I thinking?
Anyway, can't wait for the Highlander to hit the showroom floor. I WILL test drive one. I love to test drive. I won't buy one, for obvious reasons.
Convenience package:
Keyless entry
Tonneau cover
Roof rack system
50 state emissions
Southeast toyota distributor
8-Way power drivers seat
Privacy glass on back window rear door and quarter glass
Carpet mats and trunk mat
Towing prep package maximum 3500 lbs
Full tank of gas - no charge
Prewire for alarm
4-Enkei bgat 16" alloy wheels (replaces 4 factory installed wheels listed)
Toyo guard protection group
is this about what they are going to go for or have they jacked up the price a bit?
Now that I've seen further pics, I'm glad I'm getting an RX300. The HL is just too bland in styling for my taste, plus as I pointed out before, lacking in some amenities that I find desirable.
But if Toyota dealers hold the price down, this car will surely be a hit and force the American Big 3 to design more safety systems into their SUVs. I can't believe we were ready to buy a loaded Jeep GC Limited because we could get a killer price on it... that is until I checked all the crash test data on it. Plus the fact you can't even get side-airbags. What a mistake.
If the HL frame is similar to the RX, then it should do very well on the crash tests.
TC
can get a better value with the RX-300(see post
#229 above). The Highlander does include some of
the items- heated seats and same size gas tank,
but some of the other features on the Lexus are
really usable in day to day operation- memory
seats, electrochromatic inside/outside mirrors,
water resistant front glass, longerbasic and
powertrain warranty are not available.
I priced a Highlander today at Toyota's. web site.
East coast fully loaded- $35480.00. It still does
not have all RX-300 equipment. We own 2000 and
2001 RX-300's. The price continues to drop on the
RX-300. I would expect 36500-38500.00 for a ism-
ilarly equipped RX-300 today. Lexus has to deal.
I doubt Toyota will on a new vehicle and even
worse may tack on dealer "extras". Lexus can't.
You could easily get a AWD model with the Premium Plus package for close to $36,000. The better wararanty, loaner cars, and other services is easily worth $1000.
TC
At least there are real differences between the Highlander and RX, and reasons to buy one vs. the other (especially after the Highlander's price drops). Unlike the Pathfinder/QX4 similarities that have hurt QX4 sales.
The Sequoia went for MSRP when it was first introduced but now there are reports of $2k-$3k off MSRP.
Just doesn't make sense and I constantly find QX4 owners "rationalizing" their decision.
Agree with you on the HighLander, if Toyota and the dealers don't screw things up, they've got a sure hit on their hands.
It's an amazing year to buy SUVs, there are so many good vehicles out there now. Take the MDX, I think it's a great value, but actually too wide for my driveway! I would have been happy with either the MDX or RX.
TC
I think the fact that the RX (and the HL?) have a center differential, and thus true AWD, that the torque being spread amongst all four wheels should give it a good chance of driving on sheet ice type conditions. Plus, there is the "snow" setting on the transmission which starts it off in 2nd gear from a standing stop. Helps prevent wheel spin.
TC
Also, their price calculation mechanism needs work. If you choose the Limited option, it adds $595 twice for the 6-disc option in the running total. Then at the end when summarizing, it doesn't include the $595 at all in the window sticker pricing total.
And another question - what does Sundown Red Pearl really look like? The Canadian brochure as well as the little picture at Toyota's website look like a real red. The picture at the Weick site as well as the one in Motor Trend almost look like the poor selling Autumn Mica that used to be on the Solara.
I am 6' tall and one of the biggest gripes I have with the current midsize SUV market is that there is insufficient room for my left foot. The best of the bunch I have found for this problem so far is the Pathfinder, which is still somewhat uncomfortable for me.
So, if any relatively tall people out there have checked out the Highlander please let me know what you feel about the footspace. Thanks.