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Comments
*sigh* Okay tell me whats wrong with resting your hand on the shifter pal ?
Rocky
GM will thrive 10 years from now!
Only if they start launching good product and quit canceling or delaying the good ones. Vehicles like the Aztek, god only knows why see production when my poor *sniffles* Buick Velite Roadster gets canceled. :mad:
Rocky
Resting your hand on the shifter puts unnecessary stress on the linkages, and is implicated as a possible culprit for the infamous "5th gear popout" on some older Nissans.
Like the displeasure of going to GM related dealers, who mostly could not diagnose or repair, at least until too much money and time were spent. Average, about one trip every 20k. Not a good record.
Higher on my list is GM's use of Daytime Rude Lights. A few years ago I noticed increasing aggravation while driving and it became a torrent - first was the 50% bright low beams, followed by the 50% bright high beams, then the extra driving lights and now the full time fog lights.
It makes the road look like a funeral procession and steals attention from other, non-rude cars.
Any company that arrogant and stupid as to put what can only be advertising ahead of annoying potential customers cannot be doing much else right either.
Another item is dropping of sealed beams for custom lighting. A simple $10-$20 bulb is replaced by a $100-200 reflector assembly. Sure the styling is 'better' but maintainability is worse. At the local car show I asked a rep how the headlight bulbs could be replaced. The booth girl allowed as to how she just took it to the dealer. I asked her if she took a lamp to the lamp shop when the bulb went out. No answer. It's not good when your reps don't know a good answer, and don't try to get them.
I notice this lighting repair issue as there are now a number of the early Daytime Rude Light vehicles that are one-eyed. The cars are now both irritating and sloppy looking.
Well, not as sloppy as the good old paint shedding days, but that's a disaster for another time.
The CTS interior looks too similar to other cars. The TL mentioned is one of them, it also reminds me of Infiniti's G35. I wish Cadillac would find a design theme for the interior that says 'Cadillac' about it. Granted though, I really do like this new interior and I'll probably like it more when I see it in person. The outcome could've been a lot worse I'm sure heh..
What bothers you so much about running lights? I know I would prefer those lower to the ground, which are more like fog lamps. Seeing the other car is a good thing.
Yes, the modern day headlamp assembly price is way out of hand, as is the cost for coded keys. Crazy world indeed!!!
-Loren
Rocky
P.S. The Buick Velite is my GM dream car. :shades:
"bells and whistles" and can expect them because the competition does deliver them. The Acura TL, Lexus IS & ES, Infinti G35, all got em' in this price segment. Acura and Lexus do take it a few steps further but Infiniti does deliver alot of car for the meager asking price. It is said to have class leading acceleration and performance, that probably will have BMW looking over it's shoulder. $35-37K will get you a loaded G35 with benchmark entry sport/lux performance numbers. I hope GM has done their homework and learned a few things from Acura, Infiniti, Lexus.
Rocky :shades:
P.S. I never heard of one resting his/hers arm on the shifter hurts the linkage. :surprise: Sounds like a design flaw to me. Nissan hasn't always be remarkable for quality, but like GM, they have finally came around.
P.S.#2 Are you saying that the 08' CTS has the same cheap plasticky interior as a Azera. :surprise: Come-on bumpy, go look at those pics again pal. :P
Rocky
DRLs definitely a great item -- why are you trying to blame GM for DRLs? Is this more of the Hate GM Logic? IIRC Canada mandated them long ago. I wish more cars had them on. I sometimes don't see a car of a color which blends into the background whether it's on a two lane highway and I'lm checkiing to pass a car or at an intersection.
The stylish reflector headlights are what the car buyers wanted in styling. Now many still complain about a certain car doesn't have what some other car has in the way of styling; the makers are giving them what they want. We get the expensive to replace lensing; the bulbs are cheap. I replace my own. Most people can.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What I like:
The cool red backlighting on the instrument panel
The cool hooded large round gauges
The Grand Am's sporty styling
Excellent fuel economy
Responsive engine
What I hate:
Cheap plastic interior pieces with mismatched light gray buttons against a dark background. Why did Pontiac do this for so long. It looked bad years ago and still looks bad today
Ugly fabrics on the seats
Torque steer that wanted to wrench the wheel out of my hands on hard turns.
The G6 looks so much cleaner and the interior quality is much better. Love the thin chrome outlines on the buttons and around the gauges. Looks so much nicer than those ugly light gray buttons.
It's plastic that's the problem. They use it everywhere and even in places where it shouldn't be at all. I certainly won't buy a car for $40K with plastic headlamps or a plastic dashboard.
It's not like all these retirees snuck up on them in the middle of the night...
-Loren
Resting your hand on the shifter keeps a constant tension on the shifter forks and bearings, which can distort and wear them out prematurely. The only time your hand should be on the shifter is when you're actually changing gears; the rest of the time it should be on the wheel, holding a beverage, fumbling with the radio, or adjusting your personal area. :P
You mentioned fumbling with the radio. Looking at the old shfiter position on the previous Mustang, I bet you could shift and change a station on the radio, in one fell swoop!
Speaking of style. Have you seen some Buicks with the shift for the automatic on the steering column? That way, you have the old 6 seater car back. Girlfriend, or wife by your side. Everything old, is new again. Heck, they have ports on the side of the car. A little of that retro thing going on there. Now make it RWD, and bring gas prices down to 38 cents a gallon, like when I was young, and we have a good ol' time!!!
:shades: Loren
Funny, I know of no car made today that the IP is not made of plastic. Perhaps Rolls or something like that uses what? Metal?
BTW, I think they're a great idea, and kudos to GM for pushing them. VW and Volvo were early adopters also.
GM botched them on the Saturn S series however -- too bright and too close together.
CD changer, cruise, simple trip computer, a/c, and (maybe) automatic climate control are good enough for me. I'd rather shift my own gears, too!
-Loren
For those that like the looks of the Lucerne, and feel the 197HP is enough in a car, may pass on the other makes and go for the Buick. There are some things to like about the car, no doubt. And I am sure they have their own personal reason to buy them new rather than saving $10K or more when buying them used. Some people just have to have Buick - they are Buick fans, just like Cadillac fans. It need not make dollar sense, or be the winner in a dozen magazines for car reviews. It just lights their fire, and serves them well. And there very well could be something the Lucerne does for them, which is better done than by the Azera. Some zero in on quiet, or style, or where a car is made. Everyone is different, and I am pretty sure the typical Buick and Caddy owner less likely to be shopping Hyundai - though I could be wrong. It would take a well done survey to really know for sure if people are cross shopping the three cars.
Now I am odd one in the survey, as I have owned all sorts of car.
I may try say a nice Sonata, and then a CTS used say to see how the two compared. But I am not the normal buyer. Maybe not normal period
-Loren
It's not the horsepower rating at 5000 rpm but the torque rating in start and stop driving that most people perceive as the power in a car. The transmissions gearing and the overall drive ratio affect that feel greatly.
I'm likely to check the Sonata after another year when I decide to look into another car. Azera? I don't know bout that.
A survey is hard to do without bias despite what occasional people claim. Here there are too many variables in likes, perception, past preference of brands, and price points vs options and appearance of a vehicle to make a definite decision that certain car owner types will switch to another car.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Torque gets you started, but horsepower keeps you going.
Yes, ahem....some of us here are TOO FORGIVING of GM, even of Cadillac, because we're so darn happy to see them put something out that is Good again....we forget that Cadillac should be the Standard of the World. The Cadillac of cars! Sadly, we have let that crown go over to BMW now. They clearly are the best performer, whether you like them or not. I don't have one, but I admit they have taken over the road and own it. Cadillac needs to take it back, and to do that, they have to do it ALL! Like Rocky says, everything you can get, should be on the
Caddy, and it should be on there first. Until that happens, and the interiors stop using second grade leather and plastic with satin nickel trim, they ain't there yet.
On that, I could not agree more! Ever sat in the back seat of one??? Back surgery usually needed. Horrible, is the word. Anything new has to be better than those.
By your logic, the optional 291-hp Northstar in the DTS (286 lb-ft @ 4400 RPM) is less powerful than the standard 275-hp one (292 lb-ft @ 4400 RPM).
See??? And they put this drek into the rental fleets, and when someone like me who has been unimpressed with GM for years has to rent one, and we get one of these Pontiacs (Ponty yacks), it reinforces to one that GM is just unconscionable pathetic! The last Bonneville I owned was just so awful, I swore off GM for life. Rented an 04 Grand Prix in Phoenix, and concluded, nothing at all had changed since 99.
Haven't yet driven a G-6, someday I'm sure it'll happen... But I've driven a Lucerne, and not much was done to change my opinion.
The last GM I was happy with was my 91 Park Avenue. But - the freeze plugs went out and rusted through at 40,000 miles - GM would not help me. Out of warranty. No excuse for that. Next car was a Lincoln, and have been in Fords and Toyotas pretty much since.
I can imagine - "I ran the child over because he had no Daytime Rude Lights. It was invisible."
Second, I've had a car pull out in front of me in drizzle conditions when I did have my headlights on. So, not looking is the problem, not that the car is invisible.
Third, when a car is backlit, early morning and late afternoon, a certain level of lighting will make the car blend into the back light (a method to camouflage airplanes used this principal)
Fourth, it makes it harder to see the tiny brightness change that turn signals make, not that many people use directional indicators, but for those who do, it's nice to see them.
There is no, none, nada, study that shows that Daytime Rude Lights are any help in the US. Anecdotal evidence can be explained by the novelty, which would wear off if all vehicles had Daytime Rude Lights. Anecdotal evidence also does not include when drivers hit non-Daytime Rude Light cars when distracted by Daytime Rude Lights.
I notice that these lights aren't shown in GM TV ads. The photography is done with these 'safety' items off, though sometimes the vehicle is shown with FOG lights on. If there's no fog there should be no fog lights.
Daytime Rude Lights have increased the number of motorcyclists hit during the day as their headlights are now indistinguishable from the background. Now the cyclists have low rate flashing headlights, but I suppose GM may come gunning for that as well.
For real safety a siren is a help because it does not even require looking. Is that next - sirens on all cars that are moving? Isn't that why emergency vehicles use sirens? To safely move through traffic.
As far as I can tell, GM uses Daytime Rude Lights as a product discriminator. It is cheap to wire the lights to be on all the time, the consumer pays for the gas (minor cost) and the bulbs (larger cost) and all the rest pay for it through reduced safety.
As far as 'what they want' that would require an informed decision. Anyone in a dealership ever say "You can have the $20 each sealed beams for which you can replace bulb, reflector, and lens for, well, $20. Or the new headlamp assemblies, which carry a $20 bulb, and a combined $150 reflector/lens assembly. Oh,the lens is not scratch or UV resistant, so should be replaced in 5 years, for, well $300 a pair, plus labor. They can also fill with water and become ineffective due to some minor flaw. But aren't they cool? Oh, and you won't see any better than with the $20 bulbs. " ?
Now that I think of it, maybe if I mount 5 or 6 HID rear facing lamps, then that would cut the odds of someone rear-ending my car. Good for me, sucks for everyone else. Isn't that what Daytime Rude Lights are for?
Well, Cover it up with some vinyl or texture it or SOMETHING. And then there's the copious use of plastic for the door panels, where it's really nothing but them being cheap. Then we get to things like leather seats that are so thin that they fall apart in 2-3 years. Check out the "leather" shifter cover on a Cobalt. It's paper thin. You'd think that they would just use a nice bit of heavy rubber instead.
Cars today remind me of cheap china. It looks better than stoneware initially, but which one will chip and break and look like crud within a few months? It's apalling how they are making nothing but bling and eye-candy and sacrificing interior substance as if it is meaningless.
Just look at the education level of the average American. They may not understand the extent of the problems that have occurred and their mechanic actually fixed. While Socala4 has knowlege of cars and what is being fixed at the mechanic, some people pay no attention and just get their car fixed pay the bill and continue to drive down the road. I have also noticed that many people pay no attention to issues when they start and let the car go so long a small $20 fix has turned into a $500 fix. So is it really the car being unreliable or the owner being a nit wit.
Also, what regular routine maintenance is to one person may not be so to another person. Just like the frequency of repairing a certain item is not as black and white as some would like to think. My point is people are really not educated about certain things.
The dot system really bothers me too. I personally would rather see an actual number there, because there are going to be some of those cars that scores just squeak by (Think back to school, a kid with an 79.99% most certianly did not do the same kind of work as a kid with a 89%. yet most often both got a
If very few people experience a specific problem, it will not translate into a black circle.
If very few people surveyed by the way of their customer base experience a problem it will not be reported. There are some cars that don't get enough responses at all to even get any circles or check marks. Personally I would like to see how many times the problem was reported maybe under warranty to the company vs. how many people report the problem to CR. That is just me, I do not totally discount CR's data but I often take it with a ton of salt (not a grain).
Which brings me to the sludge issue. This problem was evident during certain years on Toyota cars and minivans. Toyota obviously saw this as a problem and went as far as to offer owners of those vehicles an extended warranty. There are also several people online that have made statements as to the issue actually happening to them. I can't help but wonder why CR neglects to even mention it in their results section but does mention it in a totally different section that most people are not going to even look at.
Since you have received a survey from CR, do they ask as to the frequency of the repair? For instance, the tranny was needing repaired, but the dealer repaired it 4 times to get it right because their replacements continually failed, or does it just ask about the tranny repair problems? Is that one check mark or 4?
I would also want to know, what is reasonably expected for an item to last. I don't know what is reasonable for lets say a set of brakes. Some cars I would think would have a tendency to go through brakes faster than others (that is just an example). But does CR take that into consideration? I need more data to put together a reasonable assumption about a car and CR doesn't give that information.
I have to also wonder if they take into consideration the number of vehicles that are produced total. Toyota mini vans I don't think are produced in the same mass quantities as say a Dodge Caravan. If they are counting raw numbers of complaints about a certain issue and then not weighting that against the number of cars produced that would screw up the results. If Toyota produced 10 minivans and Dodge produced 50, even if both had a 1% problem rate, the Dodge would naturally have more problems reported. I don't know if they do this, if you know please let me know
Whether you subscribe to CR or Guns & Ammo (or both)
Truely pure statistics would survey a random sampling of people regardless of their affiliation with CR. So in other words they would obtain a listing of all people who own a particular car and randomly dial a certain percentage of their numbers to get a good data sample.
But a TSB issued for a problem that affects very few people will not show up on a survey meant to measure problems that occur frequently.
Aren't TSB's issued because of problems reported by owners and even mechanics? As someone looking to buy a car a circle with or without filling (kind of like a doughnut) doesn't give me good enough data to totally dismiss a car. In other words is the engine problem being reported something major, or is it something that is not as major but more frequently occuring. Is that repair going to cost me $100 to fix or is it going to cost $6,000. If that makes sense.
One excellent thing about CR is the overall number of responses -- it now gets about 1 million per year -- which should reduce the margin of error inherent in any sample, because it's an unusually high number of data points.
How many cars are there on the market at any given time? How many cars are on the road at any given time? I would again rather see how many responses they got for a given car, as well as the number produced rather than their dot system (although based on the average education level of most americans the dot system is probably hard for some of them to even follow). Some cars don't even get enough responses to generate a result. When you look at online reviews you can see that 76 people responded and the product got a 8 out of 10. CR doesn't do that. They just say we get x amount of responses a year. Ok, well how many get thrown out for certain reasons (and trust me surveys get thrown out), what kind of scrutiny does CR use when evaluating the responses they do get? What do they count as a response, surveys completely filled out or surveys just received by them in some form?
Short or long, I don't think it really matters. People are going to answer either very accurately or are really going to make someone wonder.. is this person on crack. Trust me, I have done surveys and often times you get honest people but sometimes you get jokers just filling in the dots (ahh.. remember the days in school when you had to take standardized tests and fill in the dots.... what kind of picture did you make?).
Blah blah blah.. on and on. I would not totally discount CR as a source of data but I certainly would not rely on it as the end all be all of great information on any one product. The smart consumer would be looking at different soruces of data and then making their final decision based on that collection . I think we both can agree on that??
Ford took a different approach. All of their cars are also Canada compliant, however, through a series of secret codes, your DRLs can be activated or deactivated by a dealer for you. The Canadian cars have them turned on, the US cars have them turned off, unless a customer asks for them to be activated. Also, just as cheap.
My Lexus has them. My Mercury does not. Given the choice, I have not had my Mercury's lights activated.
The CR survey is pretty simple. I doubt that comprehension is much of a problem, and in any case, there's no reason to believe that the comprehension of the owners of the unreliable cars is better or worse than those of the reliabile cars.
Think back to school, a kid with an 79.99% most certianly did not do the same kind of work as a kid with a 89%. yet most often both got a
But that's the point -- the difference within the ranges is going to lack sufficient statistical signficance to matter exactly what the percentage is. Every number will have a margin of error, so the difference between numbers within a given band doesn't matter much, if at all. Some of those on the borderline of two grades may get a boost or shortchanged, but overall, the grades should work out fairly.
If very few people surveyed by the way of their customer base experience a problem it will not be reported.
And if there is a reported result, then the sample size was large enough to matter. The fact that some cars are not reported due to insufficient data shows you that CR is doing the right thing by excluding nameplates for which it lacks enough data points.
For instance, the tranny was needing repaired, but the dealer repaired it 4 times to get it right because their replacements continually failed, or does it just ask about the tranny repair problems? Is that one check mark or 4?
Within a given category, that would count once. CR's goal is to measure the extent to which owners suffer "serious" problems in a given category, not the exact degree of severity for each individual owner. Nothing wrong with the methodology, and it makes it easier to pose the question in such a way that the answer will likely be more accurate.
Aren't TSB's issued because of problems reported by owners and even mechanics?
It doesn't take many complaints to the ODI for a TSB to be issued. In the case of many cars, it's well below a fraction of 1% of owners, and TSB's are not always issued for serious matters or for items related to reliability.
I have to also wonder if they take into consideration the number of vehicles that are produced total.
Not relevant. For the volumes in which cars are typically produced, you don't need a large sample size to get a sufficient number of responses to make the data worth reporting. If Gallup can estimate an election within a percentage points of accuracy with just a few hundred respondents out of 100+ million voters, you can see that a sample size of, for example 50 or 100 is a good measure for a car sold in the tens or hundreds of thousands.
People are going to answer either very accurately or are really going to make someone wonder.. is this person on crack.
And a survey with a sufficient sample size will suffer minimal effects from "outliers". It comes down to having a sufficiently large sample...and no, you don't need 4,000 surveys about a given car in order to get a pretty accurate result.
The smart consumer would be looking at different soruces of data and then making their final decision based on that collection . I think we both can agree on that??
Of course, but CR's survey is uncannily accurate. It's a very useful tool if you want to learn about problem areas.
As for rear lights, I do assume you have red lights which activate when brakes are applied. That should suffice.
As for daytime lights being only good for the oncoming car, and not for you, the car which could potentially meet head on with this oncoming car, I would say there is a little self benefit there. Unless a head-on crash doesn't hurt.
I don't think I like the headlamps on all the time. No objection though to running yellows.
-Loren
Not quite true. There have been studies in Scandinavia and Canada that claim that DRL's reduced fatality and accident rates there. You could extrapolate similar results to here.
That being said, I hate DRL's, and would not a buy a car that had them, if I could avoid them. I have optional DRL's on my car (they can be activated with a computer code), but you won't find me doing this anytime soon.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
I as you all ready know want General Motors to succeed. My god ever since I was a youngster I wanted to build automobile parts or cars. I graduated H.S. in 97' and a year before that dad told me they would be hiring around the time I graduated. Unfortunately that never happened even though in November of 2000 I was able to obtain a application but they were only going to hire 7 people and my cousin was one of the 7 that got lucky enough to be hired.
I would of been hired by GM or Delphi "IF" GM would of progressed faster and built cars that americans would really want to own. They slowly like dripping molasses built better and better automobiles. However the Japanese elites took 2-steps forward for ever 1 GM took and thus GM has lost market share.
Fortunately the General has realized it's do or die and there backs are against the wall. GM is finally taking stride for stride with the japanese now, but they have some catching up to do. They need to take 3 steps for every 2 Honyota takes.
Cadillac should be the "standard of the world" and not charge like it without delivering. The pontiac brand could of been a BMW/Acura alternative but still fall many "steps" behind. Acura's quality is better than Cadillacs in many respects and offers it's customers a premium vehicle at a affordable price. BMW has a reputation for being a benchmark and even though I think they are over-priced Infiniti's many love them and do own them.
I'm at least hoping that this Cadillac CTS will finally be the GM vehicle I can proudly spend my hard earn money on without regrets.
Rocky
Now if I get say a Tiburon, those have auto climate, cruise, and well let's just say lots of stuff, for less than brand X in an ever so basic car. Almost scary how much more car they have for the money. I may need to get a magnifying glass to look those cars over again. Heck crawl under there and look around. When I say stuff, this includes like side air bags. I was at a Chevy dealership, and looked at some six different Monte Carlos to see the prices and what they came with. Not a one had a side air bag. And the prices start low, but escalated as the options are added. Perhaps this is one of the reasons two of the cars were 2005 model year. Or it could be a few, let's say different styling lines which start or end a bit strangely. I don't know, I kinda like the uniqueness to the car. And it appears to be one of the few coupes out there in the market place. Was just kickin' tires. The price starts pretty fair, but sure can go up rapidly. Those left over 2005 cars I valued at around $15K to $17K now, if you figure in the 2007 model year is here, or near.
I wish the Big Two in USA would just keep it simple by offering the cars with all the safety stuff like Hyundai does, with say three levels which include most every option within the three classes. A base Monte should have the side air bags, and alloy wheels, with good tires. Really it is not suppose to be an econo car. What's all this LT1 - 2 & 3 then another level then... heck, make two to three levels which all have at least the basic goodies and safety items, and then the three different engines.
This $21k - $27k spread, then adding even more stuff, is almost like the old days when you paid for an extra outside mirror, radio, and air conditioning. I don't think many will pay up to $30K for a Monte anyway. Get the pricing simple, lower, and then knock a thousand off as needed to move the cars. I suppose they knock off $4K to $5K now??? Who knows, it is just a case of trying to see what someone will pay along the way. And in this case two of the cars are from 2005.
-Loren
To be honest Loren, if you want a coupe I'd get a GTO. Why not find a very nice used Trans-Am. You can still find them with like 50 miles or less on them like on auto trader. I'm afraid the Monte Carlo's resale value will hurt ya. The only one that is going to hold a decent value anyways is the LS-4 V-8 ones.
If I lived where you did Loren, I'd have me a Fox body Mustang for sure. something with RWD and fast at least
Rocky
I guess we should be thankful that Chrysler is the only one to the best of my knowledge that is doing employee pricing.
Rocky
Rocky