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The Aura, and New Malibu seem fresh, with some good to better than average looks about them. The G6 is not bad, but I am guessing, just guessing, that it is seen as too familiar a face in the Pontiac line. There is something about the sedan which looked dated from day one, and a bit off balanced looks wise. Wonder how people are liking the electric assist steering? I tried out the G6 coupe from a year ago, as it was on sale as a left over, and decided the Aura was better. And I may add the Aura XR is that much better than the XE. I understand they are no longer using electric assist steering with the V6 in the G6 line. So what of the i4? Other than rental cars, I simply see few G6 cars around here. And the coupe is very rare. The hardtop convertible was kinda cool, though they forgot the roll bars in the design. Oh well.
Wonder if the Cobalt some day is not made by the Daweo/GM division, or the GM/China plants to make it more profitable, while at the same time modern?
After seeing the photos of the Solstice Coupe, one has to wonder why it was not first into production. It would have a trunk, easier to build without cowl shake, being a hardtop, less cost to build, hardtop requires no roll bars, would have filled a gap of the missing sporty car, like a Camaro, and it looks awesome. Price could easily be just over $20K, if they can build the drop top for that amount. The Solstice needs a few tweaks for comfort and to get any bugs out, and then it is good to go for primetime!
Loren
I take you are thinking GM is a buy then long term, and it will double in price. So what of an $8 per share Ford stock? Now there is beaten down and stomped on stock.
Loren
They cut back on Rental fleet cars. they have increased other fleet sales (government, business)
I think it is safe to say that most people here are using "rental fleet" to mean fleet and you are correct. They are different animals.
You make a very valid point about the cost of European vehicles (their cost and then comparing them to what it would cost for the SAME vehicle in the USA. I recently read an interesting post about the Ford Focus.
Everyone is complaining as to WHY Ford does not bring us the European Ford Focus. The fact of the matter is that the same European Focus would have to sell in the USA for $20,000.00 or higher!!...and you know as well as I do that a Ford Focus is not regarded (here in the USA) as an OVER $20,000.00 vehicle. Sure, we would like to have it...but....it would not sell for the price competitively here.
My real question is how much would it cost to build the same car over here? How much would it cost to build it in (and I hate saying this) in Mexico?
Europe has unions and all the related matters (excepting basic health care)that we do.
Anyone with any ideas? Obviously GM is looking at this as they start marketing European designed Saturns and such.
As for imports, my first new car was a GM of Europe, as in Opel Manta Rallye, and it was very tight, and great handling. The engine was the bummer, and was just one of those things. Most people had better experience with the Opels of 1973. At the time, I think Opel was the top selling in class in Europe. The new Astra hatch looks pretty cool. Could indeed be a fine little car. America has never warmed to the concept of hatchbacks however, and have in the past considered them to be more econo boxes. Times change -- OK, times change to a degree. The PT was a success. I bet, if they market the hatchback Saturn Opels as hip, fun, yet practical, as in spacious, it may sell. After years of great ads, VW ad agency seems to have hit the wall for ideas. Saturn World Cars, I think would be a great idea to run with. Sell both domestic, German, and Aussie cars under one roof. Just slide in Pontiac, which is going Holdens, into the Saturn World Sales.
Buick could easily be the lower end line of Cadillac, like a LaSalle was. Or perhaps not. Would this diminish the value of Cadillac? Notice no Honda/Acura or Toyota/Lexus under one roof. Maybe it is not a good idea. Local dealership now has SAAB as the second line, but some years back it was Oldsmobile.
Loren
The denial of engine sludge problems was not a good thing - period.
Perhaps Toyota's management learned a good lesson there.
To identify a problem and fix it, and treat the customer well is key.
What transmissions are being replaced? Thought that was a reprogramming as required issue? Engine recall? Have not heard of that one.
When I had a Corolla, I was completely satisfied with warranty work done. Couple issues over time, and one thing with cost a few dollars after that in seven years, is not too bad. Like you say, you never know, they could build one tomorrow and have a tranny fall out. Things happen. Now if they happen too often, this is not good. If you couple reliability issues lasting years-being common in all cars, with less than desirable cars, and low resale value, that would really hurt. Not an issue yet with Toyota.
Loren
First European car I drove was my uncle's Opel Kadette. Someone needed to drive my grandmother home and his car was the last in the driveway. I was hooked on little cars than handle very quickly. My normal car back then was my mom's Pontiac Tempest wagon...
About design cycles, let me give it a shot (these are model years, not calendar years; please feel free to correct me as I'm going from memory):
Civic: 1973, 80, 84, 88, 92, 96, 2001, 06.
Corolla: 1969, 75?, 80, 84, 88, 93, 98, 2003 (to present).
Accord: 1976, 82, 86, 90, 94, 98, 2003 (to present). 2008 redesign coming.
Camry: 1983, 87, 92, 97, 2002, 07.
Cavalier: 1982, reskinned in 1995, continued into early part of 2005 model year.
Cobalt: 2005 to present.
Celebrity: 1982-89.
Lumina: 1990, 95.
Malibu: 1968, 73, 78 to 83. Revived 1997, 2004, redesign for 2008.
Impala/Caprice: 1971, 77, 91 to 96. Revived 2000, redesigned 2006.
So from this, you can see that Toyota and Honda were on a 4-year cycle mainly in the 80s into the mid 90s or so, then began stretching it to 5 years. The Corolla will go 6 years apparently.
Using Chevy as GM's example (their biggest division by far), cycles were much longer, but are now narrowing to match Toyota and Honda.
Loren
Loren
I do miss those old days when all the dealerships papered off the windows of the showroom, gathered the latest cars, like a new one called the Camaro, then all in the same night unveiled the cars in the showroom. What fun! How about walking in to the showroom in '68 say and seeing a Camaro and a Corvette along side a Malibu and a Corvair. All so cool looking. Now we get a car now and then, with hardly any fanfare. How about seeing the first Toronado, or boat-tail Riviera, or Pontiac GTO? Then walk across the street to find the new Challenger, or Shelby, or Eldorado.
Now you walk on a lot and they jump on you and you must let them know when you intend to buy, or else! Then those dreaded words roll from my lips, " just looking" !
Loren
Cavalier got a facelift for 1988, a reskin for 1995, and another facelift for 2003.
Lumina: 1990, 95.
Lumina started in 1988.
The Cobalt, I believe for 2009, based on the korean architecture.
The Epsilon midsizes are revised for 2009 or so as Eps II.
W's will be gone
Sigmas revised
Holdens large/midsize RWD revised soon and a new smaller architecture based on it coming out.
New large trucks are based on the old architecture.
Now the Lamdas are all new. Are the new midsize crossovers all new? (VUE)
I dont know where you live (CA probably) but I assure you the G6 is selling and I see them all the time. I have seen hundreds on the road and probably see 3-5 a day. I have seen all three models, but the GTP is pretty rare as is the convertible obviously. I understand that a lot of posters are from the west coast where domestic cars are only found at airports but that isnt necessarily representative of the country as a whole.
Just trying to be helpful.
You have to remember that one reason GM/Ford small and midsize cars are better in Europe is that they cost more and compete with higher end products. In the US no one considers a GM model (except Caddy) or Ford model to be competition for lower end BMWs or MBs but that isnt the case in Europe. Over there gas is high and people like premium compacts and midsize cars. Over there high speed cruising and smooth roads are the norm and their cars are designed for those conditions. GM could very well build Cobalts with navigation, big wheels (OK they have that here), 250hp engines, sport seats, HIDS, etc., but such cars would be $25k or more and none would sell. What people really want is for GM/Ford to offer the goodies of Euro models but charge the same old US prices and that aint happening. Making those cars here would not solve the problem at all, more content and performance will cost you more money.
I guess my real reason for not liking it is the fact that I never liked the classic Pontiac styling to begin with. And yet, somehow, I don't mind that you can identify a Buick from a mile away. There's a certain elegance to it. I can understand how soem would feel abou Buick like I do about Pontiac. "Hey, look at that old guy car!" Well, I can order of the senior menu at IHOP (you have to be 55 for that) but haven't reached geezer age yet (I haven't seen that defined anywhere yet).
Right now a Buick with a tight suspension and an attitude hiding behind that conservative exterior could work.
Now, those '60s Pontiacs! Good God! They were works of art! What do you do for an encore? When you stepped into a 1960s Pontiac, you KNOW you clearly were a step up from a Chevrolet.
No, it was 1990 for the Lumina. GM's other W-bodies: the Grand Prix, Regal, and Cutlass Supreme coupe, came out as 1988 models. The Lumina was held back until 1990 though, and launched at the same time as the 4-door Cutlass, Grand Prix, and Regal.
Chevy and Pontiac dumped their A-cars (Celebrity, 6000) almost immediately, allowing the W's to replace them, but curiously, Buick and Olds held onto their Century/Ciera. Probably because they were still strong sellers, and cash cows by that time, since the tooling and fixed costs had long since been amortized.
As for the Cavalier, my understanding is that the 1995 re-skin was actually pretty substantial. I think one major change was going from a live rear suspension to an independent rear suspension.
Oh, another long-lived GM model was the N-body. It debuted in 1985 as the Grand Am/Calais/Somerset Regal, and was heavily based on the J-body (Cavalier), although it was a pretty substantial re-work. Chevy got their version (Corsica/Beretta) in 1987. It was heavily reworked in 1997 to become the Malibu, and then in 1999 the Grand Am/Alero adopted this platform.
I think the '97-03 Malibu and '99+ Grand Am/Alero were designated something other than "N" body though. And IIRC, the Beretta/Corsica actually had a separate designation.
Impala/Caprice: 1971, 77, 91 to 96. Revived 2000, redesigned 2006. Looking back, the difference today might not seem that substantial, but GM's B- and C-bodies went through a restyle in 1980 that, on average, jetissoned about 150-200 pounds of weight. In the case of the Chevy though, I wonder if a good deal of that was because they switched from a 250 inline six mated to a THM350 tranny, to a lighter 229 V-6 mated to a THM200C tranny? By 1980, I think the base weight of a V-6 Impala was around 3380 pounds! The re-skinning also resulted in a more sloping hood and a slightly higher rear deck, and smoother lines overall that supposedly improved aerodynamics by about 15%.
I think if the recession had carried on much longer, the Impala/Caprice would have ended up being axed for 1982, and the Malibu would have been given more formal, expensive-looking styling and rebadged as Caprice. Pontiac actually did a move like this, dumping the big Catalina/Bonneville after 1981, and restyling the LeMans and renaming it Bonneville.
I have an old Car & Driver from early 1982 that did a road test of a Caprice, and they mentioned that right around that time, big cars were starting to make a comeback (interesting; I didn't think that happened until 1983). Supposedly the Caprices were flying off the lot at close to sticker price, while the much more modern Celebrities needed hefty rebates to get moved. The article also mentioned that Chevy was thinking about dropping the B-body Caprice for '82, but judging from Pontiac's situation at the time, it's probably a good thing they didn't.
Had one for many years and it served well for many true SUV "utility" functions. Mine had a 35 gallon gas tank. I would not want to do a $120+ fillup on it today.
Don't think much difference in vehicle weight or initial cost between Tahoe vs Suburban and Suburban much more practical. But, the marketplace apparently buys more Tahoes than Suburbans.
Maybe the "Suburban" name is the longest running continuous model that GM has.
Maybe a lot of people just don't want the extra bulk of a Suburban. I don't know the specs of the current models, but the previous Suburban was about 218" long, whereas the Tahoe/Yukon was around 196-199". In car terms, that's kinda like me ditching my '79 New Yorker (221") for my Intrepid (203")!
I would agree with that. If you rarely haul long stuff or 4x8's, and don't have a lot of kids, then Tahoe is fine.
Come on. You are really stretching it here. The only similarity is the arrow. And to me that is one sharp car I would love to add to my stable (convertible of course).
G6 is a sharp car. It has a swoopy/snarky/sporty look to it that the camry/accord do not have. About the only thing close in the mid market is the mazda6.
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/search/detail.aspx?id=000790-200606-000015
L car but basically the same platform.
For that you get the extra rear seat and a bunch of sheet metal. Most everyone does not need the extra space capacity and do not want the extra length due to garage and parking. The sub is a beast to park and the Tahoe is a lot easier.
I really don't see much classic Pontiac style in any of the current lineup. IMO, most of what Pontiac has out there today looks like it was decended from the 1992 Grand Am, with the slanty headlights and under-sized split grille with the honeycomb pattern.
The G6 really doesn't do much for me, but at the same time, I don't despise it. Something about its style though, makes it look smaller than it really is. IIRC, wheelbase is something like 112", and overall length is about 190"? Not exactly tiny. But for some reason, when I see them on the road, they just seem diminutive. The Aura has a much more substantial presence about it.
For some odd reason though, I kinda like the G5. I think it's a nicer looking car than the Cobalt. But then, I always liked the Astre better than the Vega. :P
higher window sills on the Aura.
The G6 convertible really could appeal to me. Suddenly hardtop convertibles are becoming a big item. This is a trend I like!
I would echo lemko's comments on Pontiac almost word for word.
I would think Suburban would be as old a nameplate as is still around. My dad had a 49 Suburban for deliveries for his grocery store when I was a kid.
I think the Antara/Vue is a new GMDAT design.
Actually, I dunno. How long has Safeway used "Lucerne"? :shades:
Otherwise, I'd guess "Grand Prix" is probably the next runner-up, dating back to 1962. "Impala" dates back to 1958, but was out of the loop from 1986-93 and 1997-99.
When did Toyota first start using the "Corolla" nameplate?
Yeah, that was what I was getting at. That split grill thing goes way back. To me it emphasizes the nose too much.
Like you, it's not like I hate the design - just not my cup of tea.
Like lemko said, in earlier days you were really aware when you saw a Pontiac that this was a step up.
I'm with you on the G5 as well.
Do you live at a Pontiac dealership? There is one old guy around here who has a G6 convertible, and I see an occasional G6 sedan every so often. I see five of the final-gen Bonnevilles for every G6.
The main thing I don't like about the G6 is its giant butt. The Malibu doesn't have that, but the G6's low front end and super-high back end make the sedan look like a door stop and the coupe look super awkward. I didn't like that high butt on the gen-2 Neon or the Echo, either.
I see tons of G6es myself, but there is an Enterprise lot just down the street. :shades: Just kidding. Actually, I don't see them that often. I'd say the Pontiac I see most often these days is probably the current Grand Prix. With the '67 Catalina and '76 LeMans being a close runner up. :P
I've always felt that the Cobalt and G6 look very much alike and instead of keeping that Malibu design, Chevy should have gotten the G6. But then again I don't agree with a FWD Pontiac.
Someone did, at least most of it. It's called the Mazda3, and Mazda can't make enough of them to meet demand.
What people really want is for GM/Ford to offer the goodies of Euro models but charge the same old US prices and that aint happening.
Possibly true for some, and you're right, that in particular ain't gonna happen. But I think Mazda and some others have proven that people are willing to pay a premium for premium features in a compact vehicle. Now that GM has the Aveo to slot in below, for bargain-basement shoppers, it's certainly an option to content-up the Cobalt and increase the price. Small car interest has gone way up when gas prices did the same. How well has the CTS sold? Not exactly a large vehicle there. I'm thinking sales of the Astra will show what I'm talking about if they keep most of the features intact.
Really it's a reskin...the chassis isn't being updated, ESC is being deleted, along with the hatch and wagon versions.
Do you ever see fusions? Sonatas? Both are in the same sales league as the G6 (slightly higher, but close) and I see both of them pretty often.
The Focus is about as new as a car can get without changing platforms. All new interior and exterior plus a new body style is not a reskin. The 2008 STS, that my friend is a reskin. Same applies to the 2006 Vue when they changed the front end and upgraded the interior.