By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
In the past, I found that CR mag. did reflect many of the same issues I suffered with my cars. Not sure what to think now. Found other brands of autos which show as OK in 2005 magazine, then much worse in 2006. It is like several brands and models hit the wall.
In my observations of cars in the five to fifteen age group, I would IMHO call the average Japan make as looking in better shape than the GM or Ford. But of course it varies from one car to another, and there is no way of telling the poor cars history of use and abuse. Do import owners care more for their babies?
Do you believe that a modern day Cadillac or Lincoln is going to go from reliable to terrible in the course of one year when it passes from four or say five years of age? One would have to believe this to believe in the current data collected. I would not say it is true. If it was, I would stay far away from such an expensive car. In my time, going back a few decades, people thought so highly of both Cadillac and Lincoln, they would consider them to be at least a ten year if not a twenty year car. Even the poor people bought then as the engines would keep on running for so long.
While I have had the best luck with Japan makes, I somehow can not see top of the line American cars as being so unreliable as indicated.
-Loren
CR has a long-winded explanation of their algorithm for the meaning of the red and black dots. They are in relation to the information about other cars. There are no definite percentages earned to warrant a black or red dot.
A change from one year to the next in the next therefore could just mean others were reported as substantially better than the reports for that car and thus the car earned the "black dot."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's false. CR lists specific percentages to match each category.
-Loren
Sure, there are plenty of old, wealthy people out there who need simple, comfortable transport. But go up to anybody on the street and ask them if they'd happily plonk down $25-30k for a Grand Marquis, or LaCrosse, Century, LeSabre etc.
If GM succeeds in lowering the age of Buick buyers, then perhaps some of the stigma of the brand (and trust me, there is stigma) will fade away and Buick could experience a renaissance.
"Today's Buick IS yesterday's Cadillac, at a much lower price."
;-)
I think GM aiming Caddy at a lower demographic is a good idea.
GM has lost a lot of their core demographic, and I like this approach will grab some of those future big spenders back.
Hell, GM should GIVE me that LaCrosse and pay me to drive around in it. I bet it would help sales.
:P
Au contrare, alp, I personally know many a former GMer who switched to Lincoln in the 90's, because as most of them said, "they don't make real Cadillacs anymore"....
"GM has lost a lot of their core demographic, and I like this approach will grab some of those future big spenders back."
Now, you contradict yourself. You made the point that people won't switch - now you're saying a Toyota loyalist will try a Cadillac over moving up to a Lexus? That's crazy. :surprise:
I don't think that is a contradiction. I didn't say "people won't switch." Wasn't I talking about Caddy drivers? (not all people) A guy who was STILL driving a Cadillac in 2005, after driving Caddy for 30 years, is likely way more of a "loyalist" than any Camry owner. Remember that the Caddy driver has been trying to convince everyone under the sun that it was OK to drive Caddy.
I don't know that Camry buyers will choose a CTS over a Lexus, but it's a risk GM had no choice but to take. No matter what GM does to make Pontiac or Chevy (or Buick) sporty, the guy buying a Lexus GS, or a BMW 3 or 5, isn't likely to look at that Pontiac, Chevy or Buick. Part of what he is buying is a nameplate. I think he's more willing to look at a Caddy than a Buick, etc. But that's just my take, from where I sit. I have certainly been wrong before.
If a guy already moved over to Lincoln, then he's already gone. Maybe as he gets older he'll smarten up and move over to Buick. Maybe not. Those guys can't be GM's biggest worries. Or maybe that's exactly who GM should worry about. Are there more old Caddy-then-Lincoln-now guys than there are old Caddy-still guys? I dunno.
My neighbour had $5,000 repairs on a 5 year old Jaguar and a 4 year old Concord just after the warranty ran out.
No, he bought it three years old for about $10K at the time.(was $14K new) Ran it for 15 more years at less than a thousand in maintainence a year. Now, mind you, this car didn't have the bad dexcool coolant or plastic manifold, so there was no problems with the gaskets or the engines self-destructing. Those years are indestructable, or just about.(the deal is to get a pre-dexcool model - someone here should know when that was)
The car, and my car(a 87 LeSabre - same car, other than the interior) both got upwards of 175K miles before they finally died. Not due to mileage, they still ran like new - but the rest of the car fell apart at 18 years(for each of them).
Your neighbor.. he really should stop buying Fords and Jaguars(doubly so if it was a pre-buyout model make in the U.K. - possibly the worst reliability of anything other than a Yugo) Nobody that I know has had anything but a horror story with Fords and reliability, other than maybe a Towncar/Crown Vic and ones that are really made by other companies, like the Focus.
As for the whiner about the repairs, you're right - dump the car for ~$1000 with the blown engine. Consider himself fortunate for getting 5 years and 60K miles for under $3K.
Finally - 6-10 year old LeSabre for 4-6K with 40K miles...
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=203067044
Just searched within 25 miles of me on autotrader. Note, those are asking prices. Offer him 4K in cash and it's yours I bet.
Under 40K - 4K. 8 years old. Owned by a grandfather(big surprize) I think you owe me a drink or something
Depreciation is already a moot point - what - $500 a year? Repairs are going to cost about $1K a year or so, but that's easier than a typical car payment to be sure.
Drive it for 5 years - put a total of about 10K into it, including registration, purchasing it, and repairs. Sell it for $2K and laugh at your neighbors as you pour money into your IRA or investments instead.
Yes, NEW Buicks are horrendous buys and anyone buying new should have their head thwapped and sent to detention. Used, though, they are fantastic cars if your goal is to get from A to B and save money(plus the leather and goodies don't stink compared to a typical econobox)
-Loren
>"A few black dots or red dots might not mean much, but if there is a whole row of black dots, you can assume it is a poor buy."
>"Absolutely agree, modest differences may not mean anything at all, and may sometimes be attributely largely to the margin of error, rather than real differences. Data has to be used in context with the understanding that there can be some degree of error, but those imperfections don't mean that the data has no value."
In more than one of the discussions (Buying AMerican, Styling Save GM, etc.) the meaning of the dots of death/glory has been discussed in decating CR's value vs JDP. I can't find the quotes now but it seems that black dots don't mean a certain percentage of negative reports (whatever those are to CR) about a model from year-to-year. In 1998 a black dot may mean a certain percentage, but in 2003 and 2006 that black dot may mean a higher percentage. Since many cars have improved greatly in quality (as they should have) the dots mean a car is slightly or much lower in quality than a model without black dots--which ever cutoff point CR chooses for that year. I.e., a car with black dots in 1995 may have been a step below in quality than those cars without dots; but in 2006 the same car may only be slightly lower but will earn the black dot because CR decided there has to be a cutoff, albeit much less difference between the two cars.
See:
imidazol97, "GM - Will 2006 Styling save GM?" #6000, 12 Jun 2006 5:53 am
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually yes, I do believe that the reliability ratings can change drastically from year to year, as a car ages. Many variables could be at play here. For example, if a particular car scores really poorly one year, chances are it had a lot of repairs done, and that may hold off additional repairs in that cateogory for the next year. For instance, if a lot of 1997 LeSabre water pumps or radiators went out in 2003 and were fixed, then most likely they won't go out again for years, so in 2004 it's possible the 1997 LeSabre could score much better, since those problems were fixed.
Or sometimes, what happens is that the car is actually no more reliable in the following year, but other cars get worse. If the same # of '97 LeSabre radiators that fail in 2004 is equal to 2003, but, say, every other brand has worse luck with their radiators in 2004 than in 2003, then the LeSabre's rating would automatically get boosted up.
Back in the 80's, GM cars, especially the RWD models, were famous for having reliability ratings improve as they aged. For example, by the time it was 5-6 years old, CR used to recommend the 1986 Bonneville V-8. There is no way in hell that they would have recommended that car when it was new. As a new car, it was more troublesome on average than other cars on the market, but tended to age better than other cars as the years went by.
And just to use a sample of one, well, 2001 wasn't a great year for my Intrepid. That year I needed the thermostat housing replaced. The power assist to the passenger-side mirror also broke, and the rubber door seals started to shrink up. In contrast, for 2000 all the car needed was maintenance-type stuff. Oil/filter changes, front brake pads, new tires. Then in 2002 it was just maintenance stuff again. Then for 2003 it had problems with the oil pressure light, but other than that, just maintenance. For 2004 it needed new front brake rotors, which I guess you'd just consider a maintenance item these days, but it was still an annoyance. For 2005, a new battery, and just more maintanance. And just maintenance for 2006.
So, compared to other cars, my Intrepid may have scored in the following way over the years...
2000: Much better than average
2001: Much worse than average (cars are still new enough and usually reliable enough that even fairly minor problems can sink their ratings)
2002: Much better than average
2003: Average
2004: Average
2005: Much better than average
2006: Much better than average (so far)
Now, this is only a data point of one, but as you accumulate more data, patterns will appear, and it is quite possible for one car to have wildly different ratings from one year to the next as it ages. If my car is "normal", then CR's overall reliability ratings would somewhat line up with it. Or if it's an anomaly, they won't.
Are water pumps going out (typically 75K-150K?) considered a car flaw. I recall that was mentioned in the one example of the 1997 Buick earlier. I consider waterpump replacement a normal wear item. If you don't change your coolant every two years (even DexCool, grin) or 36K miles you may speed up or cause pump failure.
The same lack of maintenance can cause radiator corrosion or plugging, DexCool comes to mind also!
Does CR include water pump replacement as a flaw or is that up to the consumer filling out the survey?
>Or sometimes, what happens is that the car is actually no more reliable in the following year, but other cars get worse.
That's the moving meaning of the red/black dots to which I referred. It's hard then to judge what black means in 2006 if you're looking for info about a used car to buy.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But whether they'd call it a maintenance item, I dunno. I always looked at maintenance as things that wear out regularly and need to be replaced, such as tires, belts, hoses, coolant, spark plugs, filters, brake pads, etc. I guess if you keep a car long enough though, you run the chance that EVERYTHING could become a regular replacement item!
I don't know how CR surveys would break out maintenance items, either. I'd imagine that most people would probably put down brakes as a trouble spot even if they were just getting new pads. And I don't know if CR's survey would be sophisticated enough to account for that. Or, if something happens such as wearing out brake pads prematurely, does a maintanance item then become a real problem?
FWIW I'm not a subscriber. My Granddad had been getting them though for awhile, and he'd let me have his old issues.
I think someone posted a scan or copy of the CR questionnaire. If someone still has it, please post link or email me. I'd like to see it to see how the questions handle things that are maintenance.
Dodge Dart 1960: Great car. Drove one back in the day when Dad was shopping for his last new car. Torsion bar suspension, push button shift IIRC-ala Edsel. Reverse tailfins-Chrysler always has a way with styling to make you look twice.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The car I was commenting on was the Chinese Buick LaCrosse. Why isn't this
nice car being built here in the United States for U.S. consumption ???? I
saw pics of the car on the net. The interior and quality is light years
ahead of the U.S. cars and is nicer than the Toyota's. Seriously.
Thanx
Rocky
My response back I thought was important enough to share:
Dear Rocky,
Thank you for contacting Buick and for your interest in the Buick LaCrosse! We
apologize for the delay in our response and regret the inconvenience it has caused
you. Keep in mind that cars in other country are hard to compare. The Chinese
LaCrosse is a different type of vehicle. One cannot really compare the two
vehicles, as the vehicle is made more comparable to Cadillac than Buick. In fact,
Buick is very popular in China, and Chinese generally purchase higher end luxury
vehicles. It may be more comparable to the Lucerne or even the Cadillac DTS, than
the LaCrosse. A name is simply a name, especially when comparing products from
other countries.
Sincerely,
..................
Customer Relationship Manager
Buick
:surprise:
The response I was given was a little odd. It was like almost saying we wouldn't as customers here in the States buy a $40 thousand dollar LaCrosse. I'm like sure we would if the product, justified the price tag.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
On its survey, it is specifically listed under "Engine Cooling", as you guessed.
I don't know how CR surveys would break out maintenance items, either. I'd imagine that most people would probably put down brakes as a trouble spot even if they were just getting new pads.
Respondents are told to exclude routine maintenance items or repairs required because of accident damage. They are told to only report defects that are considered "serious", which is followed by a long list of items that could be serious.
Like any survey, there is room for user error, and I don't see how that can be eliminated. I've developed surveys before on other subjects, and it is hard work to craft a survey that is of the proper length (too short and you learn too little, but too long and respondents either don't finish it or just start checking things off randomly) and that every respondent will fully comprehend. (You never really know whether the surveyed are following directions or understand the questions.) That being said, the output still seems to generally be pretty useful and accurate enough.
Dad, also said he felt Delphi will rebound as mostly a "foreign sourced supplier" of autoparts. He knows he's one of the "lucky ones" that enjoyed a time where his work really mattered.
Dad also said something that should grab ya'lls attention !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dad, told me that Delphi management is offering unlimited "overtime" to folks to just stand around and sit in the break room to RUN-UP man hours to inflate the numbers like costs to get the judge to have more sympathy for the company for this bankruptcy. The UAW judges already have noted this new practice. Dad said they don't have any parts to run by wednesday because of all the overtime. Is this not crazy or what ???? :surprise:
He is scheduled to retire on July 1st and he is really worried about his new trainee being able to do his job since this guy isn't very mechanically inclined. His trainee has considered flowing back to GM, which would really leave the company in a pinch.
Rocky
That's sleazy.
Sort of like hospitals building more and running up their debt so they get more money from medicare/medicaid, whichever it is, in payments from us US taxpayers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well the good thing is my step-dad starts ths coming wednesday at Delphi. His brother a retired employee griped about possibly eventually losing his insurance and didn't seem very happy for him :confuse: I did congratulate my step-dad and wished him well. Hopefully all will work out and he can someday make decent money at Delphi. My aunt is trying to transfer to the Wyoming Mi. plant since it's one of the 8 that will remain here in the U.S.
Rocky
But they change what percent of problems the black and red dots mean from year-to-year, based on what people have explained here in various forums. The lack of information about their data and their reports and their numbers of reports on each model leaves a large void in CR's info.
Many people will include aggravating breakdown of parts, even due to their lack of regular checking for impending breakdown, as a major problem which is the fault of the car. This would apply to any brand of vehicle when they report.
If people find it useful, maybe it's that it supports other evaluations, anecdotal or not, that they themselves have.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Tire replacement is also excluded, but if faulty alignment caused premature tire wear, then the suspension system would be dinged.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In the 1994-2005 time frame, they were reporting on the absolute frequency of problems, which is why in past issues, older cars had worse records, because as cars age, more things go wrong. Readers were supposed to compare a given car to the "average" car which was often listed at the beginning of the listings. It could be confusing.
Many people will include aggravating breakdown of parts, even due to their lack of regular checking for impending breakdown, as a major problem which is the fault of the car. This would apply to any brand of vehicle when they report.
This is true, but presumably cars that are better built to begin with, having more durable parts able to withstand more abuse, would on average suffer fewer breakdowns, in relative terms.
In answer to a link to the survey, no I don't have one -- I'd have to copy the survey word for word. I think SoCal posted the survey earlier.
vehicles. It may be more comparable to the Lucerne or even the Cadillac DTS,
Yeh, what a kiss off!
Why not just say you Americans wouldn't appreciate or pay extra bucks for a world class car!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
money on that Buick. oil changes arent cheap you know.. plus i have had to buy tires and replace the brake pads...even the serpentine belt had to be replaced at 153,000 i dont think i will be driving a japanese car any time soon...
Rocky
If all cars have an average of 10% breakdown in 5 years (I know that would be bad but this is an example) then a car with a 20% breakdown would be an above average breakdown rate. Wouldn't this be the way they report their findings?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
LOL.....Dr. Savage, would say something like that.
Rocky
Although no one feeds quite as low on the talk-show food chain as Coulter (Michael Savage comes close), there are ever more people popping out of nowhere who make for good television simply by going too far.
...the usually mild-mannered former presidential adviser, David Gergen, who called her words and charges ``ugliness.``
``It's almost as if she's a figure in a circus,'' Gergen said. ``And you're saying, `Oh, my God. Can you believe that?'''
See this for more.
BTW, around here (central VA, a red state as you know), the oldest cars I see typically still running around are Volvo 240s and Mercedes of the 80s. Pickups -- well of course there are a lot of beater Chevy C/Ks and Ford F-series.
I really don't see many old beaters around here in West Texas. It seems like everyone is driving 2000's or better vehicles. :surprise:
Rocky
I have, but still enjoy listening to him.
Does anyone know exactly when the Pontiac G8 going to be released here in the states ???? I keep getting spring of 2007' and others are saying fall of 2008.
Rocky
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I thought that was Buick's market!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Also Haliburton, and Phillips all within a half-hour in Borger. You also have to realize how much Big Farming is in the area. We also have a couple of Government facility's like where I work that pay very well. So yeah we have lots of McMansions in the area and lots of very nice modern cars rolling down the roads. The Texas Panhandle has it's fair share of very wealthy people and that includes many residents of Dumas.
Now back on subject. I was reading a article saying that a Saturn Aura Redline could see production. I'm very curious on what engine that car could have. It would make good sense, since the Acura TL is due to get a good bump in horsepower this next yr. from what I've read.
Rocky
Now in my immediate area, in the Maryland suburbs, there aren't that many old cars, although there's a local cruise-in on Monday nites that might bring out 30 or 40 old cars. If you get out of the congested suburban sprawl areas though, and into some of the more rural areas, there are still plenty of older cars. Places like southern MD, Maryland's eastern shore, western MD, etc.
Now by "plenty", I'm talking in relative terms here. I wouldn't advise telling someone to go stand at the intersection and don't come back until they count 5 blue DeSotos (I think they did that to Mel once in an episode of "Alice") unless it's someone you don't want to see for a long, long time!
besides, I'm not sure about your logic. How the heck does your example show that CR is "left wing"?
they may be anti-GM, but that hardly makes the rag "left wing"
I guess since it provides information to the consumer, thus empowering the consumer, it is anti-corporate, which wants all of us in the dark? I've always felt that if a company did not want the market to have ALL the possible information, that you should not buy that company's products. They obviously have something to hide. I guess wanting consumers to have product information makes me a Marxist???
I thought a free market was only "free" if the demand side had good information. I guess I was wrong.....