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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • ofcourseofcourse Member Posts: 2
    I am a leftie Democrat, and I own (bought and paid for) three American vehicles, a Ford, an Oldsmobile, and a Dodge. Don't lump people into categories and make silly assumptions. That goes both ways. I love America just as much as anyone else.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I drive whatever my company gives me which is currently a Subaru that I think was built in the US. I would have to go and check to make sure.

    My Cadillac Escalade is built in MEXICO..... And I thought it was funny when everyone (where is Rocky anyway??) was having a stroke that Ford was building the Fusion in Mexico, but his own beloved GM built flagship cars there - unbeknownst to most, but knownst to me....since I own one.

    Now, seriously, I love Rocky, he's a good guy. One of my favorite Pinkos!!
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    I trust you are not driving tonight. ;)
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Mexicans do the job than Americans do not want to do (like building Fords) and built in Mexico Fusion and Milan are winning awards for quality and reliability. So Mexicans do the job than Americans do not want to do pretty good.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    A bit overserved am I, euph?? Possibly....

    Look, I NEVER said a thing about quality of Mexican built cars, save..... That was not the point of my comment - I'm all for it. It gives the Mexican nation a fighting chance at a decent job and decent life, for far more than they can make doing anything else down there - it's a great job for them. If our unions weren't so greedy here, we could compete in the world market without outsourcing. And perhaps we wouldn't have the illegal immigration problem so much if the Mexican citizens could make a living there. Generally though, they have no chance at an education, no chance at a better than menial job there, unless they're juiced in by some corrupt government official who takes bribes from those who want to stay in business. It's a mess. And it's no wonder they flock to the US. That's the way I see it anyway, or it could just be the drugs.... I don't know. What were we taking about anyway? Lincolns? OH yeah, they're made in Mexico, I think.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I don't think Rocky fits into any easy categories. Sometimes he says stuff that puts him well to the left of me and other times he says stuff that puts him way to the right of me.

    He is definitely one of those people that is not served by the two party system.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    economy was more capitalistic, their economy might grow and keep them illegals down there working, where they are quite legal as they are Mexican citizens...
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    (where is Rocky anyway??)

    Heyjewel hasn't been around for awhile either. He and Rocky were seldom in the same book - let alone on the same page. I miss them both!
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    Greedy or not - American workers cannot compete with Mexicans. They just cannot survive here with salaries Ford pays to Mexicans. Take VW. They build cheap cars in Eastern Europe and Spain while premium and luxury models are build in Germany. Not because Eastern workers are not as good as Germans (they may be actually better), but because it is only way to provide jobs in Germany (probably mostly for Turks living in Germany) and still be able to survive. Ford can do the same thing – build Lincolns in USA and Fords in Mexico. And btw I still believe that Americans workers can do a better job and are would be more qualified if there were no unions. Several thing are screwing America, politicians and unions are on top of the list. And all because people in this country do not want to take power into their own hands anymore.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    because people in this country do not want to take power into their own hands anymore.

    And why is that? Do they not know how? Or are they willing to let union bosses and politicians take charge because of low self esteem, ignorance, lazy, or all of the above? :confuse:
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    This just in...

    Automotive News has released latest figures for the market and the year to date. I post a few of the luxury marques here to show where Lincoln stands today---miraculously gaining ground, inch by inch.

    Marque/July//YTD-2007
    =====================
    Aston-Martin/146//730
    Audi/7,127//52,838
    Bentley/271//2,527
    BMW/24,295//168,874
    Cadillac/17,412//115,103
    Ferrari/132//924
    Ford/159,437//1,276,374
    Jaguar/1,136//9,597
    Lamborghini/82//574
    Lexus/27,141//187,343
    Lincoln/8,929//82,262
    Lotus/217//519
    Maybach/10//70
    Maserati/185//1,355
    Mercedes-Benz/18,595//136,889
    Porsche/3,230//21,089
    Volvo/9,549//63,357
    Rolls-Royce/34/238
    =============================
    BMW AG/29,398//192,940
    Ford Motor/194,092//1,565,375
    DCX/156,333//1,387,780
    GM/315,870//2,213,590
    Honda/145,049//907,978
    Toyota Motor/224,018//1,555,132
    VWAG/27,051//189,898
    ==============================
    Total U.S.: 1,309,092//9,557,516
    Source; Automotive News DataBook

    In terms of premium higher priced cars/trucks BMW, mercedes and Cadillac still lead Lincoln. Lexus products covering a broader price bracket, but still giving Lincoln a run for its money. On a good day Lincoln is fourth in the market place...on a bad one fifth.

    The sad truth is that Bentley will end up selling 25% of what Jaguar will...an embarassing truth for Ford Motor---all the more reason why the Big Cat will go as the new cars comes out. The new F Type is a sopp to a future buyer---whomever that might be including Sir Nick Scheele, the former Ford Motor Europe & Glass House director and ex-Jaguar Managing Director. Even if Ripplewood beats out Nasser's J.P. Morgan Bank financed group in their quest for Jaguar/Land Rover, whomever ends up with the cat box at Castle Bromwich will have hard work ahead of them cleaning up the mess left by Ford Motor.

    Yet Lincoln sales are inching up. Town Car's have yet to roll out of Canada, Zephyr/MKZ continues to hold its place, but demand for the new trucks still outstrips expectations. Lincoln car sales versus its truck sales are now nearly equal: 43,896 to 38,416. So we can hear the conversations atop of the Glass House...Lincoln now being as much a truck company as a car company. This reality has to skewer the consideration for investment dollars for the cars.

    If Volvo is sold off, where will Lincoln share its platforms?? PAG being all but dead and buried. They will have to start from scratch again even as the MK S comes on-line from Chicago in the spring of 2008. If MK S does not capture the public fancy, raise expectations for the brand, as well as the bar for build quality, the Mark R is a doomed project, because Lincoln will have little to sell the public in terms of upscale cars to compete against a renascent Mercedes, a hard charging Audi, and BMW. Lexus isn't going to sit still either. And there is spectre of the ultra-luxe Cadillac chassis, plus improved V series to consider.

    So all the marbles are on Mark S. Unless there is a loud and clamerous arguement within the ranks for something beyond and above that car. Mr. Nardelli will be listening hard to Mr. LaSorda at Chrysler---and he, like ARM, will want to drive something beyond the 300: even if a smaller Imperial---and where will this leave Lincoln???

    DouglasR

    (Sources WSJ, FT, Automotive News)
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I am so astonished that the Navigator sales are up over last year, for 2 reasons; one: I HATE the Remington Shaver look, and two: I never see any of the new ones on the road here. From an economic standpoint, I'm happy for Lincoln, for I would love to see this brand resurge as Cadillac has. But personally, other than the Mark LT, there is nothing there for me anymore....
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The Remington shaver stands out. And that is good, given the second generation Gator looked so much like the first you had to own one of the two to remember the differences. The "third generation," given they STILL use the same body, would have the same problem if not for the Remington grill. Which I have grown to like. I just can't warm any longer to the 1998 body, and that tired old greenhouse.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Ford already owns the D3 platform - it's not manufactured by Volvo so there's no problem with the current vehicles. There is a rumor of a RWD D3 being developed (new front clip to accomodate a longitudinal engine) but that one's 50/50 at best.

    What we do know is that Ford of Australia will take the lead in engineering a new RWD V8 capable platform that can be used in both Australia and North America although each continent will do it's own vehicle development, engineering and styling. It's the right thing to do - unfortunately it should have been done 4 years ago. Too bad Mulally was still playing with airplanes back then.
  • akratzerakratzer Member Posts: 4
    I bought a used 1962 Continental 30 years ago and loved it. When the 61 LC was introduced I thought it was the most beautiful sedan ever produced. It's sad that Jaguar hasn't panned out for Ford but the thing is the dealer network is the biggest problem they have with that marque is not the product. It's the dealer network. I live in NW Florida and the nearest dealers are in Mobile, Alabama, Birmingham, Al. and Jacksonville, Fl. My wife has a 2004 XJ8 and it's great. It's comfortable, gets great gas mileage for a large sedan and I love the styling. I'm amused at the automotive journalists who criticize the styling. Duh! The new Mustang looks a lot like the original 65 and I love it too. I may even buy one. If Ford would produce a Continental based on the XJ8 platform that had the retro style of the 61 Continental complete with the center opening rear doors (suicide doors) I'd take out a mortgage on my home to buy one.
  • douglasrdouglasr Member Posts: 191
    "If Ford would produce...the retro style of '61...I'd take out a mortage on my home to buy one..."

    Too Bad Ford Motor executives will likely not see such sentiments. They have washed away the chances for such a car more than once. Jaguar's design director Ian Callum, the man who did the XF, thinks his latest creation is a benchmark design like the original XJ. The public will decide, but I think the car is a cross between a Jaguar and a P1800 Volvo. Not a real Jag at all, but a kitty that has been to the Geisha house. That Mr. Callum is proud of his design is reflected in his remarks about it being a benchmark: "The XF is that car..."

    We suppose Mr. Najjar thought the same of the '58.

    That Lincoln needs a similar benchmark design like the '61 is of no doubt now. As the clock moves closer to midnight at Ford Motor, chips all on the table, it will take a sensational design to bring Lincoln back to the forefront of the market. Tata and Mahindra will fight it out against Sir Nick Scheele and former Land Rover Man Ron Dover for Jaguar/Land Rover. Once again, who will lead the charge at Lincoln?

    Once Jaguar is gone, and likely Volvo as well, Ford Motor will have to face the fact that its top-range car can't remain fifth and fourth in the market and survive for long. Denizens of the '61 design, the Engel look, will have a tougher go of it with rumors of the cancellation of Imperial. Though it is said the car is dead, in other places it is said it is not. It would be better for Lincoln if Imperial were made...because it would challenge them not to lose market-share to the big Imperial [non-permissible content removed] poor-man's Phantom. Chrysler LLC planned 40,000 sales of the car, but 45,000 were more likely with nearly half of them coming from former Lincoln owners. If Messrs. Nardelli, LaSorda, and Schell got brave and built Imperial at Brampton, Lincoln would have no choice but to counter that move and fast.

    I too drove a '62 Lincoln nearly 100,000 miles of the million or so miles I have driven Lincolns. Occassionally I still drive my friend's factory broadcloth equipped dark blue '62---and gauge the popular view. Always positive, always followed by a discourse about what Lincoln SHOULD build.

    Mr. Leland founded his company not on what he "should" have built, but what he was able to benchmark himself as a practitioner of fine machinist and engineering design. It took Edsel to save the firm, retain the quality, and drive the style into Lincoln. A lot of midnight oil got expended in the 1950's keeping Lincoln apace in the market, and a lot of tears too---both for the Mark II and the '58-60 Lincoln. Yet, were it not for the threat of cancellation by Robert S. McNamara, there would have been no '61, no revival, no 'brief shining moment' in Lincoln history---but in its wake a funeral dirge of a boulbous chromium swath of sheet-metal, the would-be '61 from the Ford studio a perfect coffin for the brand.

    I'd mortage my home too if some of the prototypes Lincoln made within the last five years had ever been built. But now Lincoln will ride alone again at the top of the Ford Motor empire. And Mr. Mullaly must come to see that Lincoln must be sold round the world too, as Cadillac, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW have done. Chrysler sales alone have shot up 22% outside America...demand for the traditional Jeep, and the big American sedan still have a place in the hearts and minds of the many and the few outside our shores. His first anniversary is at hand...and Lincoln still remains where he can make his best stand.

    The last Aero executive to run an auto firm, Roy T. Hurley lasted barely two years at Studebaker-Packard as "Manager", managing to kill Packard in Detroit during his tennure and the brand for lack of investment. Money for the last Detroit designed Packard (John Delorean among the engineers begining their careers at Packard to do so) ended up financing the Studebaker Lark. Mr. Mulally talks of "no global luxury car" at Ford Motor, and standardisation of seat frames from 28 to 2, will he also "standardise" the brands out of Ford?---making his automotive products much like classes of riders on Southwest Airlines, A, B, and C? Sale of Jaguar/Land Rover should provide capital directly for Lincoln, as the money to prop-up that cat-box has denuded Lincoln of investment dollars for years.

    Will the next Lincoln become a lark?

    Where will the "Lincoln Road" go---so ably established by Mr. Leland, and retained, enhanced and emboldened by Edsel Ford and Eugene Gregorie, William C. Ford Sr., and John Reinhardt, Elwood Engel, Henry Ford II and Lee Iacocca...among other Ford Motor movers and shakers that have defined the great Lincoln automobiles. Not to mention to unnamed engineers that made it all happen like Elmer Rohn and the brother of artist Jamie Wyeth, the one who labored to make the Mark II a great car, and the other a test driver who died testing its limits. ARM must see that is not just numbers that crunch the pavement, even the most notorious numbers man of all at Ford, McNamara, created one of the finest automobiles ever to grace the Lincoln name.

    If Mr. Mulally's term atop the Glass House is not to become a lark on the winds of automotive history, but a zephyr of a moment, then it is time he take a risk with Lincoln as his compatriots at Chrysler are about to do, not to mention the advance of the nascent competition including the inspiring Mr. Lutz at Cadillac.

    For those who think a Lincoln AUTOMOTIVE revival is not possible...remember that Bentley sold NO cars in America in 1975, not one. Bentley production then represented 3% worldwide that of Rolls-Royce. Launch of the Broadspeed enhanced, David Plastow inspired and developed (under Vickers ltd) Bentley Turbo R signalled the long march back for the Bentley Boys. After a "paltry" investment equivalent to one third what Ford Motor spent on Jaguar (by VWAG), Bentley now has sold 2,357 cars in America in the first half of 2007 alone at the top tier of the market, and its sales in the U.K. at 1,397 are up 32.17% for the year---after successful launch of Bentley GT series and re-investment in Arnage. If the Bentley Boys at Crewe can do that, then the team atop the Glass House should not only be able to beat that, but set its own benchmark for all others to follow. And the second home mortage business should be brisk...

    DouglasR

    (Sources: Car Design News, Automotive News, SMMT/UK)
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Nicely expressed as always, Douglas. Unfortunately I am reminded of the admonishment to not "p_ss into the wind".
    Future Lincolns wont look anything like the '61 or the Continental concept. Nope, they'll look like the mks and mkr, chasing "art and science" with imported science and an Andy-Warholish copy-cat sense of art. The cowcatcher grille is Lincoln's future. Just ask em.
    Ford has pretty efficiently gutted itself of American talent first due to Nasser's purge of "white faces" and then with the "dash for the cash" as career auto designers, engineers et al grabbed Ford buyouts and headed to GM and Nissan to finish their careers.
    Now, Ford uses Japanese, European and Australian chassis for it's "American" automobiles. They say it's due to "globalization of architectures" or whatever is the catchphrase of the month. But truth is, there's no one left here to do much of anything besides marketing. And I think most of us here can agree that Lincoln couldn't market space heaters to Eskimos.
    What is the future of Fomoco? Studebaker is not a real good example because Studebaker actually designed and built innovative American cars for American customers. Is there anything in Ford's lineup today that can be called "innovative" (ala Avanti) or even "American"? (OK I will give you the F-150)
    Ford's best case future is outlined by Peter DiLorenzo this week in his autoextremist blog. I HIGHLY recommend a read of it. THis future? No more Jaguar, no Land Rover, no Volvo and even - no more Mercury. And being a Mercury fan from my youth, I now agree that the brand should die and is in fact being handed a slow death. Look at the product Mercury has - the absolute worst textbook examples of brand engineering to ever come down the pike. What is a Sable that a Taurus isn't? Or a Mariner over an Escape? Who needs that schlock? Where is the modern version of the car that made Mercury a force in the 60-70s - the Cougar? Look how they screwed up the competitor to the Implala SS - the Marauder (a 'fast' Mercury that couldn't keep up with a V6 Accord) and that was done several years AFTER the last Impala SS was built. Is this a company with Studebaker DNA? Nope. Edsel DNA? Now you've got the picture.
    And with Mercury gone - where does that leave Lincoln? What do the dealers do? Can a Lincoln-only dealer survive? We all know the answer to that. So do the dealers become Ford-Lincoln? Now THERE's where I want to buy my prestige automobile. How about Lincoln-Mazda? Same comment. The death of Mercury may be the death-knell for Lincoln as well. Mulally himself sees the need to concentrate on Ford and no need for a global luxury brand.
    If one looks at the current crop of cars from Fomoco, is there any REAL need for Lincoln and Mercury? Do they offer anything that a loaded Ford does not? The answer I'm afraid is a resounding NO. With a quiet retort of slightly different look and feel.
    Let's face it, folks, the mkz and the mkx are overpriced copies of their Ford twins with a bit more chrome and glitz. That's ALL. They, along with their ridiculous names, are the laughing stock of the automotive press. The mkx gets beaten by every "CUV" from here to Seoul (and soon China) in every comparo. The Z competes with what exactly? I think it competes mainly with the Milan. Certainly no one looks at a Z at the same time as a CTS or a 300. Perhaps why I've not seen a comparo with the Z and anything else?
    Now we await the S which is last centurys' volvo S80, the blue light special. Does it look like the '61 Conti? HAHAHA No, it looks like a cross between an Olds Aurora and an Acura. Innovative? Well, it does have adaptive headlights. Oh but wait, so does everyone else, and theirs are already on used cars several years old.
    Then after that, there's supposed to be a mkr. Cowcatcher grille and what exactly? Chassis from a Mustang, via the Australian outback? Who knows? Oh, and quietly, under the radar, Lincoln is preparing it's own version of the Ford Flex. Yep, that's right, Lincoln's new "big thing" is a station wagon. Cant WAIT for that to build new Lincoln 'cred' on the street.
    There may be exceptions, but from what I see on the road, Lincoln has not succeeded in it's goal of lowering the average age of it's buyers from mid-70-ish. Lincoln buyers are still a dying breed and it seems to me, they'll be soon joined in the great junkyard in the sky by their brand of choice.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Good rant. And well-deserved for a company that screwed up badly. However, I LOVE the cow catcher grill. It isn't as good as the Continental concept, but it is distinctive, and high time Lincoln (like the other luxury makers) adopts a recognizable and consistent grill theme. I certainly prefer it to the new (and consistent) Audi grill. It has more grace anyway than Audi. But even at that, the Audi gaping yaw has helped sales and image.

    Bigger grills are "in" whether you look at the Chrysler 300, the Jaguar XF, Buick, Bentley, MINI, Mitsubishi Lancer, SAAB 9-3, etc. They have always had a place on luxury cars. It reflects Lincoln heritage too, which they need to do as well. I know a grill won't make a good car, but a good car can get better known with a distinctive grill. The 41 Lincoln would not have been nearly as much a presence without that grill. OK, I beat that to death...
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    To me the mkr grille is a cross between an old steam locomotive and a 60s Pontiac. Lincoln heritage? Bah.

    But really, the looks of the mkr grille are only a fly on the butt of the problems facing Lincoln.

    Where would Lincoln be today if SOMEONE there had the b_lls to say - We're building this Continental concept AND this Mark 9 hardtop convertible? If those 2 vehicles were in the showroom today (and done RIGHT), Lincoln would have some juice and not be the total laughing stock it is now. I cannot read any auto-mag or blog articles that mention Lincoln that have a single positive thing to say about the brand in general or the cars in particular. As someone who presently owns 2 Lincolns, I'm disgusted and almost ashamed in some ways. Well, at least I own one of the best Lincolns ever designed - the LS. Lincoln will NEVER build a car like it again and I'm unlikely to drive a Lincoln again when I replace these vehicles. Wife loved the LS, laughs at Lincolns now and salivates over Infiniti. There's one example of a luxury vehicle maker with some juice, cred AND products. I'll be pushing her to consider the CTS instead of the G37 but price and gas mileage will be the decider. Anything 'mk' on the horizon for us? No chance. Almost considered the Montego as a family car but will not buy a car named Sable. Just won't. Taurus might have had SOME name-recognition, but Sable? That's a furry rodent AFAIC.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Lincoln never did design the LS Jaguar did.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Oh, and speaking of Jaguar, the wraps are finally off the XF and the first guy to comment on it:
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=5002
    has a pretty negative opinion of what can be seen in pictures anyway.
    The funniest thing to me? Jaguar (undoubtedly spurred on by Ford) eschews sporty transmission interfaces as does, say, the mk-anything with it's D-L shift gate. The Jaguar version? D-S (for what, Slow?) Not only that, there isnt even a lever to control the gears, it's a freaking dial like a radio tuner. Brilliant. Have a look at the blog yourselves if u doubt me. A dial.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Its the S-Type platform with the 3.9 AJ-V8 from Jaguar. The automatic transmission was the same IIRC and from underneath it was hard to tell them apart. Later on the S-type got 6 speed auto which I assume is the same ZF unit that the XJ and XK use.

    I worked on both S-Types and LS cars and they are very similar cars to work on.

    Lincoln did their own styling for the LS, which I actually like over the S-type, but the platforms were the same. Very different suspensions on the two cars IIRC.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_LS

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_DEW_platform

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_S-Type
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Buick and Lexus had a baby
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    If they had just left the headlights the same I would have been ok with it. The roof line, grill, stance etc. I knew they would have to change to fit crash test standards and practicality.

    The headlights didn't need to be changed though and they are no good. They aren't horrible but they aren't good either.

    We are way off-topic now though.

    Lincoln is last and it needs a revamp program twice the size of Caddies in order to get back on track. Does Ford have the capital to do that?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The DEW98 platform was jointly designed and each team did their own styling. Even the 3.9L engines had different parts and different displacements (3.9L vs 4.0 due to a 1mm difference in stroke).

    The MKS is as close to an Infiniti as any American car company has gotten and will likely get anytime soon. And it comes with SelectShift. Yes, it's AWD using a transverse engine but it should offer close to 300 hp with AWD and a 350+ hp option with the twinforce 3.5 or 3.7L.

    The MKS and other interim vehicles will support Lincoln until they can get the all new RWD platform jointly developed with Ford Australia. That's when you'll see a true LS successor.

    We all know that Ford screwed up royally with Lincoln the last 6-7 years. No need to keep repeating it over and over.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Thanks for chiming in, especially with the DEW 98 info that you and I already know, but b-r needs to get with.

    I agree wit you that we all know ... But it bears repeating so it is not repeated.

    As for mks being anything like an Infiniti, gotta diverge from you there. The G35 (to be G37 in 2008) makes 306hp (more in 2008) and powers the REAR wheels, is available with a MANUAL transmission and is priced about same as mkz. mks will be fwd, no manual option, under 306hp and cost probably at LEAST $10,000 more than the infiniti.

    No, it's Cadillac that competes with Infiniti, certainly not the mks. And Caddy competes NOW, not a year or more from now. Chrysler too with the 300, a very very bold and successful car. No manual, but Hemi and select shift.

    As for an LS successor, there will never be one. Never. Lincoln is a blue-hair car again for all time. The dealers cannot and willnot sell sporty cars with manual transmissions. The r will be a badge-engineered Falcon-Mustang, rather than a modified Jaguar. I will bet the bank right now there will be no manual transmission available in the r. And it will look like a Pontiac-steam engine. Sorry, I just dont see it happening to the good.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    No doubt, and you make good points. But I will repeat, I like the Pontiac steam engine look. It is bold and looks a bit menacing as well. However, you are right that the car underneath is unlikely to be competitive, as the stuff they are shooting at is already here and the target keeps moving. But at least the car won't look as bland as the Em Kay Zee...
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Lincoln is a blue-hair car again for all time. The dealers cannot and willnot sell sporty cars with manual transmissions.

    Aside from the V6 LS, what was the last Lincoln to have a manual transmission? Lincolns have always been stodgy blue-hair cars.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    You may like the steaming Pontiac look now, but wait til it gets out of the concept stage. Shee the Jag XF pix I cited above for an example. We all know the look will be toned down for "mass appeal"

    As for the mkz, I actually like the looks of it. But I've got 20 years or more before I'm in the demographic for it.

    And while I'm ranting, one more thing - why should we 'trust' Lincoln to do anything right in the future? The only thing they've done right in the last decade or more is the LS, and they couldnt or wouldnt make a leap to v2 with it like Caddy did with the CTS. Remember, there was no CTS when the LS was released. Now the CTS is world clss and the LS is history, ignored almost compltely for its 7 year run. Yet still outsold the mkz despite costing lots more. Progress? U be the judge.

    And why trust a car company that just throws badge-engineered slop against the wall as stop gap mesures instead of designing competitive vehicles. And I'm talking here about:
    Blackwood (HAHA.)
    zephyr (anyone who bought one of these should sue Lincoln)
    Aviator (reduce Navigator design drawings by 20% and try to remember not to put the Explorer drivertrain in at the factory. Turned out to be one of the WORST vehicles in history in terms of reliability. And to think they almost fooled me into buying one.)
    mkx - fancy edge for 10K more. Can't stop on a thousand dimes. Smaller than GM competitors, seats 2 or 3 less AND gets worse gas mileage.

    I'm just salivating to see the wunderbar station wagon on the way. Hello, Lincoln? Not many 70 year olds need beach wagons anymore...
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    The Jaguar version? D-S (for what, Slow?) Not only that, there isnt even a lever to control the gears, it's a freaking dial like a radio tuner.

    Jeyhoe, I presume you are kidding but others may not realize that the "S" is for "sequential" and activates the steering wheel paddle shifters. While the dial is a bit unusual to say the least, the ZF transmission is a good one and it is claimed that in the XF, the shifts are even quicker than in the XK. I have read nothing but positive reviews on the transmission operation of the XK. Thank goodness the J-gate is dead and buried.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    As for the mkz, I actually like the looks of it. So ya like bland...not that there is anything wrong with that. :P
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    No, I wasnt kidding, just mistaken I guess. Took the TTAC guy's word for no manumatic. If you're right and S means steering wheel paddle shifters, well that's a good thing. Too bad the 'L' in the Lincolns doesn't mean 'L'eg clutch shifters.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    That ZF tranny is amazing. It goes in all the real jags now, many BMWs, most Land Rovers, Aston Martins, and probably a couple I have forgotten.

    The Truth About Cars people in general don't know what they are talking about. Most of the reviews I read there are full of factual mistakes.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    "As for an LS successor, there will never be one. Never. Lincoln is a blue-hair car again for all time. The dealers cannot and willnot sell sporty cars with manual transmissions."

    I couldn't agree more, nor could I feel worse about it. I returned a few weeks ago from a 7500-mile drive in my '00 LS (with a manual) that had 112K miles on it when I left & over 120K miles on it today, after a few more weeks of commuting.

    This has been my daily driver for over seven years, and the longer I drive it, the better I like it. I set off for Alaska in the thing & didn't have one single problem -- the car & I bonded yet again. I've enjoyed many wonderful drives in it.

    I'd hoped to be able to buy another when I tired of this one, but it'll never happen. I follow this thread to get some sort of feel for those who still think Lincoln has any chance at all of surviving.

    It's interesting.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    ". . .a car company that just throws badge-engineered slop against the wall. . ."

    Thanks for an excellent turn of phrase. I take pleasure from using words effectively, and it appears you do as well.

    I've pointed out more than once that the G & CTS didn't exist when the LS was introduced & for the first couple of years after. It had the field to itself, and yet was still able to piss the concept, the vehicle & the future of Lincoln away.

    Pity.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Yep.

    My 01 Manual LS has 87K on it. Wife is the one using it as a daily driver last couple years. She was as big an advocate of getting the 5speed over the slush-box as I was. She loves the car and drives it like it should be driven but has become envious of those Infinitis she sees. I like the M myself. Will nevr own one though - out of my league. At least the V8 is, and that's what I'd want.

    I dont know what I'll do after the LS is gone. Actually thinking about driving a V6 manual Accord. Nice car for the $$$s.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    The guy that wrote that article about the XF was a complete idiot. Criticizing the AJ V8 because it's HP is less than some sixes doesn't begin to tell the story. The AJ V8 is a smooth jewel with a broad torque band, ability to rev, and is as refined as any engine ever built. I would rather have one with 100,000 miles on it than a brand new higher HP V6. Besides the supercharged version makes 420 HP and is a torque monster as well.

    I mentioned the "S" stands for sequential. All of the press is now saying it stands for sport. My dealer gave me a photocopy of an internal document about the XF months ago and it referred to the "S" as meaning seqential shift. Apparently, they have decided that "sport" is more customer friendly. In any case, it enables the paddle shifters on the steering wheel.

    Sorry to get off topic - back to Lincoln...
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    Hey, Bruce, I think u have a strong case there about the TTAC article. I reread it and came away with an impression similar to yours. Sometimes those writers care more about alliteration than automobile nation.

    Right, who cares if it's a V6 or a V8? ANd the Jag engine is a great one, true. Almost as good as the Duratec in my 5 speed LS:>)

    And his other criticisms were not particularly well thought either. I do agree with one point though - the F needed to be a home run and it sure seems like it's a triple at best to me. Darn good, but maybe one run short of tying or winning. A dial? I dunno bout that one. The door handle's not flush? - meh! A 420hp Supercharged engine? Yikes! Gotta love that. How much is this thing supposed to cost with the 300hp AJ in it?
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    C & D is estimating $58K and MT is saying $56 - but the SV8 (420 HP) is about 10 grand more. That presents a problem for me. I hate the thought of spending that much for a car.

    Also, call me crazy but a vehicle's parent company and their history is important to me. With Jag, I love their British heritage and Ford's ownership but the future is just too murky for me.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The Mark LT had been scheduled for a major face-lift in fall 2009, but suppliers say the makeover has been canceled."

    Inside Line
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    RIP...it was a fake Lincoln anyway...
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    ". . .a fake Lincoln. . ."

    What, these days, constitutes a "real" Lincoln?

    I believe I'm driving one, but it's extinct.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Thank goodness...
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    Another example of Ford's general incompetence.

    Remember when the Five Hundred was introduced, and all the Ford apologists tried to tell everyone their committee decided consumers don't actually want either styling or power?

    Isn't the Mark LT another chapter in the Mercury Maruder, Ford Thunderbird, Lincoln Blackwood story all over again?

    There IS a market for these vehicles, but rather than make a strong commitment to the product, they let the committees and accountants make the product so weak, it's DOA. After a year or two of adding minor features, the vehicle dies an early death.

    Really though, they didn't die, they were killed by incompetence. -- More manslaughter than murder.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    It was either drop it or change the name to MKLT.

    Another terrible waste of the precious time of engineers and designers. More badge-engineered slop -this time didnt stick to the wall very long.

    They probably need all those engineers etc to finish badge-engineering the Lincoln 'people-mover' that no blue hair will go near. My wife saw a picture of the flex the other day and her predicition is big flop. Mine too to tell the truth. Who's gonna buy that thing? Prolly will cannabilize other Ford products: Edge, Explorer, expedition, freestyle before winning any converts. That they're making a Lincoln one of these just blows my mind and I wanna scream WHY?????
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    The last "real" Lincolns were in the 60's.
    That is the problem.
    As long as all you are going to do is badge engineer,you don't give discerning buyers a reason to buy your product.
    GM learned that lesson w/ Caddy.
    CTS and STS are unique offerings.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    First, you have to decide what lincoln really is.
    When I think Lincoln, I think of big comfortable lux sedans.
    Not trucks, not "people movers"

    The concept Continental would have been PERFECT.
    Too bad Ford didn't have the balls to build it.
    All those people driving Chrysler 300's would be in Lincolns.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    "GM learned that lesson w/ Caddy.
    CTS and STS are unique offerings."

    Yeah, several of us thought the LS was Lincoln's "unique offering," in '99, 3-4 years before Caddy introduced the CTS.

    The ball wasn't so much dropped as shot at high velocity down the sewer. In any event, here we are, eight years on.

    I think Lincoln in doomed, but would be moderately pleased to be shown to be wrong.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Mark LT was nothing more than a way to give the Lincoln dealers more vehicles to sell. It cost almost nothing to produce and probably made $10K profit on each one. It would have to be redone to go along with the 2009 F150 update and now that the MKZ, MKX are out and the MKS coming next summer they don't really need it.

    Stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Member Posts: 490
    With all due respect, and there is a lot due you, this truck thing is another example of badge-engineered slop. You call it 'nothing more than a way to give Lincoln ... more .. to sell', I call it badge-engineered slop. Other recent examples: Aviator and Zephyr. In none of these 3 cases was a proper job of product development done before the car was released in order that the money start flowing in. Was any thouight given to what the customer might need or want? Very little seems to me. THe only thought was - here's another way to make some easy money. So what if we alienate customers. At least this way we HAVE customers.
    Meantime across town, Cadillac developed the CTS into world class, developed their pickup truck into a thing of beauty and threw NO badge-engineered slop against the wall as a stopgap measure.
    Now, which is the proper way to do business you tell me?
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