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I too had a RWD vehicle (86 Supra) and never had any problems in snowy conditions. However, it was a manual and I knew how to drive it in bad conditions...SENSIBLY!!!
For some, AWD replaces common sensibility.
Another thing that folks really forget about too is the tires they have on their vehicle makes all the difference.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
This is one place I feel like Honda has the idea NAILED. There is a simple VSA defeat switch in all of their cars equipped with the system. It resets every time the car is switched off, then back on, meaning you must turn it off for each trip (a good idea to have it default to "ON" but with the ability to turn it off in no-time).
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I'm thinking the earlier post had it right when talking about the lawyers doing things.
this is not likely cost cutting but much more likely Toyota's product liability lawyers talking - a corollary of McDonalds serving hot coffee that is actually hot. If you read your Avalon manual carefully you will find out that putting a real beverage in your real beverage holders is strictly prohibited by those same silly lawyers.
That gentleman from NYC who needs his AWD for the rare 10" snowstorm will probably be stranded anyway, because the ground clearance on most cars does not exceed 6 or 7 inches; hence, he's unable to get down to solid ground, anyway. He's just plowing snow with his front bumper like the rest of us. In a truck with more clearance it makes more sense, especially compared to RWD only.
Fact is, I'd take FWD with good winter tires over an AWD car with all season tires, and in my experience, a rear wheel drive car with close to 50-50 weight distribution and good ( and usually narrower ) winter tires and traction control does pretty good in snow also.
I don't know where you are located, but if you have ever driven a 4WD car in snow,you would definitely notice the difference.
IMO the biggest problem with 4 wheels driving is that you must be on the gas to get any benefit. Yeah, it's a bit better for acceleration, but once you're underway and encounter a sliding problem, you usually want or need to slow down - not speed up. The added weight of the 4WD then becomes a detriment. The ease of acceleration also gives the driver a false sense of the traction available: all the 4WD drive trucks and SUVs in the freeway medians and ditches during winter conditions support that argument.
Good winter tires work on acceleration, handling, and braking.
Used to use 4 studded tires on my Hyundai XG, which then had MUCH more traction than the Explorer without studded tires, but just decided last winter to change the studs to the Explorer for incredible traction, when needed. Stopping and turning are now incredible, along with very easy acceleration. The only problem is watching out the rear view mirror for other vehicles w/o studs which cannot come close to matching the stopping distance with studs.
Learned a long time ago, if it ices; stay home! If it snows, FWD in my RAV4 Camry, Taurus, etc. did well.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=122983#2
Even though this article talks about Euro Teana, or infinity, on another site , sources close to Nissan are saying that next Generation Maxima will be close in design to M-B CLS. In my opinion this car is too Avalonish
That's not neccesarily a bad thing! You are right, the shape is almost identical.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Most impressive for sitting and size was the Buick Lucerne, even better than the Avalon. Couldn't get the doors on the Avalons dash to open. No Chevys around for some reason.
Of course, these were two to five minutes per car just sitting.
http://www.strategicvision.com/press_release.php?pr=28
" ... Hyundai earned two Total Value wins with the Hyundai Azera and Santa Fe. Although the Hyundai brand name currently does not carry the same level of reassurance that more established brands do, the Azera and Santa Fe both led their segments by providing products high in perceived quality, providing exceptional features, and being exceptionally priced – all supported with Hyundai’s warranty ..."
A 2007 Hyundai Azera with the "04 option group ultimate package" and "floor mats" has an MSRP of $30,675, an invoice of $28,473 and a TMV of $27,275.
QUESTION: ---- You can purchase a XLE V6 Toyota Camry for almost the same amount and have a better resale value after three (3) years of ownership! ------ Why purchase the Azera????? Educate me!!!!!!
Best regards. ------ Dwayne :shades: :confuse:
1. Since the Azera has not been out for 3 years, the resale is unknown.
2. You have a lot more car for those 3 years.
3. The Camry has a boil on it's nose.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The Azera doesn't end up with about $1500-1900 pack on the purchase like the local dealer tries to implement. E.g., $600 document fee and the salesman said $20 is document the other $580 is for unwrapping the car.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You said it best, you can get an Azera Ltd w/Ultimate package (which gives you everything) for the same price that would pay for a Camry XLE. Question...what features come standard at that price for the Camry? However, you're comparing a mid-size car to a large car, so it's almost an apples vs. oranges comparison. I'd have been more impressed if you said you could get a fully loaded Avalon for the same price as the fully loaded Azera...then you would be on to something!
The Azera is more car for the money paid. As far as resale value, one poster took a bath by getting rid of his Azera after a few weeks. The difference between what he paid for it and what they gave him for trade came up to about 25%. Almost any car loses 20% the moment it's driven off the lot, so it's not that far off.
If the Azera, and Hyundai, continues to do as well as it has thus far, your thinking on resale value could be wrong. The resale value on Hyundai products has already improved a great deal starting with the '02 model year. I'm not saying it's great...just improved. However, with the Azera, Veracruz, the new Sonata ('06) and the upcoming Genesis...I think you'll be seeing resale values going up and maybe coming close to those of Toyota and Honda. Only time will tell.
And neither do the vast majority of Camry's. We have three 07s at work (4 cyls) for the salesmen that have nothing short of flawless (all near 20K miles) and a friend's 07 XLE V6 is perfect as well. How can you judge a car by your local dealers "add ons". I guess it depends on the region but I know for a fact that two of the local Yota dealers don't add on anything. FWIW I am in South Jersey near Philly.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
However, one issue that I've heard has been an issue for Toyota is the fit and finish of all the Camries built here in the U.S. Personally, I don't know if they just build the V6 model here or if they build both. If both are built here, then that would cover both models.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
This question will quickly answer itself.
The real comparison, perhaps, is that Azera Ltd. with perhaps the Avalon XLS, a car that will sticker at 33-34k but probably still cost $4-5 k more to actually drive off the lot. The bottom line, of course, is if that Avalon figures to still be worth that much more than the same 3 year old Azera, the Avalon does not in effect cost any more to own.
Are you a psychic?
I have owned Azera for 18 month and spent $80 for 3 oil change. How about Avalon?
I own a 2005 Honda Accord LX, a 2007 Camry LE, and a 2006 Hyundai Elantra GLS. Which one has been more reliable so far - the Elantra hands down. I'm one of the few posters here on Edmunds that actually currently own one of all three brands at the same time, and my experience is based on objective analysis, not hyperbole or puffery. In retrospect, I "wished" I had purchased a Sonata or Azera instead of the Camry. I've experienced the DBW problem, the transmission problem, and several build-quality issues, especially interior trim, with the Camry. Surprised, yes - disappointed, yes - this will be my last Toyota.
When the time came for me to upgrade to a larger sedan due to my growing family. I didn't hesitate to give the '06 Sonata a nod, but shortly after...Hyundai dropped the Azera and the lovefest began. I took an hour long test drive with my family in tow and we all fell in love with the car. I've had my Azera Ltd w/premium package for just over 1.5 years with just over 40k miles and in that time the only things that have been addressed is the airbag light that came on (faulty seatbelt sensor), the chipping on the faux woodgrain on the steering wheel and the sun roof not seating properly when closed.
In all...I am VERY pleased with my Azera. As much as I enjoyed my previous Toyotas, I am now a loyal Hyundai owner.
Oil changes!? Only had to take your Azera in for oil changes for 18 months? Big deal, something you should expect from any car - my Avalon BTW with 60k, 2 1/2 years, and only oil changes as well. I use synthetic only though, so therefore my 12 oil changes (or so) cost a bit more than your $80 especially since the 2GR engine uses 6 1/2 qts of the stuff!
The Azera uses 6 qts of oil and I use synthetic oil as well, what's your point? I don't know where the $80 figure comes in, but I've done 7 oil changes at roughly $38 ($27 for 6 qts. Castrol Syntec and $11 for the filter) which adds up to $266. I also changed my brake pads (front and back) for about $100 (changed them myself). So...in just over my 1.5 years of ownership...I've spent $366 in maintenance.
I guess we will have to see the effect of the quality issues (which I still contend is just a blip) will have Toyota offering large rebates in order to sell the Camry. If that happens resale value will start to fall as well.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Again, Toyota and Honda have a huge head start on Hyundai, but because the blueprint is laid out, Hyundai has a learning tool to follow. I see them making great strides in the next few years and surprising a lot of folks. The Azera is a start.
I would think that any incentives that knock off the sale price of the car would close the gap between purchase price and resale value later on down the road.
I mean...if you have to identical models bought at the same time, but driver 1 paid $27K and driver 2 paid $24K (for whatever reason). Now lets say 3 years have passed and both cars are in the same condition and have the same mileage and they go to trade them in. If the resale value for that particular model is $19K. Driver 1 suffers a greater loss than driver 2.
Now...this may be a bit broad, but I did a comparison using Edmunds used car research. I used a 2006 Azera Limited and a 2006 Avalon Touring. Under both I checked all the available options. I selected black as the color, input 40K miles under mileage and selected Outstanding as the condition of the cars. Now...from what I know when I was doing my research when I shopped my Azera, an Avalon Touring (fully loaded) priced out at about $34K. The Azera Limited w/Ultimate package (fully loaded) priced out at about $27K. Now please be mindful that these numbers reflect prices and values in MY area. The numbers will be a little different for those in different areas. This is just a representation.
Here are the numbers that Edmunds shot back for each one.
Avalon Touring:
Trade-in Value - $24K
Private Sale Value - $26K
Retail Value - $28K
Azera Limited:
Trade-in Value - $18K
Private Sale Value - $19K
Retail Value - $21K
According to my math, both cars seem to do just as well as the other when it comes to resale value after almost 2 years. Gotta remember, the Avalon starts out at a higher price, so the resale will be at a higher price.
Wow...this really opened MY eyes after doing this! :surprise:
let's think about this awhile. My contention is that the $19k must also go down when the purchase price goes down $3k and probably a similar amount. Why is this? How about because all resale values are relative to purchase price at any given moment. If magically the Avalon XLS starts selling for that same $27k that supposedly you can get an Azera ltd for it would be bad news for Avalon resale values. Look at what happened to Ford 500 resale values the instant that they started floating $6k+ discounts on the thing so they could clear the lots for the Taurus. So, bottom line - it is better for you folks that spent the money on an Azera that it does develop some sort of quality reputation AND Hyundai can finally command a little more money for them because of that. The first scenario may indeed be happening, the second one IMO is still a ways off - that 'Korean car' perception that I think you'll agree is becoming more and more unfair.
using your examples relative to your $34k for that Touring (may be high mine was right at $30k 2 years ago) and the $27k for the Azera Limited, both cars have lost the same $6k of value over your time frame - meaning, of course, they both effectively cost the same to drive and that the Avalon is not necessarily a more expensive car to own...