As was already mentioned, you're missing the point. And maybe a lot people are. Maybe that's why we haven't seen any of those commercials lately -- comparing Hyundais to expensive luxury cars. I can understand how people could completely miss the point, as you have.
Maybe repetition is the charm, since I know others have cleared up this issue at least a couple times already in these forums. Again, Hyundai was not trying to get BMW and Lexus shoppers to spend 1/2 as much on a Hyundai. Instead, they were showing people who can only afford $20,000 to $30,000 cars that they can have a powerful, roomy, reliable, well-built car that has actually has some of the nice qualities of cars that cost twice as much. That was the whole point.
You should also take a look at the clip of the unveiling of the Genesis at the 2008 NAIAS a couple weeks ago, in which the purpose and position of the car in the market is explained. The Genesis is primarily aimed at people who can not afford a premium luxury car (Lexus GS, Infiniti M, BMW 5, Mercedes E), but at the same time want a premium luxury driving experience.
There will also be the people who have money and like to consider themselves "smart shoppers," who might actually choose a Genesis over a more expensive car, and save $10,000 to $20,000 in the process while still getting many of the same luxury and performance qualities of the more expensive cars.
Don't worry, thoguh -- most of the Lexus and Infiniti drivers will stick with their Lexuses and Infinitis. Only a minority of them will test drive a Genesis.
Hyundai has done both sides of it, actually - Sonata vs. Camry/Accord, Sonata vs. 5 Series, for example. We should see more when the facelift Sonata arrives with a revised interior and hp/FE bump, among other improvements.
As explained above, the Sonata vs. 5er ads and other variations from last spring was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. If you took them literally, then you missed the point..
I guess we are getting off topic here but maybe you should check out Edmunds' long term test blogs. They have just acquired a Veracruz and one of the editors commented that it's not as nice as the RX.
Unless I am not reading the same article as you did, nowhere it was commented the Veracruz is not as nice as the RX. As a matter of fact, the RX never was mentioned in the article. To my understanding, this was written as an initial impression of a long-term test, and objectively, it's too early to render any verdict yet. That said, many people, having logged sufficient miles in the Veracruz, know exactly how the Veraruz fared, as are with any other tested vehicles.
Smaller in terms of exterior dimensions. The interior dimensions (and trunk) aka usable space puts the Sonata in the large car category; mid-size for the Maxima.
You are still funny!!! I hate to say it, but the Azera is the closest competitor to the Avalon. The Lucerne and Taurus can't hold a candle to the Azera. Again, the Azera isn't being directly compared to a 7-Series...they simply said it has more interior room than a 7...SHEESH!!! So I guess if Hyundai said that the Azera sports the same tires that come standard on a Bently...then they would be comparing the Azera to a Bentley, right? LMAO You guys...
Like I said before, check the Car & Driver comparo...they didn't go out on a limb and say the Veracruz was better thant he RX, they simply stated that if you are looking at the RX, but you wanna save some money...the Veracruz is worth a look. The admit that there are a few things you can get with the RX that you can't on the Veracruz, but the same was true in reverse as well. Go ahead, go read the article.
Hyundai does seem to think they are perhaps - something more than they are.
Really??? Pray tell, just what might that be, Captain?
I tell you, the better that Hyundai gets...the more nervous it makes those that prefer Toyota, Honda and Nissan. When Hyundai was pure crap, nobody could care less other than making Hyundai vehicles the butt of jokes. Now that their vehicles are vastly improved, folks aren't joking about them, but they are trying to find ways to knock 'em...anything they can find. "Their not crap now, but they're not as good as... " Captain, you talk out the side of your neck half the time. In one breath you can say the Azera is a good car, but then turn around and say it's not worthy competition for the Avalon or Maxima. The only competition the Azera has IS the Avalon and Maxima. No American car (with a V-6) in it's class can hold a candle to it. By default, the Azera's competition is the Avalon and Maxima.
The fact that Hyundai dare goes head to head with Avalon and Maxima...that means, "Hyundai does seem to think they are perhaps - something more than they are."??? Oh...I'm sorry, just because they make a statement that the Azera has more interior space than a 7-Series...they're over-achievers, right? LMAO Wait a minute, the Sonata having more power than a 5-Series. Yeah, I can see how that says Hyundai is better than BMW. Wake up and smell the coffee. Hyundai is doing nothing but making statements that are true.
If you truly believe that those ads are saying that Hyundai is better than BMW, Lexus or any other car used in comparison...maybe you're not as much a car nut as you think. Oh wait a minute, you CAN still be a car nut...just one that's not open minded and biased against most anything non-Toyota. I'm starting to wonder if you were a Toyota employee at one point in your life
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...but a minivan isn't a sedan!!! At least they are comparing the interior space of one large vehicle to another. Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! :P
Car & Driver mag.(March 08) just tested 7 family sized cars and the Hyundia Sonata with a 4 cyl. engine beat out the Camry, Fusion,and Avenger. The final results for general vehicle Sonata and Accord tied for top ratings (things that most people look for) Not bad results for a car mfg..
Pray tell, just what might that be, Captain? I'm sorry but there is nothing statistically or historically significant that confrims they really make great cars YET . 4 or 5 years of making generally 'average' cars does not doesn't quite cut it. The same could have been said about the Japan 3 circa 1980 - and it then took them another 10 or 15 years to get where they are. And then they seem to want to be considered in the same category as some of the best cars ever made and ones that have been for a quarter of a century or more? As I said earlier - outrageous claims. There really is nothing YET that can really substantiated that confirms that Hyundai has magically turned some sort of corner quality wise and certainly reputation wise. This may happen with time - talk to me 5 or 10 years from now. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was T, H, & N. How do we know when this has happened? Probably when Hyundai vehicles are sold on some basis other than price..Because the Azera (and most of the rest of the product line) is sold because it is 'cheap' or discounted heavily, the cars it is 'competitive' with will remain those that occupy the same market position. Things like Buicks and Fords. If you were to ask a few thousand random people on the street to give you a one word opinion of Hyundai - what do you honestly think it would be? Then do the same for some of those 'Japanese' brands....
If you want to be respected for being technically observant...
I understand a typo here and there from time to time, but for goodness sake...spell check does exist.
Am I really being agressive or is it that you're not used to having fact shoved back in your face? Relax??? I am the relaxed one here...it's the Toyota & Nissan owners that seem to be up in arms because of lil ol Hyundai! LOL
I have said...vastly improved and if you go back to Hyundai's beginnings and compare their cars then to their cars now...vastly is a very good adjective to use here. Wait a minute...Toyota went through the same thing (which a great many people conveniently forgot or simply don't know). I'm glad you seem to be one that realizes that, but I think even you are afraid to admit that Hyundai seems to have turned the corner. I mean...it happened for Honda, Toytoa and Nissan, so why can't it happen for Hyundai? Fact is...Hyundai has a blue print to follow by the other three already having paved the way...why is it far fetched to blieve that they "got it" in a faster amount of time than the other ones did?
Honestly, I don't think you follow Hyundai at all if you can make a statement that Hyundai hasn't gotten better in terms of quality or reputation. Yeah, you can walk the streets and ask random folks their opinion of Hyundai and they'll give you and answer based on what they think they know. However...if you were to poll 100 current Hyundai owners...I think you'll get something different than you think or expect.
What exaclty is "OUTRAGEOUS"??? That Hyundai vehicles have improved? That they are better than they've ever been? I think what's scaring you pro-Toytoa/Nissan types is that the Hyundai turn-around is seemingly over-night. In actuality...it isn't. It's been steadily ongoing, but it wasn't noticeable until they starting putting out vehicles that were more visually appealing: i.e. 2002 Sonata. You see...when Hyundai vehicles were less than visually appealing, nobody paid attention, but when they started making cars that made others take notice and actually look at them...all the sudden they were doing something.
I'm sorry but there is nothing statistically or historically significant that confrims they really make great cars YET......There really is nothing YET that can really substantiated that confirms that Hyundai has magically turned some sort of corner quality wise and certainly reputation wise......This may happen with time - talk to me 5 or 10 years from now. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was T, H, & N......Because the Azera (and most of the rest of the product line) is sold because it is 'cheap' or discounted heavily, the cars it is 'competitive' with will remain those that occupy the same market position......If you were to ask a few thousand random people on the street to give you a one word opinion of Hyundai - what do you honestly think it would be?
Perception takes a long time to change. The quality is already there, whether you want to believe it or not. Of course the reputation isn't at the level of the Japanese cars yet. That will take a few more years. Hyundai wasn't built in a day either. It took them 15 years to start building all-around high quality vehicles. Sure, they evolved faster than the Japanese cars, and that's due to all the technology that is available today. Almost every industry is advancing more quickly today compared to 20, 30, 40 years ago.
Many of us will be getting great cars and saving thousands of dollars for a few more years. Almost makes me wish nobody would consider Hyundai, just to keep their prices low. But that would be selfish.
Ahhh that would be too easy for your cause. Why -- because you know that many people have much more than one word to say about Hyundai. Words like "they've come a long way" and "the newer ones look really nice" and "my neighbor got one and it's as quiet and smooth as my Lexus!" etc etc.
Captian, just give it a rest already. Toyota won't be going out of business anytime in the next century. You have nothing to worry about.
Many times I agree with you captain, but this isn't one. I bought a 2002 XG350L and while the styling was old school (although I personally liked it) the quality was definitely there for me. When I traded it in 06, with over 75,000 miles, the biggest repair/warranty item I ever had, was to replace one headlight bulb. Everything else worked perfectly as it did on the day I got it, from the dealer, its auto return memory seats, to the auto down in reverse mirrors, to heated seats, etc. I might agree Hyundai does not make GREAT cars, but then I wouldn't put the Avalon in that class either (and I had one of those as well). Great is subjective. If you mean by great that a car is reliable and a strong value for its cost, then maybe both the Azera and Avalon are close to being there.
From at least 2002 on, I would say Hyundai has proven itself to be building reliable, bang for the buck, value cars, that have far more features (even if not bleeding edge), that cars costing several thousand more. Not only has the average mpg gone up from my XG at around 21.5 to better than 24 in my Azera, but clearly the power is way up as well.
When I use the term value, I mean it in the sense that you "get what you pay for" and a little bit more in achieving what it was designed to do. This would include cars like the Z06 vette, Mazdaspeed 3, Subaru WRX STI, Porsche 911 Turbo, Honda Oddessy, and in the past, I would include some Camry's and Accord's
The problem, as I've stated in the past, is that anyone that has anything negative to say about Hyundai vehicles themselves...haven't actually driven one, sat in one or owned one. Does the company itself have some issues...certainly it does. I hate to say it, the problems that the company is having isn't helping the image of the vehicles, but...if one were to actually take the time to go and physically look at an Azera, Sonata or what have you...actually spend some time with it and drive it, their perception of the cars would most likely change.
Almost everyone that posts in this forum that has something negative to say about about the Azera (please notice I said almost) hasn't even taken one for a test drive. They are basing their opinions on stuff that they've read or heard in the media. If you actually take the time to read the posts of those of us that own Azeras, you will see that while we have said it's a very good car...none of us have said it's the greatest car on earth or that it's the best thing since sliced bread. It's just that we have the insight of knowing first hand, the type of vehicle the Azera actually is. Does the car have flaws, indeed. Are these flaws the type that make one regret purchasing one? In most cases, I think I can say the answer is, no. Can this be said of Hyundai vehicles 10 years ago? I think we can all agree that the answer would be no on that.
Captain...please understand that the Avalon is a very solid car because it has a well established history. The fact that it's a good history only helped its cause when they redesigned it. Was the very first Avalon a home-run hit out the park? I really don't think so. However, it quickly built a following and the current Avalon has that benefit. The Azera on the other hand...well, it was a brand spaking new offering in 2006. The only history anyone could bank on was the success of the '02 Sonata (which took a while to pick up) and then the development of the Tucson as well. You still have folks that look at Hyundai with a historical perspective and haven't seen what the company has been doing.
Hyundai has finally learned the formula for creating cars that fit their niche (seemingly), now they just need to learn how to market them as well as change public opinion as well. Right now, the only way one can change their opinion is to spend some time with an actual Hyundai vehicle. I'm not saying they'll walk away, born again, but I'll be doggoned if they won't really consider Hyundai as an option the next time they are shopping a car and Hyundai has one that fits what they're looking for.
Personally...in terms of sales, the Azera isn't a great car at all. In terms of value, then I shall say it's a great car. Not great as in Hall Of Fame worthiness, but great in the respect that one can purchase it and not feel like they've been cheated in any way. One can actually buy an Azera and feel that they've gotten a steal because a lot of cars with comparable features cost more. In this day and age when the consumer is always wanting more for their money, Hyundai brings that to the table. For those of that would like an Avalon or Maxima, but really don't want to spend that few extra thousand it takes over an Azera...it's a really great option and you don't have to feel bad about it either.
..."what I have is a problem with their advertising strategies."
They are kind of goofy...but I like the one about "commitment". The male driver they flash on in the beginning is, I believe, the same guy in the CTS commercials. Talk about commitment.....
'Outrageous' would be attempting to compare a Sonata to a 525/528 even it is only talking about interior space or acceleration. Same can be said for the Azera/LS etc. etc. A 'great' car is largely a perception shared by things like Toyotas and Hondas, perhaps not so much by Nissans, and does have a historical and statistical bases. Hyundai may be able to 'earn' this kind of thing - we simply don't know yet It should be noted, however, that the Azera's reliability stats are on the decline. I have no problem with Hyundai or even the Detroit 3 'turning things around' - why should I - heck, it may actually be happening - and if it does certainly more good choices for all of us. What does bother me, however, is anybody who screams at the top of his/her lungs about how good something is when there is little to support the contention - especially over the long term. Tell me about 10 year old Azeras with 200k on them that have never been in the shop - THAT is the kind of thing that changes a reputation. It's like all this crappola about the Genesis - you guys seem to think it is going to redefine the 'sports sedan' market or something and we haven't even seen any roll into the showrooms yet. And BTW, I DO BELIEVE that Hyundai has improved its quality - substantially - but you must admit that they honestly had nowhere to go but up. And don't be insulted or take it personally - the Detroit 3 are, for the most part, in the same 'fix' - a bunch of 'doubting Thomases' out there - just like me. . If I was from Missouri - I'd say......
Captain...again, it's not a comparison...it's a stated fact...that it has more horsepower than the 5er.
There is NO car that has gone 200K miles without one trip to the shop.
There you go again, nobody is saying the Genesis is going to redefine anything. Simply...that it will offer the blue-collar types the very thing that the white-collar types enjoy in their Infiniti/Lexus/MB/BMW cars. Simple as that.
If you do actually believe, then write like you do, stop jumping on both sides of the fence whenever it benefits your point of view!
Captain...again, it's not a comparison...it's a stated fact...that it has more horsepower than the 5er.
And I am taller than some NBA players...
The point is, that kind of "fact" brings nothing to the table, it'll be a much better commercial if instead of compares to the 5-series, it said the Sonata has more HP than the Accord (previous gen that is).
Yeah, sure you can save $40k with the Azera and let other people park it for you. But what will be accomplished with that kind of commercial except maybe to make the current Azera owners feel good?
Hyundai makes decent cars now a day but they need some serious help on their advertising department.
There is NO car that has gone 200K miles without one trip to the shop sure there are - owned two of them recently- a 92 Nissan Maxima (270k)and one that is still on the road - a 98 4 banger Altima(just passed 200). And yes I do routine maintainence myself, belts/hoses/brakes, fluid changes etc. I do buy a set of tires and a battery every now and again . I submit that any reasonably well built car, maintained correctly, SHOULD be able to do this. Maybe my expectations are too high? .
Guys (captain2 & lousiwei), once again, those smart move ads (Sonata vs. 525i; Santa Fe vs. LR3, Azera vs. LS, and few more w/o the comparisons) are tongue-in-cheek. If you are going to take it so literal, then you missed the whole point of those ads.
Actually...it does bring something to the table. You have some that know how big a 5-Series is or seems and to say the Sonata has more interior space than the BMW gives folks and idea of just how big it actually is. It's a reference that is specific. In the other case of horsepower...most know that BMW's are fast cars, to say that you can get a lesser Sonata with more hp than a BMW 5er...well, to some that would be a big deal. It's a REFERENCE POINT!!!
You being taller than SOME NBA players means nothing considering you haven't been specific with a height. Now if you said you're taller than most power forwards in the NBA, then you're saying you're quite tall. Does that make me think you're comparing yourself to them when it comes to basketball skills? Absolutely not, you're using it as a reference.
Yeah, sure you can save $40k with the Azera and let other people park it for you. But what will be accomplished with that kind of commercial except maybe to make the current Azera owners feel good..
The fact that they pocketed $40K!!! Tell me who wouldn't feel good about keeping $40K in their pocket! LOL It doesn't make current Azera owners feel good, we already do. It lets potential buyers know that you can get a bit of luxury without having to pay and arm & a leg for extravagance. Now how can that not possibly make any sense to you?
You're getting a lil better, but it's like pulling teeth. Hyundai is making better than decent cars (not great, but better than decent) which would mean...good cars. I will agree with you completely in the fact that they need help in marketing.
"Simply...that it will offer the blue-collar types the very thing that the white-collar types enjoy in their Infiniti/Lexus/MB/BMW cars."
I have to disagree here. The L/ MB / and BMW are prestige brands. Look how many people buy base model 3 series just to say "I drive a BMW". For that same money you could drive a loaded version of any car in this group that has more room, power and amenities. Take the Genesis for what it is: another competitor in the 30K large sedan market. No matter how good it is, it is not taking more than a 10th of 1% from BMW 5s, Lex GSs or MB E series.
However, I do know one Avalon driver that will be test driving one
"Tell me about 10 year old Azeras with 200k on them that have never been in the shop - THAT is the kind of thing that changes a reputation."
Would be interesting to know where Hyundai want to be in the US market. If you're talking a Toyota equal, then your 200K comment would apply. But if by the Genesis they are aiming into the lower ranges of MB/BMW, that kind of reliability is irrelevant. There's never been a MB/BMW/AUDI that can stay OUT of a shop. No, for that market you need a bit more than reliability: Image. Sometimes I'm not too sure if even Lexus is really considered equal to those marks by the people able to afford them. I've seen the LS compared to MB, but never any of the other Lexus.
Hyundai is making better than decent cars (not great, but better than decent) which would mean...good cars.
I guess I have higher standard about cars than you:
BMW makes few decent cars, mostly good cars MB makes some decent cars, some good cars Lexus makes some decent cars, some good cars Toyota makes decent cars Honda makes decent cars and one good car (S2000) Nissan makes mostly so-so cars, few decent cars and one awesome car (GT-R)
So, to say that Hyundai makes decent cars I am not putting them down by any means.
How can you possibly disagree...you're right...Lexus, MB, Lexus and BMW are all prestige brands that are, for the most part, unaffordable to those like myself...the blue-collar workforce.
I am not saying that the Genesis will take away anything from those prestige brands, if anything it GIVES us blue-collar types a chance to have something WE can feel good about. I mean...a sported out Camry isn't anything to write home about, but...a RWD sedan (that can tote the family around), boasting 368 hp for under $40K...WHOA!!! For those that are a bit more fuel concious...the mid-level V-6 boasting almost 300 hp and probably for the low $30K's...WOW!!!
Economical luxury for the blue-collar worker...that's exactly what the Azera and Genesis offer. As pro-Hyundai as I am, I don't see Genesis pulling sales away from any of the prestige lines, but I do see those that would hop in a Maxima, 300C/Charger R/T or G8, looking at the Genesis. The G8, Maxima and Charger all are the athletic looking of the bunch. The Avalon, Azera and 300 are of the refined ilk...meaning, the have a classier leaning. Something you can drive up to the opera in and not look out of place. The Genesis, supposedly will offer the underpinnings to be athletic and yet, still look classy enough that you can pull up to the opera in it and not look out of place.
I'm sorry...if anyone has paid attention to the latest Hyundai offerings, they would be doing themselves and injustice by not at least test driving a Genesis...just to see what it's about. To be honest, all the hoopla could be for naught. The Genesis COULD be a complete failure and not be the car that they portray it to be, but based on Hyundai's current trend of vehicles...I think it'll be alright.
For that same money you could drive a loaded version of any car in this group that has more room, power and amenities
That does not drive half as good, which is why BMW commands a premium. Look, I know one could get into a Ferrari and say: "What's the big deal?", but operating under an assumption one may not be able to tell the difference, does not mean there isn't a difference.
I guess it depends on your definition of good and decent.
Funny...what makes the GT-R an awesome car? Why is the S2000 the only good car that Honda makes when they've steadily offered the Accord and Civic (for centuries seemingly) for such a long time?
It's not about having a higher standard, it's about being objective when looking at a car.
But now that I see what you mean by decent, I understand what you're saying.
"What does bother me, however, is anybody who screams at the top of his/her lungs about how good something is when there is little to support the contention - especially over the long term. Tell me about 10 year old Azeras with 200k on them that have never been in the shop - THAT is the kind of thing that changes a reputation."
Captain, that's exactly the "logic" Chevy used to claim its trucks were the "most dependable, longest-lasting," simply by excluding the Toyota Tundra on the grounds that it hadn't been sold here long enough. That logic didn't stand up then, so why does it now?
Who said that nobody would be able to tell the difference??? Once again, if Hyundai actually thought they could pull sales from the prestigious line of cars (MB/BMW/Lexus...) then I'm sure they would work to create something that would give you a comparable driving experience.
They are offering a TOUCH of the experience at a fraction of the cost. Again...something the blue-collar folks can afford. While the white-collar types spend their money on the the MB's, BMW's and other "fine" autos...it's not something that most blue-collar types can jump out there and do. If they can, in most cases...they are not going to keep up with the maintenance on them as those costs run high (execpt for the BMW for 4 yrs/50K miles).
Hyundai used Infiniti and Lexus simply as a benchmark to create the Genesis, something to shoot for in certain design elements. Does that mean that the car is supposed to drive like any of them, offer the same experience as any of them...no. It simply means, they hold Lexus and Infiniti in high regard and wanted to create something with those brands in mind, but something that would be affordable to those that can't afford the likes of Infiniti or Lexus.
I'm pretty sure there would be a difference if you get behind the wheel of a Genesis and then jump behind the wheel of an Infiniti M. However...the money you would save by getting the Genesis may make that difference a non-issue to quite a few.
But if by the Genesis they are aiming into the lower ranges of MB/BMW, that kind of reliability is irrelevant. generally agree with this - the point of this whole conversation we've all been having - I don't think that even Hyundai knows where they want to be competitively or FTM - where they are. I see MB Es/5 series/GSs compared all the time as well as 3s/ISs/Gs - as they should be.
Yes, but Captain...those cars that you do seen compared all the time are direct comparisons in terms of like minded cars and overall performance.
Hyundai seemingly knows where they want to be competitively, to be quite honest...I think some of their ads are too deep for most. The American public wants the ad to smack them in the face with what's being said so there's nothing left to think about. Think about it!
Did you not read the link I posted, the Genesis is looking to compete with the 300C, G8, Charger R/T and any others that might end up in this category. One thing for sure, it's funny knowing that Hyundai is going to have two cars competing in the same class, except for one is RWD and the other FWD.
"As pro-Hyundai as I am, I don't see Genesis pulling sales away from any of the prestige lines, but I do see those that would hop in a Maxima, 300C/Charger R/T or G8, looking at the Genesis"
Now you are right on. I can already see the Car and Driver comparison test of the G8 and the Genesis. Just remember that a lot of power, leather interior and power everything doesn't make a car "luxury" There is much more to it than that (even if most of it is superficial)
Comments
Maybe repetition is the charm, since I know others have cleared up this issue at least a couple times already in these forums. Again, Hyundai was not trying to get BMW and Lexus shoppers to spend 1/2 as much on a Hyundai. Instead, they were showing people who can only afford $20,000 to $30,000 cars that they can have a powerful, roomy, reliable, well-built car that has actually has some of the nice qualities of cars that cost twice as much. That was the whole point.
You should also take a look at the clip of the unveiling of the Genesis at the 2008 NAIAS a couple weeks ago, in which the purpose and position of the car in the market is explained. The Genesis is primarily aimed at people who can not afford a premium luxury car (Lexus GS, Infiniti M, BMW 5, Mercedes E), but at the same time want a premium luxury driving experience.
There will also be the people who have money and like to consider themselves "smart shoppers," who might actually choose a Genesis over a more expensive car, and save $10,000 to $20,000 in the process while still getting many of the same luxury and performance qualities of the more expensive cars.
Don't worry, thoguh -- most of the Lexus and Infiniti drivers will stick with their Lexuses and Infinitis. Only a minority of them will test drive a Genesis.
FWIW, everything in those ads (Sonata vs. 5er, Santa Fe vs. LR3, Azera vs. LS) is true and can be backed up.
The Veracruz vs. RX wasn't part of the ads (IIRC, the Veracruz hadn't appeared in showroom when the ads debuted) but MotorTrend offered a nice piece
As explained above, the Sonata vs. 5er ads and other variations from last spring was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. If you took them literally, then you missed the point..
Unless I am not reading the same article as you did, nowhere it was commented the Veracruz is not as nice as the RX. As a matter of fact, the RX never was mentioned in the article. To my understanding, this was written as an initial impression of a long-term test, and objectively, it's too early to render any verdict yet. That said, many people, having logged sufficient miles in the Veracruz, know exactly how the Veraruz fared, as are with any other tested vehicles.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=124391#17
Smaller in terms of exterior dimensions. The interior dimensions (and trunk) aka usable space puts the Sonata in the large car category; mid-size for the Maxima.
Really??? Pray tell, just what might that be, Captain?
I tell you, the better that Hyundai gets...the more nervous it makes those that prefer Toyota, Honda and Nissan. When Hyundai was pure crap, nobody could care less other than making Hyundai vehicles the butt of jokes. Now that their vehicles are vastly improved, folks aren't joking about them, but they are trying to find ways to knock 'em...anything they can find. "Their not crap now, but they're not as good as... " Captain, you talk out the side of your neck half the time. In one breath you can say the Azera is a good car, but then turn around and say it's not worthy competition for the Avalon or Maxima. The only competition the Azera has IS the Avalon and Maxima. No American car (with a V-6) in it's class can hold a candle to it. By default, the Azera's competition is the Avalon and Maxima.
The fact that Hyundai dare goes head to head with Avalon and Maxima...that means, "Hyundai does seem to think they are perhaps - something more than they are."??? Oh...I'm sorry, just because they make a statement that the Azera has more interior space than a 7-Series...they're over-achievers, right? LMAO Wait a minute, the Sonata having more power than a 5-Series. Yeah, I can see how that says Hyundai is better than BMW. Wake up and smell the coffee. Hyundai is doing nothing but making statements that are true.
If you truly believe that those ads are saying that Hyundai is better than BMW, Lexus or any other car used in comparison...maybe you're not as much a car nut as you think. Oh wait a minute, you CAN still be a car nut...just one that's not open minded and biased against most anything non-Toyota. I'm starting to wonder if you were a Toyota employee at one point in your life
P.S. Also...learn how to spell Genesis if you're gonna post about it.
Not bad results for a car mfg..
Veracruz vs. RX350
Avalon vs. Azera vs. Passat
I'm sorry but there is nothing statistically or historically significant that confrims they really make great cars YET . 4 or 5 years of making generally 'average' cars does not doesn't quite cut it. The same could have been said about the Japan 3 circa 1980 - and it then took them another 10 or 15 years to get where they are. And then they seem to want to be considered in the same category as some of the best cars ever made and ones that have been for a quarter of a century or more? As I said earlier - outrageous claims. There really is nothing YET that can really substantiated that confirms that Hyundai has magically turned some sort of corner quality wise and certainly reputation wise. This may happen with time - talk to me 5 or 10 years from now. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was T, H, & N.
How do we know when this has happened? Probably when Hyundai vehicles are sold on some basis other than price..Because the Azera (and most of the rest of the product line) is sold because it is 'cheap' or discounted heavily, the cars it is 'competitive' with will remain those that occupy the same market position. Things like Buicks and Fords. If you were to ask a few thousand random people on the street to give you a one word opinion of Hyundai - what do you honestly think it would be? Then do the same for some of those 'Japanese' brands....
I understand a typo here and there from time to time, but for goodness sake...spell check does exist.
Am I really being agressive or is it that you're not used to having fact shoved back in your face? Relax??? I am the relaxed one here...it's the Toyota & Nissan owners that seem to be up in arms because of lil ol Hyundai! LOL
I have said...vastly improved and if you go back to Hyundai's beginnings and compare their cars then to their cars now...vastly is a very good adjective to use here. Wait a minute...Toyota went through the same thing (which a great many people conveniently forgot or simply don't know). I'm glad you seem to be one that realizes that, but I think even you are afraid to admit that Hyundai seems to have turned the corner. I mean...it happened for Honda, Toytoa and Nissan, so why can't it happen for Hyundai? Fact is...Hyundai has a blue print to follow by the other three already having paved the way...why is it far fetched to blieve that they "got it" in a faster amount of time than the other ones did?
Honestly, I don't think you follow Hyundai at all if you can make a statement that Hyundai hasn't gotten better in terms of quality or reputation. Yeah, you can walk the streets and ask random folks their opinion of Hyundai and they'll give you and answer based on what they think they know. However...if you were to poll 100 current Hyundai owners...I think you'll get something different than you think or expect.
What exaclty is "OUTRAGEOUS"??? That Hyundai vehicles have improved? That they are better than they've ever been? I think what's scaring you pro-Toytoa/Nissan types is that the Hyundai turn-around is seemingly over-night. In actuality...it isn't. It's been steadily ongoing, but it wasn't noticeable until they starting putting out vehicles that were more visually appealing: i.e. 2002 Sonata. You see...when Hyundai vehicles were less than visually appealing, nobody paid attention, but when they started making cars that made others take notice and actually look at them...all the sudden they were doing something.
Seriously...
Perception takes a long time to change. The quality is already there, whether you want to believe it or not. Of course the reputation isn't at the level of the Japanese cars yet. That will take a few more years. Hyundai wasn't built in a day either. It took them 15 years to start building all-around high quality vehicles. Sure, they evolved faster than the Japanese cars, and that's due to all the technology that is available today. Almost every industry is advancing more quickly today compared to 20, 30, 40 years ago.
Many of us will be getting great cars and saving thousands of dollars for a few more years. Almost makes me wish nobody would consider Hyundai, just to keep their prices low. But that would be selfish.
Ahhh that would be too easy for your cause. Why -- because you know that many people have much more than one word to say about Hyundai. Words like "they've come a long way" and "the newer ones look really nice" and "my neighbor got one and it's as quiet and smooth as my Lexus!" etc etc.
Captian, just give it a rest already. Toyota won't be going out of business anytime in the next century. You have nothing to worry about.
From at least 2002 on, I would say Hyundai has proven itself to be building reliable, bang for the buck, value cars, that have far more features (even if not bleeding edge), that cars costing several thousand more. Not only has the average mpg gone up from my XG at around 21.5 to better than 24 in my Azera, but clearly the power is way up as well.
When I use the term value, I mean it in the sense that you "get what you pay for" and a little bit more in achieving what it was designed to do. This would include cars like the Z06 vette, Mazdaspeed 3, Subaru WRX STI, Porsche 911 Turbo, Honda Oddessy, and in the past, I would include some Camry's and Accord's
Almost everyone that posts in this forum that has something negative to say about about the Azera (please notice I said almost) hasn't even taken one for a test drive. They are basing their opinions on stuff that they've read or heard in the media. If you actually take the time to read the posts of those of us that own Azeras, you will see that while we have said it's a very good car...none of us have said it's the greatest car on earth or that it's the best thing since sliced bread. It's just that we have the insight of knowing first hand, the type of vehicle the Azera actually is. Does the car have flaws, indeed. Are these flaws the type that make one regret purchasing one? In most cases, I think I can say the answer is, no. Can this be said of Hyundai vehicles 10 years ago? I think we can all agree that the answer would be no on that.
Captain...please understand that the Avalon is a very solid car because it has a well established history. The fact that it's a good history only helped its cause when they redesigned it. Was the very first Avalon a home-run hit out the park? I really don't think so. However, it quickly built a following and the current Avalon has that benefit. The Azera on the other hand...well, it was a brand spaking new offering in 2006. The only history anyone could bank on was the success of the '02 Sonata (which took a while to pick up) and then the development of the Tucson as well. You still have folks that look at Hyundai with a historical perspective and haven't seen what the company has been doing.
Hyundai has finally learned the formula for creating cars that fit their niche (seemingly), now they just need to learn how to market them as well as change public opinion as well. Right now, the only way one can change their opinion is to spend some time with an actual Hyundai vehicle. I'm not saying they'll walk away, born again, but I'll be doggoned if they won't really consider Hyundai as an option the next time they are shopping a car and Hyundai has one that fits what they're looking for.
Personally...in terms of sales, the Azera isn't a great car at all. In terms of value, then I shall say it's a great car. Not great as in Hall Of Fame worthiness, but great in the respect that one can purchase it and not feel like they've been cheated in any way. One can actually buy an Azera and feel that they've gotten a steal because a lot of cars with comparable features cost more. In this day and age when the consumer is always wanting more for their money, Hyundai brings that to the table. For those of that would like an Avalon or Maxima, but really don't want to spend that few extra thousand it takes over an Azera...it's a really great option and you don't have to feel bad about it either.
Let's just discuss the subjects and skip the personal criticisms, everyone.
Thank you.
Like I said...typos happen, if you notice, I spelled it correctly earlier in the same posting. At least I had the right letters in place.
They are kind of goofy...but I like the one about "commitment". The male driver they flash on in the beginning is, I believe, the same guy in the CTS commercials. Talk about commitment.....
I have no problem with Hyundai or even the Detroit 3 'turning things around' - why should I - heck, it may actually be happening - and if it does certainly more good choices for all of us. What does bother me, however, is anybody who screams at the top of his/her lungs about how good something is when there is little to support the contention - especially over the long term. Tell me about 10 year old Azeras with 200k on them that have never been in the shop - THAT is the kind of thing that changes a reputation.
It's like all this crappola about the Genesis - you guys seem to think it is going to redefine the 'sports sedan' market or something and we haven't even seen any roll into the showrooms yet. And BTW, I DO BELIEVE that Hyundai has improved its quality - substantially - but you must admit that they honestly had nowhere to go but up. And don't be insulted or take it personally - the Detroit 3 are, for the most part, in the same 'fix' - a bunch of 'doubting Thomases' out there - just like me. . If I was from Missouri - I'd say......
There is NO car that has gone 200K miles without one trip to the shop.
There you go again, nobody is saying the Genesis is going to redefine anything. Simply...that it will offer the blue-collar types the very thing that the white-collar types enjoy in their Infiniti/Lexus/MB/BMW cars. Simple as that.
If you do actually believe, then write like you do, stop jumping on both sides of the fence whenever it benefits your point of view!
YES IT DOES - as far as any claim 'that the quality is already there' - TIME WILL TELL, won't it?
And I am taller than some NBA players...
The point is, that kind of "fact" brings nothing to the table, it'll be a much better commercial if instead of compares to the 5-series, it said the Sonata has more HP than the Accord (previous gen that is).
Yeah, sure you can save $40k with the Azera and let other people park it for you. But what will be accomplished with that kind of commercial except maybe to make the current Azera owners feel good?
Hyundai makes decent cars now a day but they need some serious help on their advertising department.
No, go over to the "Stories from the sales frontlines" forum for that!
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
sure there are - owned two of them recently- a 92 Nissan Maxima (270k)and one that is still on the road - a 98 4 banger Altima(just passed 200). And yes I do routine maintainence myself, belts/hoses/brakes, fluid changes etc. I do buy a set of tires and a battery every now and again
You being taller than SOME NBA players means nothing considering you haven't been specific with a height. Now if you said you're taller than most power forwards in the NBA, then you're saying you're quite tall. Does that make me think you're comparing yourself to them when it comes to basketball skills? Absolutely not, you're using it as a reference.
Yeah, sure you can save $40k with the Azera and let other people park it for you. But what will be accomplished with that kind of commercial except maybe to make the current Azera owners feel good..
The fact that they pocketed $40K!!! Tell me who wouldn't feel good about keeping $40K in their pocket! LOL It doesn't make current Azera owners feel good, we already do. It lets potential buyers know that you can get a bit of luxury without having to pay and arm & a leg for extravagance. Now how can that not possibly make any sense to you?
You're getting a lil better, but it's like pulling teeth. Hyundai is making better than decent cars (not great, but better than decent) which would mean...good cars. I will agree with you completely in the fact that they need help in marketing.
I have to disagree here. The L/ MB / and BMW are prestige brands. Look how many people buy base model 3 series just to say "I drive a BMW". For that same money you could drive a loaded version of any car in this group that has more room, power and amenities. Take the Genesis for what it is: another competitor in the 30K large sedan market. No matter how good it is, it is not taking more than a 10th of 1% from BMW 5s, Lex GSs or MB E series.
However, I do know one Avalon driver that will be test driving one
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Would be interesting to know where Hyundai want to be in the US market. If you're talking a Toyota equal, then your 200K comment would apply. But if by the Genesis they are aiming into the lower ranges of MB/BMW, that kind of reliability is irrelevant. There's never been a MB/BMW/AUDI that can stay OUT of a shop. No, for that market you need a bit more than reliability: Image. Sometimes I'm not too sure if even Lexus is really considered equal to those marks by the people able to afford them. I've seen the LS compared to MB, but never any of the other Lexus.
I guess I have higher standard about cars than you:
BMW makes few decent cars, mostly good cars
MB makes some decent cars, some good cars
Lexus makes some decent cars, some good cars
Toyota makes decent cars
Honda makes decent cars and one good car (S2000)
Nissan makes mostly so-so cars, few decent cars and one awesome car (GT-R)
So, to say that Hyundai makes decent cars I am not putting them down by any means.
I am not saying that the Genesis will take away anything from those prestige brands, if anything it GIVES us blue-collar types a chance to have something WE can feel good about. I mean...a sported out Camry isn't anything to write home about, but...a RWD sedan (that can tote the family around), boasting 368 hp for under $40K...WHOA!!! For those that are a bit more fuel concious...the mid-level V-6 boasting almost 300 hp and probably for the low $30K's...WOW!!!
Economical luxury for the blue-collar worker...that's exactly what the Azera and Genesis offer. As pro-Hyundai as I am, I don't see Genesis pulling sales away from any of the prestige lines, but I do see those that would hop in a Maxima, 300C/Charger R/T or G8, looking at the Genesis. The G8, Maxima and Charger all are the athletic looking of the bunch. The Avalon, Azera and 300 are of the refined ilk...meaning, the have a classier leaning. Something you can drive up to the opera in and not look out of place. The Genesis, supposedly will offer the underpinnings to be athletic and yet, still look classy enough that you can pull up to the opera in it and not look out of place.
I'm sorry...if anyone has paid attention to the latest Hyundai offerings, they would be doing themselves and injustice by not at least test driving a Genesis...just to see what it's about. To be honest, all the hoopla could be for naught. The Genesis COULD be a complete failure and not be the car that they portray it to be, but based on Hyundai's current trend of vehicles...I think it'll be alright.
That does not drive half as good, which is why BMW commands a premium. Look, I know one could get into a Ferrari and say: "What's the big deal?", but operating under an assumption one may not be able to tell the difference, does not mean there isn't a difference.
Funny...what makes the GT-R an awesome car? Why is the S2000 the only good car that Honda makes when they've steadily offered the Accord and Civic (for centuries seemingly) for such a long time?
It's not about having a higher standard, it's about being objective when looking at a car.
But now that I see what you mean by decent, I understand what you're saying.
Captain, that's exactly the "logic" Chevy used to claim its trucks were the "most dependable, longest-lasting," simply by excluding the Toyota Tundra on the grounds that it hadn't been sold here long enough. That logic didn't stand up then, so why does it now?
They are offering a TOUCH of the experience at a fraction of the cost. Again...something the blue-collar folks can afford. While the white-collar types spend their money on the the MB's, BMW's and other "fine" autos...it's not something that most blue-collar types can jump out there and do. If they can, in most cases...they are not going to keep up with the maintenance on them as those costs run high (execpt for the BMW for 4 yrs/50K miles).
Hyundai used Infiniti and Lexus simply as a benchmark to create the Genesis, something to shoot for in certain design elements. Does that mean that the car is supposed to drive like any of them, offer the same experience as any of them...no. It simply means, they hold Lexus and Infiniti in high regard and wanted to create something with those brands in mind, but something that would be affordable to those that can't afford the likes of Infiniti or Lexus.
I'm pretty sure there would be a difference if you get behind the wheel of a Genesis and then jump behind the wheel of an Infiniti M. However...the money you would save by getting the Genesis may make that difference a non-issue to quite a few.
generally agree with this - the point of this whole conversation we've all been having - I don't think that even Hyundai knows where they want to be competitively or FTM - where they are.
I see MB Es/5 series/GSs compared all the time as well as 3s/ISs/Gs - as they should be.
Hyundai seemingly knows where they want to be competitively, to be quite honest...I think some of their ads are too deep for most. The American public wants the ad to smack them in the face with what's being said so there's nothing left to think about. Think about it!
Did you not read the link I posted, the Genesis is looking to compete with the 300C, G8, Charger R/T and any others that might end up in this category. One thing for sure, it's funny knowing that Hyundai is going to have two cars competing in the same class, except for one is RWD and the other FWD.
Now you are right on. I can already see the Car and Driver comparison test of the G8 and the Genesis. Just remember that a lot of power, leather interior and power everything doesn't make a car "luxury" There is much more to it than that (even if most of it is superficial)
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