Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
I sure hope that at least some of them do, they deserve it, but I guess what you fail to grasp is that for whatever corporate profits do make it back to Japan (Toyota Motor USA (and Nissan and Honda etc.) are American (taxpaying) corporations BTW) - it is a drop in the bucket compared to the dollars contributed just by building things like new plants and providing all those new jobs to begin with.
Put yourself in Hyundai's shoes(or Toyotas/Nissans/Hondas) - would you even consider hiring some of these ex-Ford employees? Probably not if you had any sense, this is a guy that is used to telling his boss (thru his union) what he is willing to do and how fast - the last thing any employer should want. The Detroit 3s problems certainly have a lot to do with subpar non-competitive products , and agreeing to some really nasty controlling labor contracts several years ago when those companies were in some sort of SUV/low gas price euphoria. Their own fault, of course, and a serious misjudgement which will probably result in the world's first Chinese Buick, if GM/Ford (in particular) can hold on that long.
Yes, they have no support whatsoever and look awful. Also, I prefer (actually I demand) floor mounted shifter instead of wheel column mounted one.
The Azera meets the "large" car criteria we had, which is ride, comfort and performance.
If all you want to buy are DC cars, that is your choice, I've had good experiences with them in the past. But, don't knock the Azera; it just met our needs better for this purchase.
Do you know what engine choices they have?
Oh - about the Towncar - yeah, in a rental, at 90mph, it's going to be a bit loose. DUH. Otoh, the model I suggested had the improved suspension and it makes a dramatic difference, simmilar to how the suspension in the older Buicks was - you had to buy the touring suspension if you wanted it to even remotely not drive like a boat. Rental companies? They buy the base model with nothing on it other than maybe leather and it drives as expected.
Still... 17K for a base model? It's a lot of car for the money compared to most everything else.(of course, the 6-8K in rebates helps a great deal). I know many people who would give it a second look compared to GM's and Ford's other offerings in the 17-25K range.
You crossed the line el capitain. That is your opinion.
If you had said your beloved Avalon is better than the Charger then I would believe it since you don't even own an Azera.
noted to have the most overstated FE ratings in the industry
Where do you get this information? Care to share?
2.4L I4 (LE5) - 170 hp / 170 ft-lb tq
3.0L V6 (LW9) - 170 hp / 185 ft-lb tq
The 2.4 I4 is the ecotech but I don't know what the ratings are over there in China (the 170hp is the NA rating). The 3.0L V6 is for Chinese spec applications only.
The reference to the FE ratings comes from an article in CR several months ago that talked about the new revisions in the EPA mpg tests to make them more realistic and then, went on to do before and afters on many cars. The most overated actually turned out to be the hybrids, the top of the list for strictly gassers, the 300 V8. Something to the tune of a 40% reduction in real world FE and 12 mpg city if I remember right. That's a lot of gas especially when it's of the premium variety. IMO, and again based on driving the car, the best engine is the 3.5 anyway. If I dig thru my old issues of CR I may be able to find the article.
The Azera is also a fine driving car, surprised the heck out of me, with a much improved powertain and a quantum leap for Hyundai, and much more of a competitor to an Avalon than a 300/Charger could ever be and following along with some of the comments I've read here recently a car with better fit and finish, much more standard amenties, more comfortable, and a killer price tag . I doubt very seriously that the 300/Charger sparks much discussion in the Toyota board rooms, but am relatively confident that the Azera and Sonata do - as they should.
Then explain to me why the 300 has won the 10 best car award from Car and Driver for 3 straight years in the large car segment?
This is coming from a car magazine that usually hates American Branded cars.
I don't see the Avalon or the Azera? They must not be good enough but that doesn't matter as long as "el Capitain" et al love it. Actually there is no Toyota products in the segment.
Have a read if you don't believe me http://www.caranddriver.com/bestcars/12060/2007-chrysler-300.html
Instead of dismissing Avalon/Azera because they didn't make it into Car & Crap, I'd suggest a test drive to see why these are up to par with competition, if not better.
Note: my dislike for C&D has no bearing on evaluation of vehicles discussed here
JD Power-well if you believe them then you should being driving a Buick because they have been at the top of their list in reliability.
Who reads or listens to Canadian garbage?
Car and Driver is the most popular car magazine and second would be Road and Track not the list you gave me.
I rest my case.
Because C&D scoring is biased heavily towards 9/10ths handling (where the 300 admittedly excels due to RWD) and straight line acceleration, where the Hemi versions excel.
Some of us feel the "best car" for us is a well-balanced vehicle that offers not only good handling and acceleration but also excellent ride comfort, fit and finish, fuel economy and visibility. We feel that the Azera and Avalon trump the 300 in these aspects and hence are, overall, better cars.
Different strokes for different folks.
Did anyone else smell the qualifier here as you read it? I wonder which large cars the editors eliminated as being not "mainstream", and what their definition of "big" is.
Hmmmmmmm...?
I never said the Avalon or Azera are lousy cars but I feel the 300/Charger are better than the crowd of FWD cars out there. Chrysler has given customers RWD at a great price something that GM and Ford haven't been able to do.
Actually neither has Toyota or Honda.
You have to buy an IS350 if you want RWD.
You can't include the archaic Grand Marquis (Plekto isn't going to like this) even if it has the so called sport suspension.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I appreciate your cooperation in getting back on topic.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Consumer Reports and the others are more concerned with value and reliability of a vehicle and attempt to give ratings that will more closely reflect what the average consumer will experience.
I don't give any of them my full confidence, ESPECIALLY CR. I've driven many solid black circles and never had a major issue (knock on wood). Then again, maybe I'm better than the average American with my care and maintenance.
IMO, Popular Mechanics gives the most objective reviews although they're pretty limited in the vehicles they evaluate. Nothing compares to owner feedback, though, which is why I keep coming here.
Owner feedback in forums such as this is a great source of information, but you can't use it to derive valid statistical inferences regarding the relative reliability of a particular model.
The fact that you have owned problem-free examples of vehicles that got black circles in CR ratings (or conversely, the fact that some people have had serious problems with vehicles that had nothing but red circles) does not mean the CR ratings are not valid. It merely reflects the fact that they are averages, and there is a wide range of individual experiences.
It's all relative, and since general reliability of all vehicles (except, arguably, the German makes) has improved in recent years, black circles don't mean CERTAIN trouble. But they DO mean a higher chance of trouble than red circles.
As far a rear wheel drive vehicles; we had the giant snowstorm here in Denver and the gentleman who reviews cars in our local newspaper had two elite vehicles stuck at his house-a Lexus and a BMW-both rear drive.
The 300 is a fine car but not in snowy places and not for people who cannot bend over to squeeze into the car.
I think reliability is one of the most important aspects of a car. What a problem if it is always in the shop.
Have a great New Year.
Brad
That's been my theory for quite some time. Just how *does* CR control for this clearly important item? (Hint: they don't, and can't).
It makes sense to me that (on average), those who pay MORE for their vehicles (read, Japanese brands) are more likely to take better care of their vehicles (read money), than those who choose lower-priced vehicles (read, American brands).
I have to disagree. These are hardly scientific surveys. I, for one, never fill out the surveys. And there's no way to know the motives of those who do.
One also needs to bear in mind how SMALL the differences can be these days that separate the good from the not-so-good. The scales for CR aren't constant with time: they change. Today's mediocre car may easily be MUCH better than a good car from 10 or 20 years ago.
And I've had three Tauri, and none of them spent any significant time in the shop.
Again, look at the SMALL differences between the best cars and the mediocre ones. Sometimes it's as little as 1.3 defects per car and 1.0 defects per car.
IIRC they rated the Ridgeline as soon as it came out-no data. Of course the same time they were refusing to rate the Malibu even though it was based more on a previous model than was the Ridgeline--which had been their excuse for predicting the Ridgeline would be a wonderful (Honda) vehicle.
Similarly for the Avalon. I do recall seeing a drop the rating at the bottom of a page on a library copy of the mag that I picked up for batteries or cameras or something. But they didn't hesitate to rate it as a wonderful (Toyota) model before data had accumulated. Oddly some people tell me it was an all new car sharing not one part with another Camry similar product... so CR couldn't use the past results on similar models excuse for their preference.
How many reports for 1998 Buick leSabres did CR use for their info? How many surveys of longterm owners did CR use for their 500 evaluations? Shorterm owners?
Lack of info isn't there.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I was asked to fill out a CR survey last year and I was less than thrilled by their methodology. While they do break it down to about 14 or so categories for the problem/reliabilty survey, they only way you can answer is either yes or no regarding problems. To illustrate how that can skew ratings, the way they categorize gives the same weight to a minor engine ping or a failed distributor or engine sensor in the same category. And the categories are vague enough to allow the same problem to be reported in two or more categories, (ie, fuel system, engine minor, engine major) and cause some questionable results.
My take in all this is don't rely on any one single source for car ratings and reviews. And even though the samples may be anecdotal, these and other forums give one real world experiences from the forum users that can supplement the media ratings and reports.
Another tidbit about the CR report: In the instructions they point out that the problems to be considered are ones that you considered SERIOUS because of cost, failure, safety or downtime. There are no directions that define what SERIOUS is and this can allow unnecessary emotions and bias into the equation. Many other reliabilty reports I have seen or worked with in the past define the parameters such as a day in the shop, more than a day, time out of service, etc.
You can't make anyone participate in any survey, and you can never know the true motives of any survey participant.
So, by this reasoning, I guess you think all survey-based studies are meaningless...market research, focus groups, political polling, etc.?
OK,whatever.
I agree, take all available information into account when evaluating a car.
I am sure they have taken those into account, but having filled one out, it seem to me that they have created a short, condensed survey that would be more effective if it allowed for more detail to be included. For a topic that so many rely on to be reduced to approx. 14 yes/no questions causes me to rely less on that survey than I used to. If they gave a responder more choices and flexibility in answering/responding, I would give it more credence.
Perhaps you noticed that CR's survey is allegedly mailed to subscribers only and then only those who choose fill it out--whatever their motive or lack of motive about the car they may or may not even own!
Market research will use a telephone survey of randomly selected phone numbers so that they get a truly random survey. They also collect some data qualifying those who do answer the phone to adjust their survey results. Similarly for political polling; however the people paying for the poll often misuse or misrepresent the results. It's all in the group of questions that being asked in both political and nonpolitical surveys.
I received a phone poll about local news anchors and by the repetitive spiraling type of questions, I believed it would give them good info about the one station's evening news characters.
CR's poll method is called convenience polling in things I've read. It's the same as standing in front of a grocery store in one part of town and asking those entering questions about something--if they choose to talk to you (I wouldn't). I did hit a convenience poll inside Lowes several years back but it clearly was for their benefit; I talked to them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Same thing on the mileage listings where "large cars" are defined as having 120 cu. ft. or more of passenger and cargo volume.
Have you driven them all? There are some fine riding cars here. I have driven every vehicle in this discussion except the Amanti, (Charger technically, but the same as a 300) and must disagree with you. All have different characteristics. For example, the Lucerne has the plushest softest ride, the Maxima one of the firmest. IMO the Avalon and the Azera have the best combo of smoothness and handling.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Really? Per http://autos.msn.com the 300C is 196.8" and the Charger is 197.7", making a difference of 0.9".
All surveys are flawed to one degree or another. But the CR survey is one of the poorest I've ever seen.
My bad, I accidentally wrote down the number from the Magnum (I had all three of the siblings up at the same time).
"You are giving out to much false information here and should look up the facts before you put down something."
Ummm, your attitude is most unbecoming and does nothing to engender camaraderie.
Best Regards,
Shipo