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A used CTS
A used G35
A used IS300
All of these can be had in mint condition with under 50K on them for your price range. They are built better, stronger, have more features, more safety equipment, and out-everything a typical econobox. My father for years bought 3-5 year old used semi-luxury cars for new economy prices and the difference was amazing.
An IS300 will last at least 5 years more than a Yaris, so buying "used" isn't a big deal. The CTS is a tank as long as you get the last year or two of the first generation. The G35 sedan is.. Well, there's nothing bad about it that I can find.
Let someone else eat the depreciation.
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
All I can think of is maybe a C230K sedan with manual, which averages nearly 30mpg.(small supercharged 4) or a VW TDI, but those are pricey to keep running.
The problem is the sedan as well. If you can handle a coupe or hatchback, it also is a larger list. If you can handle two doors, just get a 2005 Celica. It's the least expensive car to repair and keep running that Totoyta's made in the last 20 or so years(trucks aside - that's a different list) and it gets good MPG.(25/33 *new* MPG, no less). 30mpg combined is a cinch.
How will people know how kewl I am if I don't drive my fogs 24/7 ???? It's, like, what I am, ya know?
:sick:
That's just silly. all the cars the poster is considering get that kind of fuel economy (better, actually) and they are not stripped down tin cans. Civics, Corollas, Sentras, all have ABS and standard safety systems and they have power windows too. The point isn't what you would or wouldn't drive but what would be good choices given what the poster has in mind. Fuel economy is an important consideration given that the person will be commuting daily.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
The Sandman :sick: :shades:
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Probably want a 4-dr sedan (for the visibility - coupes don't tend to have it)
-Honda Civic - I had high hopes here based on what I read, but was a little disappointed with the test drive. I could get over how different it drives (distinctive personality), and maybe the small windows (reduced visibility), but when I hit the gas there's a pause before the engine cuts in, which I'm told by the salesperson is because the linkage is electronic. A new feature they're touting this year. No offense, but I think I'll wait until it's a bit more mature and refined.
-Hyundai Elantra - I went in wanting to like this car, but with the headset of "why would I buy this rather than another Corolla". It was a competent Corolla knock-off, but acceleration was sluggish. There was no compelling reason to buy it over the Corolla. BUT, while I was there, I got into a
-Hyundai Accel - I really enjoyed driving this car. It was peppy, good windows, handled very well. However, it's really quite a low-end car, and I suspect over time I'm going to be disappointed with the cheapness of it.
-Corolla - of course I drove one. For some reason, it wasn't as comfortable as my current one (I think the seats are too buckety) but yeah, it generally looked, handled, and drove like a Corolla, little has changed in 15 years, and it may be where I end up. Except, I don't want to 8-{ - because of 2 reasons: 1) Although I don't expect my car to "take off" on me, I am concerned that Toyota has made some general acknowledgments of declining quality in the last few years. These are reflected in the CU ratings, and so maybe it won't be as reliable as I want. 2) I'm in my early 50s, and this car will take me to my mid-late 60s, I want to at least try to find something a little different and fun (that also (sigh) meets all my other criteria). I'm also concerned about widespread web postings about problems with the electronic steering.
My mechanic won't let me look at Nissan's. He says they're designed for easy construction but very time consuming to repair (you have to do too much disassembly). I'm thinking of checking out the Impreza, but it seems bigger and heavier than I'd like (and doesn't AWD imply more maintenance? although it probably would be a plus since I live in New England). I think I should also check out the Mazda-3.
I'm avoiding hybrids for now because I tend to keep my cars much longer than the battery warranties (I drive only 5-7K mi/yr). But maybe I should compromise if there's a car that meets my other criteria. Is there?
Also - I know that I'm ignoring the luxury models, but I can't bring myself to my $27K and up for a car when there are some perfectly acceptable models available for $16-18K (and, geez, they're like giving Toyotas away around here lately).
So I don't know what to do. So I'm asking for suggestions. Want to buy by June.
Thanks very much!
/j
156HP base engine, lots of convenience and safety features, killer warranty ... all for around $15K. I was looking at the EX model just last week and got a couple of quotes for under $15,5K pretty easily. The LX model is even less expensive.
Good luck and let us know how the search goes and what you end up getting.
First off, mos tof the issues that you have can be solved with most vehicles by just getting one with a manual transmission. But of course you don't want it to be a rubbery and useless mess of a gearbox, either. If it has to be an automatic, then you should look at RWD sedans first and stuff like you have been looking at last, because nobody really WANTS to drive a soulless jellybean econobox.
My suggestion would be to go up a size and get a better car with a V6 engine a couple of years old. This would greatly expand your choices to things like the TSX, the previous generation CTS, a Lexus IS (I'd personally get a 2005 IS300, actually as it has none of the present drive-by-wire issues) and so on, and of course, mainstream cars like the Accord. Though, as far as Honda goes, I'd avoid Honda and Toyota and get the Mazda. Nearly identical cars in the way that they drive and their features, but the prices used are far more attractive with the Mazda.
Mazda also has incentives and deals and cheaper parts. The last time I got a Toyota part from the dealer, it was literally the same price range as my Volvo I had a few years ago. Great cars, but wow - Toyota isn't cheap to fix any more. They're clearly gouging quite a bit from what I can tell. Now, to be fair, most of them are. But Mazda seems to be a bit more reasonable. Well, at least currently.
IMO, though, there is a real "sleeper" in the mix that fits all of the criteria and is affordable. Take a look at a 1 year old certified Pontiac G8. This is actually a Holden from Australia and is every bit as well made and well designed as any European sedan. It doesn't look, drive, or feel like any GM car that you've ever seen. They still sell it in Australia and it is the #1 midsize sedan there. I'd rate it as nearly equal to the CTS in overall quality, and GM's 2nd best car to date. Kind of a idiot move, IMO, that they stopped selling it in 2009, but that just means you can get a 30K car for 20K or less, certified.
My only personal issue was the lack of manual transmission, but they are inexpensive used and between it and a Corolla or Civic, well, it's no contest. A car with $5K+ more materials in it will come out ahead every time, just like how the TSX is a better car than the Civic.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=273391589
Certified and something I'd take in a heartbeat over a similarly priced Corolla.(after the new car registration fees and other nonsense with the Toyota, not a lot of price difference, actually)
I'm just not a fan of tiny econoboxes any more given the insane number of large turcks and SUVs out there. Unless it's a special model made to get 40mpg, most midsize sedans have no problems at all in getting 3-4mpg less than their tiny economy counterparts. Some get nearly identical MPG highway, in fact. This is something Ford and GM are known for, actually - a very tall overdrive gear. 30mpg in a Buick isn't uncommon on long trips. Plus, it's nice to have, as you mentioned, things like traction control/ESC, leather, and so on. Stripped down economy cars tend to be feature and safety poor compared to their larger midsize siblings.
I would also look at the Focus ... there is a new one due out any day now, I think, though. And the Fiesta is on its way, too.
I don't know about this Nissan issue your mechanic describes. I certainly didn't see such an issue with my 350Z or G35.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I can look at the Kia - I didn't realize it was a twin of the Elantra - if it was, why would it be such lower rated in Consumer Reports?
A larger car gives me more choices, except, I don't want a larger car. 8-] I also -do- want something new, and a 4-speed auto trans, FWD is a requirement (I'm in New England)
I will take a fresh look at the Honda Fit - thanks.
I think I'd rather not buy a restyled/re-done Ford (or any car) until it's been out a year (reliability concerns).
One problem around here is the paucity of dealers for the 2nd tier makes. I don't want to have to drive 2hr round trip whenever it needs to see a dealer....
[that's why I cater to my mechanic's preferences - he's good, and very nearby 8-}]
thanks - keep the input comin'
/j
If you're only driving 5-7k/year, I'd pick up a 1-year old Fusions (or Corolla, or whatever) and save a bundle. Keep what you saved for any repairs and you'll be golden. Considering you'll never hit the mileage part of the warranty anyway....1 year reduction isn't going to amount to anything.
Certified with a warranty is in no way a problem. You get a warranty and save 5-10K in depreciation. And it still likely has a lot of that "new car" smell. Actually that's unhealthy benzene and other volatile chemicals out-gassing - let the other person get cancer as well as eat the initial depreciation.
EDIT: Actually, I'm not entirely joking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_car_smell - CPO is a smart move in terms of taxes, insurance, depreciation, lower payments, and your health.
http://www.healthystuff.org/departments/cars/product.bestworstcars.php
This is a site dedicated to this sort of research. It unfortunately seems to be very make and make specific with no patterns. Some Hondas, for instance, are good, others are horrendous.
Anyways, on to the cars...
1: The new TSX. It's about the same size as a Civic(based upon the same platform) but it's just simply amazing in the levels of features and little touches that it has over anything else in its price range other than maybe Mercedes, Audi, and Volvo. Just, it has Honda quality. Win-win scenario. And the rear window is easy to see out of unlike the Civic. Get a CPO or Program vehicle 2009 model with 10-15K on it. $20-22K - a bit over your budget, but worth it. You'll never regret it.
2: If you want something smaller, like a Fit, then the best choice for really small is a VW Golf/etc. I have a friend who has one and it's been a fantastically reliable and cheap ride that literally runs circles around the Fit in handling, speed, and features. As long as you avoid the turbocharged engines, you'll be fine. Interesting note - they do make a luxury Fit in Japan that's decked out like an Acura would be over here. The Fit we get over here is too spartan and "econobox" as a result of them not wanting to cannibalize Aura's sales of the TSX.
3: The last choice is also a midsize car. I'd have rated it as #1 before Toyota's problems. But you can get one 1-2 years old with nearly no miles on it for dirt cheap as a result. It's the IS250. It's basically a luxury Corolla with a bigger engine and a ton of extra goodies. I'd rather get a nearly new IS250 than a Corolla for the same money. No contest at all.
4: Now, as a bonus for those who want RWD and.or manual, my top picks are the previous generation CTS and the G35 Sedan. If you want smaller and sporty and yet capable of handing with the Euro crowd in terms of speed and handling, these are awesome cars. note - I'm not a fan of the new CTS - too large and visibility issues - it's really not a car I'd have fun with on a mountain road or on a track day.
The G35, OTOH, is stunning. I tried and honestly can't find a single thing wrong with it. I drove a BMW 5 series and all I could find myself saying was things like "it doesn't have X like the G35" and "Why is this done this way(unlike the G35)". And it looks good, too. There actually are also color choices other than beige, silver, white, and black. :P (the new blue color is fantastic, btw)
I've heard some about the Ford Fusion - just trying to accept that there's such a thing as a reliable American car (actually, CU doesn't rate it that high for reliability...)
I wonder if there's a really small Acura. I suppose a 1-year old Accura or LS-250 might be worth a look, if they're really much cheaper than new (are they?)
I was going to look at the Fit today, but what really ticks me off about it (as well as the Civic) is that you have to buy the most tricked-out model (including navigation system, which I have no use for), in order to get ESC. That headset has me wanting to boycott Honda on general principle, since everyone else (Toyota, Hyundai, Suburu, Mazda, etc) now makes ESC std. on their small cars.
I -am- going to drive a Scion this weekend though
thanks for the comments, keep them comin...
/j
For someone driving 30-40k miles a year reliability can be a big deal. I used to drive that and at one point bought one of the worst rated vehicles (a VW) and put 200k miles on it with very little drama. The point is...if you really like something and it meets your needs...why sweat it over reliability? You have a good mechanic, you don't drive much, and the real kick in the teeth is you could just as easily buy the most reliable vehicle made and end up with a lemon. It's very painful when you compromise and buy something based on reliability and it turns out to be a heap!
Used cars outsell new ones by boatloads. New cars have a limited supply and they still incentivize the crap out of them to move what they build. If I can find what I want with low miles and decent shape, I'll take a used one any day over a new one. The savings is quite big in the scheme of things and if you go with a CPO you'll end up with more warranty. I recently was shopping for a new SUV and settled on a Pathfinder. Could have bought a slightly used CPO model from a dealer with 7 years of warranty for about $6,000 less than a new one. I ended up buying from a private seller (and not getting the CPO) but saved even more. It doesn't have as good of a reliabity rating as my other option (the 4Runner) but I like it more so I guess I don't care.
And, yes, you can get a $30K car for $20K that still has a warranty as good as brand new. The CPO warranty generally extends the new one another 1-2 years. Most vehicles have so little wear on it that it might as well be new. I know of one local dealership that meticulously cleans the interiors and goes over every inch of the car to the point where it looks and feels like new. They actually take out the seats to clean the carpets among other things.
Now, not all dealerships are like that, so you have to shop around, of course, but I have seen some vehicles that literally don't have a single ding or scratch on them (usually dealer owned or program cars) and yet there's that massive price difference staring you in the face.
A bit more about cars... :P
You'll likely hate Ford, from what you've been saying. Your top choice probably would be a Mercedes or Volvo if it weren't for reliability and repair cost issues that are typical of the European luxury cars. The Ford Fiesta is coming out soon, but it's a love it or hate it experience and honestly quite a bit overpriced as well. Ford's trick of selling a $15K car with $10K in options is all too common in the industry now.
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=274039536
A typical example. What was $40K 20K miles ago is now $23K.
And to be honest, I'm spoiled, my Corolla went years between needing anything more than an oil change. 8-}
But, ok, I'll stop by a Lexus dealership and check out used. (there's exactly -one- dealer within reasonable driving distance (sigh). (I'd check out Acura as well, but I don't see that Acura makes anything as small as the Civic) (UPDATE: 2-year old Lexus's are still $27-28K - can't justify the difference over a Corolla or Matrix (or Scion))
And you're right, i'd look closer at the european cars if they were cheaper/less painful to own.
still - I suppose if I fell in love with something less reliable, I'd give it a 2nd look (I DID like the Accent, but the CU "I'd buy again" was really low - and I think -that- should mean something...).
keep 'em comin'
/j
The reason you likely never needed more than oil changes on your old Corollas was because you never drove it! I have a relative that drives very little and she has a '98 Malibu which has a horrible reliability rating. She bought the car with 20k miles in '99 as an off-rental unit and now has 75k miles. She's made two repairs since buying it. No rust either but that's something Toyota is known for and doesn't seem to hit the reliability radars....
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listin- - gId=36396771
This is your typical after-haggling price for an IS250. My $40K estimate was off - it's only $30K new, or about 22K two years old.
The trick is to use Autotrader and Cars.com to do these searches, since 90%+ of dealerships list their cars now on one of the two websites.
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?tracktype=usedcc&csDlId=&csDgId=&listin- - gId=37200639
This TSX is only $23K. The economy is rough for a lot of dealerships and this is the reality for most of them - they aren't making huge profits any more on used vehicles.
Here's a Civic EX-L, no Nav, automatic:
CarsDirect Price: $20,285
Plus 1-3K in first time registration "luxury tax"(aka first year DMV fees)
Drive both. Really a no-brainer.
http://www.manheimconsulting.com/Used_Vehicle_Value_Index/Current_Monthly_Index.- html
I do drive my car - a lot, every day, on local, curvy, bumpy roads. I suspect I give it as much, or more, wear as someone with 5x the mileage if most of that mileage is highway.
I drove the Fit tonight - I liked it, but it really sticks in my craw to have to either buy the top model, with a nav system i will never use, just to get ESC. Maybe I don't really need ESC but it's the principle. Also checked out the scion Xd and Yari. Yari is very basic, and scion - well, it is like a badly-designed van, with huge blind spots (on the other hand, the new prius has a huge black bar across the middle of the rear window - what were they thinking?). I'm (god help me) still going to visit the lexus dealer soon, and take another corolla test drive, maybe I can learn to like it 8-}.. Thanks for the other shopping tips. Keep 'em comin'
/j
(ps - to sit in a scion I had to go way out in their lot. none in the show room - they're the only scion dealer for 50 miles in any direction and they only sell them on request - tells you something...
You mentioned checking out Subaru as well and you might really like the Impreza. They're more like old-school Toyotas than the new Toyotas but you get AWD and a nice pile of safety features. There's more to break on them but I wouldn't sweat that. Of course Subaru is more common in NE than most anything. I once read they sell some crazy percentage of their vehicles in NE.
However - I'm skipping the lexus, even the I250 is a big car, bigger and heavier than the Mazda3, and no FWD option (only AWD at significant premium - this is New England - cannot have RWD)
Now , the impreza is only slightly smaller/lighter than the mazda 3 - you guys keep pushing the bigger, heavier cars - 8-}
I mention the TSX as it's among the smallest of the premium vehicles out there other than the small junk from Mercedes and BMW. Yes, they are lovely to look at, and drive very well, but the quality isn't there until you get to their upper-end vehicles.
I do know that if you want high quality and small, you have to either sacrifice low cost, back seats(or usable ones at least), or the automatic transmission. The only other choice that I can see as a potential option might be... See, I'm essentially drawing a blank as all of the other good small luxury cars are only sold in Europe or Japan.
That said, the Sentra and Mazda 3 are better values for the money than the Toyota and Honda.
VW Golf - People rave about them, and it looks and drives nice to boot!
Mazda 3 - A fun to drive vehicle definatly worth a look.
Upcoming Chevrolet Cruze - A small car with a very nice interior and you will lose your luggage in its massive trunk.
Upcoming Ford Focus - I don't know much about this one but it may win you over.
Also i noticed you said you didn't want a 1st year vehicle because its kinks haven't been worked out yet. Allthough i don't know about the Ford i can tell you that the Cruze has already been out for abit (i don't know exactly how long) in other contries.
Any suggestions?
A co-worker had his teenage son recently suggesting a Ford Flex to his parents (currently they have an Oddyssey), so I guess that would potentially project the desired non-mom-mobile image. I don't know anything about the vehicle, but it does appear to get minvan-lke mpg.
The GM triplets... GMC Acadia, Chevy Traverse or Buick Enclave
Lower down the cost scale... Dodge Journey has a lot of room, front-to-back (but, not as much width).
Think hard about not sticking with a mini-van, though... Hard to beat the value and utility. And, agreed... SUVs are still soccer-momish..
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Yeah, but they are rugged, outdoorsy, soccer-Momish. :P
However there is also the
Chevrolet Suburban, GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave, Ford Expedition, Toyota Sequoia, GMC Yukon, Mazda CX-9, Nissan Armada, and the Jeep Commander.
There may be a few more that have 3 rows but if you want a juggernaut of a SUV here are your choices.
My sister a couple of years ago had her choice down to a Civic or the Mazda 3. I went over every spec, every option, and every last detail. They actually are near clones of each other aside from the visual differences. But you can get a Mazda 3 for a coupe of thousand less than a Civic if you're shopping for program or 1 year old certified vs new. The Sentra is also a better car than the Corolla for that reason as well. Slightly faster depreciation and quality is just as good. Actually, better, since the Sentra doesn't have the (potentially defective) throttle control system that all Toyotas now have had since ~2006.
My choice would be to get something with a manual transmission because of the better MPG, lower cost, and sportier driving. Most of the problems, in fact, that cars these days are having is from the overly complex automatic transmissions. Case in point - the Mercedes C class is a disaster repair-wise, but if you get one with absolutely nothing electronic on it - no sunroof, no nav, no anything - and manual, it'll last you a decade or more without any major issues.
I never asked if manual was a possible option, though. If it is, though, it opens up a whole other range of small and fun cars.
*****
Concerning the SUV question/post:
If you only have three or four passengers, you might also consider a full size sedan. Even an old Crown Vic gets better highway MPG than most SUVs, and something large like an Avalon or Cadillac DTS will get nearly 30mpg on long trips. Plus have a massive trunk. And it's certainly more classy as well as handles better than a typical minivan.
(edit - of course get one 2-3 year old, Certified. A Grand Marquis, for instance, 2 years old can be had for almost 60% of its new cost)
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=c&car_id=275752399
This is before haggling, even. Was $40K new, $23K or so, two years old. You can spend $25-30K on a typical small SUV or minivan, so this is well within your budget as well.
MPG: 15 City / 23 Hwy - EPA - actually gets a consistent 25mpg highway according to most owners, due to a very tall overdrive gear. Not bad for a big V8.
A 2008 Sienna V6 minivan, btw, gets 17/23. Almost 100HP less than the DTS.
A 2008 4Runner V6 gets 16/20 mpg. Same story. Too small of an engine for the weight, so it actually works too hard and MPG suffers.
If we're talking V6 large sedans, though, 18/28 is extremely typical with 30mpg on cruise control being possible. My father has an older Park Avenue as an example and we can easily fit five full sized adults in it. I personally hate driving it, but it's worlds better than the minivan I last rented on a trip with my relatives. Tons of space but no power, no features, miserable handling.. the worst of all worlds rolled into one massive compromise - just to fit 7 people.
We should have just rented a Suburban.