Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to learn more!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
How many consumers? If your goal is to only produce 1,000 vehicles a year that's all the consumers you need. If Tesla or Phoenix Motorcars sell all the vehicles they manufacture it's ridiculous to say that they aren't producing a car that consumers want. There are simply producing a vehicle that not too many consumers want. That applies to a lot of products, not just autos, that are available in our market. The question becomes, can they make money with this very limited market? That remains to be seen. My guess is that they can't right now but there is the potential for future profitability and you have to start somewhere. As someone previously pointed out, Ford can't make a profit either and they sell a lot of vehicles.
Phoenix Motorcars apparently has plans for a plug-in hybrid (PHEV). Given the extremely high cost of batteries I think this is a good move. A pure EV will force the buyer to spend a lot of extra money on battery capacity that he might rarely use. PHEVs give you the majority of EV benefits at a substantially reduced cost. Some people state they aren't interested in this extra level of complexity. A PHEV has a battery, an ICE, and a generator. Sounds like just about every car on the road today.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/LAW04825042007-1.htm
Of course, we always like an INDEPENDENT testing agency rather than what appears in a company's PR sheets.
The consumer can't solely rely on the interested party as the source of the information. Product publicity can become as faith-based as religion sometimes.
I am not so sure about that.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevreview/zev_review_staffreport.pdf
However, the SPHEV (do we have enough letters yet?) could be somewhat simpler than might appear.
Simplified or elimination of what we think of as a standard type transmission
Starter could possibly be eliminated.
Alternator?
It would be really nice if the engine could be air cooled to get rid of radiators and hoses and such.
If it is going to cost me more, how much would be determined by the capabilities of both vehicles, then I guess SPHEV is for me.
The gas-guzzling American car was driven to near-extinction by the gas "crises" of '73 and '79 and the Japaneses auto industy came to prosperity and dominance by some amazing strokes of good luck---all their ducks just lining up in one moment in history. Honda should have paid OPEC some big bonus checks :P
I think the world of "technical breakthroughs" has changed though. I think technology evolves much more slowly than it used to, because of the vast exchange of information we have now. I don't think you'll see anything as dramatic as the light bulb replacing the candle in a matter of months, like in the old days.
Fortunately there are several companies working on battery technology. Let's hope one of them can make it cost effective.
I think a $10k battery pack or even more, is probably good enough considering the greatly reduced fuel consumption of a Volt type car... IF the battery is as functional as Altair claims. I would consider up to $35k or so total car cost and believe me, I have never paid close to that for a vehicle. But, that of course depends on if i think a better cheaper model is a year or so away. I really want to stop importing oil...But I recognize I am weird.
If I drive 10,000 miles per year, gas will cost me about $1000 per year. A $5000 extra cost for battery would be a 5 year payback and double my "investment" in 10 years. This is about a 7% return and is pretty close to what I would find acceptable...maybe I'd go as high as $7000. $10K definitely not.
Of course, if you drive a lot more miles then a higher price is going to be acceptable.
That's probably correct but this is based upon a design where you intentionally avoid complete discharge in order to extend the battery pack's life. If that becomes a non-issue and your goal is 40 electric miles you could go with a smaller battery pack. The Volt doesn't appear to be a large vehicle and should be capable of 4 miles per kWh. That's what the Toyota RAV4 EV was able to get. One of the companies that GM has given R&D money to is A123 Systems. They have developed a Li-ion battery that is already on the market in Dewalt power tools. It supposedly has almost identical characteristics to the Altairnano battery. I like their chances for success.
I would think the big east coast cities would be ideal for EV marketing, and maybe retirement communities. Also I could see
Portland, Seattle, etc.
Must be a problem here somewhere. Seems pretty good. I'll read more..
http://www.theaircar.com/faq.html
I am not much of an internationalist when it comes to regulations...but it seems some standardization would be nice. For instance, why can't I get the 50+ mpg diesel Yaris? Perhaps the almighty govt should make some exceptions for vehicles that are high mileage and low emmissions for the near term.
GM is reported to be seeking a $3k price for their Volt battery. So, for the sake of this exercise let's assume:
$1500 = 20 all electric miles
$3000 = 40 " " "
$4500 = 60 " " "
$6000 = 80 " " "
$9000 = 120 " " "
$12000 = 160 " " "
Is 40 the sweet spot? At 20 would people often not bother with plugging in at night? After all, you are getting 50 mpg anyway. Would anyone opt for a non-hybrid if the range were 160 and you could charge in ten minutes.. and say the states installed chargers at all rest stops and various other locations? We should assume that since some other components are eliminated that the cost would be substantially less than the $9k additional that is inferred.
When I think about it, it seems 40 is the sweet spot, given the relatively high mpg when the ICE kicks in anyway.
I saw that $3k target price. I hope that GM can achieve this but I also hope they don't make this the criteria for when they put the car into production. Even if it's more expensive at first get it on the road and sell it at a loss. That's what Toyota did with the Prius and GM now admits that it was as wise move on their part.
Also, allowing for a longer range would allow GM to meet their lifetime mileage expectations immediately instead of waiting until a 40 mile range battery could be improved enough to reach their lifetime range expectancy.
It seems to me that this is something that should be easily configurable based on the driver's needs, up to a point. There will be a space limitation for additional batteries. I actually think that a lot of people would opt for shorter range, maybe 20 miles, if it could save them a couple thousand on the purchase price. Additionally it would make the car lighter, thus more efficient.
At 20, you are to the point where I think a lot of the time it would not even be utilized. Say, if you sleep over at a friends house, there may or may not be the capacity or desire to plug in. Even if at home, you are already getting 50 mpg....20 is not much in the way of cost. Even at 40 one wonders how much slippage there would be.
I do think 40 is probably about right given the projected (hoped for) battery cost.
they could certainly be configurable. If the Volt is able to pull it off, I think there will be a rush to this type of vehicle and within a few years I am thinking various electric mileages. would be available. I would like a configuration that would give me some piece of mind in case of a gas supply interuption. Though at 40 electric and 50 gas, a couple five gallon cans in the garage would go a long way.
says he didn't use the brakes on the test drive. appears like the brakes might last forever...saving more money and hassle.
Sounds like a great vehicle for certain fleet usage and for those who wish to go green with a second car. If the battery will last 27 years, then the car should have pretty good value as it ages....of course if better electrics or other options come along, it will lose more.
I have a hope that at some point we will be able to take those old high mileage cars we have floating around and convert them over in a cost effective manner. I know some companies convert Prius' and do other conversions to EV, but it is not very practical from what I've seen.
The marketing is for a "city only car" naturally, but as far as I can tell, it is presently the most car-like,useful, viable EV that you can actually buy right now at anything resembling a reasonable price.
The car's mpg equivalent, in terms of costs to charge it up, is 245 mpg.
The company is working on patenting some kind of parallel plate capacitor, which, if successful, will boost the range of this vehicle 2 to 3 fold and will cut the charging time and weight way down. Possibly, with installation of this new capacitor, there will be enough room with removal of the lead acid technology to install rear seats and thus give the vehicle 4-seat capacity to go along with the range increase.
Apparently, any Zenn can be retro-fitted with this new capacitor for about the same cost as the lead-acid battery pak replacement.
http://www.zenncars.com/
What I do like about this car is that it is "real". You can go buy one tomorrow if you like.
Actually the company working on the ultra-capacitor is EEstor. Zenn recently invested something like 2.5 million in EEstor. Last year ZENN was saying that they would be using this revolutionary storage device to power its neighborhood vehicles by 2007. Well 2007 is almost half over and as far as I know there is not even a prototype vehicle in existence or even a prototype storage device that would be of the size to power a vehicle. The latest headline out of EEstor is that they have finally achieved a level of purity in one of their components used to produce these ultra-capacitors. I get the sense that if we ever see this device it is a long ways off.
One more thing. For ZENN's 2.5 million investment they received a 2.5% ownership in EEstor. If this is truly a viable technology that can live up to its hype that sounds awfully cheap. We're talking about something that would make Li-ion and NiMH batteries obsolete. That would have to equate to revenue in the billions.
For about the same price, you will soon be able to get a smart car. Granted the smart will not get close to 245 mpg (what electric rate is that based on?), but 40 mpg plus is pretty good. The smart can, if you choose, also be driven anywhere at normal speeds and is backed by a real automotive manufacturer with a long history and reputation to protect.
Well the Zenn is marketed strictly as a "city car". I agree 25 mph is a bit too slow--I'd prefer 35 as that is the speed limit on just about any city street in America.
The Smart makes no sense whatsoever...it's expensive for what you get and the real world fuel mileage is not very impressive.
They really need to put the Smart to sleep before it loses more money.
Yeah, that alleged capacitor is a long timing coming, ain't it? "They" say they are "testing it".
But I brought up the ZENN because it's for sale here and now, and that's the present state of "real" EV cars that look like cars and aren't golf carts.
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
ZAP is achieving range by cutting weight drastically, and it shows in the final product; however, I've not driven either the Xebra or the Zenn yet but I intend to do this, so I'll let you know what I think in a comparo.
I agree. That would actually make the cars safer. These cars can still be hit by other cars travelling faster. In fact if they are only going 25 mph on 35 mph streets this likelihood has probably increased.
They also say they are getting celebrity treatment from passers-by. That's a good sign, since positive reinforcement from the community is a great selling point and market motivator.
MrShiftright
Visiting Host
Well, I was referring to the owner Mercedes, or Daimler-?, or whatever the correct corporate entity is called now.
Personally there is no way I would buy either the smart, this Zenn thing, or Zebra :sick: ...I'm just saying, if I had to choose one of them the smart would likely be the preferred one.
I thought the Zenn pretty much did look like a golf cart (and the specs are kind of golf-cartish, too)...or at least a golf cart/automobile hybrid .
I guess I am still waiting to see a real electric car that can be bought now.
"The Air Car uses compressed air to push its engine’s pistons. It is anticipated that approximately 6000 Air Cars will be cruising the streets of India by 2008. If the manufacturers have no surprises up their exhaust pipes the car will be practical and reasonably priced. The CityCat model will clock out at 68 mph with a driving range of 125 miles.
Refueling is simple and will only take a few minutes. That is, if you live nearby a gas station with custom air compressor units. The cost of a fill up is approximately $2.00. If a driver doesn't have access to a compressor station, they will be able to plug into the electrical grid and use the car’s built-in compressor to refill the tank in about 4 hours.
The compressed air technology is basically just a way of storing electrical energy without the need for costly, heavy, and occasionally toxic batteries. So, in a sense, this is an electric car. It just doesn't have an electric motor.
But don't let anyone tell you this is an "emissions free" vehicle. Sure, the only thing coming out of the tailpipe is air. But, chances are, fossil fuels were burned to create the electricity. In India, that mostly means coal. But the carbon emissions per mile of these things still far outdoes any gasoline car on the market.
Unfortunately, the streets of North America may never see the Air Car, though; it's light-weight, glued-together fiberglass construction might not do so well in our crash tests. However, that does not mean the Air car is confined to the sub-continent. Nègre has signed deals to bring its design to 12 more countries, including Germany, Israel and South Africa."
http://green.yahoo.com/index.php?q=node/315
This is part of what I meant when I mentioned above about standardization of autos. Personally, I think we should maybe let some high mileage vehicles in that aren't quite up to snuff on our standards. After all, motorcycles aren't illegal. If you want to make it an adults only car, then so be it...see if it can pass muster on that basis.
I like how they poo-poohed it on emissions basis. We get a lot of power from hydro here in the PNW. Eslewhere, it is much easier to build renewables and nukes or cleaner coal. wwarming or not, reducing foreign oil is my concern.
That all said, something about compressed air propulsion brings up a visions of seal failures.
And of course, it isn't available NOW.
The "fuel" cost come out to about 1.7 cents per mile. This is equivalent to 90-175 mpg (using $1.5-3 per gallon for gasoline/diesel price, excluding tax). I don't know that this is all that impressive if this is another unsafe, glorified golf cart.
Some real cars sold in Europe can get what, maybe 60 mpg right now. I'd imagine without safety standards and all, 100 mpg is probably doable for a very light, underpowered, golf cartish vehicle with an IC engine.
Tesla and/or Pheonix seem to be the most likely candidates to put out a "real" electric vehicle, one that is something like what we are all used to driving.
For example the Tesla car is 13 feet long and about 2700 pounds, with 92.6 inch wheel base. This is smallish, but similar to the size of some existing small sport coupes and it looks like a real car as well (at least in pictures).
MrShiftright
Visiting Host