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The pioneer in bringing production hybrid vehicles to market has just achieved a major new milestone. As of the end of May, Toyota has sold 1.047 million hybrid drive vehicles around the world since the introduction of the original Prius a decade ago.
AND THIS GEM:
"Eventually, everything will be a hybrid," according to Jim Press, president of Toyota Motor North America.
So if that guy is saying that and Toyota is losing money on the hybrids, he is either:
A. vastly uninformed about the financial side of the company, or
B. a great liar, or
C. a complete flake, or
D. a victim of incorrect job promotion.
I think it's ludicrous to think that Toyota could possibly be doing anything but making money on their hybrids.
PS This just hit the wires after my last sentence, so I added it:
Toyota dropping 2008 Camry Hybrid base price by $1000:
Would they lower the price if they were ALREADY in the red? NOT!!
The question in my mind is whether the hybrids help them capture market share or if they are just selling against their own products. I dunno, haven't a clue.
We have to remember that the Prius is a "real" car in size, seating capacity, storage and comfort. It has vastly more appeal than a SMART in that regard. I can't say I had a thrill driving them but they are very comfortable and appeal to people who normally don't think much about cars.
As far as Jim Press making all those bold statements. I don't think he speaks for the big guys at Toyota. He is a white fall guy. Even Bill Ford with a lot more stroke at Ford than Press has with Toyota, made the same bold statements about putting hybrid drive in all their cars. Neither company has added any significant hybrids to the fleet. The LS600h will be a total sham. Who needs a $30k hybrid add-on that loses 3 MPG out on the highway? The GS450h is not selling. The HH & RX are both discounted heavily in the major market CA.
It is all political rhetoric to get the greenies fired up to go out and help sell cars.
But Prius made American automakers look like clueless, flat-footed fools in the eyes of the public, which of course was the intent.
Marketing "green" is extremely profitable in cars, food and lots of other areas. Any business who thinks marketing "green" isn't the way to go is going the way of the dinosaur IMO.
I agree you need to be green to be seen.
I asked and I recieved .
It was new (7 mi on the OD), it is a 6 not a 3 and it is not "stripped"...it's a 4 cyl SVE automatic. There was a $2000 rebate. It was the end of a slow month, I guess...but others have gotten similar deals.
That's what I really want...an EVO hybrid!
BTW, gas milage is actually 24 mpg on the sticker, 21 is the estimate under the new system. EVO is 19 city under old system so actually 5 mpg less.
So anyway, for me the $6000 savings over a prius covers all gas for about 48,000 miles and it would take maybe 96,000 miles to break even...assuming the prius would double my mpg. I think a hybrid or electric would need pay for itself in no more than about 5 years or maybe 50,000 miles to interest me.
I don't think a PHEV could hit 84 mpg, but I don't know.
IIRC, something like a cost equivalent to getting 100-300 mpg on gasoline is what I came up with, depending on the assumptions I used. Since fuel for my gasoline car costs 10-15 cents per mile and my electric rate is about 10 cents/kwh, it must have come out around 1 to 2.5 cents per mile for the electric...or about 4-10 mi. per kWh.
What's it's really coming down to isn't so much that the motors and electronics aren't turning the electricity into work/movement efficiently enough, it's that the fuel tank (battery capacity) is too small to be practical at this point. It would be great if the battery could be recharged as fast as you can refuel a car now, but that's another issue that's related to the capacity issue.
PF's Alternate Route
Yes and it would be great if you could refuel a car as cheaply as you can recharge a battery pack. It would be great if an ICE required as little maintenance as an EV. It would be great if an ICE ran of a fuel that could be domestically produced. Granted an EV will be a trade-off, a good one from my perspective. Some people will say that they'd rather spend the extra $30 and be able to get in and out of a gas station in 5 minutes. For other people saving the $30 will be worth the inconvenience of the longer recharge time. Keep in mind that this will only be an issue during long trips. The vast majority of the time you will have recharged at night while your car's just sitting there anyway. This might take all of 15 seconds to plug-in, which will probably be less total time then is spent going to the gas station every 2 weeks.
"57% of Prius owners said they bought the gas-saving hybrid because 'it makes a statement about me'. Only 36% cited higher fuel economy as a top reason for buying the car"
Sure, but that should still be followed by something like "that is equivalent to 100 mpg, if gasoline costs $3 per gallon". I think I currently spend about 2-3 cents per mile on maintenance on top of 12 cents per mile for gas.
I believe 2-3 cents per mile on maintenance is probably low and based upon nothing breaking down. Edmund's TCO puts the 5 yr (75,000 mile) mile maintenance costs for a 4 cyl Camry at $4,454, almost 6 cents per mile and that doesn't include repairs. I'd guess that for an EV you could cut this figure in half.
Not likely. You must account for the cost of battery replacement. The 100+kmi life of hybrid batteries does not relate to the EV or PHEV since hybrids operate their batteries in the upper 50% charge realm which is essential for extended life. The very nature of any vehicle that attempts to maximize the EV operating mode will involve much deeper discharge and MUCH shorter battery life.
Unless and until the magic battery is actually in production, EV operating costs will remain many times that of the vehicles they seek to replace.
If the majority of purchases are for irrational reasons, then any attempt at logical discussion is futile.
By many times I'll assume you mean at least 2. So if a typical ICE costs about 18 cents per mile to operate than an EV will cost at least 36 cents per mile to operate or $36k over 100,000 miles. Not likely. There are people right now driving EV conversions with lead acid battery packs. These packs need to be replaced every year (15,000 miles) for a cost of under $1,000. So in 100,000 miles they will have spent around $6,000 on batteries and at most $3,000 on electricity. Where does the other $27,000 come from?
Is it your opinion that any purchase that doesn't pass some cost analysis is irrational? People make frivolous purchases all the time. To do otherwise would result in a very austere and boring existence.
I will speak from my own experience as an EV owner. I drive an EV conversion. These are inexpensive (under $5000 for a used one, in my case) and extremely cheap to drive. Here's a link about finding cheap EVs (my own EV is pictured at the top):
http://squidoo.com/cheap-electric-car
My battery pack cost me $850 (not including deposits) and, with appropriate care, lasts for about 20,000 miles, or about 4 cents/mile. Lead-acid batteries can be killed at 10,000 miles with poor care, or nursed to 30,000 miles, but for reference, here's a patent link that mentions lifespans for various traction battery types, including my 20,000 mile number:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5258242.html
My EV gets about 4 miles per kilowatt-hour, a common number for EVs. Here's a link mentioning this same number for the Toyota RAV4 EV:
http://baltimorechronicle.com/2005/083005Korthof.shtml
Finally, I am using a split electric rate - available in many places - so I can get cheap overnight electricity. Here's a document showing my 3 cents/KWH rate. It's rate D1.7 in this document:
http://my.dteenergy.com/myAccount/pdfs/rates.pdf
That makes my cost for electricity under 1 cent per mile. With battery replacement, then, my total cost per mile is 5 cents.
Contrast this to gasoline. An 18mpg car, with gas at $3.60/gallon, costs 20 cents per mile, JUST FOR GAS. That's FOUR TIMES more expensive. Substitute a super fuel efficient car, and lower gas prices, if you like. It's still easily half as expensive to fuel an EV. And the EV needs almost NO maintenance. No oil changes, coolant, tune-ups, filters, in fact, no engine maintenance at all. Electric motors have just one moving part, and can last decades. I would argue, in fact, that my battery replacement cost is less than the maintenance costs on a typical car.
You know the best part? I use my EV for business miles, which means I can take the standard IRS deduction of 48.5 cents per mile - on a car that costs me 5 cents/mile to drive. The government is paying me to drive my car!
If the Prius buyer feels it makes a "statement about me", this is no different than the Aspen condo buyer or the buyer of Versace items---just a different context. This is all "feel good stuff".
Interesting choice of terms. If a person primarily uses his vehicle to go to and from work and run errands and an EV can accomplish this I'm not sure that represents a "very limited" subset of ICE applications. It's the times that an EV is not suitable that represents the more limited subset.
Pretty neat hat-trick if you ask me.
That survey result doesn't suggest that people want to BE "green" but rather wan't to be SEEN as green. A huge difference! Doing a good thing is rational and it doesn't matter whether anyone else knows it.
I suspect that would be true for most people considering an EV. I also suspect that most of these people would find themselves driving the EV the majority of the time because it would usually be the superior choice for the given application.
Whether it's REALLY doing anything, well that's a whole other discussion. Americans are apt to think they are "doing" something about their drinking problem by listening to motivational cassette tapes while drinking. :P
As my good friend once noted in his newspaper column "why am I at a fund-raising party to save first-growth forests while standing on the host's redwood deck?"
Motorcycles.
Motor homes.
Why are these for sale? If these markets can be served, why not also serve the demand for EVs?
Furthermore, what if one of my 'needs' as a driver is the need to drive inexpensively, and to no longer buy gas? The EV fills this need best.
Not all drivers have the same needs.
Depends on your perspective. Most of my driving happens in the EV. I drive the wife's gas car occasionally, so that's the exceptional case, for me.
Therefore, attributable to the ownership of the wife's gas car, are the costs of maintaining two vehicles rather than one.
If we both had EVs, we could get by with renting a gas-powered car once every month or two, or taking public transportation. I think this would work for many people.
Welcome to America!
Seriously, polls can be misleading. Perhaps that was one reason of several, or that statement encompassed many things in the minds of the responders.
I would agree. However I have tried my whole driving life to find the vehicle that satisfied my every need. I usually end up with another PU truck. Yet it lacks the ability to travel with others in comfort. I propose there is no perfect vehicle for every need. I think an EV would be great for all my 3 mile trips to town.
I'm SURE someone has thought of this one before, but I happened to be in the room when my daughter was futzing with her digital camera and changing batteries from the charger to the camera.
A standardized, easily changeable battery pack would help. If you could get 100 miles on a full charge, then pull up to a "battery station" where you would swap to a fully charged battery pack in a few minutes and go on your way. The pack you drop off would be charged at the station for whoever came along next.
I know, complications to overcome like storage of battery packs and thing like that, but we're going to brainstorm a bit here! :shades:
Possible but unlike propane tanks, a defective unit exchanged for a good one results in a massive loss for the vendor. And testing a depleted battery pack is not very easy.
Big snag here.
As of now, the PHEV (as promised) is the more cost efficient way to go, and offers all that an ICE does and more.
I think the new emerging battery technology is sufficient to do it. First on the list are Altairnano batteries, since these are already available. The Phoenix EV, for instance, can charge in 10 minutes, and the battery pack should have a long lifetime, over 200,000 miles. ( http://phoenixmotorcars.com )
Zap also has two cars planned using Altairnanos. One of them, the Zap-X, has a 350-mile range, and puts out over 600 horsepower. ( http://www.zapworld.com/ZAPWorld.aspx?id=4560 )
Next to this, I am most excited about the EESTOR ultracapacitor-based powerpack. These also allow extremely fast charging, and should be cheaper to manufacture than any other battery technology. EESTOR has a partnership with ZENN Motor Company, of Canada ( http://zenncars.com )
On the hobbyist and car converter front, I am excited about low-cost LiFePO4 batteries from China that some hobbyists have been able to obtain. Link: http://everspring.net/product-battery.htm
Aside from the above, I think the fastest way to get EVs accepted into the hands of drivers is battery leasing. Without the batteries, electric cars would be cheaper than conventional autos (electric motors are much simpler to manufacture than gas engines.)
Drivers would then pay a fee for battery usage according to usage, which would be similar to the gasoline buying experience (except cheaper.) Battery rotation would then take place at the dealer, so that drivers always have good batteries, and bad batteries are promptly recycled.