I agree with lalane, don't lose any sleep over the knock. I had another type of "funny" noise in my 99 Tahoe, same story, had no problems and my daughter is now driving the 99. It could have something to do with the aluminum block and steel rods and pistons, expansion, etc. Take care
thanks for the advice. Tomorrow, I start my complaining!! Will keep everyone posted! Since the dealership has already had my Denali XL for 3 days, I feel like I'm past due on getting a replacement transmission on a vehicle with only 12,500 miles!! thanks again everyone for your responses.
That annoying cold-start knocking noise is a result of a lack of oil supply to the valve lifters. Due to this lack of oil, the "starving" lifter becomes spongy, which, in turn, causes valve lift loss, i.e. the valve never makes full valve lift. Through the design of the camshaft, the engine valve is supposed to seat softly on the valve seat. This portion on the cam lobe that facilitates this soft closing is referred to as the closing ramp. If the valve lift is lower than what the cam assumes the valve lift to be, the valve will be closed before the ramp portion of the cam is reached. This causes the valve to seat very hard. The noise that you hear is valve noise...from the valve slamming against the valve seat.
As you may have guessed, I am a valve train engineer. There are ways to combat this cold start noise within the design of the lifter...I'll spare you the details. As a consumer, about the only thing that we can do is use 5W-30 oil (the normal recommendation). The lower viscosity will allow the oil to reach the lifters faster.
I'm an ME so I generally understand such things. I have never heard anyone ever describe a solid lifter as 'spongy' due to lack of oil though. Care to clarify as to how a solid object becomes 'spongy'? Is that a technical term that you guys use I do agree that a large amount of engine noise on start-up is typically from the valve-train not having enough oil flow, but I never thought about any of it being caused by spongy materials.
Very interesting response to the knocking issue.... so tell me, if you ARE a valve train engineer and know about the problem, then you must work for FORD!!!! Just kidding. The statement you made sounds like it's a design problem. Nothing we can do but use the recommended oil, then so be it. That's why if Toyota/Lexus or any of the German manufacturers ever comes up with a DXL equivalent, it will a sad day for GM/GMC.
The lifters are hydraulic. Air is compressible, while oil is not. The ingestion of air in the high pressure chamber of the hydraulic portion of the lifter leads to this spongy condition that I described. The sponginess is not due to the materials...but the substance that is being compressed. Yeh, spongy is not the most technical of terms, but it's the only word I can think of to describe it.
There are many engine variables involved in the "lack of oil to the lifter" condition. When one or some of these variables are in their worst case conditions, this can cause the cold-start engine knock. Thus, the reason for engine to engine variation...no two engines (and their respective components) are the same in dimensional accuracy.
One thing that I should have mentioned...when the cold, viscous oil finally makes it to the lifter -the lifter needs to be able to ingest it. If the check valve inside is sized such that it has a hard time ingesting thick oil, then this will extend the noise duration.
As I mentioned, i have the same lifter noise upon start up. Now when u refer to Cold, do u mean really cold as in Chicago weather? I winter in South Florida, where i am now. When i wake up and go to the car it might be 75 degrees, is this still considered "cold?" And, yes lalane, I agree, if toyota ever makes a vehicle to compete with the Denali XL, they could lose some market share. Conversely, when i read some of the complaints on the Sequoia forum, and their problems, I wonder if that vehicle is any better. Maybe not....they can't make em perfect. Thanks. larry
We've had our DXL for 7 months and have been to the dealer a few times for some minor things. As of today, we wouldn't trade this thing for any SUV out there. Hopefully this feeling won't change with time. My family (including me) has driven Hondas since the late 80's...we're all waiting to see how this thing performs over time.
Regarding cold start noise, the "cold" refers to the fact that the engine has not run for an extended period of time, taking on the temperature of its environment. When the engine sits, the oil in the block drains down to the oil pan; upon start-up the oil needs to get from the oil pan to the lifters. Whether it's 0 degrees or 75 degrees, the same thing needs to happen. The colder temps will make this task even more difficult to achieve due to the thicker oil.
Thanks for the info, that's what i thought, juat wanted a confirmation. I agree, i luv the Denali and wouldn't trade it. Better things are sure to come, hopefully
Anyone have recent success in negotiating with GMC dealer in MD on 02 Denali XL. Read on previous posts about dealer in Seaford DE, offering $300-500 over invoice. Looking for similar deal in or near Baltimore. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Although I'm in Calif... you might want to log on to www.gmc.com, click onto their GM BUYPOWER and get quotes from multiple dealers in your area. I used this to get a good deal on an '02 Denali last month after getting multiple quotes on a Black Denali & sunroof. The prices I was quoted varied greatly depending on area but I ended up paying about 300 over invoice (cashback included) and could have paid about 400 under invoice if I wanted to drive 500 mi to pick it up!
What is nice is that all you need is your email address to submit a request, so that you dont have all those dealers trying to call you....it's really hassle-free!
Does anyone here know when the pricing and information about the 2003 GMC Yukon XL/Denali XL is supposed to be out? Does anyone know if the Quadrasteer will be offered on the DXL or just the 3/4 ton models?
I am deciding between waiting and getting the '03, or negotiating on the $45,362 (before rebates) I got from Hertrich GMC. What do you people think?
I would expect to see it on the DXL before the 3/4 ton Yukon XL or even the 1/2 ton Yukon XL. There has been some talk of it being a standard feature on the DXL, like it's cousin Sierra Denali. My GMC dealer just got 5 Sierra Denali on the lot I test drove one and man does Quadrasteer make a HUGE difference!! It chops you turning circle by 10 feet!! I never felt the control like I did in that truck either, turning corners changing lanes, it makes you feel like you own the road, really!! My dealer says that he heard it was going to be available on DXL, but he couldn't confirm it being standard equipment.
I own a Yukon Denali XL 2002 and recently a funny thing happened while I was driving. After coming to a stop and accelerated slowly, the rear whels locked up (enough to leave two skid marks on the pavement!). It has happened twice now. For all of you that have posted with issues on their transmission - Is this the precursor to the failure of the transmission? thanks.
DCTobin and jgmilberg, thanks for the heads up re negotiating pricing, the web is a great tool!
Anyone out there with insight into changes coming for '03 DXL? Not particularly interested in quadrasteet, but other aesthetic/trim changes might be great. "Fit" and "finish" have never been strong points for GM.
Lastly, anyone with suggestions or comments (pricing/options) re extended warranty for DXL? Will probably hang on to this truck for a while , and dont want to get stuck with big problems down the line. Thanks again.
p.s. Town Hall "Host" dealer I spoke with quoted me dealer invoice cost (on 02 DXL) at approx $800 more than indicated on Edmunds pricing (invoice, msrp TMV comparison). He indicated this is "advertising" expense, included on invoice. Does this sound accurate?
To quote from our web site (at the bottom of the Pricing and Incentive Page):
"Most vehicle invoices include a legitimate advertising fee levied by either the manufacturer or regional dealer groups. Ad fees can range from less than 1% of the vehicle's MSRP to more than 3%, depending on region. Metropolitan-area dealers are more likely to charge higher advertising fees than rural dealers. When you comparison shop for a car, be sure to ask the dealers how much the advertising charge is on the vehicle."
So yeah, ad fees are "legit" (but may be negotiable). Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Do you gents think it is a "Wise" move to get something as new as the Quadrasteer before it's been on the road for several years? Personally, I would wait for awhile, u might be glad u did.
Just my opinion from experience wanting to, in some cases, being the first...
campo57: Thanks again for the advice. The minute I started raising a fuss (in the morning), I had my Denali back by the end of the day. Unfortunately, my OnStar went out on Monday, and I just took it back to the dealership today (though they promised to have it back by tomorrow!). I guess the squeaky wheel does get the grease; or is it the new transmission and OnStar?
gerggs: My transmission made a "thump" and then locked up permanently. It never "let go" of the reart wheels (maybe the front wheels too) after that. If your transmission goes out, be sure to ask when they'll have it fixed. I made that mistake.
I have to agree with larry91's advice above about waiting for the new design to prove itself, however I have to say I'm not sure I could follow my own advice since I think it would be hard to resist getting quadrasteer if I was buying my Denali XL today.
Well said and honest, i feel the same way, if it were offered, i could NOT resist. A wise man once said " do as i say, not as i do" Just make sure you get the extended warranty, you will probably need it. Just look at some of the problems GMC is having with the AWD locking up on the Denali :-)
I haven't heard that quadrasteer was on its way, but I do know the '03s will be fitted with stabilitrack as will most chevy/gmc 1/2 ton trucks. The stabilitrack currently only respond to the slippage of the two front wheels. Also for '03 (this fall) GM will be releasing the Escalade ESV (same interior size/volume as the DXL), which will have additional interior changes to set it further apart from the Denali/DXL. I will most likely trade my'01 DXL for an ESV.
Are you sure about this in '03? What will be the differences between the two, besides name plate if both will have stabilitrak? Where can I find out more? Also anyone know about the new '03 Navigator? I know its shorter but it sounds very very good. I'm very concerned about trans probs and major fit and finish concerns. Went on a test drive of DXL (I now have a too small RX300) and on this drive alone the door lock came off on drivers side and something fell off in the center console. On this $$ of a car it seems cheaply put together. Trans problems, how scary - I do not want to break down - I have little kids! Want total reliability and LX470 is just too small for 3 kids and their stuff. Also when I see all the bells and whistles on the Navigator and compare it to the DXL, well, it comes up short, in everything but size. The Sequoia Ltd is just not that nice. Any comments or help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I just picked up an '02 DXL last week. Perfect fit & finish. I love this truck.
I notice that the coolant temp gauge starts at 160. This is strange as coolant temp gauges usually start at 100. Why doesn't it start at 100? Is this coincidental with the fact that the truck warms up so quickly. I am so impressed with the heat kicking in after approximately 60 seconds in 30 degree weather. Anyone know how they do it?
I wouldn't listen to the mechanic about 3k oil changes with synthetic. What I would do if in doubt is oil tests at 3,4, and 5k intervals. That way you could prove to yourself that 3k is indeed to short a period for oil changes while using synthetic.
An oil specialist (don't want to mention his name) said that while they maybe master techs, their knowledge of oils and lubricants often lacks as compared to their mechanic skills. Same can be said of engine design.
I wouldn't be very concerned about quadrasteer on an 03 since it will already be out for a year.
There is going to be a Lexus version of the Sequoia for 03.
I purchased a Chrysler 7 year 100,000 waranty on my 01 DXL. It was substancially cheeper than the GM warranty and I was not comfortable with a 3rd party warranty that was not from a manufacturer. In addition, GM only offered 6 year 100,000, not 7 year 100,000.
How does the Chrysler warranty work for a GM product? I purchased the GM major guard for my 02 DXL and am thinking of cancelling it. I paid $2500 for the 5/100000 mile warranty. Is that too high?
I am new to this site and have read as much as I can, but haven't found a post about common rattles. I currently have a 02 DXL, I had a 01 DXL before that. It seems to have a rattle in the dash when going over "wavy" or "studder bump" roads; sounds like plastic bouncing off of plastic. I had the same problem in the 01 and am noticing it in the 02. Any thoughts? Dealer packed the 01 with more foam, to no avail. It sounds like it is coming from the center, just above the on star buttons, or in the cup holder area - hard to pin point. Past posts referenced the heat shields, but I don't know if it is the same rattle. Please help as it is driving me crazy. Thanks.
Look at http://www.capperautocenter.com/ They sell GM, Chrysler and maybe Ford warranties. Their warranty cost is $200-$300 over dealer cost for each warranty. I paid $100 over dealer cost on the warranty I purchased. I found that the GM warranty was close to double the cost of the Chrysler warranty for comparable coverages on my DXL. I also wanted 7 year 100,000 mile and first day rental car reimbursement not offered by GM. I also felt the $50 deductible was optimal for my situation and GM only offered $0 or $100.
As far as service goes, it will operate in a similiar manner. The dealer I purchased from sells both GM and Chrysler, so that will make it a litle easier. I think the GM warranty would be a little easier to deal with since it is the same manufacturer. I was willing to pay extra for the GM warranty, but not nearly as much as was being asked.
Use the price on Capper to negotiate with your dealer. I believe Capper marks up GM warranties by $300 and Chrysler by $200.
Chrysler's pricing is a much flatter pricing structure. All vehicles are the same for the same coverage with adds for 4 wheel drive, turbo, etc (there are a few exceptions). GM rates each vehicle. I think the GM warranty would be priced more competively on some vehicles.
The shortened navigator mentioned above is called the Aviator (beefed up explorer) and will be sold in addition to the the new '03 Navigator. There will not be a Lexus version of the Sequoia. What is coming out is the GX470, which will actually fit in between the LX and RX (in size and price). ESV and DXL are can be found on www.autoweek.com Aviator and GX 470 can be found on here in the Auto Show web pages.
The IPC can display the accumulated engine run time hours using the VF display when the cluster is in the LOCK or ACC position. The IPC stores the accumulated engine run time hours in a non-volatile format. The accumulated hours will not change if the battery was disconnected or removed. When the ignition is OFF and the trip reset switch is pushed in and held for more than 4 seconds, the IPC will display the accumulated hours for 30 seconds. The hourmeter will reset to 0.0 when 10,000 hours are accumulated.
I have seemed to narrow it down to the rear of the vehicle. The sound is more of like waving or tapping on a baking pan. Way off from my initial thoughts. I noticed that the drivers side rear bumper has 3 loose bolts up inside the bumper. I am unable to get to them to tighten, a warranty fix. Also it seems pretty loose in the hatch panel around where the button is to open the glass. I am going to have both of those looked at. Do you guys have any similar problems or thoughts on mine? Thanks.
What have you done to yours? I installed the K&N. I am looking into a hypertech computer and a cat back exhaust (Gibson or B&B). Any opinions on performance mods? Thanks.
HELP! My transmission on my '02 Denali XL is acting up like rattlesnake in a mongoose zoo! Major hesitation - and once it wouldn't go! What's going on with my beloved XL?!!
This forum is starting to sound like the Excursion forum with all these problems.I had a hesitation problem. This was a few isolated instances and lucky for me, it went away and hasn't happened in a while. I'm keeping my fingers crossed
well, the hesitation started at around 2400 or 2500 miles. guess what: the transmission seized up today, at 6849 miles. Been runnin' around all day just to make sure I have my XL back in a few days; don't want to be stuck like that other guy (2 weeeks?!).
Got my first hesitation this morning in a long while, was on a slight incline, started to proceed and there she was. Tranny engaged in a split second. Got 17K mile on my DXL. Also started to feel a tapping sensation in the steering while veering right or turning right. I heard this is a common problem with the Yukon's/Tahoes/Subs with 4 X 2's. Anyone experience this yet????
I have installed K&N filter, Hypertech Power Programmer and noticed a little improvement in acceleration. I have actually not towed since the Hypertech installation but really do not expect dramatic improvements.
After the K&N and Hypertech installations, my average MPG went from 15.8 to 12.7 on 92 octane. Needless to say this has not made me very happy. I have played with the programmer, making adjustments and have not found any combination that will improve mileage at all. I have no way to determine performance improvements with exception to the seat of my pants and I can't say those improvements were worth the money.
I can say that I have installed HID headlamps, relays for the headlamps, foglights and doorlocks (2001 model) and am extremely happy. HID lamps in the factory projector beam housings produce very, very good lighting, almost to the point that you never need to add the high beams when traveling at night, especially in rainy weather.
I am not saying this is you, but I know a few people that have added performance things to their cars/trucks that were supposed to add fuel economy, but either it didn't or like you had the reverse effect. I found that the stuff they added like the air filter or exhaust system that makes the engine noise louder they stomp on it more to make it go and so they can hear it make noise. Try driving like an old geezer and see if it makes a difference. I added a K & N filter and did get a 0.5 MPG increase. Generally though more power = less MPG, so you really have to watch your lead foot when you do add the Hi Po stuff.
Give me details on the HID!!!! Where to buy?.....How much?.......Name of the HID manufacturer.......Installation, easy/difficult?......Wiring, did you have to modify? Does the HID work on the "auto on" mode??
HID is definitely the way to go if you can spare the $500 +/-. I shopped all over the internet to find what sounding like a good deal. Only thing is I would not refer anyone else to these guys because the service is not what they would like to claim it is. My kit came with Sylvania bulbs, ballasts and starters. The kit came with everything to simply "click" into the current wiring if the stock wiring was decent.
The stock wiring is too small so I had to direct wire the lights to the battery through a relay that activated the HID's when the lights would normally come on. I spent probably about 4 or 5 hours on it, taking my time, making sure of the mounting spots for the ballasts and starters, etc. I could have actually had it all hooked up and burning in a little over an hour if it wasn't for the beer breaks.
Seriously, installation was very simple. I don't know if you have had your headlights out yet, but it just doesn't get any simpler to remove the headlight assembly and then you have all kinds of room to route wires and mount ballasts and starters.
As far as the lead foot deal on the performance issue, that's only a few time to actually see if there was a noticeable difference in acceleration. Other than that I was just cruising on the interstate as before when checking the actual MPG. K&N air filter makes all of the sense in the world but I need someone to tell me how to get the best settings with the Hypertech power programmer to at at least maintain MPG with some performance and towing improvement.
Comments
Take care
As you may have guessed, I am a valve train engineer. There are ways to combat this cold start noise within the design of the lifter...I'll spare you the details. As a consumer, about the only thing that we can do is use 5W-30 oil (the normal recommendation). The lower viscosity will allow the oil to reach the lifters faster.
Hope this helps...
There are many engine variables involved in the "lack of oil to the lifter" condition. When one or some of these variables are in their worst case conditions, this can cause the cold-start engine knock. Thus, the reason for engine to engine variation...no two engines (and their respective components) are the same in dimensional accuracy.
One thing that I should have mentioned...when the cold, viscous oil finally makes it to the lifter -the lifter needs to be able to ingest it. If the check valve inside is sized such that it has a hard time ingesting thick oil, then this will extend the noise duration.
BTW, I work for a supplier not an OEM.
And, yes lalane, I agree, if toyota ever makes a vehicle to compete with the Denali XL, they could lose some market share. Conversely, when i read some of the complaints on the Sequoia forum, and their problems, I wonder if that vehicle is any better. Maybe not....they can't make em perfect.
Thanks. larry
Regarding cold start noise, the "cold" refers to the fact that the engine has not run for an extended period of time, taking on the temperature of its environment. When the engine sits, the oil in the block drains down to the oil pan; upon start-up the oil needs to get from the oil pan to the lifters. Whether it's 0 degrees or 75 degrees, the same thing needs to happen. The colder temps will make this task even more difficult to achieve due to the thicker oil.
What is nice is that all you need is your email address to submit a request, so that you dont have all those dealers trying to call you....it's really hassle-free!
good luck!
I am deciding between waiting and getting the '03, or negotiating on the $45,362 (before rebates) I got from Hertrich GMC. What do you people think?
Thanks,
AS
You might want to check out www.fitzmall.com -- Fitzgerald GMC in Rockville.
You can check out their inventory and price online -- most prices are at or below invoice.
They are located only about 10 minutes north of 495 off of Md. Rte 355 -- not too bad a drive from Balt.
Good luck.
Anyone out there with insight into changes coming for '03 DXL? Not particularly interested in quadrasteet, but other aesthetic/trim changes might be great. "Fit" and "finish" have never been strong points for GM.
Lastly, anyone with suggestions or comments (pricing/options) re extended warranty for DXL? Will probably hang on to this truck for a while , and dont want to get stuck with big problems down the line. Thanks again.
p.s. Town Hall "Host" dealer I spoke with quoted me dealer invoice cost (on 02 DXL) at approx $800 more than indicated on Edmunds pricing (invoice, msrp TMV comparison). He indicated this is "advertising" expense, included on invoice. Does this sound accurate?
"Most vehicle invoices include a legitimate advertising fee levied by either the manufacturer or regional dealer groups. Ad fees can range from less than 1% of the vehicle's MSRP to more than 3%, depending on region. Metropolitan-area dealers are more likely to charge higher advertising fees than rural dealers. When you comparison shop for a car, be sure to ask the dealers how much the advertising charge is on the vehicle."
So yeah, ad fees are "legit" (but may be negotiable).
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Just my opinion from experience wanting to, in some cases, being the first...
gerggs: My transmission made a "thump" and then locked up permanently. It never "let go" of the reart wheels (maybe the front wheels too) after that. If your transmission goes out, be sure to ask when they'll have it fixed. I made that mistake.
Just make sure you get the extended warranty, you will probably need it. Just look at some of the problems GMC is having with the AWD locking up on the Denali :-)
I notice that the coolant temp gauge starts at 160. This is strange as coolant temp gauges usually start at 100. Why doesn't it start at 100? Is this coincidental with the fact that the truck warms up so quickly. I am so impressed with the heat kicking in after approximately 60 seconds in 30 degree weather. Anyone know how they do it?
Thanks for the help!
Keith
Found out that the oil plug is magnetized and had about 1/8 inch of engine filings stuck to it.
Mechcanic said even though I'm using a synthetic I should still change oil every 3000 miles.
Engine has 66.4 hours.
An oil specialist (don't want to mention his name) said that while they maybe master techs, their knowledge of oils and lubricants often lacks as compared to their mechanic skills. Same can be said of engine design.
There is going to be a Lexus version of the Sequoia for 03.
I purchased a Chrysler 7 year 100,000 waranty on my 01 DXL. It was substancially cheeper than the GM warranty and I was not comfortable with a 3rd party warranty that was not from a manufacturer. In addition, GM only offered 6 year 100,000, not 7 year 100,000.
As far as service goes, it will operate in a similiar manner. The dealer I purchased from sells both GM and Chrysler, so that will make it a litle easier. I think the GM warranty would be a little easier to deal with since it is the same manufacturer. I was willing to pay extra for the GM warranty, but not nearly as much as was being asked.
Use the price on Capper to negotiate with your dealer. I believe Capper marks up GM warranties by $300 and Chrysler by $200.
Chrysler's pricing is a much flatter pricing structure. All vehicles are the same for the same coverage with adds for 4 wheel drive, turbo, etc (there are a few exceptions). GM rates each vehicle. I think the GM warranty would be priced more competively on some vehicles.
The IPC can display the accumulated engine run time hours using the VF display when the cluster is in the LOCK or ACC position. The IPC stores the accumulated engine run time hours in a non-volatile format. The accumulated hours will not change if the battery was disconnected or removed. When the ignition is OFF and the trip reset switch is pushed in and held for more than 4 seconds, the IPC will display the accumulated hours for 30 seconds. The hourmeter will reset to 0.0 when 10,000 hours are accumulated.
Campo57
L
After the K&N and Hypertech installations, my average MPG went from 15.8 to 12.7 on 92 octane. Needless to say this has not made me very happy. I have played with the programmer, making adjustments and have not found any combination that will improve mileage at all. I have no way to determine performance improvements with exception to the seat of my pants and I can't say those improvements were worth the money.
I can say that I have installed HID headlamps, relays for the headlamps, foglights and doorlocks (2001 model) and am extremely happy. HID lamps in the factory projector beam housings produce very, very good lighting, almost to the point that you never need to add the high beams when traveling at night, especially in rainy weather.
Curious,
L
The stock wiring is too small so I had to direct wire the lights to the battery through a relay that activated the HID's when the lights would normally come on. I spent probably about 4 or 5 hours on it, taking my time, making sure of the mounting spots for the ballasts and starters, etc. I could have actually had it all hooked up and burning in a little over an hour if it wasn't for the beer breaks.
Seriously, installation was very simple. I don't know if you have had your headlights out yet, but it just doesn't get any simpler to remove the headlight assembly and then you have all kinds of room to route wires and mount ballasts and starters.
As far as the lead foot deal on the performance issue, that's only a few time to actually see if there was a noticeable difference in acceleration. Other than that I was just cruising on the interstate as before when checking the actual MPG. K&N air filter makes all of the sense in the world but I need someone to tell me how to get the best settings with the Hypertech power programmer to at at least maintain MPG with some performance and towing improvement.