Have You Ever Heard of a _________?!!

ralph124c · April 1999

In teresting story about the ZIL (USSR) limousine-they are hand-built, huge cars, similar to the late 70's slab-sided Lincoln Continetals. The ZILs were for high party bigwigs and hacks only-they were never sold on the open market. They probably cost on the order of $100,000 each to build. Anyway, here's the story..in the late 1950's, when Eisenhower and Kruschev were getting (cautiously) friendly, Eisenhower suggested that Russian firms show their wares in the US.Eisenhower felt that if some trade developed, we were less likely to go to war.A NY car dealer (belive it was Victor Potamkin) thought he could market the ZIL in the USA, so ordered 12 sample cars-this drove the ZIL egineers crazy, as they couldn't sell the car in the US, without the windshield being safety glass(the Russians could not make curved safety glass).What could they do?they were risking vacations in Siberia if they refused the order! What saved them? A U2 pilot (Powers) was shot down next month, and the whole deal was cancelled!(FJ Powers was a hero to worried ZIL engineers!)

carnut4 · April 1999

My neighbor has a 58 Borgward and 2 MGB's in his garage[a '68 and a 69 coupe]. He was impressed that I even knew what a Borgward was. I remember a neighbor, back in 1959, had one of the station wagons. His wife had trouble shifting the column-mounted 4-speed. And the Goliath? I remember what they looked like-but it's been YEARS! Does anyone remember the Lloyd? Kind of like the Goliath, but smaller, and stranger? I remember it had a shift lever that came straight out of the dashboard, which you shifted just like a column mounted lever.

isellhondas · April 1999

Wow! I do remember the Lloyd!

They made a very small delivery van, didn't they?

There was a piano store in the town where I grew up and they had one of these. I remember seeing it in a junkyard a few years later.

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

Did you know that the Goliath was one of the first cars to use fuel injection? (1951--Bosch injection)

Kind of an interesting car, but I'm not so sure it was a great idea to put the gas tank right over the engine...hm....

Lloyds were also quite peculiar (like Goliath, all part of the Borgward "empire")...the domestic models had bodies made out of...of...leatherette!

It was a popular car, sold in 72 countries at one time, and in 1958 the third best-selling car in Germany.

How the mighty have fallen!

isellhondas · April 1999

Does anybody remember those early Fiats?

I think they were 400 series or maybe 600's.

When I was 16 years old, a buddy and I went to Catalina Island where they were dumb emough to rent these for sightseeing! To 16 year olds!!

They were far from new then and were pure junk.

Ours was even worse off upon it's return!

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

Don't remember any 400s....there were 500 2-cylinder air-cooled (not so great) and 600 4-cylinder watercooled, which was a pretty good little car (and worth some money these days, in the micro-car craze going on at the moment).

The neat trick these days is to buy a 600 and put in an 850 Spyder motor, then you can run 'em on the highway.

carnut4 · April 1999

I'll never forget the time my Dad and I stopped at a Fiat dealer in the Long Beach area of So. California. The salesman took us for a ride in a new '58 Fiat 600. We're driving down a four lane next to an oilfield. Suddenly the salesman veers to the left, up a steep embankment and into the oilfield, where he spun donuts around oil wells, and literally drove the xxxx out of that thing- I guess to demonstrate the rugged, tractable nature of the car. My Dad and I were scared to death, but we WERE impressed with the car. My Dad almost bought one, but later opted for a Renault Dauphine, which I later drove the xxxx out of. But that's another story....

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

I don't think it's any accident that nice Fiat 600s are now worth $3,000-5,000 and Renault Dauphines about $750. The people have voted.

carnut4 · April 1999

Actually, the Renault Dauphine wasn't a bad car-for my Dad, anyway. All of the horrible things I've heard since about Renaults didn't happen with that car. Only odd thing I wondered was why only a 3-speed transmission?

isellhondas · April 1999

We grew up close to each other. I was born and raised in San Pedro.

Remember the roller coaster at the Pike?

A buddy of mine and I were riding bicycles down a steep hill in San Pedro once. We got too close together and my pedel went into his spokes.

It sounded like someone playing a harp! Anyway, as his front wheel collapsed, he ran headlong into the rear end of a Renault Dauphine!

He went over the top, did catastrophtic damage to the Renault and his bicycle.

Of course, we got the hell out of there. It was 4:00 in the morning on my paper route.

Every porch light on the block came on. I still laugh about that, but then, I wasen't the guy that hit the Renault!

But I digress...

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

Yeah, the rest of the world wondered about the Dauphine's 3-speed trans, too.
My brother had one and had pretty good luck with it, but then he worked in the Renault Parts Warehouse in Inventory Control, so....

The Dauphine was a brilliant concept put poorly executed. At one time in 1960 Renault was outselling VW in America. A poor parts and service network and a product that could not be made right quickly enough doomed the car by the end of that year...the VW was no sterling car either, but you could get parts and you could get it fixed and it had an excellent build quality.

isellhondas · April 1999

What was the last year of the Dauphine? Remember the R10 (I think) that took it's place?

The Dauphines had a two tone horn. Some dork in our high school thought it was cool to drive down the street holding down the horn button while he flipped the two tone switch back and forth. It sounded like a british police car! A couple of the school tough guys got tired of hearing this and had a "chat" with him. He quit doing that after that.

I think the best car in that class at the time was the Volvo PV 544. Not a whole lot more money than a VW and a much better car in my humble opinion.

ajvdh · April 1999

When I was a kid, my best friend's dad had a Dauphin. The engine seized after a year. Ignoring the implied warning, he did not sell the car after Renault rebuilt it for him. About a year after that, one or more mounts let go and the tranny hit the ground. He decided to give it up as a bad deal, and replaced it with a Corvair convertible. Later, he bought my friend an e-type. I think his picture is in Barltett's "Quotations" under "glutton for punishment."

carnut4 · April 1999

Yeah we did grow up in the same area about the same time. Yes I remember the pike and the huge rollercoaster. I lived all over that area-the last 8 years in Bellflower. That's a great Dauphine story. I used to take my Dad's out and try to speed shift it. The thing would get stuck in first, and we had to limp to the nearest gas station and ask to use their hoist. We removed the cover plate from the trans, snapped the gear back in place and away we went. This happened several times, and finally my Dad asked once if I'd been "giving it the business" or "business shifting"-Don't know how he knew. Well, one day all I did was drive it over to a friend's house and back-no abuse at all. Came home, parked it in the driveway. 'Bout an hour later, my Dad asked me to come look at the car. The differential housing right around the drain plug was broken away. No plug, big break, oil all over the ground. I swore I hadn't done anything-but he didn't believe me. Got a custom welder to repair the hole, after which he sold the car some months later. Oh yeah-before he sold it, we put on a $29.95 Earl Scheib paint job. Remember Earl Scheib? I have a Volvo 544 story too-maybe some other time.

reBMW · April 1999

my dad had a '65 or '66 corvair monza spider, purple with a black top and that car was a blast. it leaked in the rain and was far too cold in the snow but with the top down driving through the D.C. suburbs in No. Va. in the mid sixties in the fall and the spring was genuniely grand and i was only in 3rd grade.

isellhondas · April 1999

If that Corvair was purple, it was a 1965.

That color was called evening orchid and was only used for one year on Chevys and Pontiacs.

It was one of those love it or hate it colors, I guess. I am one of those who really liked it!

badgerpaul · April 1999

The neighbors behind us had a 65 Impala SS in Evening Orchid with white vinyl seats, It made an already good looking car even better.

spokane · April 1999

Yes, we all knew the Dauphine needed a 4-speed...but remember the ultra-vague shift pattern? The linkage was so rubbery that you pushed the stick toward one corner of the car to select R,1,2,3. If there had been four speeds, we wouldn't have been able to find at least one of them......

C13 · April 1999

I always felt that the Beetle's shifter felt like a thin, flexible bar inserted into a bucket of rocks.

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

Renault Dauphine shift pattern (approximate)

R------
\ 2
\ |
\ |
/-----
/ |
1-- |
\
\
\--------------3

or maybe

|
|
3

carnut4 · April 1999

Actually, the Dauphine's shift pattern was like rowing a boat with the anchor out. I speak from experience[on both counts]. The Gordini model featured a 4-speed and more horsepower, but I never had a chance to try that one. Anyone? A friend of mine did have a Dauphine with that Ferlec "automatic clutch"-had a button on top of the shift lever that you pushed when shifting, without depressing the clutch. I suspect this option was responsible for a great number of the Dauphine's troubles.

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

the Ferlac was really weird...apparently the connection between flywheel and transmission was completed by magnetizing iron filings by electrical impulse from the shifter....yikes!

I never saw a Ferlac on a Dauphine, only on the later R10...if you so much as just touched the shifter, you'd go back into neutral, no matter what speed you were going. But once you got the hang of it, it worked okay for a few days...

I had a Gordini and it was a nice little car...a bit fragile, but for its day pretty preppy...I had a Gordini R8, which was quite rare even then.

ralph124c · April 1999

Speaking of weird transmissions...was the DAF (Holland) ever imported into tye USA? I believe that the basic patents on the continuously variable transmission (CVT) are still held by DAF-wonder if the HONDA CVT is a licensee . I did see one of these cars once (in a museum); understand it was a fairly popular make in its day.Of course, the car was very small, and had (I believe) a 45 HP engine.

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

Yes, DAF was imported into the US...the engine was rated in the final models (4 cylinder ohv engines instead of the old 2 cylinder air cooled) at a whopping 50 hp SAE...and could do 85 mph and 0-50 in 12 seconds...not too bad, really....

stickguy · April 1999

Volvo had a model with the CVT back in the mid-eighties (not in the US). I belive it was the 440? Anyway, I think Volvo owned or had a connection to DAF (the car may have ben a rebadged DAF?). Anyway, I saw one on the street in NJ in about 1985 (near Volvo of NA headquarters). Looked quite neat. Of course, I was probably the only person who saw it that actually knew (or cared) what it was.

C13 · April 1999

I think Volvo, DAF and Fiat cooperated on that CVT.

It's really a very clever gadget, and it may yet find greater use. Or it may be obviated by continuously variable valve timing.

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

Never saw that car...anyone know where there's a picture of one?

spokane · April 1999

In the early 70's, several Dutch people expressed to me a justifiable pride in their DAF with the CVT, but they also characterized it as an "old people's car" at a time and place in which almost all cars were standard shift. I recall seeing a DAF on display in Amsterdam which had won a major rally .....in Africa I believe.

Didn't Volvo buy the DAF group at some point?

The CVT patent issue is interesting. That technology was widely used for variable speed industrial equipment for many years, both here and abroad. Reeves was a major manufacturer. With the advent of low-priced inverters for AC induction motors in recent years, I expect this CVT market is now much smaller.

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

Yes, Volvo did buy DAF and claimed the Variomatic for themselves for a while, but the Swedes learned the same hard lesson that Daf did....the Dutch do not buy Dutch products (they made almost a million Daf cars, but had to export over 600,000 of them to sell them!), even Volvos made in the Netherlands just wouldn't sell. So Volvo dissolved the carmaking end of Daf. I don't know if the Daf truck and military vehicle operations still exist or not under some new corporate umbrella.

Interesting side note...belt driven transmissions are really an American invention.

ajvdh · April 1999

Yes, the core technology for Honda's and Subaru's CVTs are licensed from Daf. The big problem with the CVT is it's torque-limited. Remember, it's essentially a friction drive so there's only so much power you can put through it before it slips. What's really weird is the belt transfers load on the compression (push), not the tension (pull) side. "Pushing a rope" comes to mind.

spokane · April 1999

The segments of a CVT steel belt, when in line, do become pretty rigid on the return or "slack" side but I am confused by the concept that power transmission occurs in some way other than through the belt tension. AJVDH, can you elaborate or point us to something which will help clarify this?

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

Just read another funny thing about the Daf...due to the CVT, the car could go as fast in reverse as it could forward, which led to a real craze in Holland called "backward-racing", which is why there aren't too many Dafs left!

I think the whole idea behind the invention was to provide a simple automatic transmission in an economy car...in that sense, the car certainly succeeded, and has my admiration. The Daf wasn't some silly little mistake, but it was the wrong car for the times. If Honda can't make a success out of something, you can forget it I think.

ajvdh · April 1999

Can't really tell you too much more. I read a short article (which included some pictures) years ago, and it fit your description of the belt rigidity. The segments kind of "lock" under pressure, so the belt doesn't buckle.

spokane · April 1999

In post 100, ralph124c told us of a US dealer that ordered some of the USSR ZIL limousines as diplomatic relations were warming up in 1960 ...until the US's F. G. Powers U2 high-altitude plane was was shot down. Interesting; thanks, Ralph.

I recall seeing a news story about a number of US cars that were on display at a Moscow exhibition hall, perhaps an earlier step in this same automotive detente. Pictured was a 1960 Impala Hardtop, complete with 348 CID "big-block" insignia. The Russian people apparently had no particular interest in 335 HP, automatic transmissions, or the hardtop styling. Their predominant question was reported to be, "What's the purpose of the tail fins?"

Good question, I'd still like to know!

ralph124c · April 1999

You got the story a bit wrong, Spokane: The story was that Premier Kruschev was visiting the exhibit, and walked over to the Impala. He put his hands on a tail fin and asked the reporter "what does this thing do?"...a question that should have been asked by the designers who came up with this "innovation" in the first place!
Seriously, the old USSR never tried to export cars, because:
(1) they could never supply their own market(due to poor manf. efficiencies)
(2) what they made was not suitable for W.Europe or N.America
Their attempt with the "LADA"(FIAT) was unsuccessful-they sold a few in Canada, mainly because they were dirt cheap-can any Canadians enliven us with some LADA stories?

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

Actually, i've heard from up there that some models of the Lada are pretty darn tough--the "Niva" is a 4WD model that I understand is a very popular "weirdo" car to own in Canada. EVen has a hand crank as I recall.

ralph124c · April 1999

Another oddball dredged up from the memory banks...anyone heard of a "Scarab" (ca 1978)? This was a kit car, made by somebody in Milpitas, CA. It was a three-wheeler-based on a Honda motorcycle. I nearly bought one (they looked really sharp!), except for the fact that you could not license one in MA (due to some safety issue). I'd really like to hear from someone who knows the fate of this car.

spokane · April 1999

I'll take your word for it, Ralph. But, after 39 years, perhaps I was close enough.

I, too, would enjoy hearing some LADA-Fiat stories from the perspective of North Americans who were raised on Fords, Chevies, and Dodges.

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

There is one interesting story that the reason that Fiats imported into the US in the 60s and 70s rusted so badly was that the Italians, who had been cutting deals with the USSR and its satellites, had been buying cheap recycled steel from the "Eastern Bloc", which was far more rust-prone than "new" steel in the West....plausible.

stickguy · April 1999

My local autoshopper freebie paper has an ad for a 1964 Ford Anglia. R64K, good cond., needs a "LITTLE" work and paint, $3,000. Not something you see everyday. Looks to have oversized aftermarket mags on the back and a CB antenna sticking out the side.

Also a 1947 nash with a Chevy V8, but that's another story.

C13 · April 1999

Wasn't the Ford Anglia one of the on-going gags on Monty Python, like where somebody'd win a POS car on a game show or something?

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

I'm afraid you may go to your grave trying to sell a Ford Anglia for 3,000...or 2, or 1...

If the '47 Nash were a little coupe and the V-8 was artfully installed, that could be kinda nice...power steering and a/c especially...but I myself would like the exterior completely stock, especially the wheels....fake 'em out ("why can't I pass that old pile?")

stickguy · April 1999

The Nash looked like a 4 door ( I don't have the paper handy to check), with Cragers and a "Cadillac interior". I wonder if that means no more make out seats (wasn't the Nash famous for the seats becoming a bed)

Re: the Ford, the last issue of Motorweek had some pictures of versions of the new mini ( I think). One was a bread van style, that looked an awful lot like the Anglia.

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

"awful" is a good word for it. But for $500 it would be okay--you'd be the only one on your block with one, no doubt about it, and you could carry that powerful 4 cylinder flathead engine up to your kitchen sink for the 30,000 rebuilds.

C13 · April 1999

If you're asking what it's worth I'd say it depends on what you're willing to pay somebody to haul it away.

tab · April 1999

For anyone.
I was told that a Buick Reatta was made in Italy. Can this be confirmed?
Tab

Mr_Shiftright · April 1999

Dear Tab,

I think they meant the Cadillac Allante, which had the body fashioned in Italy.

The Reatta was a FWD V-6 with plastic fenders and, for its day, fairly attractive looks. The car has a small but very loyal following, and fits IMO quite nicely in the "oddballs and curiosity" section of the collectible car market, along with Allante and Delorean and Avanti and Fiero and the like. The O&C cars in the market seem to have reached a certain floor value below which they do not sink, so there is some value there, but they also never seem to appreciate further, so they are rather stagnant if one is looking for future "investment" potential.

You will find some Reatta links starting at this website:

http://www.classicar.com/bombsight/links.html

I'll try to further investigate the Italian connection, but as of now, I don't think that was the case.

spokane · April 1999

Stickguy, if the 47 Nash V8 conversion is well done, this would be a very interesting car. The 4-door would perhaps been even more of a performance "sleeper" than would a coupe. As to the back seat "sleeper," I'm afraid you're out of luck. The famous Airflyte Nash, with the dual inward-facing rear seats, reclining right front seat, and optional pneumatic mattress; was first offered for the 1949 model year.

vman · May 1999

Hi Mr_S.! You are the best source I know of to bounce this question off. I saw an old movie a few weeks ago. It was a French film; "Weekend" by Jean Luc Goddard. I don't know if you've ever seen it. The movie itself was wacky, but the main characters were driving in a black convertible for the first half of the movie. That car was really an eye catcher, and I was wondering if you knew the make and/or model. It's a long shot, but I thought I'd try. Thanks....

ralph124c · May 1999

How about coincidence! I saw the same movie, and it was as bad as I remember the first time (around 1973). I believe the car was a FACEL VEGA, which was a limited production french car. These are very rare, I believe.

Have You Ever Heard of a _________?!!

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