I'll preface this by saying that IMO it still becomes the vehicle(s) that determines whether a manufacturer is going to do well. I also believe that the gap between manufacturers on a model-by-model basis is nearly gone. With a few exceptions all midsized auto's are good bets. All trucks will do the job for which they are intended.
Shifty is correct in his numbers about the stores but one of the points that is overlooked is that often buyers continue with Toyota, Honda, Nissan despite their lack of satisfaction with the sales process;
#8887 of 9440 Sales Satisfaction Index - JD Power by akirby Nov 16, 2006 (6:42 am)
Taking just Toyota as an example, in everything they do whether it's purchasing, production, marketing or sales it's all about the highest volume at the lowest cost. This even to the point of eschewing some marginally interesting models such as sports cars which could generate more profit per sale. Generally it leaves the peripheral products to other manufacturers like Mazda, Subaru, GM, VW.
A couple of examples will illustrate: Two of the common observations about Toyota vehicles is the boring non-confrontational look and the middle of the road driving experience. Is it a mistake? No, it's intentional. Toyota's marketing department has correctly identified the subsegment where the greatest volume of buyers can be served by one or two production models ( Camry/Corolla ). This is very efficient from a production pov. ( You can choose any color as long as it's black )
On the sales side it's also about volume above all else. A typical Camry or Corolla sale will generate $100 to the sales person. In a 'traditional' environment where 8 units is the average monthly sales volume per sales person...well you get the picture. Actually in most Toyota stores the current average is 12-15 units. This is still poverty level wages for most people. That's not Toyota's concern that's the concern of the individual sales people. The Toyota solution? Work harder, with less pay per unit but much larger voluem. Become like the mega stores in CA where internet sales people often turn our 50-70 units a month per person!! ( 60 x $100 + Bonuses = six figures annually )
Going back to the JD Power survey. Looking at it from both sides. On one hand you have a typical sales person making less than a 7-11 clerk - by 50% - and a buyer looking to acquire what possibly might be some of the most sophistcated vehicles ever made. This buyer is willing and able to write a check for $25000, $35000, $55000 whereas the sales person may never have seen $5000 in the same place at the same time. Picture this: go into a McD, 7-11, Target and ask the sales person there to explain GPS, Bluetooth connectivity options, the difference between Full Time AWD and shift on the fly 4WD or compare the HSD and IMA systems. 'For $4.00 an hour? Go look it up yourself.' Yet despite this disconnect volume grows each and every month nationally.
The Toyota model between the Manufacturer and the Dealer ( 'til now ) is based on high volume but razor thin margins. Fact: When Toyota ships it's vehicles to the dealer it has just made a 'Full Sticker Sale'. What the dealer does beyond this point to move this vehicle is of no financial consequence to Toyota. Fact: Typically most Toyota's have about 8% margin above invoice that can be 'discussed' during the sales process. This means that the high volume Corolla's and Camry's might carry $1200 - $2000 margin if all were sold at MSRP. This is rarely the case as we all know. A typical sale is a few hundred dollars above invoice.
The only way to make this high volume/low margin model work is to limit the number of stores; make sure that the planning/shipping/inventory is near perfect so that each model turns in 30 days or less ( minimal carrying costs ); set it up so that stores that do not turn get fewer and fewer vehicles to sell while those that do turn faster get more and more to sell. Carrying 9 varieties of the same model which might be sold to 9 individuals over a 3-4 month span does not generate faster inventory turns. 60 Corollas in 6 colors does generate faster turns. BTW, these 60 Corollas also generate a lot more money than the 9 specialized vehicles - for everyone - if done properly.
Now to Shifty's original question.. If GM/F/DC were to cut their dealership network by 50% as an example - each store would certainly become a much more valuable asset. - would the current clients rebel if they were told the choices in vehicles were limited? - would the sales staff be willing to work for $100 mini after $100 mini? - could the manufacturers have the resolution not to over-produce, just to produce/ship exactly what the market will buy?
If GM, and Ford, Chrysler, limited the number of dealership enterprises they would lose hundred-thousands in sales. Take my area here in the Panhandle, for instance. We have a couple of Toyota dealerships. One in Amarillo, and one in Pampa. Dumas, Dalhart, Stratford, Borger, Canyon, and of course several in Amarillo, are Big 3 dealerships. This is why you see alot more Big 3 cars on the road vs. foreign.
Just my $0.02 on that.
As far as Toyota's factory to dealer profit margin that boils down to having a superior product in the publics mind. It's the "perception" more than anything else that sells. You have to give their marketing teams credit for being able to pull off the brainwashing tactic of buying good reviews in Consumer Reports, good reviews in car magazines, etc. I'm not saying the product they have is junk but spending millions on a propaganda campaigns trying to "americanize" these foreign cars is sheer genius and the american public took the hook, line, and sinker, and ran to them.
As far as Toyota's factory to dealer profit margin that boils down to having a superior product in the publics mind. It's the "perception" more than anything else that sells. You have to give their marketing teams credit for being able to pull off the brainwashing tactic of buying good reviews in Consumer Reports, good reviews in car magazines, etc. I'm not saying the product they have is junk but spending millions on a propaganda campaigns trying to "americanize" these foreign cars is sheer genius and the american public took the hook, line, and sinker, and ran to them.
OK you'll have to give a better explanation of that, Rockylee. What the heck does 'brainwashing tactic' have to do with the margins at local dealers.
The rest of your rant is UAW sobbing that things should go back to the 60's. As you've seen manymany times in other threads, and still don't understand, the Indiana-made Sienna with 90% American content is much better for the good ol' USA than the Mexican-made Fusion. Heck it's even better fot the UAW since the money stays in the local communities. Mexican-made Fusions certainly do nothing for the UAW/IBEW that's for sure. Most of the money supports Mexican communities.
Don't drink the UAW kool aid before testing it. As you very well know from other threads, Ford especially and GM to a lesser extent have already announced that they are 'Bye-Bye'. They are closing shop and moving out as fast as they can to get away from the unions. Why is that more American?
In the German press there's speculation that Daimler is shopping Chrysler to the Chinese or Renault. Chrysler, except for Jeep, is a bottomless pit currently.
They have brainwashed the public into believing their products are superior to those made by the domestics. Well when you hide your flaws which should have been recalled for about a decade and a half it's not hard to look superior. They were brainwashed by all the bought and paid for media outlets like Consumer Reports, Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Road and Track, Autoweek, etc etc etc. Goebbels would be very proud of Toyota and its propoganda machine.
Brainwashed??? Um, don't you think that if Toyota cars were were hiding some sort of "Secret issues", more and more buyers would be burned by them and never go back? Don't you think they would in-turn tell their friends and neighbors how bad their experience was.
Reality check. Toyota is growing... and fast. Sales continue to climb and Toyota has a well earned reputation in the business. How do you think it got that way huh? If something was up in the background I think the buying public would find out about it one way or the other and things wouldn't be so rosy.
The media including edmunds reported on this very site about Toyota, hiding their defects. How did you miss this ? The Japanese government punished some executives at Toyota, and if I remember right one is facing prision time or has already been sent to prision. I think there were 3 of them.
Why can Toyota buy and pay for the media when GM can't? GM supposedly has huge cash reserves, right? Why hasn't GM done likewise, if Toyota is buying people off? I love conspiracy theories, but this one doesn't hold water.
Well the american people have over looked toyota's recall scam because they get a constant dose of how superior their cars are from the propoganda machine outlets.
The difference between a Toyota Camry and a Chevy Malibu is the Camry has a more expensive grade of plastic/rubber
I'd like to believe that Rocky but in reality I think it's not that way. My personal experiences with Toyota has always been very good...both in product and service. They have raised the bar and American manufacturers can't quite seem to clear it.
Look at resale values. Buyers are voting with their checkbooks. Could there be any more forthright election?
That was one of the best explanations of automobile marketing and sales at the dealership level I've ever read anywhere! And, I second kdhspyder's thoughts on the relatively low average wage, and yet the expected high-level of knowledge, of car sales personnel. I can speak from experience, as I was a new car salesman at a Dodge/Jeep dealer, and we earned $150 for each new unit we sold. You have to move a lot of units to make a reasonable income, and in most months, it simply didn't happen.
Well the american people have over looked toyota's recall scam because they get a constant dose of how superior their cars are from the propoganda machine outlets.
This is a more likely scenario... while it's anecdotal it does correspond to many many reports in the 'biased media'.
From 1980 to 1996 I owned 5 GM/Chrysler products. They constantly put me in the shop or left my family stranded in various places. In addition they put me out of pocket somewhere in the range of $5000+. That's fact
From 1989 to 2006 I have owned 7 Toyota products. I have never been stranded even once. The total 'unexpected expenses' I've incurred in that time is $400.
The Prius is the best vehicle I've ever owned. It corresponds to the recently published findings that the two most satisfied groups of owners are Prius and Corvette owners.
Yes it's anecdotal but it does match the 'propaganda' you rail against.
Recalls? Non-issue. I've had two recalls done this year and the total effect is what? Nothing, they were done during normal oil changes. They cost me nothing and caused me no inconvenience. There's no scam.
Agreed on the Camry/Malibu, the Camry has more expensive interiors... and better engines. But yes they are very close. All midsized autos are close now.
How does all this relate to manufacturer/dealer profitability and whether GM/F/DC should or shouldn't reduce their dealer network.
Also my point....never again....when I bought my new car I took into consideration all my past experiences with domestic cars and dealerships and decided to buy a Toyota product. No regrets.
Any good CEO will tell you that if you have the good product already out there, you have a tremendous advantage over a competitor who promises that their product is as good but which is unproven.
If a person works in the automotive field - as both Mr. Shiftright and kdhspyder do - it is not necessary to actually own a vehicle to gain an informed opinion of its reliability and engineering relative to competitive makes.
And from what I've seen, there is still a pretty big gap between the fit-and-finish of the current Malibu and the current Camry.
As for the comments about "biased media:" reviewers at publications as diverse as Edmunds.com, Consumer Reports, Car & Driver and USA Today regularly rate foreign vehicles over domestics ones. These testers approach these vehicles with different criteria, yet reach the same results.
Are they all biased?
Does Toyota have all of them on the payroll? (If so, one wonders how the company has any money left over for product development.)
Toyotas aren't my cup of tea, but one can't argue with the trends of the market, which have been clear for well over a decade.
Well, in all fairness, surveys I've seen don't rate Toyota dealers too highly in that area, either.
But service at the domestic dealers is pretty much a hit-and-miss proposition. Some are good, but some are just plain awful. And that's only in the Harrisburg area...
Well we will see this and next year. The Buick Enclave's review by the media will be a good yard stick to judge. It's a best in class vehical and if it gets a poor or mediocre review that will just further prove my point.
Trying to convince a few people on a forum that GM products haven't been given a fair shake and are as good as you think they are is a waste of energy. You have a large population outside these forums that have voted against you with their hard earned dollars. Toyota is winning. 30 years of being burned is tough to recover from. Even just one bad ownership experience can assure a no sale in the future.
Witness the "Road to Redemption" pleas that were spewed all over the place.
And besides, how many people do think you think buy a car based on an Auto publication? because I've known plenty of people who have bought based on the word of mouth from other owners without EVER opening a page of a CR or C&D or a Wards or whatever.
This is the best reason to stay with a vehicle maker and/or a model. It has treated you well and it has met your expectations.
Conversely if a vehicle has caused problems or the problems have not been fixed promptly without inconvenience/cost then that's reason to leave for another brand.
I was watching some review of a car dont remember what car, but the guy said something that stuck in my head.. "one thing Honda, Toyota, and Nissan will never be able to be, and that is be AMERICAN." So am guessing he meant GM/FORD can use that to their advantage?... i can agree with that... what do you guys think?
What if.... GM moved most of it's operations to China? Ford moved most of it's operations to Mexico/Europe? Chrysler was based in Germany? oops.. Honda/Toyota made most of their vehicles in the US?
BTW, this was the subject of a old very long thread...
You mean something like "Buy American!" as a marketing tool?
Don't think that's a great idea if that's what you meant.
If you/he meant building a car uniquely American, well pickup trucks kinda sorta did that with some success, as did Corvette & Viper. I don't know how that could translate into passnger cars though. Maybe Chrysler did that with the 300M and new Charger.
#56 was really an outstanding post, factually based and well worth reading.
If anyone is interested in learning more about why Toyota leads this business, I would suggest reading The Machine That Changed the World by Womack et. al., a thorough and comprehensive study of the state of the automotive industry and the history of the business. Long story short -- the American and European makers essentially inherented Henry Ford's method of both mass production (assemble in bulk, accrue large inventories and push those inventories through the dealer network when they pile up too high). In contrast, Toyota invented the next revolution in manufacturing which the authors termed "lean production", which allowed for better quality control and more efficient operations, which in turn sped up production times, reduced the need for labor and made it easier for the lines to switch production on a dime to models that are in higher demand. (The Toyota method uses what is commonly known as "just in time" inventory control methods.)
Interesting highlight: Did you know that the original Model T assembly lines had no quality control process at all? In your typical mass production model, the same one that served as the prototype for many of the US and European plants still in operation, QC was literally an afterthought, while Toyota built it in into the entire production process from the start.
Toyota builds a better car because QC occurs at every point, including design, engineering and the subcontracting of parts. Compare that to GM, that pits suppliers against each other, and nickels and dimes them to save money -- is it any surprise who ends up with the better parts? Personally, I find their cars to be dull, but they sure know how to build a better mousetrap.
Basically, you have two essential things to take care of: cost of production (time and labor factor), and cost of storage (waste factor). JIT eliminates at least 75% of that.
If the home phone rings JUST IN TIME at 10pm I got back to my house, then the booty call has reached its intended goal.
Similarly, if an item can be produced just in time, there will be no need for inventories and the company has reached its intended goal. HOWEVER!!! Like booty calls, it has to be in "smooth operation" which is very difficult to attain.
DEARBORN, Mich. — Ford will introduce its Interceptor concept, a modern take on the muscle car, at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
Comments
Rocky
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061128/AUTO01/611280339/1148
Rocky
P.S. I'm thankful I don't have to make that decision
Rocky
P.S. They are betting the farm, for future prosperity. :surprise:
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061128/AUTO01/611280378/1148
Rocky
Shifty is correct in his numbers about the stores but one of the points that is overlooked is that often buyers continue with Toyota, Honda, Nissan despite their lack of satisfaction with the sales process;
#8887 of 9440 Sales Satisfaction Index - JD Power by akirby Nov 16, 2006 (6:42 am)
JD Power SSI Report
Taking just Toyota as an example, in everything they do whether it's purchasing, production, marketing or sales it's all about the highest volume at the lowest cost. This even to the point of eschewing some marginally interesting models such as sports cars which could generate more profit per sale. Generally it leaves the peripheral products to other manufacturers like Mazda, Subaru, GM, VW.
A couple of examples will illustrate:
Two of the common observations about Toyota vehicles is the boring non-confrontational look and the middle of the road driving experience. Is it a mistake? No, it's intentional. Toyota's marketing department has correctly identified the subsegment where the greatest volume of buyers can be served by one or two production models ( Camry/Corolla ). This is very efficient from a production pov. ( You can choose any color as long as it's black )
On the sales side it's also about volume above all else. A typical Camry or Corolla sale will generate $100 to the sales person. In a 'traditional' environment where 8 units is the average monthly sales volume per sales person...well you get the picture. Actually in most Toyota stores the current average is 12-15 units. This is still poverty level wages for most people. That's not Toyota's concern that's the concern of the individual sales people. The Toyota solution? Work harder, with less pay per unit but much larger voluem. Become like the mega stores in CA where internet sales people often turn our 50-70 units a month per person!! ( 60 x $100 + Bonuses = six figures annually )
Going back to the JD Power survey. Looking at it from both sides. On one hand you have a typical sales person making less than a 7-11 clerk - by 50% - and a buyer looking to acquire what possibly might be some of the most sophistcated vehicles ever made. This buyer is willing and able to write a check for $25000, $35000, $55000 whereas the sales person may never have seen $5000 in the same place at the same time. Picture this: go into a McD, 7-11, Target and ask the sales person there to explain GPS, Bluetooth connectivity options, the difference between Full Time AWD and shift on the fly 4WD or compare the HSD and IMA systems. 'For $4.00 an hour? Go look it up yourself.' Yet despite this disconnect volume grows each and every month nationally.
The Toyota model between the Manufacturer and the Dealer ( 'til now ) is based on high volume but razor thin margins.
Fact: When Toyota ships it's vehicles to the dealer it has just made a 'Full Sticker Sale'. What the dealer does beyond this point to move this vehicle is of no financial consequence to Toyota.
Fact: Typically most Toyota's have about 8% margin above invoice that can be 'discussed' during the sales process. This means that the high volume Corolla's and Camry's might carry $1200 - $2000 margin if all were sold at MSRP. This is rarely the case as we all know. A typical sale is a few hundred dollars above invoice.
The only way to make this high volume/low margin model work is to limit the number of stores; make sure that the planning/shipping/inventory is near perfect so that each model turns in 30 days or less ( minimal carrying costs ); set it up so that stores that do not turn get fewer and fewer vehicles to sell while those that do turn faster get more and more to sell. Carrying 9 varieties of the same model which might be sold to 9 individuals over a 3-4 month span does not generate faster inventory turns. 60 Corollas in 6 colors does generate faster turns. BTW, these 60 Corollas also generate a lot more money than the 9 specialized vehicles - for everyone - if done properly.
Now to Shifty's original question.. If GM/F/DC were to cut their dealership network by 50% as an example
- each store would certainly become a much more valuable asset.
- would the current clients rebel if they were told the choices in vehicles were limited?
- would the sales staff be willing to work for $100 mini after $100 mini?
- could the manufacturers have the resolution not to over-produce, just to produce/ship exactly what the market will buy?
Just my $0.02 on that.
As far as Toyota's factory to dealer profit margin that boils down to having a superior product in the publics mind. It's the "perception" more than anything else that sells. You have to give their marketing teams credit for being able to pull off the brainwashing tactic of buying good reviews in Consumer Reports, good reviews in car magazines, etc. I'm not saying the product they have is junk but spending millions on a propaganda campaigns trying to "americanize" these foreign cars is sheer genius and the american public took the hook, line, and sinker, and ran to them.
Rocky
OK you'll have to give a better explanation of that, Rockylee. What the heck does 'brainwashing tactic' have to do with the margins at local dealers.
The rest of your rant is UAW sobbing that things should go back to the 60's. As you've seen many many times in other threads, and still don't understand, the Indiana-made Sienna with 90% American content is much better for the good ol' USA than the Mexican-made Fusion. Heck it's even better fot the UAW since the money stays in the local communities. Mexican-made Fusions certainly do nothing for the UAW/IBEW that's for sure. Most of the money supports Mexican communities.
Don't drink the UAW kool aid before testing it. As you very well know from other threads, Ford especially and GM to a lesser extent have already announced that they are 'Bye-Bye'. They are closing shop and moving out as fast as they can to get away from the unions. Why is that more American?
In the German press there's speculation that Daimler is shopping Chrysler to the Chinese or Renault. Chrysler, except for Jeep, is a bottomless pit currently.
Rocky
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061129/AUTO01/611290416
Rocky
Reality check. Toyota is growing... and fast. Sales continue to climb and Toyota has a well earned reputation in the business. How do you think it got that way huh? If something was up in the background I think the buying public would find out about it one way or the other and things wouldn't be so rosy.
Media Bias is an crock.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13867
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/16/aw-snap-toyota-recalling-54-217-vehicles-in-j- apan/
Rocky
Do you remember these cars during the 90s?
Rocky
The difference between a Toyota Camry and a Chevy Malibu is the Camry has a more expensive grade of plastic/rubber
Rocky
Look at resale values. Buyers are voting with their checkbooks. Could there be any more forthright election?
This is a more likely scenario... while it's anecdotal it does correspond to many many reports in the 'biased media'.
From 1980 to 1996 I owned 5 GM/Chrysler products. They constantly put me in the shop or left my family stranded in various places. In addition they put me out of pocket somewhere in the range of $5000+. That's fact
From 1989 to 2006 I have owned 7 Toyota products. I have never been stranded even once. The total 'unexpected expenses' I've incurred in that time is $400.
The Prius is the best vehicle I've ever owned. It corresponds to the recently published findings that the two most satisfied groups of owners are Prius and Corvette owners.
Yes it's anecdotal but it does match the 'propaganda' you rail against.
Recalls? Non-issue. I've had two recalls done this year and the total effect is what? Nothing, they were done during normal oil changes. They cost me nothing and caused me no inconvenience. There's no scam.
Agreed on the Camry/Malibu, the Camry has more expensive interiors... and better engines. But yes they are very close. All midsized autos are close now.
How does all this relate to manufacturer/dealer profitability and whether GM/F/DC should or shouldn't reduce their dealer network.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Any good CEO will tell you that if you have the good product already out there, you have a tremendous advantage over a competitor who promises that their product is as good but which is unproven.
And from what I've seen, there is still a pretty big gap between the fit-and-finish of the current Malibu and the current Camry.
As for the comments about "biased media:" reviewers at publications as diverse as Edmunds.com, Consumer Reports, Car & Driver and USA Today regularly rate foreign vehicles over domestics ones. These testers approach these vehicles with different criteria, yet reach the same results.
Are they all biased?
Does Toyota have all of them on the payroll? (If so, one wonders how the company has any money left over for product development.)
Toyotas aren't my cup of tea, but one can't argue with the trends of the market, which have been clear for well over a decade.
But service at the domestic dealers is pretty much a hit-and-miss proposition. Some are good, but some are just plain awful. And that's only in the Harrisburg area...
Rocky
Witness the "Road to Redemption" pleas that were spewed all over the place.
And besides, how many people do think you think buy a car based on an Auto publication? because I've known plenty of people who have bought based on the word of mouth from other owners without EVER opening a page of a CR or C&D or a Wards or whatever.
Did Toyota personally pay them off too?
Conversely if a vehicle has caused problems or the problems have not been fixed promptly without inconvenience/cost then that's reason to leave for another brand.
Rocky
A few hours of seat time was more than enough to prove to me that they were wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_W_platform
GM moved most of it's operations to China?
Ford moved most of it's operations to Mexico/Europe?
Chrysler was based in Germany? oops..
Honda/Toyota made most of their vehicles in the US?
BTW, this was the subject of a old very long thread...
Don't think that's a great idea if that's what you meant.
If you/he meant building a car uniquely American, well pickup trucks kinda sorta did that with some success, as did Corvette & Viper. I don't know how that could translate into passnger cars though. Maybe Chrysler did that with the 300M and new Charger.
If anyone is interested in learning more about why Toyota leads this business, I would suggest reading The Machine That Changed the World by Womack et. al., a thorough and comprehensive study of the state of the automotive industry and the history of the business. Long story short -- the American and European makers essentially inherented Henry Ford's method of both mass production (assemble in bulk, accrue large inventories and push those inventories through the dealer network when they pile up too high). In contrast, Toyota invented the next revolution in manufacturing which the authors termed "lean production", which allowed for better quality control and more efficient operations, which in turn sped up production times, reduced the need for labor and made it easier for the lines to switch production on a dime to models that are in higher demand. (The Toyota method uses what is commonly known as "just in time" inventory control methods.)
Interesting highlight: Did you know that the original Model T assembly lines had no quality control process at all? In your typical mass production model, the same one that served as the prototype for many of the US and European plants still in operation, QC was literally an afterthought, while Toyota built it in into the entire production process from the start.
Toyota builds a better car because QC occurs at every point, including design, engineering and the subcontracting of parts. Compare that to GM, that pits suppliers against each other, and nickels and dimes them to save money -- is it any surprise who ends up with the better parts? Personally, I find their cars to be dull, but they sure know how to build a better mousetrap.
How it works:
http://195.251.232.19/student_s_Place/coursesupport/POM/Just-in-time.pdf
Basically, you have two essential things to take care of: cost of production (time and labor factor), and cost of storage (waste factor). JIT eliminates at least 75% of that.
If the home phone rings JUST IN TIME at 10pm I got back to my house, then the booty call has reached its intended goal.
Similarly, if an item can be produced just in time, there will be no need for inventories and the company has reached its intended goal. HOWEVER!!! Like booty calls, it has to be in "smooth operation" which is very difficult to attain.
http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061214/AUTO01/612140465
Rocky
Rocky
Interceptor->
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=118988
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119044
Rocky
P.S. I do like the side profile. :shades:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=119237
Looks like GM and Dodge need to get a little bigger now. :surprise:
This is an amazing truck. It would be the perfect intimidation tool to roll in the subcompact lane in California to stir the pot. :P
This truck will be quite popular here in the Texas Panhandle for farmers and people that want to improve their manhood
Rocky
alot of HD GM trucks to.
Rocky