Have You Ever Heard of a _________?!!

Mr_Shiftright · October 2001

yes, Figaro was one of those Japanese "retro" designs...rather cute, too. I think it's even newer than 80s, more like early 90s. Has some sort of high spinning micro-engine in it. Here's a photo if you want to look at it:

http://www.sportscarsrus.co.uk/artwork/current_range/figaro1.jpg

avalanche325 · October 2001

Thats It!!!

Thanks, Mr. Shiftright.

Now that I think of it, it may have been a '91 or so. I remember that when I looked at the registration card on the winshield, I was suprised to see how new it was.

The one I saw was in grey (similar to the grey on an Audi TT) with a cream roof and hubcaps. The interior was red / cream with a really nice retro (lots of chrome) look. It looked really good in grey.

andys120 · January 2002

I can remember a lot of oddball "foreign cars" that used to show up on college campuses and in suburban neighborhoods. Here are some of the ones I remember from the late 50's and early-to mid sixties: BORGWARD ISABELLA, RENAULT HUMBER SUPER SNIPE, HILLMAN MINX, MORRIS MINOR, DAIMLER SP250, SUNBEAM ALPINE, MG 1100, FIAT 1200 Spider, PEUGEOT 304/404, ELVA COURIER, DKW, NSU, TURNER SPORTS, CITROEN DS. OK, don't bite my head off if I got some of these names wrong (I still can't remember how to spell Pooz-yo). Most of these were crappy, slow, ugly and poor handling, even compared to the best-selling VW "beetle", any one rember differently? The plethora of these cars coming stateside during the years 1955-68 created a variety on American roads that hasn't been seen before or since. Let us know your thoughts about any or all of these, and any I've failed to mention.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

The Turner Sports with the Climax engine or beefed up BMC A engine was a lovely little car and quite successful in sports racing. (circa 1960). Pretty rare car, you're not likely to see one. The Elva Courier was also a very credible performance car in its class, also had a lot of success in producting racing.

The rest of that mob you listed isn't very inspiring, ranging from the harmlessly nice to the decidely odd to the pathetically incompetent.

QUIZ: Given a choice, which car would YOU choose to drive cross-country to win a large prize?

speedshift · January 2002

Then or now? I think you'd almost need a death wish to drive any of them for any distance now.

Roadability: I guess the Citroen.

Looks: Always liked the Alpine.

I have a little experience with a Fiat 1500, which I think was a later version of the 1200. A good-looking, very comfortable sports car but not very exciting.

bhill2 · January 2002

I wouldn't say that all of those cars represented death wishes. They certainly didn't have air bags or antilock brakes, but at least some of them certainly had seat belts (my '62 Volvo had shoulder harnesses, so I would expect belts in many of them). I would say that Citroen and Peugeot would be pretty comfortable cross-country rides and the Sunbeam might be a bit of fun. I would want to pack a lot of spare parts for any one of them, however.

speedshift · January 2002

I can see how you'd take it that way but no, I didn't mean they're deathtraps. I'm a guy who owned three Corvairs.

Let me rephrase what I said: you'd need to be a *masochist* to take any of those cars across country these days. Now I'll hear from someone who's just done it ;-).

im_brentwood · January 2002

Like driving a 1960 Vauxhall Velox 1,250 miles?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

Yeah, like that!

I don't know as any of those cars on the list would actually make it cross country, but maybe if you prepped the car comfortably and took it easy, some of them would make it. I'd bet on the peugeot 404, but for parts availability, I'd probably take (god help me) the Morris Minor, since it uses a lot of common BMC engine/trans/brake parts you can get anywhere.

mac24 · January 2002

"BORGWARD ISABELLA, RENAULT HUMBER SUPER SNIPE, HILLMAN MINX, MORRIS MINOR, DAIMLER SP250, SUNBEAM ALPINE, MG 1100, FIAT 1200 Spider, PEUGEOT 304/404, ELVA COURIER, DKW, NSU, TURNER SPORTS, CITROEN DS."

I remember all the above cars (currently being discussed), from when I lived in the UK. The Bogward, Fiat Spyder, Elva and Turner were less common than the others, but none were particularly rare. Not surprising really, as they were either a regular import or home produced.

So.....my question. How is it that examples of these vehicles would have ended up over here? I know that BMC and Jaguar officially imported, but would the others mostly have been 'grey' imports? If so, how would the spares situation been handled? Can't imagine Bogward spares being readily available, for instance.

speedshift · January 2002

Yes, Bill, that would be a textbook example ;-).

I open my new R&T and what do I find but Peter Egan's cross country trip in a '65 Cobra. He seemed to enjoy it so maybe it can be done.

That reminded me that my wife's first husband bought a used 289 Cobra back in the '60s. I've got the bill of sale around somewhere. He wasn't wealthy--just an office clerk in his early 20s--so at some point in the Cobra's (very short) depreciation cycle they must have been fairly affordable.

My wife had to drive the Cobra to work one day and not really knowing how to shift she just left it in first the entire trip (about ten miles on city streets). When she got to work her boss told her she had left the parking brake on.

I don't think she understands that millions of enthusiasts would gladly give up their first-born son to duplicate that trip (but with the parking brake off).

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

Well, the engine part of that car was a 60s Ford of course, dragging behind the 60s British parts. HAd it been the other way around, Peter may not have made it.

British Export--Great Britain exported huge numbers of cars to the US in the 50s and 60s to get US dollars into their own economy. I'm sure in many cases that they sent more of a certain car to the US than they built for home markets.

im_brentwood · January 2002

If I had to pick one, and assumign it was up for the trip.. I'd take the Humber as it'd probably be the most comfortable.

I HAVE driven XKEs on long trips before (NJ to Southern Illinois once)

Bill

stickguy · January 2002

I read the article too. He mentions a gas stop somewhere in the hinterlands where the gas jockey didn't know what a Cobra was, but asked if it was a Turner, and now you folks are talking about them too. Are there any of these left in captivity?

stickguy · January 2002

I was at the Phila. autoshow thiw weekend, and they had one of these in the classic/old car section. I have heard of them, but never saw one beore. Anyone know details?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

Bizzarrini designed one of the world's most beautiful and most valuable cars...the Ferrari 250GTO. He started his own company in 1962 building his "hybrid" cars, usually lovely bodies with someone else's engines. You probably saw either a Strada (1965-59)with a 5.4 Liter Chevy engine or the much tamer Europa, with Opel power.

Mr. Bizzarrini later built prototypes for Iso and American Motors.

Well, Bill, you might not make it across the US in a regular Snipe, but I'm sure a Super Snipe would be awesome...lol!

im_brentwood · January 2002

Of all the weird crap out there..

Its a Dacia 1300 (Romanian Car) with a renault Grille.

Now.. ok.. Vauxhalls are bad enough.. but a Dacia?

Hmm.. maybe I bid on it )

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=599970696&r=0&t=0

Bill

stickguy · January 2002

Bill: Better get this one before it gets snapped up. Must be the only running one in the country.

Sounds to be clean, but what was it doing for the 19 years it wasn't on the road? Seller said it's only been used for 9 years.

I better never register for Ebay or I will eventually do something very stupid (or at least my wife will think so).

andys120 · January 2002

Mr Shiftright and mac24 make some good points bout some of the oddballs I was discussing. Most of those were at one point "officially" imported and had some sort of dealer/factory organization behind them. The Rootes Group cars (Hillman, Sunbeam, Humber and others) were often "dualled" with Chrysler dealers. I think ChryCo had an interest in it at one time. I once rode in a BorgWard Isabella that belonged to the father of a Dutch kid whose dad had been transferred to NYC by Royal Dutch Shell Petro. I don't believe BorgWards were ever imported thru any dealer network. Many cars like it were brought to the US by ex-GIs, businessmen and occasionally even tourists.
Before 1968 (the advent of Emission and crash standards)it was relatively easy to bring in "gray market" cars. They needed only shatterproof (safety glass) windshields, sealed-beam headlights and maybe seat belts.

I think I'd be inclined to take the Peugeot 404 as the most comfortable for Mr. Shiftrights X-country trip or possibly the Humber Super Snipe which was a kind of British Buick.

Also, yes the Turner and the Elva did achieve a great deal of success in stateside Sports Car racing. I believe the great Mark Donohue raced one successfuly.

Going in another direction, anyonw remember when Mercedes cars were sold along side Studebakers and Packards in thge early fifties. Evidently S-P bought the distribution rights before they went under.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

Yes, it was a brief marriage, between Mercedes and Studebaker, strictly for distribution purposes. Back then, in the 1950s, Mercedes sedans were faily dowdy and modest cars, as were Studebakers, so the idea made some sense. But Mercedes was getting stronger and stronger and Studebaker weaker and weaker, and I suspect Mercedes didn't want any further association with a loser.

focusmatt2 · January 2002

I remember seeing an article on that odd marriage in a car magazine recently.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

The Borgward was actually a nicely built car, certainly better than British counterparts in that price class.

In fact, with the proper marketing and good management, Borgward could have been the BMW, since it was poised to compete with BMW in the sport sedan category and had equivalent quality. But the company was not run by visionaries. Borgwards even raced in Formula 2 in 1959, quite successfully. Carl Borgward was, it seems, some kind of eccentric tyrant and he destroyed the company by 1961. I guess he felt that he built it, he could tear it down. And he did.

northstart · January 2002

Originally I was joining this discussion to ask about an American Ford however, I found several other points of interest.

One point that was made was how many British built cars were never intended for sale in the UK, this is very true. I watched a documentary last year chronicling the British motor industries following WW2.

They pointed out that during the fifties, around 70% of car production was aimed at the American and Australian markets, and out of the remaining 30% intended for the UK market, almost 72% was built by Ford.

As for Hillman, Humber ETC. Chrysler took control of these companies during the late sixties (I think) and although they retained the particular branding they were sold though Chrysler dealerships along side Chrysler badged cars.

I once owned a Hillman Hunter GT. This car (from what information I could gather) was designed for the American market and was not intended for sale in the UK. This could be seen at once as the car shared very little with the standard Hunter.

It wasn't a true right hand drive car, rather a left hand drive converted. Engines, interior, dashboard, wheels etc were all different from the UK Hunter. Engine parts where the most difficult as they had to be purchased from Chrysler and came with a Made in the USA stamp. The car was reliable and handled quite well, although I eventually sold it for a British Ford Cortina.

However, in 1999 I discovered that the car is now quite valuable as this type was only produced for about a year after which Chrysler switched to the British built car with the standard interior etc.

Now back to my reason for visiting. I am trying to find any information regarding a prototype Ford built in the late sixties; early seventies name the Mach 2. From what I gather it might have been mind engined but used some Mustang body components.

Any Idea's?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

I think the Hillman Hunter may have been produced for the Canadian market but in America we called them Sunbeam Rapier. They were not much noticed here and there is virtually no interest in this car in America today. I believe in the UK, however, the car is better thought of and might be worth something, but in the US nobody knows what it is or cares, I'm afraid.

northstart · January 2002

Yer! Its never built up much of a following over here either and most people don't even no of it. In its day it was considered an old mans car, even though Chrysler had some success in international Rallying. And, I think this image could be seen in the later Brit based GT, which gained a detuned engine, softer springs, a change in gearing and an overdrive transmission. It ended up being nothing more that a shopping cart with a few extra gauges.

However, for those that are now interested in the car, its the original GTs that hold the value due to it low production run (about 1000).

Its styling was also considered outdated, especially when compared to Fords coke bottle styling (which was to primary reason for me selling to car) and once the fuel crisis began its horrendous fuel economy (about 12 - 15 mpg) probably put the final nail in its coffin.

lemko · January 2002

...a car built in the early '70s called the Austin Marina. Over in Britain, however, it was known as a Morris Marina. The early '70s Plymouth Cricket was known as a Hillman Avenger in Britain.

northstart · January 2002

Ah!! The Marina, I remember it well. For some reason, all of the ones I can remember were a dreadful sandy yellow colour. Although later models became known as the Ital. I remember they had unpredictable handling in wet conditions.

I found this out when I had a near death experience in a friend car. Complaining that it vibrated at about 50mph I took it for a spin and found it didn't corner to well in the wet. After being encouraged to push it a little by its owner on a bendy stretch of road, I set it up for a bend I new well, suddenly the front began to slide away, which give the impression that the inside wheel was trying to tuck itself under the car. It gripped monetarily throwing the rear of the car around 360 degrees and came to rest on the grass verge. My impressions of the car dropped considerably that day.

As for the Plymouth Cricket, this is a name I've come across several time but never realized it was the Avenger. I don't know if a similar model was sold in the USA but the best Avenger over here was the Tiger, apparently it made quite a good base for a rally car being able to give Fords mighty BD engined Mark 1 & 2 Escorts a run for their money. However, Chrysler having been bitten with the Hillman Hunter GT never really give it the backing it deserved. Plus, within a few years they had the superb Sunbeam Lotus, which was sold under the Talbot brand.

Unfortunately, Chrysler pulled out of Europe shortly afterwards selling the Talbot range to Peugeot who quickly dropped the Sunbeam Lotus.

pat84 · January 2002

I had a friend in college that drove a Goliath. It was German car about the size of a large VW bug and had a 4 speed on the column. Only one I have ever heard of.
I had a college professor that drove a Daimler SP250.
I remember the Sunbeam Tiger, the Lancia Flavia and the Facel Vega. ( It was a French sports car not a Chevy). There was also a Griffith sports car I believe it was British. Has anyone ever heard of an MG Magnette. It was a 4 door car It had a leather and burled walnut interior.
I always thought the Austin Healey 3000 was a really good looking car.

focusmatt2 · January 2002

I need help.

Can someone tell me what a Talbot Matra Rancho looks like? It's a British car, but I have never seen one and want to know any details that anyone could provide.

Thanks!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

Here you go....not British, but French.....Talbot is former Simca. You can tell it's French, because it's weird.

andys120 · January 2002

as an attractive but old-fashioned little car that was around in the early sixties. Couldn't tell you anything else about it. It was one of a number of sedans sold under the MG name in the UK,
many of which were badge engineered Rileys, Austins,Woolsleys etc. The last MG sedan in the US was the ca.1964 MG 1100, a badge engineered Austin, later sold as the Austin America.

badtoy · January 2002

were quite lovely, in a splashy kind of way.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

Well, a different breed. The cars you are thinking of were built before Simca took over in 1959. They (Simca) killed the name Talbot. Talbot was reincarnated as a badge for Chysler products in France just beore Peugeot took over. It was, to many historians, a horrible misuse of a once great name.

Interesting thing one book I'm reading points out. Three of France's greatest carmakers----Bugatti, Gordini and Lago...were Italians.

Actually, Talbot has some genuine British roots, but it's pretty convoluted to get into.

badtoy · January 2002

Those British -- who knows what they do behind closed doors! (I hear they're partial to fish-net hose....)

focusmatt2 · January 2002

Well, the Honda HR-V is fairly popular in the UK - it is a small 2 or 4 door SUV (about the size of a last-gen Suzuki Sidekick 4-dr) that has a similar-looking rear window.

So when Car magazine called it a "latter-day Talbot Rancho" I wanted to know what they meant.

I really appreciate French wierdness. I hand them credit for being much more creative than American car companies. They also pioneered space-saving FWD!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

Yes, I didn't mean "weird" in a derogatory way, although their styling can border on the bizarre. French cars are by no means always beautiful, but they are always French, that's true.

That is true, the '55 Citroen was light years ahead of most other cars.

dennisjhs · January 2002

Looking back at some of the marques: Borgward, Simca, Sunbeam, Talbolt, Austin Marina..
You guys sure know how to bring tears to my eyes. I've had the opportunity to work on these vehicles and looking back now, in most cases, its a pleasant trip down memory lane.

I was taught that you could tell a french vehicle by the comfort of the seats and the ride; the german vehicle had a stark, business like interior and a firm ride; the british vehicle was somewhere between the two vehicles. What do you think of that Mr. Shiftright?

badtoy · January 2002

Re "I really appreciate French wierdness. I hand them credit for being much more creative than American car companies," While I agree that the French have been great innovators, they hardly have the corner on it. In fact, every country has its own tradition of innovation, based on the ingenuity of its citizens and how well their inventions fit the needs of the local market.

In America, for instance, space-saving FWD was never a necessity (still isn't, for that matter), and the mechanical disadvantages far outweighed the packaging advantages. Now that Americans have rediscovered RWD and big V8s, the allure of FWD is fading fast.

As for wild styling, the French certainly had nothing on the Americans in the 50s. Fads come and go, but the French are with us always....

focusmatt2 · January 2002

I completely disagree, badtoy.

The Americans have innovations, but I think we're an awfully lazy group, at least in the past 20 years. Most of what seems like brand-new technology here has been perfected by the Japanese or the Germans years ago.

France has approximately 40 million people. the United States has more than 5 times that amount. I think per capita that France has been nearly as creative.

And when you take Europe with its 200 million people into account, there's no doubt in my mind who can combine style with engineering. The United States hasn't done it as well.

Now whether that changes or stays remains to be seen.

egkelly1 · January 2002

I agree, the french have done some very unique designs, but also some horribly weird stuff too..like the Peugeot-404, 505-basically good designs-but why was the ignition key on the left side of the wheel? Everybody else puts it on the right! Door handles-placed so far forward that you had no leverage. I do appreciate the french love of comfort-nobody beats them with seats!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

Americans have been very lax on automotive innovation. Probably 1949 was the last time an American car had anything dramatically different and new (and workable) on it or in it. Europeans and Japanese beat us to the punch on just about every modern technology we now enjoy on cars, except perhaps air bags...I think that was an American development. But fuel injection and active suspensions and AWD for passenger cars and workable turbos and disc brakes and ABS and OHC engines and radial tires and 5-speed transmissions---all European or Japanese innovations.

mminerbi · January 2002

As far as I know power steering and brakes, air conditioning, cruise control, catalytic converters, various power equipment (windows, seats, antenna), load leveling suspensions, and tinted glass were American innovations, or were first mass produced by domestic manufacturers.

carnut4 · January 2002

As far as I know America was and has been way ahead of anyone else with automatic transmissions. Just where were the Japanese and Europeans with automatics in 1940? 1950? 1960? Or?

badtoy · January 2002

At least until ten years ago, and maybe even now, American automatic transmissions and power equipment were the standard of the world -- used as OEm equipment by such exclusive marques as Rolls Royce.

My point was not that American car companies have necessarily matched the French (or the Germans or japanese, or whoever) in technology on a per capita basis (although they may have -- I'm not a statistician), but that the market is what drives innovation -- not culture or nationality. Fact is, no matter how good or innovative an idea is, if people aren't willing to pay for it, it will never see the light of day. In that respect, all countries tend to produce that which sells in the largest market in which they participate. To do otherwise is just bad business. of course, one shouldn't always follow the market, but lead it too -- Mercedes does a pretty good job of that with their engineering, and Lexus did it with supreme quality and a revolutionary approach to customer treatment and the general dealership experience.

focusmatt2 · January 2002

This isn't in reference to the last two posts, but I find it common that when overly zealous pro-American people post saying "then why does BMW use GM transmissions", the answer is simple and probably far too intelligent for their reasoning skills:

BMW's home market rarely if ever orders an automatic transmission. BMW's history is that of manuals, so why would a low-volume car maker have any expertise with automatic transmissions? GM has no expertise with manual transmissions. The only reason GM's transmissions are so bulletproof is because they've been doing it for so long. Blue-haired ladies and men everywhere have been wanting automatic transmissions on their Buicks for as long as I can remember.

focusmatt2 · January 2002

Rolls-Royce doesn't have the R&D money to make their own automatic transmissions... plain and simple....

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

Nah, that list of American innovations, while accurate, is from WAY BACK. Most of those were on American cars in 1948.

Citroen had load leveling suspenion in 1955, before Cadillac, and the catalytic converter was patented in France in 1962 (http://www.invent.org/book/book-text/59.html)

This leaves modern American innovations as a pretty short list, such as air bags and cupholders Pretty lazy record for an industrial giant.

Dont' get me wrong. I'm not any happier about this history than you are. We used to be leaders in automotive development, as evidenced by your list of inventions we once came up with. We also invented modern steel stamping methods to mass-produce cars, without which no European company could have made automobiles in large numbers.

Anyone ever heard of a Spyker? What important innovation did it present to the world in 1905?

im_brentwood · January 2002

Electric Headlights was it?

focusmatt2 · January 2002

Amen, shiftright.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2002

No, electric headlights were about 1912, but that was a good guess. Hint: the Army should have given this guy money to develop his car.

Have You Ever Heard of a _________?!!

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