My elementary school principal was a nun, so you know the rest of my story....actually, the convent owned a 1948 Packard...big straight-8...the thing could tear down a house....
#33 C13 My brother has one of those old Crosleys in his garage. He moved it to his garage in the bed of a half ton pickup. They were made narrow to go through the doors of the appliance stores. Has a Waukasha (however it’s spelled) engine. The same engine that powered the refrigeration units on rail cars. Engine, trans, and differential bolted together as a unit. As the rear wheels go up and down over bumps, the engine pivots and the shift lever goes up and down too. A little disconcerting when you aren’t “in tune” to the concept.
#41 ralph124c I always thought the NSU Prinz looked more like a Corvair. Must have been the knowledge that there was an engine in the rear of both, and they were usually very oily on the back. By the time I owned and was driving a BMW 2002 in the early ‘70s, Service Station Attendants (now there’s a reference to extinction!) would try to open the trunk to check the oil. I would release the hood latch, then open the hood with the comment that it was not a Corvair.
Chrysler Turbines. It hurt my feelings when I saw one of them in a museum. I remember being appropriately impressed when I saw one at a shopping mall during their first PR tour. First time I really felt like I was getting “old.” Remember the "show and tell" demonstration of the nickel balanced on edge while they started, revved, and shut off the engine?
There were many cars that looked like that. Frazier Nash raced one that looked similar. Even BMW had a couple models that were raced. Did I miss the answer?
Yes, the original prototype Crosley did have a Waukesha air-cooled engine, but for the sake of history I would like to point out that aside from that rather rare example mentioned, most Crosley cars that were manufactured had a nifty little COBRA (Copper Brazed) engine made entirely out of brazed sheet metal parts, about 120 of them, (tubing for cylinders, sheet metal for the cylinder heads) and weighing only 59 pounds less starter and generator. This was also on overhead cam engine, so the car was rather advanced for 1946. Best year was 1948, when they built 28,000 cars (Chevy built 775,000). In 1949 they put a new engine in, because electrolysis was destroying the COBRA, much to owners dismay.
This CIBA block was cast-iron, and in 1949 the CRosley became the first American car to use 4 wheel disc brakes (again unsuccessful because of a lack of weather protection on the caliper). A sportscar version of the car, called the Hotshot, became much beloved and fairly successful in small bore racing, and you still see them in vintage races today.
The company held out until 1952, the same year a company called VW continued to send a trickle of their cars to America (351 in 1951, but 31,000 by 1955).
My Dad bought a "48 Crosley station wagon in 1957 for $40. Dad was a grade school teacher, and he bought the car from his principal, who had found a "better" crosley of the same year and body style. Both cars had the cast iron engine. I remember my Dad taking out the engine and having it overhauled-he just climbed inside the engine bay and lifted it out with his hands. When it came time to start it, noone knew the firing order-so we guessed it,pushed, and after a bunch of backfiring, tried something else. I remember telling them to try 1-4-3-2, I believe, and thAt worked. I learned to drive in that car-in the highschool parking lot-at age 11. My dad sold that Crosley later to a neighbor down the street, and bought his principal's "better" Crosley[for$100}who had moved up to a Fiat Roadster.Later, I noticed that the raft ferry at Tom Sawyer Island in Disneyland was powered by a Crosley engine. Memories.....
I think the MGD is a misprint, although there is a new MG out in the UK, but I think it is an F...anyway, you wouldn't see an ad for it here in the US...
The MGC is a six-cylinder version of the MGB, with some suspension and minor body modifications. When introduced in 1967 it was handled rather roughly by the automotive press as being too heavy and too slow and not a worthy successor to the Austin Healey nor a worthy competitor to the Triumph TR 250. Both a roadster and a coupe were made.
Since they are somewhat rare, one often sees some pretty unrealistic pricetags on them, but in fact the interest in them is small (though enthusiastic), and $8,000 should buy a very very nice one, about the same as a well-done MGB. They are more of a touring-type car than the more agile MGB and not a car that one can fling about as comfortably. Many parts do not interchange with an MGB and this difficulty, coupled to their rather modest value, makes restoration out of the question unless one doesn't care at all about the money invested. A collectible car for sure, but not one headed for stardom.
The Crosley did have an overhead camshaft but no timing chain or belt. I recall a vertical shaft from the crank to the cam, using two pair of bevel gears. This engine block and cylinder head were a single casting; no head gasket failures with this design but a valve job was an undertaking.
Wow. A shaft with bevel gears instead of just regular old timing gears. That's a new one on me.
There have been a few other engines with integral heads; in recent years I think some F1 engines. I wonder if that holds any promise for future production, especially once electro-magnetic valve actuation gets the wrinkles worked out. No valve lash adjustments would be necessary, it seems to me. No cam.
A friend of mine owns a '74 Renault R17 Gordini with the large sliding sunroof. They only made a bit over 1000 of them, and the boogers are horrible to find parts for. His hasn't run in years simply because he can't find all the parts he needs.
It was fun to drive in its day. My boss had one and I occasionally had to ferry it to one place or another cuz he had too many family members comin and goin all the time with too many cars. Sometimes one got left behind.
The first time, I was looking forward to driving it con brio, but of course I wanted him to think I was Mr. Conservative. He took me aside before I left and said sincerely "Now, I know this sounds crazy, but my mechanic assures me this is very important. You gotta keep these foreign engines revved pretty high. Don't be afraid to give it plenty of gas."
They were the Honda N600 and S800...the S800 is quite collectible today, and can bring $9K or so if very very nice.
The vertical shaft to drive the cam is called I believe Desmodronic drive (used many times in the past history of the car, and most recently by Ducati motorcycles).
Mr S desmodronic refers to the method of valve acutation using two rockers on each valve,one opened the valve and the other closed it,no valve spring was used.The rockers were usually driven by 2 separate cams on the camshaft.The closing rocker had a bit of stretch or flex built in to ensure ccomplete closing.Advantage was very high revs with no valve bounce.A complete nightmare to set up and adjust,broken rockers were the main failure,A fairly common tuning and aftermarket add on for racing motorcycles especially Vellocette where the engine would rev till the piston broke up.Mainly let down by material failures the desmo system was killed off by rapid advances in valve spring performance.Good fun while it lasted.I still see the occasional desmo vello at the isle of man TT races.
Interesting...so one can have desmodronic drive using a chain, or is shaft drive to the camgear, in addition to springless valve actuation, also part of the definition?
Mr S , chain drive is not suitable due to backlash and lack of precision.The shaft drive and bevel gears incorporate vernier pins to allow very accurate set up.This was a weakness as these pins were often subject to bending loads at high revs causing breakage and engine damage.I have never come across a chain drive desmo head,but Iam interested to know if anyone else has.Shaft drive is simply that.There are lots of interesting variations on desmo valve drive some had twin cams others single rockers doing both jobs,some had ring cam rockers,needle roller bearings etc,all clever stuff.I will see if I still have any old info on this and send you a copy,I lost a lot of stuff some years ago in a fire.On Ducati's as far as I know they produce both types of engine or at least they did until a short time ago.I'm a bit rusty now on bike stuff.
Thanks for that...I had never seen a chaindrive Desmo either, but as you know in the past inventors and engineers have tried just about everything with engines.
Mr S I just spotted a small error, correct spelling is desmodromic not 'dronic'.Ihave become curious about the derivation of this word ,does anyone know? Ducati still produce a desmo,the ST2.
Yes, the implication I think is "direct" and "firmly linked", which desmodromic drive certainly is! But thanks for your research...a "dromos" was a path into a religious place...I guess it's always good to pray before taking apart the valve works on a Ducati!
I would reccomend praying every time it's started.I remember a Manx Norton which some clever guy converted to desmo, it started ,revved to about 12000, the con rod and piston exited via the newly formed crankcase ventilator in granulated form ,we were picking bits out of our hair for days afterwards.Those were the days!
There were many small engineering shops back in the 60's doing things like this,a reasonably easy job on a single cylinder motorcycle engine,even more bizzare was 4 of these engines joined in line to make a 2 litre,which eventually ended up as the vanwall racing car engine,a test bed for vanderwell thinwall bearings.The Ducati of course is modern in design and materials and thus a diffrent kettle of fish.
On the one hand you talk about the need for prayer every time you start a desmo engine; on the other, it's no big deal to convert a non-desmo, like your buddy did.
Vanwall dates from the 50's, and they were a sophisticated engineering firm - not hobbyists doing an explosive backyard project. I don't know whether their original engine was a collection of four 500cc manxes, bolted together and converted to desmo, but I'm skeptical.
Ducati started using desmo in the 50's and is thus the same kettle of fish.
Original vanwall was 4 500cc norton engines,not desmo,my ducati comment was qualified by the word "modern",early desmos were plauged by breakages.Comment to Mr S was tongue in cheek.Vanwall disappeared without trace,perhaps you could enlighten me as to why this happened to this great company.I was there but my memory has failed me.
Tony Vandervel announced his withdrawal in '59, citing health reasons.
I don't really care about desmo or Ducati or defending a particular type of valve actuation or anything. But I think you're being slippery. You seem to stake out 2 opposite opinions and switch between them in order to dispute whatever I say. If I may paraphrase you:
(You) Pray before you start a Ducati. Desmos blow up. I knew a guy whose 1960's homemade desmo blew up. (Me) A Ducati is very different from a homemade Manx conversion.
(You) A Ducati is a modern design made from moderm materials, and therefore is a different kettle of fish. (Me) So you're saying that your first reference to Ducatis didn't apply to Ducatis?
(You) Lots of small engineering companies made such conversions in the 60's. Vanwall was one [suggesting that it's good way to go], and they even went so far as to link 4 converted Manxes together. Then they disappeared without a trace [suggesting that it's bad way to go]. (Me) Is it what they used to become one of the pre-eminent F1 teams of the late 50's? Did it blow up? Did they pray? Was it made of contemporary materials?
I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with having no coherent point; coming here only fight and to throw your imaginary expertise around. That's what I do.
This posting is incoherent,what does "coming here only fight " mean?I,m aware of deep gulfs in the nuances and meanings often quite subtle in our disparate common language ,but I regret to say that I do not understand your replying to a posting meant for Mr S,he understood my meaning quite clearly.I was also unaware that it was in fact your personal remit to "throw imaginary expertise around" as stated in your last line.Thank you for this information.I would ask you to carefully read post 80 again as it appears perfectly clear to me. Is english perhaps your second language?Thanks for the info on Tony V,Ihad quite forgotten this.
Why thanks, old boy. It's my 4th. English is a remarkable language. You should study it sometime, if you have an interest in those sort of things.
Glad Shiftright got it right from the get go. He's very perceptive. Probably where I got screwed up is when you started contradicting yourself.
I re-read #80 but I'm afraid it hasn't cleared up anything. It seems that you start out arguing that backyard desmo conversions were common, and were no worse than factory versions, and you give Vanwall as an example. But then you argue that Vanwall was neither backyard nor desmo.
It's probably the subtle nuances of your language that are the source of my confusion.
WHATEVER!!!!....By the way, may I try to distract you both in a most transparent fashion by asking your assistance concerning a post elsewhere by a gentleman asking for information on a "sports car" called a Spartan (circa 1993)...of which I know nothing except a dim recollection of some UK type kit car of that name...any ideas?
You're suggesting that I might know something about 90's-eras kit cars? Now that *is* an insult.
Yeah. Might be British. They've been known to do odd things with fiberglass. How were the valves actuated? That's the important thing.
Did the builder give it that name because it has no superfluous equipment like top, windows, automatic starter, synchro gearbox, etc? Is it a sort of butch, militaristic, 'suffering builds character' kind of car?
who knows...just a new poster wanting info on the car...says he's found a 1993 Spartan and wants to know its value....I'm quite mystified, but it sticks in my head that there was a Spartan in the 1970s & 80s...I'll start thumbing through the books...maybe our spy in the UK knows something...
If it's a kit, it could have any number of engines and other major components. It's also going to be no better than the amateur manufacturer who assembled it, so its 'value', if you can call it that, should be approximately the salvage price of the components. But I guess it's worth what somebody's willing to pay. I can't imagine a kit car having any value at all except the emotional kind. At least it's not called a 'Trojan'. It could always be worse.
If yer boy's in touch with the owner, maybe he / she / it could provide some clues as to its origin. He also oughta be able to look under the hood and stuff...see what he can see. I mean, is it an ohv4-powered car or a dohc6 or a Yank V8 er wut? If it's got a VW engine in back I'd slink away discretely, as quickly as possible.
Pardon my broken English. One does what one can, wot?
Trabants: are they still manufactured? i know far too many still exist and are even used on freeways in the EU.
does russia still make those limosines that the USSR "presidents" rode around in? seems like the name started with a 'z' or at least had a 'z' sound as the initial phoneme.
there was a kit plane years ago called a spartan, i hope that's not what the reader had an inquiring mind about.
AND does anyone know where i show look to find production numbers on Vipers and/or Prowlers? not how long, but how many per year. thanks
There's the ZIL, which is a big car, and the Zaporozhets, from the Ukraine, a compact car.
Trabants are, I believe, extinct as of 1991, after getting a one year run with a VW polo engine. The bodies were resin-reinforced paper mache, and anyone who restores one really should seek professional help regarding the issue of a death wish.
The Spartan, I am informed by knowledgable Town Hall visitor via e-mail, is a remanufactured car based on a 300 ZX and selling now in the neighborhood of $50K!! I didn't want to download the photo (never take downloads from a stranger!) but I am guessing it's a fiberglas creation of some sort.
As a rule, cars like this depreciate rapidly and are hard to sell, but there is a small market for things like Zimmers and Clenets and such.
Points raised in post 82 still unanswered,is there an answer,? still incoherent.Attempts at irony sadly far of the mark,you have missed the point completley.Descent into sarcasam, missing the delicate glissade from irony to satire is nothing other than clumsy.Who are you enigmatic c13?Blundering unasked into a harmless exchange to which you had made no contribution.I asked courteous and reasonable questions.Given the international timbre of this infinite byteland it is normal to asume that a person thinking in perhaps japanese and typing in english may easily make errors in phrasing ,parsing,punctuation,missed words and no understanding of the idiomatic nature of everyday exchanges.What are you c13?Wyoming farmer?Argentine doctor?Spanish policeman?Austrian pilot?tinker tailor soldier?Third estate or sans cullottes?.Robbed of the normal interface of appearance,language,social context,in normal contact, it is difficult to judge the parameters of linguistic interface.Should one assume a certain ability of intellect,or rely on carefully constructed donkey bridges?As you batter anger fuelled at the dancing pixels consider this ,are you Onassis or Onaist?faced with a violin would you play it or smash it up as it silently mocks you?Do you think positively or laterally?The hidden mole in the dark vaults of the mind can be indeed revealling even to oneself.Not for you the fine scalpel of wit,and repartee rather the cruise missile riposte to a misperceived wrong.Dissent fuels debate,abuse is the last resort of the morally bankrupt.I am as always your correct and courteous correspondent,your further postings are most welcome.
Mr S- Spartan .Made in Pinxton Nottingham England,now closed.Based on Triumph chassis,engines 1300 triumph and all UK fords to 3000 cc.Looks based on a Lotus 7 or Caterham,it is a bit crude in style.finish dependant on kit level purchased and the builders skill,often over optimistic. Lots here, cheap 'unfinished projects'available.Not a good buy.There is a US Spartan car but resemblance is in name only.
Didn't mean to ignore any of your questions, old sod. I thought they were rhetorical, like the new batch.
You ask why I responded to your post, which you had addressed to someone else about a subject that was none of my business. The reason is that I had an opinion about your remark, and this being a *bulletin board*, I voiced it.
I am willing to concede, as you so laboriously point out, that I am utterly lacking in art, wit, linguistic skill and respect for private conversation. I also possess a hostile and obnoxious attitude, and I'm a real smarty pants to boot. These points, duly conceded and recorded, need not be mentioned again.
OK you car experts, when did you see your last Borgward? It was my first new car, I bought a 1957 Borgward Combi in Mamaroneck, NY. What were the spec's?
Just saw one the other day--they are around in fair numbers out in SF...interesting thing about Borgward is that they were an up and coming company in Germany in the late 50s, early 60s, as was its competitor, BMW. Sad thing was, Borgward elected to stay with some regrettable styling and modest performance (well-built car, however) while BMW produced the 1800 sedan, later the 1602 and of course the 2002, all of which put them on the map and sunk Borgward for good.
Borgward was the first German car to enter production after World War II...1949....the Hansa 1500.
I had a Hillman Minx convertible for a while, just to tiner with. Couldn't give the damn thing away. Practically sale-proof. A classic case, I guess along with Borgward, of "rare" having nothing to do with "valuable". There is a pretty good though not fail-safe rule in the collectible car hobby which is "if they didn't want it then, they don't want it now."
Mr._S/R How about the small brother of the Borgward, the Goliath? I haven't seen one of those in ages---then also--how about a Wartburg Knight--I remember a dealer selling those in Girard, OH back in the 60's--I think they were of eastern european mfg.--possibly Eastern German.
Comments
My brother has one of those old Crosleys in his garage. He moved it to his garage in the bed of a half ton pickup.
They were made narrow to go through the doors of the appliance stores.
Has a Waukasha (however it’s spelled) engine. The same engine that powered the refrigeration units on rail cars. Engine, trans, and differential bolted together as a unit. As the rear wheels go up and down over bumps, the engine pivots and the shift lever goes up and down too. A little disconcerting when you aren’t “in tune” to the concept.
#41 ralph124c
I always thought the NSU Prinz looked more like a Corvair. Must have been the knowledge that there was an engine in the rear of both, and they were usually very oily on the back.
By the time I owned and was driving a BMW 2002 in the early ‘70s, Service Station Attendants (now there’s a reference to extinction!) would try to open the trunk to check the oil. I would release the hood latch, then open the hood with the comment that it was not a Corvair.
Chrysler Turbines.
It hurt my feelings when I saw one of them in a museum. I remember being appropriately impressed when I saw one at a shopping mall during their first PR tour. First time I really felt like I was getting “old.” Remember the "show and tell" demonstration of the nickel balanced on edge while they started, revved, and shut off the engine?
Yes, the original prototype Crosley did have a Waukesha air-cooled engine, but for the sake of history I would like to point out that aside from that rather rare example mentioned, most Crosley cars that were manufactured had a nifty little COBRA (Copper Brazed) engine made entirely out of brazed sheet metal parts, about 120 of them, (tubing for cylinders, sheet metal for the cylinder heads) and weighing only 59 pounds less starter and generator. This was also on overhead cam engine, so the car was rather advanced for 1946. Best year was 1948, when they built 28,000 cars (Chevy built 775,000). In 1949 they put a new engine in, because electrolysis was destroying the COBRA, much to owners dismay.
This CIBA block was cast-iron, and in 1949 the CRosley became the first American car to use 4 wheel disc brakes (again unsuccessful because of a lack of weather protection on the caliper). A sportscar version of the car, called the Hotshot, became much beloved and fairly successful in small bore racing, and you still see them in vintage races today.
The company held out until 1952, the same year a company called VW continued to send a trickle of their cars to America (351 in 1951, but 31,000 by 1955).
Good idea, just not quite the right timing.
Both cars had the cast iron engine. I remember my Dad taking out the engine and having it overhauled-he just climbed inside the engine bay and lifted it out with his hands. When it came time to start it, noone knew the firing order-so we guessed it,pushed, and after a bunch of backfiring, tried something else. I remember telling them to try 1-4-3-2, I believe, and thAt worked. I learned to drive in that car-in the highschool parking lot-at age 11. My dad sold that Crosley later to a neighbor down the street, and bought his principal's "better" Crosley[for$100}who had moved up to a Fiat Roadster.Later, I noticed that the raft ferry at Tom Sawyer Island in Disneyland was powered by a Crosley engine. Memories.....
Also, I saw an MGD listed somewhere recently. Never heard of it before. Was it a misprint?
The MGC is a six-cylinder version of the MGB, with some suspension and minor body modifications. When introduced in 1967 it was handled rather roughly by the automotive press as being too heavy and too slow and not a worthy successor to the Austin Healey nor a worthy competitor to the Triumph TR 250. Both a roadster and a coupe were made.
Since they are somewhat rare, one often sees some pretty unrealistic pricetags on them, but in fact the interest in them is small (though enthusiastic), and $8,000 should buy a very very nice one, about the same as a well-done MGB. They are more of a touring-type car than the more agile MGB and not a car that one can fling about as comfortably. Many parts do not interchange with an MGB and this difficulty, coupled to their rather modest value, makes restoration out of the question unless one doesn't care at all about the money invested. A collectible car for sure, but not one headed for stardom.
There have been a few other engines with integral heads; in recent years I think some F1 engines. I wonder if that holds any promise for future production, especially once electro-magnetic valve actuation gets the wrinkles worked out. No valve lash adjustments would be necessary, it seems to me. No cam.
Ugly as the bottom of my feet... but I like it.
The first time, I was looking forward to driving it con brio, but of course I wanted him to think I was Mr. Conservative. He took me aside before I left and said sincerely "Now, I know this sounds crazy, but my mechanic assures me this is very important. You gotta keep these foreign engines revved pretty high. Don't be afraid to give it plenty of gas."
I said "Uh Right. Plenty of gas. Got it."
Both were chain drive two seaters -- sweet little cars!
First time I drove one, I had to clarify the tach redline at -- seems like it was 11,500!
Drove one (the 700) around Okinawa for a while. Guess they couldn't be imported because they were chain drives.
The vertical shaft to drive the cam is called I believe Desmodronic drive (used many times in the past history of the car, and most recently by Ducati motorcycles).
I think the derivation is from the Greek, desmo---a bond or ligament, an attachment, and dromos, a straight passage into or toward something.
Vanwall dates from the 50's, and they were a sophisticated engineering firm - not hobbyists doing an explosive backyard project. I don't know whether their original engine was a collection of four 500cc manxes, bolted together and converted to desmo, but I'm skeptical.
Ducati started using desmo in the 50's and is thus the same kettle of fish.
I don't really care about desmo or Ducati or defending a particular type of valve actuation or anything. But I think you're being slippery. You seem to stake out 2 opposite opinions and switch between them in order to dispute whatever I say. If I may paraphrase you:
(You)
Pray before you start a Ducati. Desmos blow up. I knew a guy whose 1960's homemade desmo blew up.
(Me)
A Ducati is very different from a homemade Manx conversion.
(You)
A Ducati is a modern design made from moderm materials, and therefore is a different kettle of fish.
(Me)
So you're saying that your first reference to Ducatis didn't apply to Ducatis?
(You)
Lots of small engineering companies made such conversions in the 60's. Vanwall was one [suggesting that it's good way to go], and they even went so far as to link 4 converted Manxes together. Then they disappeared without a trace [suggesting that it's bad way to go].
(Me)
Is it what they used to become one of the pre-eminent F1 teams of the late 50's? Did it blow up? Did they pray? Was it made of contemporary materials?
I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with having no coherent point; coming here only fight and to throw your imaginary expertise around. That's what I do.
Glad Shiftright got it right from the get go. He's very perceptive. Probably where I got screwed up is when you started contradicting yourself.
I re-read #80 but I'm afraid it hasn't cleared up anything. It seems that you start out arguing that backyard desmo conversions were common, and were no worse than factory versions, and you give Vanwall as an example. But then you argue that Vanwall was neither backyard nor desmo.
It's probably the subtle nuances of your language that are the source of my confusion.
Cheerio.
Yeah. Might be British. They've been known to do odd things with fiberglass. How were the valves actuated? That's the important thing.
Did the builder give it that name because it has no superfluous equipment like top, windows, automatic starter, synchro gearbox, etc? Is it a sort of butch, militaristic, 'suffering builds character' kind of car?
Seriously, what does your guy know about it?
If yer boy's in touch with the owner, maybe he / she / it could provide some clues as to its origin. He also oughta be able to look under the hood and stuff...see what he can see. I mean, is it an ohv4-powered car or a dohc6 or a Yank V8 er wut? If it's got a VW engine in back I'd slink away discretely, as quickly as possible.
Pardon my broken English. One does what one can, wot?
does russia still make those limosines that the USSR "presidents" rode around in? seems like the name started with a 'z' or at least had a 'z' sound as the initial phoneme.
there was a kit plane years ago called a spartan, i hope that's not what the reader had an inquiring mind about.
AND does anyone know where i show look to find production numbers on Vipers and/or Prowlers? not how long, but how many per year. thanks
Trabants are, I believe, extinct as of 1991, after getting a one year run with a VW polo engine. The bodies were resin-reinforced paper mache, and anyone who restores one really should seek professional help regarding the issue of a death wish.
The Spartan, I am informed by knowledgable Town Hall visitor via e-mail, is a remanufactured car based on a 300 ZX and selling now in the neighborhood of $50K!! I didn't want to download the photo (never take downloads from a stranger!) but I am guessing it's a fiberglas creation of some sort.
As a rule, cars like this depreciate rapidly and are hard to sell, but there is a small market for things like Zimmers and Clenets and such.
You ask why I responded to your post, which you had addressed to someone else about a subject that was none of my business. The reason is that I had an opinion about your remark, and this being a *bulletin board*, I voiced it.
I am willing to concede, as you so laboriously point out, that I am utterly lacking in art, wit, linguistic skill and respect for private conversation. I also possess a hostile and obnoxious attitude, and I'm a real smarty pants to boot. These points, duly conceded and recorded, need not be mentioned again.
Survival of the fittest I guess.
There is a guy in my neighborhood that has a Hillman convertable that he exercises once in awhile. Don't see many of these!
Hey, Mr. S, Do you know the last year the Borgward was built?
Borgward was the first German car to enter production after World War II...1949....the Hansa 1500.
I had a Hillman Minx convertible for a while, just to tiner with. Couldn't give the damn thing away. Practically sale-proof. A classic case, I guess along with Borgward, of "rare" having nothing to do with "valuable". There is a pretty good though not fail-safe rule in the collectible car hobby which is "if they didn't want it then, they don't want it now."
How about the small brother of the Borgward, the Goliath? I haven't seen one of those in ages---then also--how about a Wartburg Knight--I remember a dealer selling those in Girard, OH back in the 60's--I think they were of eastern european mfg.--possibly Eastern German.