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Wed Sep 2, 2009 2:08am EDT
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The Prius hybrid automobile is popular for its fuel efficiency, but its electric motor and battery guzzle rare earth metals, a little-known class of elements found in a wide range of gadgets and consumer goods.
That makes Toyota's market-leading gasoline-electric hybrid car and other similar vehicles vulnerable to a supply crunch predicted by experts as China, the world's dominant rare earths producer, limits exports while global demand swells.
Worldwide demand for rare earths, covering 15 entries on the periodic table of elements, is expected to exceed supply by some 40,000 tons annually in several years unless major new production sources are developed. One promising U.S. source is a rare earths mine slated to reopen in California by 2012.
Among the rare earths that would be most affected in a shortage is neodymium, the key component of an alloy used to make he high-power, lightweight magnets for electric motors of hybrid cars, such as the Prius, Honda Insight and Ford Fusion, as well as in generators for wind turbines.
Close cousins terbium and dysprosium are added in smaller amounts to the alloy to preserve neodymium's magnetic properties at high temperatures. Yet another rare earth metal, lanthanum, is a major ingredient for hybrid car batteries.
Production of both hybrids cars and wind turbines is expected to climb sharply amid the clamor for cleaner transportation and energy alternatives that reduce dependence on fossil fuels blamed for global climate change.
Toyota has 70 percent of the U.S. market for vehicles powered by a combination of an internal-combustion engine and electric motor. The Prius is its No. 1 hybrid seller.
Jack Lifton, an independent commodities consultant and strategic metals expert, calls the Prius "the biggest user of rare earths of any object in the world."
More to the story
quote Buffalo News
The Japanese government has ordered Toyota to investigate the 2010 Prius braking system, and the U. S. government said it would probe the Prius’s brakes, too. Of 171 complaints filed by 2010 Prius owners with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 111 involved brake problems, the agency’s database shows, and at least two led to driver injuries. -end
Toyota Motor Co. launched a global recall today of 437,000 hybrid vehicles, including its popular Prius hybrid, as the world's No. 1 carmaker sank deeper into a quality crisis that has battered its image, hurt sales and triggered an onslaught of lawsuits.
The recall, to address complaints that the cars' brakes momentarily slip or give way, hits Toyota and Lexus brand cars in North America and three other continents.
-end quote
Does~ 200 miles on a new/unsold 2010 model make it "less than new"?? I'm told it was not used any sales rep or previously sold. Should I ask for better price, longer warranty, anything or nothing? Is this cause for concern? :confuse:
Thanks!
If this idea becomes law, gas guzzlers with low mileage, will pay less for gas than hybrid owners who travel more miles and use less fuel. In addition there is no guarantee that states won't increase their gas taxes.
I would also assume that any such "use tax" would also be based on the weight of vehicles since heavier vehicles are harder on roads.
I can't speak for your situation, but I do almost no driving that I don't have to. I combine trips whenever possible and don't just "go for a ride". If my car suddenly got 100% better gas mileage, I don't think I'd change a thing. I'd just enjoy the little bit of extra cash in the budget!
As the world’s first hybrid with sporting intent and a six-speed manual box, the Honda CR-Z has been worth the wait.
Britain’s love affair with hybrid cars is growing ever stronger – but until now, our obsession has been built on machines that offer low CO2 and high mpg, rather than great performance. So, can this bullet-shaped new 1.5-litre hybrid coupé be the car to put that right?
The daring Honda CR-Z will hit UK roads in June, and with prices set to start at £16,999, the CR-Z is aiming to reinvent the sector. It has a 0-60mph sprint time of less than 10 seconds, and an emphasis on performance that has been missing from petrol-electric rivals.
To find out more, we headed to the scenic southern Japanese island of Shikoku foran early first drive.
Under the skin, the new CR-Z is loosely based on the latest Insight – but as you soon discover, the car is much sharper, quicker and, most importantly, more entertaining.
Away from the line, you can feel a tautness in the suspension that isn’t evident in the family-oriented Insight saloon – which is a good thing. As you start to slip through the manual gears and up the pace, the newcomer quickly proves itself to be well balanced and very responsive.
Up front, the 1.5-litre hybrid feels punchy, while the six-speed manual box – the first in a hybrid since the original Insight was sold – is quick, precise and fun to use.
All of which comes as a bit of a revelation, a relief even, when you consider how things could have turned out. At motor shows and preview events, rumours had spread about the model’s likely weight and a power shortfall.
But the CR-Z is proof that a car can be much more than the sum of its parts. Many expected Honda to deliver a hard-edged, high-rev performance machine, but the CR-Z is anything but.
Although it’s sporty, that focus on balancing pace with a green nature hasn’t gone away. With combined fuel economy of 56.4mpg and a 117g/km CO2 output, the CR-Z is about more than thrills.
The formula this time sees a Jazz-based 1,496cc i-VTEC engine coupled to a small electric motor. Total power is 125bhp, while torque peaks at 174Nm.
As you drive, you find the CR-Z’s star act is its easy, low-rev urge, with that extra boost from the electric motor providing a helping hand, especially below 2,000rpm. And this driveability is key, because the 1.5-litre engine starts to get loud as the revs climb past 5,000rpm. Keep the throttle to the floor, and you soon reach the 6,500rpm limit. So this car is no modern-day successor to the brilliant late Eighties VTEC CR-X, with its 8,000rpm maximum.
Still, as with the Insight, the hybrid drivetrain is seamless and smooth. With Honda’s IMA hybrid system as it is here, you can’t run on electric motor alone, which will hamper the new car’s appeal to some motorists.
Credit to Honda, though, for the way the CR-Z handles.
It’s shorter and wider than the Insight, set lower to the ground, and gets its own stiffened chassis and suspension set-up, plus a set of 16-inch sports tyres.
Through the twists and turns of some entertaining mountain roads, the car felt nimble, and there’s a consistent, linear feel to the steering and turn-in. Yet ultimately, it’s predictable and safe rather than thrilling. There’s a fair degree of understeer and body roll on the limit, and the ride is firm but well controlled.
Honda will be more interested in telling you about the wealth of modern technology on board, such as the clever 3-Mode Drive System. Dashboard buttons give you the choice of Sport, Normal and Econ, which alter settings for the throttle feel, transmission and electric power-steering depending on how you want to drive.
The speedometer ring also changes colour to suit (red, blue or green). This is just one of several neat facia gizmos that monitor your driving style.
The CR-Z’s cabin is a mixed bag. It offers a superb, sporty driving position and impressive seat support. But not everyone will appreciate the busy cabin design, with its large, retro-style pods either side of the wheel. The overall finish is good, bar some cheap plastics inside the doors.
Unfortunately, the minimalist back seat area is barely usable for adults, while for the driver, rear three-quarter vision isn’t great. On the plus side, there’s a reasonable load space, with the hybrid battery housed beneath the boot floor.
When it hits dealers in the UK, the CR-Z will come in three model grades (S, Sport and GT), with prices ranging from £17,000 to £20,000.
On Japanese roads, the car acquitted itself well, even if it’s not quite the performance model some might have hoped for. In its home market, orders are flooding in – and Honda’s pitch for the car, as a new “hybrid café racer”, sums up the CR-Z well.
Gas version and hybrid version selling at same price - very cool....
The 2011 Lincoln MKZ hybrid will cost exactly the same as its conventional counterpart when it goes on sale this fall.
In a fairly unprecedented move, Lincoln will sticker its first hybrid with a starting price of $35,180, matching the price of its gasoline-powered sibling. Carmakers traditionally add a premium to pricing to offset development costs for hybrid technology and to increase profit margins.
The MKZ hybrid will get 41 mpg in city driving and 36 mpg on the highway. The car is loaded with features from Ford's technology bin, including Smart Gauge with EcoGuide, Sync and MyKey.
Lincoln says the MKZ hybrid undercuts its closest competitor, the Lexus HS 250. The MKZ hybrid uses Ford's second-gen hybrid technology that mates an I4 engine with battery-driven motors.
With the pending demise of Mercury, Lincoln is getting more resources and attention, and its product lineup is expected to grow in the coming years with new and refreshed models including its first small car and a unique V6 engine.
My question is: why would ANYONE buy the gasoline version with lower MPG when they could get the hybrid at 41/36 for the same price?
While I would expect to go for the Hybrid, each persons needs/wants are different and we should respect those differences
, even if they are wrong.But being a hybrid proponent and owner for more than 6 years now, it's hard for me to imagine anyone passing on 41/36 to get 28/22 regardless of the other circumstances.
If you need to "tow" don't buy a luxury sedan.
Performance will likely be equal, if not surpassed by the hybrid having an "electric turbo"
Do people really base a decision on a car on what type of transmission the car has? Really?
Complication? All modern cars are complicated. No normal Joe Public can really do much work on their own 2011 car except basic stuff like oil changes.
My guess is the only people who will buy the gasoline version are people who are ignorant about hybrids and "scared of them" for whatever reason - old age, stubbornness, unwilling to try something new and fresh, etc.
Of course this is hypothetical as I am not considering the MKZ in either version.
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The big question is will they sell at the same price?
Remember sticker price is a recommended price and the dealer actually sets price. So if the hybrid model goes for sticker and I can get the gasser for 10% off of the sticker price that savings on the car will pay for the extra gas.
Plus if I am not mistaken the gas version has well over 35% more horsepower so I would presume that performance will come into play with some buyers.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have bought a 100K extended warranty on both of my hybrids because I enjoy the peace of mind in knowing there will NEVER be a large repair bill.
My TCH has about 67K on it, and I will trade it or sell it at about 95K and get something else.
Just personal preference. The most I have ever spent on a car repair in 30 years of car ownership is $1400 on a compressor repair.
Never again.
Actually you did have a large repair bill. You just prepaid for one you may never use.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Its no different than any other warranty, or insurance for that matter.
People have insurance so they can pay $500 to get their car fixed instead of $3,000.
I have a home warranty I pay $40 a month for. But a $1,500 compressor for my heat pump is covered.
I live and learn. I'd rather "have it and not need it" than "need it and not have it."
That 74.4 Imperial MPG translates to 61.9 MPG in the USA.
Peugeot 3008 Hybrid
Here’s a glimpse into Peugeot’s future. The French firm has just unveiled the production version of its 3008 hybrid crossover.
Called the 3008 HYbrid4, the Peugeot teams a 163bhp 2.0-litre diesel engine, which drives the front wheels, with a 37bhp electric motor, which drives the rears. The 3008 is the first to use a diesel engine, unlike the petrol electric system used by Toyota’s Prius and Honda’s Insight.
The combined maximum power output is 200bhp, with a substantial 500Nm of torque also being produced, while combined fuel economy is 74.4mpg and carbon dioxide is pegged at a tax-free 99g/km.
Despite offering four-wheel drive, there’s no mechanical link between the diesel engine and the electric motor. The diesel unit features Peugeot’s latest stop-start system and is mated to a six-speed automated manual gearbox.
The driver can select from four operating modes – Auto, which selects the best combination of diesel or electric propulsion, ZEV, which activates all-electric mode, four-wheel drive mode, which activates both powerplants, and Sport mode which speeds up the gearshift at higher engine speeds.
Peugeot has elected to use nickel metal hydride batteries which are less expensive than lithium ion cells. These are mounted beneath the boot floor, along with the electric motor.
To mark out the hybrid from its conventionally powered siblings, the 3008 HYbrid4 features daytime running lights and a small rear spoiler on the outside, and a seven inch display on the dash with a readout of the powertrain’s performance.
The 3008 HYbrid4 will be produced in France in Sochaux and Mulhouse and marketed in the spring of 2011 in Europe. Prices are still to be confirmed, but the hybrid will sit at the top of the 3008 range thanks to its generous spec, which includes sat-nav, a built-in hard drive for storing music, parking assist and distance alert, at around £24,000.
The 3008 is one of a raft of new hybrids that Peugeot will produce. The hybrid module has been designed to fit into many of the firm’s products, including the 508 and RCZ.
Better go buy two of them
Worth the money?
All of this technology comes with a price: $41,000 or $33,500 after the government rebate. Is it worth it?
If you're looking for some sort of pay back, such as the money saved driving electric, then the answer is no. It may offer every bell and whistle from push button start to a smart phone app that can monitor the car, but it will never save you the difference.
But electric cars are more than an economical purchase. For people who want to drive an electric car without the hassle of range limits and for people who want to buy a car with cutting-edge technology, the answer is a resounding yes.
For the money, here's what you get: An electric car for the first 40-something miles — Chevy states the range as 25 miles to 50 miles, depending upon the weight of the driver's foot.
During two days of testing, I managed 32 miles on electric only at better-than-highway speeds. The following day, with more typical driving, I managed 46 battery miles.
That means I could drive to work and back and never use a drop of gasoline. The next day, I could do the same thing. No gasoline car or traditional hybrid can make the same claim.
Then over the weekend, I could drive to Knoxville, Tenn., and back with never a worry and never a recharge. No electric car in the world can make that claim.
Introducing an all-new vehicle, something that has never been tried or sold before, takes money and gumption. Chevrolet has shown both.
The Volt is world-beater. Mother Nature might be the first to buy two.
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I'm on my second set of tires (they are almost gone though) and I have done only oil changes and tire rotations - no other service.
There was a wire harness they had to replace under warranty, but that's because it was damaged ( unknown to everyone) when my Mom had a 5-mph fender bender.
I'd say I've spent about as little on the TCH for the first 70K miles as I have for any other car I have owned.
Well, that's an incorrect comparison.
The TCH compares more favorably and correctly with the Camry XLE when considering features, and the performance of the TCH engine compares more favorably to the V6 than the 4-cyl options in the line.
Well, your response was incorrect but it sounded good to some I'm sure.
4cylinder 169-179 hp 0-60 8.6sec
TCH 187 hp Total System hp 0-60 8.7 sec
V6 268hp 0-60 6.2 sec
So, no the numbers are very obvious; the Camry V6 is sports car like in acceleration while the TCH is much like a very average 4 cylinder from 0-60.
I never said which model I compared the TCH to. Did you assume I thought a base model compared to the TCH? Incorrect again. Seems to be a pattern developing here.
The total cost to own compares the models with no options, so a TCH with no options as compared to a XLE 4 cylinder with no options reveals the following:
The XLE has heated mirrors, illuminated vanity mirrors, leather steering wheel, power passenger seat, moonroof, sat radio, JBL system with CD changer, bluetooth, alloy wheels, fog lights, auto dim mirror, and a sliding armrest. The TCH has none of those standard. The TCH does have Smartkey though. Of course the XLE has significantly more cargo space and 307 fewer pounds that eat up that measly 8-18hp advantage over the regular 4 cylinder.
Sorry - strike 3. The base TCH is well below the base 4cylinder XLE in standard equipment.
The point of my post was that the difference in total cost has nothing to do with maintenance costs. It has to do with greater initial cost and depreciation not offsetting a reduction in fuel costs during the 5 year period.
This rating displays the vehicle's relative operating cost ranking, compared to all other new vehicles. This rating represents the ongoing "out of pocket" costs of owning and operating a new vehicle: Financing, Insurance, Taxes & Fees, Fuel, Maintenance and Repairs..................
So, the fuel consumption does come in to play here....
2. I did not say the "base" TCH had all the trimmings of a V6 XLE, did I ? I said a base TCH has more in common with an XLE than a base non-hybrid Camry does. That is true. The TCH does in fact have a leather-wrapped steering wheel standard - at least my 2007 does. ( I just looked at the sticker, which I carry in my briefcase - it's not on there as an option, but my steering wheel is leather-wrapped. )
3. You can get options on the TCH which are NOT available on the LE models, but ARE available or standard on the XLE. Again, more in common with the XLE.
bamacar says, "The point of my post was that the difference in total cost has nothing to do with maintenance costs. It has to do with greater initial cost and depreciation not offsetting a reduction in fuel costs during the 5 year period. "
The first part is right, but the second part is wrong. The TCH does indeed depreciate as well as the XLE, and way better than the LE.
Thanks for your participation and cooperation
TCH 53.6%, XLE I-4 53.6%, LE I-4 Auto 53.4%
All 3 Camrys depreciate at virtually the same rate.
Please provide Edmunds with guidance on the flaws in their True Cost To Own system.
Here is the TCH: TCH TCO
Here is the Accord EX 4cyl Auto: Accord EX TCO
TCH saves $1600 dollars in fuel over 5 years. Maintenance costs are almost identical. Accord saves $1100 dollars in depreciation (roughly same rate on a smaller purchase price). Accord saves $470 in finance costs (smaller amount borrowed for cheaper car). Accord saves $430 in taxes (once again lower purchase price). Accord saves about $1150 for insurance (slight surprise here but somewhat based on lower purchase price again -maybe value of repairs higher on hybrid?). Total advantage to Accord about $1600. Mystery solved.
Accord EX: $24,271
TCH: $24,665
Not much gained on the "lower purchase price" factor there. That eliminates almost all of the "smaller purchase price, finance costs, taxes, and insurance" advantages you listed.
A person can "keep saying the same thing" as long as they want, but they gotta expect that they might not be correct sometimes. Happens to all of us. We all have opinions on things, and sometimes those opinions can be backed with facts, and other times we get caught assuming things based on common sense which in turn are shown to be "only a feeling" and not factually correct. No Biggie. No harm no foul. It's All Good. :shades: :shades: :shades:
I was asked what was the difference between the Accord and TCH for the Total Cost to Own. Once again if you have a problem with the Total Cost to Own system by Edmunds, complain. Personal attacks against the messenger do not gain anything.
Edmunds Total Cost of Ownership used a True Market price of 26949 for TCH and the True Market Price for the Accord EX is 24271. Once again this is what Edmunds is using. I gave you the facts; no opinions here.
I just stated some philosophical truths that apply to ALL of us.
Nothing I said was or should be incorrectly interpreted as a personal attack on any person.
Automobilwoche [sub] heard in Qatar both from Piech and Winterkorn that Volkswagen will actually build a small series (about 100 first) of the car. Piech confirmed that the car will be made available for purchase at a yet undisclosed price. It’s not just a field test.
According to Winterkorn, the car will be introduced in Germany first. The U.S. and China will follow at a later point in time.
200+ MPG VW Hybrid coming to production
Further, I have heated mirrors, illuminated vanity mirrors, leather interior, power steering, power driver seat, moonroof, , JBL system with CD changer, bluetooth, alloy wheels,, auto dim mirror with compass, and a storage armrest. I have the smartkey system, navigation system, and heated seats. One disadvantage is my trunk cargo space is decresed maybe 25 % for traction battery storage. One other item. The Camry Hybrid had much lower than average maintenance costs. In all the years the Prius has been around, including a 400, 000 mile taxi in Mexico, not one traction battery has failed.
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http://www.hybridcenter.org/hybrid-scorecard/
http://bit.ly/njcjbG
Chat guests represent Union of Concerned Scientists, National Automobile Dealers Association and Edmunds.com.
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http://www.automobil.co.za/news/toyota-prius-sets-new-sa-fuel-record/
It sounded as a goal too far for even the Prius, but one couple managed circumvent South Africa using less than 140 litres of fuel.
Helen and John Taylor, an Australian couple well known for several international fuel economy records, decided to turn their recent holiday in South Africa into a record breaking attempt. They chose the ultimate eco friendly Toyota Prius for the job and assigned independent technical engineering company Aswan Consulting to follow them across the country and independently certify their record attempt.
The Taylor’s trip took the couple from Johannesburg’s early morning rush hour traffic through towns and cities such as Springbok, Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, Durban, Piet Retief and ultimately back to Johannesburg in a route that spanned 4 431.6 km.
“South Africa is an immensely beautiful country. Driving through the countryside is like driving through the USA, Australia, Scotland and New Zealand all in one day,” say the seasoned travellers.
The Taylors first refuel was recorded in Pofadder in the Northern Cape, after completing 1 100.2 km and using 34.368 litres of fuel. For the record purposes the couple was only allowed to stop at pre-determined Shell fuel stations, where the station manager was tasked with recording the fuel level, unsealing and resealing the fuel tank and taking meticulous photo evidence of the process.
“Our best figure in the Prius is 2.4 ℓ /100 km over a 50 km section. We travelled at normal speeds, but the road works and constant stop and go sections dropped our average speed to 53 km/h for the section,” say the Taylors.
The 2.4 ℓ record translates into an average of 41.66 km per litre of fuel, which shatters any previous fuel consumption records. The same applies to the final record fuel consumption figure of 3.148 ℓ /100km which was certified by the independent technical auditor. To achieve this final figure, the Taylors used only 139.488 litres of fuel over 4 431.6 km of all types of road surfaces and environmental conditions.
The certified record figure is very impressive as it beats the official 4.1 ℓ /100 km fuel consumption figure of the Prius by 23%. This is even more impressive if one considers that an average 2 litre petrol driven family sedan would consume on average 7 l ℓ / 100 km.
“The Taylor’s achievement strengthens our view that the Prius was designed to offer the best possible environmental benefits in normal everyday circumstances. Not only did the Prius – a used version with relatively high mileage – outperform all expectations, but it did so with the lowest CO2 emissions as well. We are proud of both the Taylors and the Prius, well done!” says Dr Johan van Zyl, President and CEO of Toyota South Africa Motors and a Managing Officer of Toyota Motor Corporation.
2.4 liters per 100 KM works out to 98 miles per gallon, US.
That's pretty dang good in a Prius.
Near as I can tell, the maximum range speed of the Prius is ~18 mph (~29 km/h.) What we find is most of these "record events" happen at speeds impractically low. I don't mind it as long as it is part of the story. But without out the vehicle speed (and weather conditions,) the story is missing key engineering data.
Bob Wilson
Therefore, maintaining a higher speed was not probably one of the main considerations.....
They weren't trying to say that a commuter can expect 98 MPG out of a Prius - I think they were just pushing the limits of MPG in that vehicle, speed-be-damned......
In 2009, the Taylor's came to the USA to set a Jetta TDI "world record". Claiming driving records has become a 'business' with mileage stunts providing a distorted view of the sponsor's product. The product doesn't matter but the distortion that is so wrong and misleading.
One of the best examples of how to do it right are from the Edmunds "smackdown" series: Gas-Sipper Smackdown!, Fuel Sipper Smackdown 2, and Fuel-Sipper Smackdown 3. Edmunds is in the 'reality' business, reporting facts and data. Credibility is what makes Edmunds, Consumer Reports and EPA results useful.
So as a personal accomplishment, the Taylors set another record but given another sponsor, it would have been a different vehicle . . . and just as useful.
Bob Wilson
2012 TCH
quote-
The consulting firm IHS Automotive counts 29 different hybrid vehicles on the market, including battery-pack toting versions of mainstream midsize sedans such as the Ford Fusion, Nissan Altima and Hyundai Sonata. But nearly half of the hybrids sold are one model: the easily identifiable Toyota Prius.
Despite the additional hybrid models on the market, "we're seeing no increases in demand," says IHS auto industry analyst Rebecca Lindland. "The reality is hybrids have never gotten over 3% of the market. Which means 97% of people are picking something else." -end
That's why diesels and hybrids are low volume and something ridiculous like the F150 is the best selling vehicle.
Dumb.