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Bargain "Classics"--$12,000 or Less and 20 Years or Older
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Umm... TR7? OK, I'll agree that that belongs with the Allegro, Austin 3-Litre, Princess Wedges, Maestros..etc..
Vauxhalls and Vitesses? They're highly collectible and desireable in the UK. And wasn't the Victor F-Typethe first production car with a MacPherson strut suspension or am I wrong? (I may well be) But, aside from tinworm (Like my 65 XKE OTS and 59 XK150 Roadster didnt have that problem at one point!) The Vauxhalls are known, especially the PAs for outstanding mechanical durability. The drivetrains are nearly bulletproof. Also, the Vauxhall PAs were quite advanced for their day and also quite successful in the marketplace both in the UK and abroad.
Umm...and a 2000cc Vitesse does the 0-60 run in something like 9secs... not bad at all for back then.
Also, market on a PA in the UK exceeds many more popular Sports cars.
Now go see my Vauxhall page!
Bill
Of course, it is nice that there are old cars you can buy cheap and drive around in and have fun in. Not everyone can afford an XKE or a Healey or old Porsche or a GTO. And I have had my share of weird cars.
Please don't take offense, I just don't think Vauxhalls or Vitesses are anything more than oddities, like two headed cats and things like that. If you really HAVE to have one, well, go for it! I once had a Bond Equipe-----top THAT for weird and useless!
The cars you mentioneda are rare here because nobody wanted them in the first place, but in the UK they were more popular new, hence more popular old. That's the difference I suspect in the collectibility and value there versus here. Collectors need both a frame of reference and an object of collective desire; otherwise, you just end up with a curiosity, which is fine, but not quite as satisfying in my own humble opinion. Like taking in a stray dog, it's good for the compassion element--I sentiment I do support.
Search is still on in the $2000 to $3000 range. However it could be years until one comes for sale within reasonable driving distance. I have real concerns buying a car sight unseen or driven, especially these old British rust jobbies.
Maybe I should save my money and look into getting an MGA or Healey? Maybe a wiser "investment"
Anyone have an opinions?
It was really sad -- I went over to his house one day to help him with the stereo in his car, and he was just so frustrated -- he couldn't make sense of the wiring and couldn't remember anything. That's when I knew he was in real trouble.
But the car -- what a screamer! It had an electric fuel pump that you had to turn on before you started the engine, and you could hear it buzz and whirr -- kind of a preamble to the insanity soon to come! He took it to the track once and turned high 12s. Not bad for an old, much maligned British door stop!
'Course, this was in lower Michigan, so curvy roads were few and far between. Steering it under full throttle could get squirrely though!
a TIGER. It was sweet. He was an aerospace engineer working on ICBM design. He never let me drive it, but gave me a ride, most euphoric. Other small Sports cars i enjoyed seeing,
MG Midget, and the Healy Sprite with the protruding headlight.
Now an Alpine is a little British two seater you can still pick up cheap.
My first time and glad I found out about it!... anyways.. Guy who told me about it has a stunning Dark Blue Tiger 260, stock except for Minilite Wheels, and there was a second one there.. also in flawless stock condition.
Gorgeous cars, and rare to see 2 nice stock ones too.
Bill
Awesome input and data. Watching out for the fakes is difficult unless you have a person along that is really savvy.
I would prefer British racing green color with wire wheels.
BAD Karma to do that to someone!
Wire Wheels---some cars just don't look good in wires...this is especially true on a small tire. I don't think they work on Tigers, I think they just tart up the car. Mercedes look really awful in wires. Jags seem to look very good. Hard to know why, has to do with the lines I think of the car, and how the tire sits under the body, also tire size and the bulk of the body. You need a very very graceful car to use wire wheels.
great on MGB's...at least the 60's units. The ones with knock offs anyway....not silver, the chrome ones...
Are there any stand-out websites that have information on classic cars geared towads a first-time buyer?
-Beanboy
Mostly you have to watch out for screwed up cars (rust, bondo), cars with wrong engines or other parts installed, and cars that are overpriced because they don't have the right features but the owners think they are worth the same as the cars with the right features.
For instance, a GTO with a bench seat and automatic and wrong engine is definitely not the same as one with buckets and a 4-speed and matching numbers--even though they look identical to the casual observer. So a good price guide also helps, like the one published online by mannheim auctions (you can look them up through www.google.com search engine).
Do your homework before you spend $25K on an old car. There's a lot of junk out there for sale.
shiftright the host
Also, price seems too high for the amount of work. $18-20K should buy you a very very nice, completely done car that is not modified. Not a show car for that money, of course, but what you have is a modified car needed expensive cosmetic work and with prior rust history. I'd certainly bargain on this one.
While I know you are particular to smaller imports, wanted to get your opinion on what currently interests me, not necessarily as a classic, but something that will at least hold it's value.
I have always found the lines of the 57-59 Plymouth Fury to be quite attractive. They seem cleaner than the bigger finned cars of the era, and they can be found with the 383 Hemi and 3 speed auto. My question, what are the major differences between the Fury, Belvidere, and the Dodge Coronet? It seems the Fury is by far the favorite. Do you have any other suggestions of similar vehicles, and how do these types of cars rate in general? The Chevy's don't really interest me, but am I overlooking a Ford or GM I should consider?
As for my preferences, I think GM products were much superior at this time (late 50s) than Ford or Chrysler. Chrysler build quality was pretty awful right around 57-59....of course, after all this time, I suppose most of these old Chrysler products have either rusted away, fallen apart, or been restored much better than the factory ever made them. So you might not have to deal with the quality control issues as the first owners did.
I rather like the Fury, too...the 383 and Torqueflight 8 transmission is a sturdy, sturdy driveline.
But still, GM cars of this era generally bring the most bucks and get the most attention. I always liked the 1960 Impala coupes and the Pontiac convertibles, 1959 on up. I don't care for Buicks or Cadillacs of this era at all, and most 1958 cars of any american make are rather ugly in my opinion. I'd say the Golden Age for american makes started in 1960, on up to the late 60s. And, of course, 1955-57 Chevies.
Top engine in '57 was the 318/290 dual quad polysphere. It was also available in '58 along with a 350 (yes 350) CID version of the big block wedge with 2x4s. In '59 they cut back on the performance a bit with a single four barrel 361, although it was torquier than the 350.
I like those cars too, even the '59 that most people laugh at. My father had a '59 Belvedere 2-door wagon back in the early '60s. The hardtops are nice but even the coupes have a very graceful roofline, much more flowing than anything from Ford or Chevy.
But Chevy was certainly more performance oriented, especially in '59. Available 4 speed, fuel injected small block with 290 horses and a variety of big blocks, some with solid lifters and three deuces. Any of these--in fact, just about any Chevy hardtop--will be expensive compared to other cars from that era.
Ford really didn't offer much in '58-59, either in performance or styling, except for the retractables. A real low point.
I will say that if you drive a '58-60 of any make you'll get lots of attention. Aside from the Plymouth and maybe a few others, cars of that era run the gamut from just plain unfortunate to mondo bizarre. There's a guy around here who drives a '58 Buick Special four door hardtop, white over yellow, and God help me but I enjoy seeing the car. He does stand out. I think small planes use him as a landmark.
The 318 was also a good engine...let's see....was it 318 distributor in front, 383 distributor in back, or vice-versa....I'm confused!
You can buy old 4-door Chryslers from this era for very cheap these days....like buying carpeting,, you pay by the square yard! LOL......
Normally I HATE tail fins, but those little Fury "batwings" are kind of cute in a Jetsons sort of way.
But I LOVE the new T-Bird design! Does that redeem me in your eyes, at least a bit?
Chevy's from that time seem to command more money, but their styling is not as good. (Though the Impala wings were different, at least) However, around 63, things started to get interesting again.
I can defend American cars from that era only because they seem to so well reflect the times. We were full of confidence, wealthy, and we just finished a huge interstate system that begged for big cruisers to take a trip across America on. I love the chrome and intricate front end styling of the grills and bumpers.
Beats the Fairmonts, Reliants, and Malibu's of the 70's & 80's.
I'll check out the Pontiac's as well.
Fair enough.
In the 1980s, they said "times are hard...let's not take any chances...let's make the cars as unoffensive and bland as possible, so that we don't take a wrong turn right now."
In the 1990s, they said "If we don't design better and more interesting cars, the Japanese and Europeans are going to eat us for breakfast."
So I see three different environments at work.....the laziness that comes from prosperity, the poverty mentality from hard times, and the creativity that comes from the need to actually survive.
I am probably looking at the #2-3 grade cars, something I can still drive and not feel like I am desecrating it. One other problem, garages on newer houses (like mine) will not fit many older cars, so getting a convertible version of my first car, a 60's Pontiac Catalina, may not fit.
I have a 92 Miata, but I don't think a copy of an English roadster will ever really be collectible, and I want something in which I can take my friends with me. Maybe an old Hearse?
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a '57 something. There seems to be a lot of money chasing Chevies but that makes them a better long-term investment. I like the '57 Buick and Olds--I had a '57 Special--because they're fairly clean but still have that '50s pizzazz, you won't pay an arm and a leg for one and they're smooth powerful performers. '57 Pontiacs are strong performers too but they look like a Chevy trying too hard to be a Buick.
I also like the '57 Ford especially with the 312/245. Y-blocks don't get much respect these days but the '57 was quicker than the '58-60, and one of the better handling cars of that era. Plus it still has that lean aggressive '50s Ford styling.
If you're concerned about garage space check out a '61 or '62 Buick/Olds/Pontiac. These cars are about the size of a late-'60s intermediate but they've still got that "interesting period styling" that makes you stand out in any crowd--as Shiftright points out, the automotive equivilent of a rubber nose. Hey, on some of us it's a good look.
VALUES: There are many resources on the Net, most of them inaccurate, but hell you have to start somewhere. Sadly, the really accurate price guides do not give away collector car info (you get what you pay for, right?).
My favorite guides, and the most accurate, in my opinion are:
FOREIGN CARS--Sports Car Market Magazine/Price Guide or CPI (Cars of Particular Interest)
Also, EcarCentral.com, on the net.
AMERICAN CARS---N.A.D.A. price guide / PMs Muscle Car Price Guide (may be on the net)
The silliest prices come from Old Car Price Guide---highly inflated.
Kelley Blue Book Early Car Edition is being revised and is getting better all the time...it covers 1950-1979 cars only, and I've worked on it so I know it's good and getting better. This is NOT on the net, however.
It appears there are tons late 60's muscle cars still around, seemingly well restored (and for sale). The late 50/early 60 models seem harder to come by, but 2 door full size restored Chryslers with the Hemi seem reasonable (except for 300 series), as well as some early 60's Fords. 57 Fury's are surprisingly expensive.
Just getting started, too bad I didn't sell my tech stocks about 18 months ago.
Plymouth never had hemis, Imperial always did (from 1951-58) and the makes in between sometimes did, sometimes didn't. I guess a good rule of thumb would be that the closer to 1951 the year is and the more senior the car, the more likely it came with a hemi. By '57 Chrysler was using the cheaper polysphere on a lot of its models. As I recall, it's a hemi if the sparkplugs go through the center of the valve cover.
Part of the Fury's appeal is that it was a low-production luxury model with its own trim. I'd guess that the Dodge D-500, which was available on any Dodge line, has less recognition and brings less money. D-500s came with Dodge or Chrysler hemis, big brakes and stiffer suspension.
The Popular Mechanics Muscle Car Guide is pretty good I think---of course show cars are priced very high...real show cars really shouldn't even be in price guides, as each show car needs to be judged individually on the quality of the restoration....Guides are for #2 (90 point) cars on down are more accurately pegged in Price Guides..
They seem fully optioned, even for today's standards. Not looking for an investment, but is it past the point of worrying about it going down to $0 value? What is your opinion in general?
I owned four and they are great drivers. Solid, decent handling, quick, not too big, fun and even sporty unless your other car is an MGB. Beautiful styling, maybe the best to come out of GM since WWII.
They are very attractive for a big car, and reasonably clean lines, too. I had one and liked it very much. I don't think the early ones will ever go down in value anymore, but the later 60s Buicks might continue to plunge.
You know, after a while, these old cars bottom out and can't go lower. Any old car that looks clean and runs decently has got to be worth the price of a decent used car....$1,500-2,000. I cant' imagine them going below this price....well, maybe a Rambler will, but....
The early ones had a close-coupled feel that was a big part of their appeal. It wasn't entirely an illusion--they're narrow cars. But I think a big part of the driving experience is looking down that long sloping hood between two sharply-peaked fenders--that imparts a tremendous sensation of speed.
The sensation of forward movement is so great that the first time I drove one I almost felt like I was being pulled out of the seat and along the hood. (Or maybe it was just a flashback.) I never had that sensation again, and I've never heard anyone mention it (or admit to it) but it must have still been there in the background.
The '66+ is nothing special, just another big car although a very pretty one.
Any experience with a company called Automobile Inspections Inc? For $350 they will inspect an older car and issue a 6 page report on condition and opinion of car.
An inspection is only as good as the inspector, but unless he's blind, he'd probably spot a real turkey of a car. But somtimes it takes a sharp eye to see hidden problems.
I remember my friend's Grandfather had a 67-68 Chrysler Imperial with the cool 6 lense tail lights, and the round gas access panel. The seem pretty plentiful now for the limited number sold. With 4,800 lbs of road hugging weight, 227 inches in length, and the 440 v-8 and 727 auto transmission, these pre-pollution control models should run a long time, especially since they were probably gently driven (they are not handling machines, eh?).
Same for Caddy's and Lincolns, though some of the convertibles are pricey. The early 60's Lincolns are interesting due to their 4 door convertible option, however.
It seems that anything from the late 50's is either restored (and expensive), junk, or a 4 door that seems the same price as a mid 60's 4 door.
To which, since I want to find something that can be used as a "daily driver", except for the winter, is the power options and air conditioning from a 50's & 60's cars expensive to maintain?
The Riviera's still seem like a nice compromise for getting my feet wet.
If you want a 60s car with outstanding brakes and great looks, try a 1965 on up Corvair.
I think most of us fantasize about, and throw our perfectly good money away on, old cars that were cool when we were young. The problem with four doors is that they weren't cool until about 1988.
Maybe an old four door hardtop is cool--I just saw a '56 Chevy with three teenagers inside looking like they were having a great time and if that's not a ringing endorsement of a car I don't know what is.