Kens--I've just been reading about the Nokian NRW allweather plus (with the little snowflake over the mountain!), and I'm impressed. They're expensive--for my size 205/70/15 they're ~$95 at etires.com plus shipping--i didn't go that far. They are claimed to have a 50,000 mile warranty and are designed as Kens said, for both snow traction and summer driving. I don't know if I'm ready to invest that much in tires, but I think I'd take them over the Michelin x-Ones.
Oh and I did find the Dunlop sport A2s--they're not available in my size that I could find.
Gened-- One more thing you might be interested in-- As I read about the tires that sound right for my needs, I keep flipping back through the Consumer Reports tire rating guide and comparing them to the surveys and reviews on TireRack-- I think you have to be a member to read the ratings list--They rate the Goodyear Regatta 2 just under very good. It gets excellent marks for braking on ice, emergency handling and snow traction; very good for hydroplaning; good for dry and wet braking and noise, and fair for comfort. "Exceptional winter performance, but only fiar dry and wet cornering. T speed rating."
I keep turning back to the BF Goodrich Control T/A M65s. Consumer Reports gives them very good in every area except comfort--fair there--and excellent for snow traction. "A very good all around choice. Very good dry cornering, good wet cornering. S speed rating."
They rate Michelin X-ones "Top all-around performer Excellent dry and wet cornering. T speed rating."
Yokohama Avid Touring is "A very good tire. Very good dry cornering, good wet cornering. S speed rating." (I've been looking at the Avid T4 which is the performance all season).
The manual says you can tow with all 4 wheels on the ground for only 31 miles @20 MPH for MT Forester.
That still does not answer how these Foresters are passing me at 65 MPH being towed by Rec. vehicles.
Are the drive shafts removed? Anybody have the secret?
Another question. Can you tow an AT Forester S with the front wheels off the ground if you insert the FWD fuse, and leave the ACC. switch in the ON position?
Also, unrelated to towing, can you drive the Forester "only" in Front wheel drive if you insert the FWD fuse.
Any first hand experience will be appreciated.
I'd rather get input here first, rather than from a wrecker driver or a service manager. Thanks
Thanks for the info. The Nokian NRW are available 90 miles away in Rochester NY. I don't know the price but I think I would like to buy something local if possible so if I had trouble I could easily get a solution. Did consumer reports test the Duelers or the Geolanders? Which CR had the tire guide? The BF's sound worth checking out. Again thanks. Gene
I don't think that the Dunlop SP Sport A2 is available the Forester "L"s stock size. You'd need to shell out for 16" wheels; perhaps an option if you plan to keep the car a long time and want to change wheels/tires for the winter; not a bad idea in wintry climates. (I plan on 10 years/250K from my '99 "S" in eastern upstate NY, so went with 2 sets of wheels & winter tires.)
In 205/70/15 The Nokians or BF Goodrich Control T/A M65s or Yokohama Avid T4s may be good choices. I haven't read much about them, but have seen posts about Goodyear quality problems (i.e. out-of-round). The BFG Control T/As feel like a good hunch to follow. Good luck.
Well I did it. After speaking with the Costco guy about the Michelin x-ones (they're called X-Radial Plus there and are $99 installed) and after verifying that Sears would match prices at TireRack (including shipping), I decided to forego the expensive Michelin and opted for the BF Goodrich Control T/A (traction advantage!) M65s.
They are rated almost identically to both the Yoko Avid T4s and the Mich X-1s, except the BFGs are rated excellent for snow traction (Yoko and Mich only good on snow); they also received very good for braking on ice (Yoko only fair and Mich only good on ice). The main difference was in the comfort category--BFG rated fair (Yoko and Mich good). I'm not sure how tires feel uncomfortable.
I finally decided that since we're mainly extra-careful (as in slow) winter drivers, we didn't need to go for performance tires.
Sears matched the price and I received a 10% discount for using Sears card. All the way home, though, I kept thinking about the Michelin X-Ones, so I was glad to hear that Jei has a hunch. Thanks, Jei!
I love doing research, especially when it saves me money.
I hope that's a positive comment! I already gave up my money--they'll be here from Reno next week! P.S. when did you live in Singapore? I grew up in South Sumatra in the 60s.
If you go to www.consumerreports.org and click on cars or automotive until you get to tires, you'll find the ratings I've been referring to.
Here's what was said by the "experts" in the forum about the two SUV all season tires you asked about, Gened: Eugene Petersen (the expert): "Top rated all-season tires for SUVs include the Toyo M410 Open Country Radial, BFGoodrich Radial Long Trail T/A, Bridgestone Bridgestone Dueler H/L, and the Yokohama Geolandar HT." [about the last two, he said this:] "Both tires have very good handling,and decent ride and noise comfort. The Yokohama tire corners better on wet surfaces than the Bridgestone tire. Snow traction is not a strong point of either tire, but the Bridgestone model brakes well on ice, and the Yokohama model is only fair."
The rest of the report was like so: dry & wet braking, excellent for both; ice braking, very good Bridge and fair Yoko; emergency handling very good both; hydroplaning, excellent both; snow traction, poor both; comfort and noise good both.
Wow!, You sure made up your mind. Keep us posted on what is meant by "comfort rating" Sears is close by and I do have a card Humm. What is the tread life. I use to use T/A performance tires on my Corvette and they were great.
I just now realized there were two sets of ratings, one for passenger cars and one for suvs on the Consumer Reports rating report. Now I'm worried because the BF Goodrich Control T/A M65s I've selected are right for my tire size and the speed rating is S as are the Bridgestone Dueler H/T now on the Forester, but the BFGs are--I suppose passenger tires rather than SUV tires. I never think of my Forester as an SUV. Is this going to matter?
I did ask a sales representative at TireRack for advice, and he didn't mention anything about my tentative choices presenting a problem, and neither did the Sears guy.
The number on the sidewall on the car now says P205/70/15 95S. P means passenger car, right? If I was supposed to buy true SUV tires, they would be labeled LT, right?
I found this on the tire rack site.The Forester is about 3200lbs so it probably would qualify as a passenger car. Hope this helps. Gene P-metric tires used on passenger cars and station wagons are rated to carry 100% of the load indicated on the tire's sidewall (or listed for the tire in industry load/inflation charts). However, if the same P-metric tires are used on light trucks, (pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles for example), their carrying capacity is reduced to 91% of the load indicated on the tire's sidewall. This reduction in load results in causing light truck vehicle manufacturers to select proportionately larger P-metric sized tires for their vehicles to help offset the forces and loads resulting from a light truck's higher center of gravity and increased possibility of being occasionally "overloaded."
I did say I had to order them, didn't I? They'll order anything you ask for (although I didn't ask about the Nokian there).
To match the price, you need to take a printout of the total, including the cost of shipping you find on TireRack or wherever(which for me was ~$38 total UPS). Sears added $10 for balancing, $2.00 for tire disposal, and $2.50 for valve stem (all per tire), minus 10% (for the cost of the tires), plus tax. Now we have a place to go for free rotation and balancing.
The warranty is 65,000 miles.
And I think I can be relieved to find that the fine print on the invoice says speed rating S and Load index 95, which is exactly what the Bridgestone Dueler H/Ts say.
I still don't know why the "experts" on the Consumer Reports forum would say you should replace tires with the same kind the car came with. That would negate most of the discussions on this board, wouldn't it.
I put BF Goodrich Touring T/A tires on my Outback about 10K ago. They're also 205/70/15 with a 65K treadwear warranty. They're pretty good in the snow, but I did have the ABS system kick in pretty good on ice a couple of times this winter. I wouldn't put too much stock in that "very good" rating for ice. But that's probably true for any all-season tire.
Congrats on the new tires. Please let us know how they fare around the year. Which aftermarket tire is an often asked question and I believe your experiences would be useful for us Forester owners.
In regards to the SUV/passenger car classification, don't worry. The Forester, for all practical purposes, can be viewed as a passenger car. The Bridgestone Duelers and Yokohama Geolandars are just passenger car tires with a slightly more beefy tread pattern -- a hybrid tire for a hybrid vehicle. You really won't miss out on much by going with a regular "passenger" car tire.
I think I can clarify something here, since I’m from Taiwan too. In Taiwan, we don’t have many options to choose from, so pretty much every car is fully equipped. That means, no L in Taiwan. L And another big difference is, the price Chuanfang paid is tax included. So if you compare the currency, it’s not really that expensive as it sounds. And last, welcome aboard, Chuanfang.
All ATs have a "lag" compared to MTs. I've driven ATs my whole driving career (500K miles roughly) and just learned to drive MTs. The MT definitely jumps out quicker but the subaru ATs are no different than any other ATs I've driven.
You should have driven my Mustang. That thing would hesitate for a good 2-3 seconds, then surge forward. The gas pedal was like an on/off switch. I found that smooth throttle use helped a lot. Good news is the tranny lasted, even as the rest of the car fell apart around it.
A high idle during warm-up is normal. Once the temp reaches a normal level, it should drop to about 750rpm.
I agree the visors are cheap, and I did check and the Outback's are shaped differently. Good news is the 2003's are better, more textured and far more durable and attractive than our thin plastic ones.
I drove an 1998 AT Subaru Impreza, and I also drove my neighbor's AT Outback (1999 or 2000 model, I forget), several times. They definitely did not have the lag my 2002 Forester has. If I remember correctly, all who complained about this own a 2002 Forester, so there may be a problem with MY 2002. It does not bother me much though.
Thanks for your exchange as I tried to make my decision on replacement tires. There's someone on Tires, Tires, Tires who bought Nokian NRWs for her Forester and she likes them very much. I'm saving those for my next car! I'll let you know how I like the BF Goodrich T/A M65s--the name reminds me of tennis shoes we used to get as kids--PF Flyers!
I picked up the May issue of CAR ($7.95 US newsstand price, alwys ruffles my wife's feathers ;-*) Sunday just for the one-page review of the new Forester. Without directly quoting (copyright issues) I'll briefly summarize:
Tested 2.0L turbo and 2.0L NA cars; NA underpowered, MT almost essential, turbo has more torque, less turbo lag, better fuel economy and performance even w/less hp than last-gen S turbo. (I'm guessing lighter weight and better aerodynamics here.) Author suggest that the 2.5L NA cars built for the US and Australia only should be "a good compromise."
Handling requires anticipation as understeer incresaes with speed and sudden changes in power to the wheels can make it "squirrelly." Brakes good, could be better. On-road ability far superior to RAV4 and new CR-V.
More refined interior, better materials and ergonomics (you who've seen it live probably already know that). Praise given to Subaru engineers on producing car with "limited resources" (states that Subaru has 1800 engineers on staff cf. 30000 for Toyota). Overall assessment a "solid improvement."
Refers to 98-02 model (which they call "Mk1") as "cult original" and best of the small off-roader class.
PF Flyers, Buster browns and Howdy Doodie!! Brings back some memories. B please keep us posted as to how the new tires fair. Especially in snow. I am going to try the Duelers but probably will switch to new wheels and tires. I might even put snows on the rims that came with the car and get new tires on new rims. Boy am I indecisive! Anyway I just ordered the sport grille so that will keep me entertained for a few minutes. Gene
Could be. I'm on a G-4 MAC, and the latest version of AOL for the MAC platform is 5.0. I know PCs are now up to AOL 7.0.
If I go to Explorer (via AOL), I can (sometimes) get Flash sites to work; same with Navigator, although Navigator seems better than Explorer. It just doesn't seem to work on AOL, by itself.
I may have asked this before, but do any of you "in the know" know whether the 4.9% financing for 48 - 60 months on the Forester will be extended into May? I've called Subaru and the dealer, but both say that they won't find out until this Friday or so (5/3), which, of course, will be too late to do anything if the program ends 4/30.
I was happy with "far superior to RAV4 and new CR-V".
Amy: I can't guarantee it, but why wouldn't they? Sales are down 3.1% for the year so far, so dropping incentives would make them tumble further. The 2003s will come out any week now, so I'd be concerned with finding a left over 2002 if that's what you want.
I also have a 2000 Forester. My rear wheel bearings failed at 8,000 miles. The dealer where I bought the car reinstalled them improperly and they failed again at 13,000 miles. I got SoA involved and they supervised the second repair. I just turned 39,000 miles on mine on Monday and so far this set of bearings has yet to fail.
The problem stems from overtorquing the bearings when installed - this can even occur from the factory. The bearings should be hand torqued, not using a pneumatic torque wrench. Having said that, the failure occurs with enough frequency that SoA is aware of the problem. It also happens with Imprezas, on which the Forester is based, so I suspect there may be a design flaw in the bearing as well. I used to have a copy of a service bulletin from a Subaru dealer to that effect. Not so much the case with Legacies. I have read that replacing the Impreza/Forester rear bearings with Legacy rear bearings fixes the problems, but SoA to my knowledge hasn't issued a recall or service bulletin stating that. I imagine they won't do that but continue to replace Impreza/Forester bearings until the inventory is depleted.
I'd recommend getting a case started with SoA so that your out-of-pocket costs are minimized. We are lucky here on the Edmund's board to have an SoA rep (Patti) as a regular poster/reader; she has worked with a number of us and along with her colleagues does a great job in helping most of us reach a satisfactory resolution to our problems.
The cars always arrive about a month before the brochures do.
And I'm not in Alabama. That was just the first thing that came up when I put in my profile. Never bothered to change it. I prefer not to say what dealership I'm with just for the sake of anonymity
Do you know where on the East Coast is the port of entry for Subaru? Or, do they all come in on the West Coast, and then travel by land or rail across the country?
Comments
Oh and I did find the Dunlop sport A2s--they're not available in my size that I could find.
Gened-- One more thing you might be interested in-- As I read about the tires that sound right for my needs, I keep flipping back through the Consumer Reports tire rating guide and comparing them to the surveys and reviews on TireRack-- I think you have to be a member to read the ratings list--They rate the Goodyear Regatta 2 just under very good. It gets excellent marks for braking on ice, emergency handling and snow traction; very good for hydroplaning; good for dry and wet braking and noise, and fair for comfort. "Exceptional winter performance, but only fiar dry and wet cornering. T speed rating."
I keep turning back to the BF Goodrich Control T/A M65s. Consumer Reports gives them very good in every area except comfort--fair there--and excellent for snow traction. "A very good all around choice. Very good dry cornering, good wet cornering. S speed rating."
They rate Michelin X-ones "Top all-around performer Excellent dry and wet cornering. T speed rating."
Yokohama Avid Touring is "A very good tire. Very good dry cornering, good wet cornering. S speed rating." (I've been looking at the Avid T4 which is the performance all season).
Let me know if you want me to check any others.
That still does not answer how these Foresters are passing me at 65 MPH being towed by Rec. vehicles.
Are the drive shafts removed? Anybody have the secret?
Another question. Can you tow an AT Forester S with the front wheels off the ground if you insert the FWD fuse, and leave the ACC. switch in the ON position?
Also, unrelated to towing, can you drive the Forester "only" in Front wheel drive if you insert the FWD fuse.
Any first hand experience will be appreciated.
I'd rather get input here first, rather than from a wrecker driver or a service manager. Thanks
Again thanks.
Gene
In 205/70/15 The Nokians or BF Goodrich Control T/A M65s or Yokohama Avid T4s may be good choices. I haven't read much about them, but have seen posts about Goodyear quality problems (i.e. out-of-round). The BFG Control T/As feel like a good hunch to follow. Good luck.
John
They are rated almost identically to both the Yoko Avid T4s and the Mich X-1s, except the BFGs are rated excellent for snow traction (Yoko and Mich only good on snow); they also received very good for braking on ice (Yoko only fair and Mich only good on ice). The main difference was in the comfort category--BFG rated fair (Yoko and Mich good). I'm not sure how tires feel uncomfortable.
I finally decided that since we're mainly extra-careful (as in slow) winter drivers, we didn't need to go for performance tires.
Sears matched the price and I received a 10% discount for using Sears card. All the way home, though, I kept thinking about the Michelin X-Ones, so I was glad to hear that Jei has a hunch. Thanks, Jei!
I love doing research, especially when it saves me money.
Just thought it was worth the note
-Dave
P.S. when did you live in Singapore? I grew up in South Sumatra in the 60s.
Here's what was said by the "experts" in the forum about the two SUV all season tires you asked about, Gened:
Eugene Petersen (the expert): "Top rated all-season tires for SUVs include the Toyo M410 Open Country Radial, BFGoodrich Radial Long Trail T/A, Bridgestone Bridgestone Dueler H/L, and the Yokohama Geolandar HT." [about the last two, he said this:] "Both tires have very good handling,and decent ride and noise comfort. The Yokohama tire corners better on wet surfaces than the Bridgestone tire. Snow traction is not a strong point of either tire, but the Bridgestone model brakes well on ice, and the Yokohama model is only fair."
The rest of the report was like so:
dry & wet braking, excellent for both; ice braking, very good Bridge and fair Yoko; emergency handling very good both; hydroplaning, excellent both; snow traction, poor both; comfort and noise good both.
You sure made up your mind.
Keep us posted on what is meant by "comfort rating" Sears is close by and I do have a card Humm. What is the tread life.
I use to use T/A performance tires on my Corvette and they were great.
I did ask a sales representative at TireRack for advice, and he didn't mention anything about my tentative choices presenting a problem, and neither did the Sears guy.
The number on the sidewall on the car now says P205/70/15 95S. P means passenger car, right? If I was supposed to buy true SUV tires, they would be labeled LT, right?
Hope this helps.
Gene
P-metric tires used on passenger cars and station wagons are rated to carry 100% of the load indicated on the tire's sidewall (or listed for the tire in industry load/inflation charts). However, if the same P-metric tires are used on light trucks, (pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles for example), their carrying capacity is reduced to 91% of the load indicated on the tire's sidewall. This reduction in load results in causing light truck vehicle manufacturers to select proportionately larger P-metric sized tires for their vehicles to help offset the forces and loads resulting from a light truck's higher center of gravity and increased possibility of being occasionally "overloaded."
Be comforted that it's a positive note.
Grew up in Singapore '59 -> '82
cheers
-Dave
To match the price, you need to take a printout of the total, including the cost of shipping you find on TireRack or wherever(which for me was ~$38 total UPS). Sears added $10 for balancing, $2.00 for tire disposal, and $2.50 for valve stem (all per tire), minus 10% (for the cost of the tires), plus tax. Now we have a place to go for free rotation and balancing.
The warranty is 65,000 miles.
And I think I can be relieved to find that the fine print on the invoice says speed rating S and Load index 95, which is exactly what the Bridgestone Dueler H/Ts say.
I still don't know why the "experts" on the Consumer Reports forum would say you should replace tires with the same kind the car came with. That would negate most of the discussions on this board, wouldn't it.
Congrats on the new tires. Please let us know how they fare around the year. Which aftermarket tire is an often asked question and I believe your experiences would be useful for us Forester owners.
In regards to the SUV/passenger car classification, don't worry. The Forester, for all practical purposes, can be viewed as a passenger car. The Bridgestone Duelers and Yokohama Geolandars are just passenger car tires with a slightly more beefy tread pattern -- a hybrid tire for a hybrid vehicle. You really won't miss out on much by going with a regular "passenger" car tire.
Ken
In Taiwan, we don’t have many options to choose from, so pretty much every car is fully equipped. That means, no L in Taiwan. L
And another big difference is, the price Chuanfang paid is tax included. So if you compare the currency, it’s not really that expensive as it sounds.
And last, welcome aboard, Chuanfang.
Sean
-mike
A high idle during warm-up is normal. Once the temp reaches a normal level, it should drop to about 750rpm.
I agree the visors are cheap, and I did check and the Outback's are shaped differently. Good news is the 2003's are better, more textured and far more durable and attractive than our thin plastic ones.
-juice
( www.subaru.ca )
Flash won't work on AOL! So, I go to Explorer (for which I have a Flasher reader), and the #@&$% Canadian site won't load properly! #@&$%!
Bob
tidester
Host
SUVs
Bob
-mike
(Pickups too!)
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Tested 2.0L turbo and 2.0L NA cars; NA underpowered, MT almost essential, turbo has more torque, less turbo lag, better fuel economy and performance even w/less hp than last-gen S turbo. (I'm guessing lighter weight and better aerodynamics here.) Author suggest that the 2.5L NA cars built for the US and Australia only should be "a good compromise."
Handling requires anticipation as understeer incresaes with speed and sudden changes in power to the wheels can make it "squirrelly." Brakes good, could be better. On-road ability far superior to RAV4 and new CR-V.
More refined interior, better materials and ergonomics (you who've seen it live probably already know that). Praise given to Subaru engineers on producing car with "limited resources" (states that Subaru has 1800 engineers on staff cf. 30000 for Toyota). Overall assessment a "solid improvement."
Refers to 98-02 model (which they call "Mk1") as "cult original" and best of the small off-roader class.
Ed
Brings back some memories.
B please keep us posted as to how the new tires fair. Especially in snow. I am going to try the Duelers but probably will switch to new wheels and tires. I might even put snows on the rims that came with the car and get new tires on new rims. Boy am I indecisive!
Anyway I just ordered the sport grille so that will keep me entertained for a few minutes.
Gene
Ed
If I go to Explorer (via AOL), I can (sometimes) get Flash sites to work; same with Navigator, although Navigator seems better than Explorer. It just doesn't seem to work on AOL, by itself.
Bob
Thanks.
Thanks for the summary. I like that: "cult original". MY98 -- that's when it all started.
Ken
Proud MY98 Cult Original owner
I was happy with "far superior to RAV4 and new CR-V".
Amy: I can't guarantee it, but why wouldn't they? Sales are down 3.1% for the year so far, so dropping incentives would make them tumble further. The 2003s will come out any week now, so I'd be concerned with finding a left over 2002 if that's what you want.
-juice (another member of the original 1998 cult)
Has anyone else experienced this problem and has anyone heard that it is chronic across the brand?
The problem stems from overtorquing the bearings when installed - this can even occur from the factory. The bearings should be hand torqued, not using a pneumatic torque wrench. Having said that, the failure occurs with enough frequency that SoA is aware of the problem. It also happens with Imprezas, on which the Forester is based, so I suspect there may be a design flaw in the bearing as well. I used to have a copy of a service bulletin from a Subaru dealer to that effect. Not so much the case with Legacies. I have read that replacing the Impreza/Forester rear bearings with Legacy rear bearings fixes the problems, but SoA to my knowledge hasn't issued a recall or service bulletin stating that. I imagine they won't do that but continue to replace Impreza/Forester bearings until the inventory is depleted.
I'd recommend getting a case started with SoA so that your out-of-pocket costs are minimized. We are lucky here on the Edmund's board to have an SoA rep (Patti) as a regular poster/reader; she has worked with a number of us and along with her colleagues does a great job in helping most of us reach a satisfactory resolution to our problems.
Good luck,
Ed
Bob
I replaced a hub and bearing on our 626 and it cost us a whopping $820.
2003s are in stock!? We gotta try one. I will call around!
-juice
Bob
They have so few GTs...
-juice
Bob
-mike
And I'm not in Alabama. That was just the first thing that came up when I put in my profile. Never bothered to change it. I prefer not to say what dealership I'm with just for the sake of anonymity
Also, I just called Fitzgerald's and the the guy (idiot!) I spoke to said they wouldn't be getting them until August! Yeah, right...
Bob
Bob
Subypower, what is the sticker prices on these cars?
-mike