that's one limited view...and buick screams look at my youthful, hmmmm, attitude... oh yeah tiger "drives" one that's it, it's definitely youthful if Tiger drives one... please. yes buicks demographic has lowered...a bit, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts any day of the week a flex is going to appeal to a younger crowd than any enclave will unless it's dubbed up and chrome meshed grilled all unipue auto style and then the bet is off as we all know how people like shiney.
squint and look at a flex and see xxxl mini cooper, I'd argue that might not have the OLD TIMER connotations your blinders lead you to see, or not. I'd also argue squint again and see scaled up japanese "cube" vehicles in proportion, are they marketed to OLD TIMER's, I didn't think so.
my $.02, your comments are more than a little wide of the mark.
As for being high, I don't think by too much. Really it's a matter of is anyone willing to pay this much for this vehicle- or a Ford period. Price is what killed the Chrysler Pacifica. The prices are 28g (base) 32g (SEL) and 34g (Limited). I think they all should be decreased by $1000.
Actually after I looked at the prices again and compared them to those of one of the top dogs, the Acadia, it is actually priced really well IMO. It comes with more standard than the GMC yet costs thousands less. It is a bit smaller though. But not that much.
I think the engine is a mistak. They shouldn't be using the D35 for something this big considering what the competition is using these days IMO.
I think the engine is a mistak. They shouldn't be using the D35 for something this big considering what the competition is using these days IMO.
That's Ford's newest V6. It makes 265hp and is used in the similarly sized TX. What else would they use?
Actually after I looked at the prices again and compared them to those of one of the top dogs, the Acadia, it is actually priced really well IMO. It comes with more standard than the GMC yet costs thousands less. It is a bit smaller though. But not that much.
Length wise, the Acadia is shorter. So really they are the same size, except for height. As for the price- yes I did notice it was priced comparably to the Acadia. That's the problem. I'm not bashing on Flex, but I don't think as many people would be willing to spend that amount on it as the GMC. It's just so different looking that it caters to only certain tastes. That said, it is smart that Ford is giving buyers a few more standard features than GM- they will need to in order to keep up with their competitors.
That's Ford's newest V6. It makes 265hp and is used in the similarly sized TX. What else would they use?
The D37 is newer and has more torque and HP, or they could use an EcoBoost. I wouldn't be surprised to see either of them in the 2010 flex however.
As for the price- yes I did notice it was priced comparably to the Acadia. That's the problem.
That's the opposite of what I was saying. Feature-wise the Flex SEL is comparable to the Acadia SLT 4SB. Price-wise the Flex SEL is $5000 cheaper (FWD models). I think you'd have to add the comfort group to the Flex to make it truly comparable to the top Acadia but even then the difference is $4000 or thereabouts. Having only sat in 2 or 3 Acadias I don't see how you or anyone could feel a GMC product is worth that kind of premium but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to.
Disclaimer - These, of course, are my opinions. Your opinions may (and probably will) vary if you are not a "car" guy like me. "Truck" guys will most likely hate the MDX.
Funny thing is - I am comparing with and still seriously considering the 4Runner. Have also driven that (V6) and find that it handles surprisingly well especially with the XREAS suspension. The 4Runner, of course, is a real SUV (body-on-frame) and has true off-road capability. It does not compare well so far as bells and whistles go with the MDX, but it does have a reputation for rock-solid reliability and we are planning to travel to the Rocky Mountain area and upward to Alaska. And I have to admit that I do find the "trucky" look appealing. Nice to have so many choices.
Since the Flex has come up here, I'll throw my two cents in on this model. It is true that I'm leaning towards the Enclave, which got me looking in the first place with the styling, but I just cannot believe how wrong Ford has gone with the styling of the Flex.
Seriously, if this is the best we can expect from Ford then I expect they won't last much longer before declaring bankruptcy. How anybody green lighted that "family truckster" body simply boggles my mind.
What got me interested in it was the feature set, but now that I see the styling - forget it. Ford calls it 'distinctive' - well I guess that would be one word to use, not the one I'd choose to be sure. If you look at the old Freestyle body, and the former 500 design you can see the design influence - ugh. Why would I want a vehicle that says - OLD TIMER ON BOARD?
I like the 4-runner and the current model seems to have benefited from Lexus developing a model off the platform. Having said that, I have trouble getting comfortable behind the wheel of the 4-runner...I feel to close to the floor for a vehicle like that. That's just a personal thing though and I imagine it is far from the norm.
I have a relative that bought a 2008 4-runner right before I got my MDX. They have extremely close stickers. It will be fun to compare them sitting next to one another when I see him this summer.
I like the RDX...it's a bit quirky and so am I. I would prefer a 6 over the T4. I won't pay what a nicely equipped x3 will cost and I'm not a Volvo fan.
What got me interested in it was the feature set, but now that I see the styling - forget it. Ford calls it 'distinctive' - well I guess that would be one word to use, not the one I'd choose to be sure.
In saying all of that you are proving Ford's point. It's distinctive enough that you noticed it. It's also distinctive enough that you don't like it whereas others, myself included, think it's an excellent design. I'm tired of all these swoopy, curvy CUV designs to be honest but they are here to stay for a while I guess.
The Enclave's design seems to cater to the masses, meaning everyone seems to like it or, at the least, some aspect of it. But Buick needs that because they sell in low volumes and they can't afford to be more creative (yes, I don't think the Enclave's styling is particularly creative) or they'll lose sales. Ford can afford to be creative with the Flex because they'll have a similarly sized car-based Explorer on th lot right next to it which you can guarantee will appeal to the masses as all past truck-based Explorers have.
Banking Ford's future on one vehicle's design is a gross miscalculation because the picture is much larger than that. Do you think the Enclave is going to save GM too? I'm not looking to start a war with you. Just trying to clear things up a bit. :shades:
LOL! I knew that one would draw some fire from the Ford lovers.
Paging Mr. Freealfas, the 70's are calling - your station wagon is now ready for pickup.
Seriously now, I know this is an opinion - I get that. I just personally hate the styling. It looks old TO ME. The Scion knock-off belongs on a short wheelbase. When it is stretched - it looks like a 70s family truckster - sorry it DOES. I am sure it will have some redeeming qualities inside - the exterior appearance won't be one for me.
In all honesty, I like the things Ford has done technology wise - they have been a leader with some really cool features, they just lost my money with the look of their rides - that is all.
It would seem that the only "real-life" price comparison between the 4Runner and the MDX is to compare base Limited and the MDX w/o any packages since it is difficult to even find a new 4Runner with NAV.
4Runner LTD with QV package + Tow TMZ app 34K
MDX Base TMZ app 38K
At least these are the numbers for SE PA.
The seating comment is certainly a fair one and something that does bother a significant amount of people. I'm not sure that it is something that one could get used to if it bothered them initially. Fortunately, neither my wife (who realistically will NEVER actually drive it) were at all uncomfortable in it. Probably cause I am already accustomed to driving with the seat down as far as it will go with the back of the seat tilted back more than most people.
This will probably be a very difficult decision. The only other car still in the running is the new Murano which I have yet to drive (and I am aware that the wife thinks it is "ugly" - not that her view would affect my decision ).
The D37 is newer and has more torque and HP, or they could use an EcoBoost.
That's definitley a little while off. And the Flex needs a good engine now.
That's the opposite of what I was saying. Feature-wise the Flex SEL is comparable to the Acadia SLT 4SB. Price-wise the Flex SEL is $5000 cheaper (FWD models).
Acadia is definitely not 5g more expensive than the Flex. The SLE starts just under 30g. the SLT 1 is 33g. The SLT 2 is 36 g. That compares to 28 (or almost 29) 32 (or almost 33) and 34 (or almost 35). I say almost because I can't remember if the prices were something like 32990. So they are definitely close.
Having only sat in 2 or 3 Acadias I don't see how you or anyone could feel a GMC product is worth that kind of premium but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to.
A lot of it will be style. Sure, there are many who don't like the looks of the Acadia, but it's a more widely accepted look. There will no doubt be more who don't like the look of the Flex, as it looks so different. As for me, there are few cars on the market today whose looks I truely hate (the Tribeca is one of them). I don't think the Flex looks terribly bad. That's just not nearly enough to buy one.
It would seem that the only "real-life" price comparison between the 4Runner and the MDX is to compare base Limited and the MDX w/o any packages since it is difficult to even find a new 4Runner with NAV.
There is a large margin between the two. But Toyotas can get very pricey (a 42g minivan?! I don't think so).
The only other car still in the running is the new Murano which I have yet to drive
Haven't driven it yet, but I hear it's much improved over the outgoing model.
(and I am aware that the wife thinks it is "ugly" - not that her view would affect my decision ).
What got me interested in it was the feature set, but now that I see the styling - forget it.
You're right. Not that the Flex looks bad, but it doesn't cater to the masses in styling, and that IS what Ford needs. There aren't enough family CUV buyers out there who want to be defferent for Ford to have an entirely seperate vehicle, and still sell numbers similar to a Highlander or Acadia or Pilot. And that IS what Ford wants- to sell in numbers like that. Why is the Buick so stylish? Yes it has to be, because the competition is.Now I'm sure about to get a whole lot of defense from diehard Ford (FS) fans.
It's also distinctive enough that you don't like it whereas others, myself included, think it's an excellent design.
We may like it, but I know there will be many more who don't. That might not be all bad, but also, Ford can't get any gray area. There will be few who would buy it like a Highlander (plain styling). It's a love it- hate it design. A CX-9 or VC would also get noticed on the road, but they aren't love it hate it designs.
Ford can afford to be creative with the Flex because they'll have a similarly sized car-based Explorer on th lot right next to it which you can guarantee will appeal to the masses as all past truck-based Explorers have.
That's totally off. Ford will have to differentiate the two so they won't cut into each others' sales, there fore the Explorer will probably be marketed like the Jeep Patriot- a CUV that has "off road capability". A crossover for the real SUV people.The Flex will definitly be marketed to a wider variety of people.
Banking Ford's future on one vehicle's design is a gross miscalculation because the picture is much larger than that.
True- but ford has had several misses in the past 4-5 years. They need anything they can get (they finally did get one vehicle right- the Edge).
Do you think the Enclave is going to save GM too?
No- but it saved Buick.And it's got MB and Lexus shoppers looking. The Enclave has definitely done its job.
I noticed it because I've been looking for a vehcile that meets our families needs of space, features, economy, etc and there are few choices that dont exceed our means in anything besides a base model. That was what caused me to look in the first place. It is the unfortunate Scion-stretch-station-wagon look that ruined it.
Banking Ford's future on one vehicle's design is a gross miscalculation
That isn't the Flex's fault alone. If you look at the rest of the product lineup they are playing it safe in many cases. No real inspired designs, lots of 'evolved' redesigns with a few minor changes here and there. That isn't going to get the job done - in the same way (as you point out) that the lambda platform alone isn't going to rescue GM. No arguement there.
Ford is really slow to bring some of the things they need into their product line - like Eccoboost. That engine has been rumored for some time - they need it yesterday, but it will likely be a long time before we see it in widespread use. Things like that are why I see touble for Ford. They are moving too slow towards the changes they need.
Ford is really slow to bring some of the things they need into their product line - like Eccoboost.
Um, it was first introduced last Spring in a concept and was called TwinForce. It's going to be in a real vehicle that you can buy within the next couple of months. Honda, you might also know them as the world's largest engine mfr, has been talking about how U.S. versions of their cars and "trucks" are going to get their new diesel engines for nearly a year now too. Let's try to be fair from now on.
What about the things Ford was first in? Like first hybrid SUV, first 6-speed tranny in a mid-sized sedan, first body on frame SUV with IRS, etc.
That isn't the Flex's fault alone. If you look at the rest of the product lineup they are playing it safe in many cases. No real inspired designs, lots of 'evolved' redesigns with a few minor changes here and there. That isn't going to get the job done
So they need more emotional designs, yet now that they have one you don't like it? I'm not sure what you're getting at here?
ateixeira wrote "If you haven't used one yet, just know that a GPS is a lot more than just a map."
Agreed. I mostly find the Navigation screen is a very big help in controlling all the media equipment in my Taurus X Limited. I've got many media sources (AM/FM/ Satellite Radio / Front 6-CD player / Bluetooth streaming selected from any phone in the car / USB input / Analog Audio input jack / rear DVD or CD player) and many options in each than can fill a full screen or two. And that's just for media control.
The screen is also useful for phone books, number entry and selection, and phone control.
Finally, the screen is useful for it's nominal purpose: navigation maps, choosing destinations, picking Points of Interest, and so on.
I have several portable Garmin GPS units for my cars and biking. They're much lower cost ($300-$500). But the screens are much smaller. I've found GPS cost goes mostly by screen size, and lesser so by features. Similar screen size Garmins tend to go over $1000 as well. Also, I've discovered my Taurus X Navigation System uses more than GPS satellites. It also reads distance and steering wheel position, and thus was able to continue to navigate in tunnels, even ones with turns within them or immediately after. Same in big cities with tall buildings and no reception where my Garmin portables cut out due to reception issues.
Another advantage of the built-in units is that someone is less likely to break into my car to steal the GPS. And the built-in unit starts up faster and is always immediately available when needed with out having to assemble my portable unit and placing it on the dash.
I got my Navigation System at Invoice price, around $1700. Obviously I feel it's worth it.
ateixeira wrote "Getting back on topic, for a big crossover, I'd want a built-in GPS for the backup cam alone."
The backup up camera is one thing I've come to dislike. I've ridden with friends who've had back up cameras and they are actually more dangerous than no camera. If they look at it, they miss cars driving by as they're backing out. And the wide angle lens makes it impossible to judge distance to not hit anything. And the mirror image thing messes with quick judgment. I much prefer the sonar beeping that increases in frequency as you back up. I've found that it's much better to have your head up looking in all directions for what's coming your way, while the beeps in your ear tell you how close your bumper is to anything like a curb, child, toy, or car parked behind you.
I like the RDX...it's a bit quirky and so am I. I would prefer a 6 over the T4. I won't pay what a nicely equipped x3 will cost and I'm not a Volvo fan.
I'm no Volvo fan either, but I think this is one of the best designs they've had in years. As for the Acura, I'm not in love with that styling, and I wouldn't be willing to pay that much for so little Acura. But that's just me. The MDX is really the only Acura I'd buy.
I much prefer the sonar beeping that increases in frequency
I'm with you on this one. Ford lead on this feature and that was great. I had it on my former Expedition and LOVED it. I put it back on my must have list. Hard to believe it took GM so long to make widespread use of this tech. They used it here and there, but not extensively. The bigger the vehicle the nicer it is to have, but it is also nice to have period. I always have trouble judging the distance to my bumper when I am backing in, that is no problem with the sonar system.
Anybody know how Ford NAV compares to GM NAV? Sounds like Ford is better. GM seems to take too long to recalculate routes from what I've read. My garmin streetpilot does it in less than a tenth of a mile. That seems right to me. I've seen reports here of two tenths of a mile - that seems grossly inaccurate.
Acadia is definitely not 5g more expensive than the Flex. The SLE starts just under 30g. the SLT 1 is 33g. The SLT 2 is 36 g. That compares to 28 (or almost 29) 32 (or almost 33) and 34 (or almost 35). I say almost because I can't remember if the prices were something like 32990. So they are definitely close.
Nope. Looking at the standard features for the mid-level FWD Flex SEL, which bases at $32070, and the standard features for the top of the line FWD Acadia SLT 4SB, which bases at $36980, those are the most comparable matches. The Flex Limited FWD, which bases at 34705, has too much more on the features list to be comparable to the SLT 4SB. So if you do the math again you'll see that the two I'm comparing are in fact $5000 apart in price. The Limited is a downright steal compared to the Acadia or any other Lambda for that matter.
That being said, the styling is what will sell, or not sell, the Flex anyway. Ever since they first showed a production version the comments on this forums have either been yay or nay. You seem to be a little in the middle and you'd be the first I've come across to feel that way about the Flex.
That's totally off. Ford will have to differentiate the two so they won't cut into each others' sales, there fore the Explorer will probably be marketed like the Jeep Patriot- a CUV that has "off road capability". A crossover for the real SUV people.The Flex will definitly be marketed to a wider variety of people.
Right, but the point is they'll be selling 2 models at the same time. One for people who want something more rugged and SUV like (Does the Pilot come to mind?) and one for those who want something a little more modern and van-like. Compare that to what you'll find on a GMC, Buick, Chevy, or Saturn lot which is only one of those choices but in a much more universal package. Either way every base is covered. Toyota seems to be going down this path in the near future too.
True- but ford has had several misses in the past 4-5 years. They need anything they can get (they finally did get one vehicle right- the Edge).
One? Mustang, F-150, Fusion, Escape? All have been refreshed in the last 4-5 years and all have met or exceeded expectations. Maybe they weren't all top sellers but not one of them has become a rental lot darling like models of yore.
Um, it was first introduced last Spring in a concept
It has been talked about for much longer than that by people who have been working on it at blueovalnews. You are talking about the moment of announcement to the public. My point here is that the tech is not new - SO - why the long dev cycle Ford? Much too long really.
So they need more emotional designs, yet now that they have one you don't like it?
This isn't an emotional design - it is a shoebox with wheels. Ever see Chevy Chase in National Lampoons Vacation? Every time I see the Flex (the outside), I think about that movie for some reason.
I much prefer the sonar beeping that increases in frequency
I'd want to have both. I have a third-party sonar system installed on my 4Runner. However, a backup camera is still high on my want-to-have feature list. The main thing to remember is that both are aids for reversing. They are not substitutes for being careful when reversing.
It's a little more complicated for me, as navigation is not an option in my area (Hawaii). This is actually an advantage that both the Highlander and the Murano have over some of the others, at least for me.
Hey Tourguide, I hate that you ruled out the Highlander because of not having the sonar for back-up. It is a great SUV...smooth, quiet. I guess we all get spoiled with modern tech..5 or more years ago, we would still be depending solely on our road maps and rear view mirrors without additional help ! LOL Technical stuff has come along way..it is truely amazing whats out there. It does come with a high price tag though! I love the Highlander. Best of luck in what you decide to get.
Exactly, the only difference is the exterior styling, some cosmetic add on's and technological upgrades. If the styling of the Freestyle/TX was so bland to some, why not make the minor styling changes that makes it more attractive and save the millions it takes to develop a new design. (Of course they'd have to market it). I keep thinking of the millions of dollars Ford wasted designing, building and shipping the Freestyle/TX only to drop them both after three years. My guess is they can't afford too many more financial blunders like that before they have to file for bankruptcy. Ford is taking a big chance here with the Flex, and it's partner the Edge. If the Flex fails, my prediction is Ford becomes America's truck builder.
I would like to add to your post. I have a 08 Highlander Limited, and I love it ! I will say I would like your idea of having a beep system (sonar) to go along with the back-up camera. While the camera is helpful, you can only see directly behind, not much with the sides. I thought I would be able to see more, but I don't. I still find myself looking back more than I thought I would. I guess I thought the camera would give a wider span, and its attention to details was stronger. I could actually do without it at this point. I don't seem to trust it enough! Maybe I had the wrong concept of what it is suppose to do. If Toyota could add the sonar along with this, it would maybe help me feel more comfortable.
name them then...FS is one, 500 & variants to a lesser extent as it sold though not to hopes and dreams amounts
That's a start. Let's not forget the Navigator, the Aviator, the Mark LT and the minivans. And I bet the Lincoln MKS will flop, too. Ford was nuts when they thought they could save the FS/ 500 by changing the name and adding the ugly fronts. NO. Absolutely not.
How do YOU KNOW? it may outsell the lambda's when it gets here, it may not but that begs the question, how do YOU KNOW?
Doubt it will outsell the lambdas. I know because it appeals to less people.
the VC, correct as it is quite plain and the CX is absolutely polarizing, you've heard it here.
Oppinion.
any other "facts" you'd like to offer to the class
If Toyota could add the sonar along with this, it would maybe help me feel more comfortable
This was one thing that helped me in rule out the Highlander actually. Having had this feature in the past (and looking for it now) and knowing it wasn't even offered on the Highlander. I thought the sonar system was fantastic. Great tech there.
Anyone here have experience with both GM and Ford NAV? How do they compare?
The Limited is a downright steal compared to the Acadia or any other Lambda for that matter.
What?! What features are offered on the BASE limited that aren't on the SLT-2?
But, if you are right, it's as I've said before. Ford has to offer so many toys at a lower price. It's almost like Hyundai and Toyota, because Hyundai knows that they have to offer a whole lot more on the Sonata to compete with the Camry, but the Camry can have a higher price without some of the features. Why? For many reason, but a big one is that Toyota knows they don't have to go all out. GM knows buyers will pay 40k+ for the Acadia. Ford knows their buyers most likely won't.
You seem to be a little in the middle and you'd be the first I've come across to feel that way about the Flex.
Yes, I think the same thing. I said it myself- there will be few in the middle. I'm one of those middle people. I don't think the styling is bad, but it's not what I'd be looking for.
Bottom line...what's the big deal with the Flex. Other than more 2nd row legroom it's equal to the TX.
Makes me wonder. Being a person who likes to get the best deal, even though I'm not a fan of the TX's styling, I would get it before I get the Flex. Plus, right now rebates are HUGE on TX. Why spend more money on a box? I think Ford's whole reason for the Flex was styling. People complained the FS's styling was too bland, so they come out with this. But why spend thousands more?
One for people who want something more rugged and SUV like (Does the Pilot come to mind?) and one for those who want something a little more modern and van-like. Compare that to what you'll find on a GMC, Buick, Chevy, or Saturn lot which is only one of those choices but in a much more universal package.
You are half right. The Acadia would be considered as rugged as the Pilot, and the Enclave and Chevy would be more minivan- comfort like. So they have their bases covered. Only Buicks and GMCs are on the same lots, but Chevy's aren't.
One? Mustang, F-150, Fusion, Escape? All have been refreshed in the last 4-5 years and all have met or exceeded expectations. Maybe they weren't all top sellers but not one of them has become a rental lot darling like models of yore.
Let's not forget the Navigator, the Aviator, the Mark LT and the minivans. And I bet the Lincoln MKS will flop, too. Ford was nuts when they thought they could save the FS/ 500 by changing the name and adding the ugly fronts. The Explorer and Mountaineer are sinking ships, but we'll let those go, as gas is high and the Explorer is gettng another shot at life. Really MErcury's entire brand, which is why they are being discontinued.
This was one thing that helped me in rule out the Highlander actually. Having had this feature in the past (and looking for it now) and knowing it wasn't even offered on the Highlander. I thought the sonar system was fantastic.
My Toyota dealer offers a dealer-installed Echomaster reverse sensing system for about $450 installed. The sensors are color-keyed to the bumper. The only downside is that it's an audible warning only (I know some factory systems also have a visual indicator).
I purchased it with my 4Runner and will definitely get the same system if I choose the Highlander (even with the reverse camera).
Go ahead and read it a couple more times. Sounds crazy doesn't it. That's the idea I had when I read about BMW's future people mover recently. Everyone's obsessed with CUVs, and wagon is a curse word for automakers. But BMW's bringing out a 6-7 seat station wagon based off the 5 series. I personally like the idea- a seven seating car. As long as they don't do another R-class, they should have a success.
Also I saw that Huyndai plans to make a CUV that slots above the VC (?). It looks like a minivan. The word Crossover seems to have little meaning these days.
I have build one on ford website with same options as my Acadia, so at end Flex 2 grand chipper than Acadia.
You're not keeping up again vad. We're going buy official numbers I posted several posts ago. That web site you used to price the Flex is all unofficial and is/was being used by Ford as research so they could come up with the official packages and prices I posted.
It has been talked about for much longer than that by people who have been working on it at blueovalnews. You are talking about the moment of announcement to the public. My point here is that the tech is not new - SO - why the long dev cycle Ford? Much too long really.
I don't buy that at all. I read blueovalnews and blueovalforums every day and never saw any mention of these new twin turbo motors before the announcement last Winter. You're going to have to prove this one to me and show me what I missed.
This isn't an emotional design - it is a shoebox with wheels.
Purely opinion. I think you'll find that many others, myself included, find the design to be rather striking. You said in one of your previous posts that you want to see new and different designs. I'm curious to hear what designs out there now are new and different in the mainstream market?
You are half right. The Acadia would be considered as rugged as the Pilot, and the Enclave and Chevy would be more minivan- comfort like. So they have their bases covered. Only Buicks and GMCs are on the same lots, but Chevy's aren't.
Actually you're also only half right. Buicks are not on the same lots as GMCs in my area. GMC lots are shared with Pontiac. Buick dealers around her are all on their own. Therefore there's only one Lamda on each GM lot in some places. I understand GM is supposed to merger some brands into the same dealer lots but we have not seen that here yet.
Really MErcury's entire brand, which is why they are being discontinued.
It's true that Ford won't give us any details on Mercury but it's not dead yet. I'm betting we'll hear something about Mercury's future after Jag and LR are sold off later this month.
I'm curious to hear what designs out there now are new
We are discussing here my personal preference. There is a great deal of same-ness out there in designs these days. You alluded to this in your reply. I prefer sleek lines myself and curves. Squared off Scion-esque stuff doesn't appeal to me.
I don't buy that at all.
You've probably got me here - I could be wrong (hey - it happened once before). In the rumors section I remember reading about twinforce (was the development codename). I cannot recall exactly how long ago that was. At least a year.
This still begs the question if a year ago this was talked about, (they were clearly in development before that) why so long to bring this into widespread use? It will be at least a year to two, or more before these begin making it into mass implementation. In the next year or two we may see some limited use, like in the lincolns. Ford has lagged in the economy area (not as bad as Chrysler) so this can't happen fast enough.
"This still begs the question if a year ago this was talked about, (they were clearly in development before that) why so long to bring this into widespread use? It will be at least a year to two, or more before these begin making it into mass implementation. In the next year or two we may see some limited use, like in the lincolns. Ford has lagged in the economy area (not as bad as Chrysler) so this can't happen fast enough."
just a thought,
you can ask the question why didn't gm introduce the DI engine with the lambda's, same idea (lagging), different calander...
you can ask the question why didn't gm introduce the DI engine with the lambda's, same idea (lagging), different calander...
Good question - especially considering that DI has been used extensivley in Europe for years. No idea. Perhaps no percieved need when petrol was $1.50 a gallon. Now that we are double that, and fuel economy is a top consideration then it becomes important. GMs 6 (the 3800) has been a great motor getting really good numbers on the highway. My brother-in-law has a late model lumina with that motor and he gets 30 mpg on the highway. Good numbers.
I predict we will see turbo versions of the new DI motors down the road as optional equipment. That would be SO like GM to meter out the tech.
the US auto industry pales in this arena largely due to it's own arrogance and lobbying efforts to stifle CAFE over the years. the shortsightedness has finally caught up. but since we are in the US, that idea confounds most...IMO as opposed to passing it as fact or anything...
GM has extended the life of that tech for much longer than I expected. My comment here was in reference to Ford's push to bring turbo into widespread use. This would have huge leap forward (for GM), way out in front of everyone else. Instead, without turbo, it is provided as an incremental boost, and turbo will be the next if I am correct. In defense of Ford and in spite of the fact they seem to be taking a long time to bring Ecoboost to market, at least their new offerings will provide substantial hp/torque improvements.
Thank you. Well said. That's i was trying to tell this forum for long time. Acadia is best value. I'm always try to stay away from buying options. It's fraud all this options. Nav. system replaced by ONstar/MapsQuest on GM cars and it works perfect when you need it.
Sorry Vad. I think you may have taken it one step further than it was meant to go.
I think the GM's are a good value. Second best value in fact based on current pricing. They were the last to come off my list...before the final car standing...the VC as you know.
$32K for a stripped Acadia? Or $33 850 for the VC with AWD, sunroof, leather, rear sonar sensors, heated seats, power seat, steering wheel audio, very good third row yet 10" shorter, better warranty, etc.
I didn't care too much about leather. It's a perk but not necessary. But AWD and everything else for an extra $2K? And I actually think Hyundai is more reliable than GM. Sold! Best value running away my friend!
When the Flex was in prototype, I thought it was going to be the Ford minivan replacement, but with the specs not being that much better than the FS/TX (soon to be FS/TX/FLEX!) it's hard to figure out what Ford is trying to do.
I think that the FS is a great car (I have one) but for whatever reason, they didn't sell, mostly I think due to poor marketing by Ford. Now Ford has the TX, which is being advertised as poorly as the FS. The only ads you see are for the Edge. So maybe when the Flex comes out Ford will advertise it and maybe it will do well, but not because it's any better than the FS/TX, but just because it might be advertised better.
But the Flex to me is a big disappointment to me. I wish is had more cargo space behind the 3rd row and better hip/shoulder room (enough for 3 across in the 3rd row and better in the 2nd row. It seems to me that the Flex should have been Ford's big CUV, not just a TX with more 2nd row legroom. I like the more car-like attributes of the Flex/FS/TX, as compared to an Acadia for example, but it still falls short of a minivan replacement.
The Flex still has the same flip and fold 3rd row which really cuts into cargo space behind the 2nd row when the 3rd row is folded, since the whole floor raises up when you fold back the 3rd row. For me with the FS it's not such a big deal, but on the other hand, I think if they'd have the 2nd and 3rd rows designed to fold forward and down, there could be an extra 6" in cargo height that would have resulted in much more CuFt of usable cargo space. Plus they should have made the Flex wide enough to hold the 4x8 sheet of plywood, not just for the do-it-youselfers, but to give more hip room inside.
I have a Honda Fit that's only 157" long, yet has 21CuFt of cargo space, and with the 2nd row folded it's up to 42CuFt, so maybe I'm spoiled with good space efficiency. I'm not sure the Flex will sell well or not, but I'd never buy one. If they kept the 2nd row legroom to 40" instead of 44" and beefed up the cargo space instead, then I would have been interested. And if they'd get the MPG up to 25/30 city/highway, then I'd have been a lot more interested. But I can see why they'd get rid of the TX when the Flex comes out, since there just about the same vehicle minus the style difference.
Comments
squint and look at a flex and see xxxl mini cooper, I'd argue that might not have the OLD TIMER connotations your blinders lead you to see, or not. I'd also argue squint again and see scaled up japanese "cube" vehicles in proportion, are they marketed to OLD TIMER's, I didn't think so.
my $.02, your comments are more than a little wide of the mark.
Actually after I looked at the prices again and compared them to those of one of the top dogs, the Acadia, it is actually priced really well IMO. It comes with more standard than the GMC yet costs thousands less. It is a bit smaller though. But not that much.
I think the engine is a mistak. They shouldn't be using the D35 for something this big considering what the competition is using these days IMO.
That's Ford's newest V6. It makes 265hp and is used in the similarly sized TX. What else would they use?
Actually after I looked at the prices again and compared them to those of one of the top dogs, the Acadia, it is actually priced really well IMO. It comes with more standard than the GMC yet costs thousands less. It is a bit smaller though. But not that much.
Length wise, the Acadia is shorter. So really they are the same size, except for height. As for the price- yes I did notice it was priced comparably to the Acadia. That's the problem. I'm not bashing on Flex, but I don't think as many people would be willing to spend that amount on it as the GMC. It's just so different looking that it caters to only certain tastes. That said, it is smart that Ford is giving buyers a few more standard features than GM- they will need to in order to keep up with their competitors.
The D37 is newer and has more torque and HP, or they could use an EcoBoost. I wouldn't be surprised to see either of them in the 2010 flex however.
As for the price- yes I did notice it was priced comparably to the Acadia. That's the problem.
That's the opposite of what I was saying. Feature-wise the Flex SEL is comparable to the Acadia SLT 4SB. Price-wise the Flex SEL is $5000 cheaper (FWD models). I think you'd have to add the comfort group to the Flex to make it truly comparable to the top Acadia but even then the difference is $4000 or thereabouts. Having only sat in 2 or 3 Acadias I don't see how you or anyone could feel a GMC product is worth that kind of premium but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to.
Funny thing is - I am comparing with and still seriously considering the 4Runner. Have also driven that (V6) and find that it handles surprisingly well especially with the XREAS suspension. The 4Runner, of course, is a real SUV (body-on-frame) and has true off-road capability. It does not compare well so far as bells and whistles go with the MDX, but it does have a reputation for rock-solid reliability and we are planning to travel to the Rocky Mountain area and upward to Alaska. And I have to admit that I do find the "trucky" look appealing. Nice to have so many choices.
Seriously, if this is the best we can expect from Ford then I expect they won't last much longer before declaring bankruptcy. How anybody green lighted that "family truckster" body simply boggles my mind.
What got me interested in it was the feature set, but now that I see the styling - forget it. Ford calls it 'distinctive' - well I guess that would be one word to use, not the one I'd choose to be sure. If you look at the old Freestyle body, and the former 500 design you can see the design influence - ugh. Why would I want a vehicle that says - OLD TIMER ON BOARD?
I have a relative that bought a 2008 4-runner right before I got my MDX. They have extremely close stickers. It will be fun to compare them sitting next to one another when I see him this summer.
In saying all of that you are proving Ford's point. It's distinctive enough that you noticed it. It's also distinctive enough that you don't like it whereas others, myself included, think it's an excellent design. I'm tired of all these swoopy, curvy CUV designs to be honest but they are here to stay for a while I guess.
The Enclave's design seems to cater to the masses, meaning everyone seems to like it or, at the least, some aspect of it. But Buick needs that because they sell in low volumes and they can't afford to be more creative (yes, I don't think the Enclave's styling is particularly creative) or they'll lose sales. Ford can afford to be creative with the Flex because they'll have a similarly sized car-based Explorer on th lot right next to it which you can guarantee will appeal to the masses as all past truck-based Explorers have.
Banking Ford's future on one vehicle's design is a gross miscalculation because the picture is much larger than that. Do you think the Enclave is going to save GM too? I'm not looking to start a war with you. Just trying to clear things up a bit. :shades:
Paging Mr. Freealfas, the 70's are calling - your station wagon is now ready for pickup.
Seriously now, I know this is an opinion - I get that. I just personally hate the styling. It looks old TO ME. The Scion knock-off belongs on a short wheelbase. When it is stretched - it looks like a 70s family truckster - sorry it DOES. I am sure it will have some redeeming qualities inside - the exterior appearance won't be one for me.
In all honesty, I like the things Ford has done technology wise - they have been a leader with some really cool features, they just lost my money with the look of their rides - that is all.
4Runner LTD with QV package + Tow TMZ app 34K
MDX Base TMZ app 38K
At least these are the numbers for SE PA.
The seating comment is certainly a fair one and something that does bother a significant amount of people. I'm not sure that it is something that one could get used to if it bothered them initially. Fortunately, neither my wife (who realistically will NEVER actually drive it) were at all uncomfortable in it. Probably cause I am already accustomed to driving with the seat down as far as it will go with the back of the seat tilted back more than most people.
This will probably be a very difficult decision. The only other car still in the running is the new Murano which I have yet to drive (and I am aware that the wife thinks it is "ugly" - not that her view would affect my decision
The outside is "fugly but the interior is great!
Regards,
OW
That's definitley a little while off. And the Flex needs a good engine now.
That's the opposite of what I was saying. Feature-wise the Flex SEL is comparable to the Acadia SLT 4SB. Price-wise the Flex SEL is $5000 cheaper (FWD models).
Acadia is definitely not 5g more expensive than the Flex. The SLE starts just under 30g. the SLT 1 is 33g. The SLT 2 is 36 g. That compares to 28 (or almost 29) 32 (or almost 33) and 34 (or almost 35). I say almost because I can't remember if the prices were something like 32990. So they are definitely close.
Having only sat in 2 or 3 Acadias I don't see how you or anyone could feel a GMC product is worth that kind of premium but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to.
A lot of it will be style. Sure, there are many who don't like the looks of the Acadia, but it's a more widely accepted look. There will no doubt be more who don't like the look of the Flex, as it looks so different. As for me, there are few cars on the market today whose looks I truely hate (the Tribeca is one of them). I don't think the Flex looks terribly bad. That's just not nearly enough to buy one.
There is a large margin between the two. But Toyotas can get very pricey (a 42g minivan?! I don't think so).
The only other car still in the running is the new Murano which I have yet to drive
Haven't driven it yet, but I hear it's much improved over the outgoing model.
(and I am aware that the wife thinks it is "ugly" - not that her view would affect my decision ).
That's what I'm talking about!
You're right. Not that the Flex looks bad, but it doesn't cater to the masses in styling, and that IS what Ford needs. There aren't enough family CUV buyers out there who want to be defferent for Ford to have an entirely seperate vehicle, and still sell numbers similar to a Highlander or Acadia or Pilot. And that IS what Ford wants- to sell in numbers like that. Why is the Buick so stylish? Yes it has to be, because the competition is.Now I'm sure about to get a whole lot of defense from diehard Ford (FS) fans.
We may like it, but I know there will be many more who don't. That might not be all bad, but also, Ford can't get any gray area. There will be few who would buy it like a Highlander (plain styling). It's a love it- hate it design. A CX-9 or VC would also get noticed on the road, but they aren't love it hate it designs.
Ford can afford to be creative with the Flex because they'll have a similarly sized car-based Explorer on th lot right next to it which you can guarantee will appeal to the masses as all past truck-based Explorers have.
That's totally off. Ford will have to differentiate the two so they won't cut into each others' sales, there fore the Explorer will probably be marketed like the Jeep Patriot- a CUV that has "off road capability". A crossover for the real SUV people.The Flex will definitly be marketed to a wider variety of people.
Banking Ford's future on one vehicle's design is a gross miscalculation because the picture is much larger than that.
True- but ford has had several misses in the past 4-5 years. They need anything they can get (they finally did get one vehicle right- the Edge).
Do you think the Enclave is going to save GM too?
No- but it saved Buick.And it's got MB and Lexus shoppers looking. The Enclave has definitely done its job.
I noticed it because I've been looking for a vehcile that meets our families needs of space, features, economy, etc and there are few choices that dont exceed our means in anything besides a base model. That was what caused me to look in the first place. It is the unfortunate Scion-stretch-station-wagon look that ruined it.
Banking Ford's future on one vehicle's design is a gross miscalculation
That isn't the Flex's fault alone. If you look at the rest of the product lineup they are playing it safe in many cases. No real inspired designs, lots of 'evolved' redesigns with a few minor changes here and there. That isn't going to get the job done - in the same way (as you point out) that the lambda platform alone isn't going to rescue GM. No arguement there.
Ford is really slow to bring some of the things they need into their product line - like Eccoboost. That engine has been rumored for some time - they need it yesterday, but it will likely be a long time before we see it in widespread use. Things like that are why I see touble for Ford. They are moving too slow towards the changes they need.
How do YOU KNOW? it may outsell the lambda's when it gets here, it may not but that begs the question, how do YOU KNOW?
"It's a love it- hate it design. A CX-9 or VC would also get noticed on the road, but they aren't love it hate it designs. "
the VC, correct as it is quite plain and the CX is absolutely polarizing, you've heard it here.
"True- but ford has had several misses in the past 4-5 years"
name them then...FS is one, 500 & variants to a lesser extent as it sold though not to hopes and dreams amounts.
any other "facts" you'd like to offer to the class
Length 202"/200"
width 76"/75"
height 67/67"
legroom rows 1/2/3
40/40 44/40 33/33
hiproom
55/55 55/56 41/45
shoulder & headroom are equal
Cargo space behind rows 1/2/3 CuFt
86/85 45/47 20/16
Bottom line...what's the big deal with the Flex. Other than more 2nd row legroom it's equal to the TX.
Um, it was first introduced last Spring in a concept and was called TwinForce. It's going to be in a real vehicle that you can buy within the next couple of months. Honda, you might also know them as the world's largest engine mfr, has been talking about how U.S. versions of their cars and "trucks" are going to get their new diesel engines for nearly a year now too. Let's try to be fair from now on.
What about the things Ford was first in? Like first hybrid SUV, first 6-speed tranny in a mid-sized sedan, first body on frame SUV with IRS, etc.
That isn't the Flex's fault alone. If you look at the rest of the product lineup they are playing it safe in many cases. No real inspired designs, lots of 'evolved' redesigns with a few minor changes here and there. That isn't going to get the job done
So they need more emotional designs, yet now that they have one you don't like it? I'm not sure what you're getting at here?
Agreed. I mostly find the Navigation screen is a very big help in controlling all the media equipment in my Taurus X Limited. I've got many media sources (AM/FM/ Satellite Radio / Front 6-CD player / Bluetooth streaming selected from any phone in the car / USB input / Analog Audio input jack / rear DVD or CD player) and many options in each than can fill a full screen or two. And that's just for media control.
The screen is also useful for phone books, number entry and selection, and phone control.
Finally, the screen is useful for it's nominal purpose: navigation maps, choosing destinations, picking Points of Interest, and so on.
I have several portable Garmin GPS units for my cars and biking. They're much lower cost ($300-$500). But the screens are much smaller. I've found GPS cost goes mostly by screen size, and lesser so by features. Similar screen size Garmins tend to go over $1000 as well. Also, I've discovered my Taurus X Navigation System uses more than GPS satellites. It also reads distance and steering wheel position, and thus was able to continue to navigate in tunnels, even ones with turns within them or immediately after. Same in big cities with tall buildings and no reception where my Garmin portables cut out due to reception issues.
Another advantage of the built-in units is that someone is less likely to break into my car to steal the GPS. And the built-in unit starts up faster and is always immediately available when needed with out having to assemble my portable unit and placing it on the dash.
I got my Navigation System at Invoice price, around $1700. Obviously I feel it's worth it.
ateixeira wrote "Getting back on topic, for a big crossover, I'd want a built-in GPS for the backup cam alone."
The backup up camera is one thing I've come to dislike. I've ridden with friends who've had back up cameras and they are actually more dangerous than no camera. If they look at it, they miss cars driving by as they're backing out. And the wide angle lens makes it impossible to judge distance to not hit anything. And the mirror image thing messes with quick judgment.
I much prefer the sonar beeping that increases in frequency as you back up. I've found that it's much better to have your head up looking in all directions for what's coming your way, while the beeps in your ear tell you how close your bumper is to anything like a curb, child, toy, or car parked behind you.
I'm no Volvo fan either, but I think this is one of the best designs they've had in years. As for the Acura, I'm not in love with that styling, and I wouldn't be willing to pay that much for so little Acura. But that's just me. The MDX is really the only Acura I'd buy.
I'm with you on this one. Ford lead on this feature and that was great. I had it on my former Expedition and LOVED it. I put it back on my must have list. Hard to believe it took GM so long to make widespread use of this tech. They used it here and there, but not extensively. The bigger the vehicle the nicer it is to have, but it is also nice to have period. I always have trouble judging the distance to my bumper when I am backing in, that is no problem with the sonar system.
Anybody know how Ford NAV compares to GM NAV? Sounds like Ford is better. GM seems to take too long to recalculate routes from what I've read. My garmin streetpilot does it in less than a tenth of a mile. That seems right to me. I've seen reports here of two tenths of a mile - that seems grossly inaccurate.
Nope. Looking at the standard features for the mid-level FWD Flex SEL, which bases at $32070, and the standard features for the top of the line FWD Acadia SLT 4SB, which bases at $36980, those are the most comparable matches. The Flex Limited FWD, which bases at 34705, has too much more on the features list to be comparable to the SLT 4SB. So if you do the math again you'll see that the two I'm comparing are in fact $5000 apart in price. The Limited is a downright steal compared to the Acadia or any other Lambda for that matter.
That being said, the styling is what will sell, or not sell, the Flex anyway. Ever since they first showed a production version the comments on this forums have either been yay or nay. You seem to be a little in the middle and you'd be the first I've come across to feel that way about the Flex.
Right, but the point is they'll be selling 2 models at the same time. One for people who want something more rugged and SUV like (Does the Pilot come to mind?) and one for those who want something a little more modern and van-like. Compare that to what you'll find on a GMC, Buick, Chevy, or Saturn lot which is only one of those choices but in a much more universal package. Either way every base is covered. Toyota seems to be going down this path in the near future too.
True- but ford has had several misses in the past 4-5 years. They need anything they can get (they finally did get one vehicle right- the Edge).
One? Mustang, F-150, Fusion, Escape? All have been refreshed in the last 4-5 years and all have met or exceeded expectations. Maybe they weren't all top sellers but not one of them has become a rental lot darling like models of yore.
It has been talked about for much longer than that by people who have been working on it at blueovalnews. You are talking about the moment of announcement to the public. My point here is that the tech is not new - SO - why the long dev cycle Ford? Much too long really.
So they need more emotional designs, yet now that they have one you don't like it?
This isn't an emotional design - it is a shoebox with wheels. Ever see Chevy Chase in National Lampoons Vacation? Every time I see the Flex (the outside), I think about that movie for some reason.
I'd want to have both. I have a third-party sonar system installed on my 4Runner. However, a backup camera is still high on my want-to-have feature list. The main thing to remember is that both are aids for reversing. They are not substitutes for being careful when reversing.
It's a little more complicated for me, as navigation is not an option in my area (Hawaii). This is actually an advantage that both the Highlander and the Murano have over some of the others, at least for me.
I hate that you ruled out the Highlander because of not having the sonar for back-up. It is a great SUV...smooth, quiet. I guess we all get spoiled with modern tech..5 or more years ago, we would still be depending solely on our road maps and rear view mirrors without additional help ! LOL
Technical stuff has come along way..it is truely amazing whats out there. It does come with a high price tag though!
I love the Highlander. Best of luck in what you decide to get.
While the camera is helpful, you can only see directly behind, not much with the sides. I thought I would be able to see more, but I don't. I still find myself looking back more than I thought I would. I guess I thought the camera would give a wider span, and its attention to details was stronger. I could actually do without it at this point. I don't seem to trust it enough! Maybe I had the wrong concept of what it is suppose to do.
If Toyota could add the sonar along with this, it would maybe help me feel more comfortable.
That's a start. Let's not forget the Navigator, the Aviator, the Mark LT and the minivans. And I bet the Lincoln MKS will flop, too. Ford was nuts when they thought they could save the FS/ 500 by changing the name and adding the ugly fronts. NO. Absolutely not.
How do YOU KNOW? it may outsell the lambda's when it gets here, it may not but that begs the question, how do YOU KNOW?
Doubt it will outsell the lambdas. I know because it appeals to less people.
the VC, correct as it is quite plain and the CX is absolutely polarizing, you've heard it here.
Oppinion.
any other "facts" you'd like to offer to the class
Let's not go down that road.
This was one thing that helped me in rule out the Highlander actually. Having had this feature in the past (and looking for it now) and knowing it wasn't even offered on the Highlander. I thought the sonar system was fantastic. Great tech there.
Anyone here have experience with both GM and Ford NAV? How do they compare?
What?! What features are offered on the BASE limited that aren't on the SLT-2?
But, if you are right, it's as I've said before. Ford has to offer so many toys at a lower price. It's almost like Hyundai and Toyota, because Hyundai knows that they have to offer a whole lot more on the Sonata to compete with the Camry, but the Camry can have a higher price without some of the features. Why? For many reason, but a big one is that Toyota knows they don't have to go all out. GM knows buyers will pay 40k+ for the Acadia. Ford knows their buyers most likely won't.
You seem to be a little in the middle and you'd be the first I've come across to feel that way about the Flex.
Yes, I think the same thing. I said it myself- there will be few in the middle. I'm one of those middle people. I don't think the styling is bad, but it's not what I'd be looking for.
Makes me wonder. Being a person who likes to get the best deal, even though I'm not a fan of the TX's styling, I would get it before I get the Flex. Plus, right now rebates are HUGE on TX. Why spend more money on a box? I think Ford's whole reason for the Flex was styling. People complained the FS's styling was too bland, so they come out with this. But why spend thousands more?
You are half right. The Acadia would be considered as rugged as the Pilot, and the Enclave and Chevy would be more minivan- comfort like. So they have their bases covered. Only Buicks and GMCs are on the same lots, but Chevy's aren't.
One? Mustang, F-150, Fusion, Escape? All have been refreshed in the last 4-5 years and all have met or exceeded expectations. Maybe they weren't all top sellers but not one of them has become a rental lot darling like models of yore.
Let's not forget the Navigator, the Aviator, the Mark LT and the minivans. And I bet the Lincoln MKS will flop, too. Ford was nuts when they thought they could save the FS/ 500 by changing the name and adding the ugly fronts. The Explorer and Mountaineer are sinking ships, but we'll let those go, as gas is high and the Explorer is gettng another shot at life. Really MErcury's entire brand, which is why they are being discontinued.
My Toyota dealer offers a dealer-installed Echomaster reverse sensing system for about $450 installed. The sensors are color-keyed to the bumper. The only downside is that it's an audible warning only (I know some factory systems also have a visual indicator).
I purchased it with my 4Runner and will definitely get the same system if I choose the Highlander (even with the reverse camera).
Also I saw that Huyndai plans to make a CUV that slots above the VC (?). It looks like a minivan. The word Crossover seems to have little meaning these days.
You're not keeping up again vad. We're going buy official numbers I posted several posts ago. That web site you used to price the Flex is all unofficial and is/was being used by Ford as research so they could come up with the official packages and prices I posted.
I don't buy that at all. I read blueovalnews and blueovalforums every day and never saw any mention of these new twin turbo motors before the announcement last Winter. You're going to have to prove this one to me and show me what I missed.
This isn't an emotional design - it is a shoebox with wheels.
Purely opinion. I think you'll find that many others, myself included, find the design to be rather striking. You said in one of your previous posts that you want to see new and different designs. I'm curious to hear what designs out there now are new and different in the mainstream market?
Actually you're also only half right. Buicks are not on the same lots as GMCs in my area. GMC lots are shared with Pontiac. Buick dealers around her are all on their own. Therefore there's only one Lamda on each GM lot in some places. I understand GM is supposed to merger some brands into the same dealer lots but we have not seen that here yet.
Really MErcury's entire brand, which is why they are being discontinued.
It's true that Ford won't give us any details on Mercury but it's not dead yet. I'm betting we'll hear something about Mercury's future after Jag and LR are sold off later this month.
Yes indeed - as I stated myself earlier.
I'm curious to hear what designs out there now are new
We are discussing here my personal preference. There is a great deal of same-ness out there in designs these days. You alluded to this in your reply. I prefer sleek lines myself and curves. Squared off Scion-esque stuff doesn't appeal to me.
I don't buy that at all.
You've probably got me here - I could be wrong (hey - it happened once before). In the rumors section I remember reading about twinforce (was the development codename). I cannot recall exactly how long ago that was. At least a year.
This still begs the question if a year ago this was talked about, (they were clearly in development before that) why so long to bring this into widespread use? It will be at least a year to two, or more before these begin making it into mass implementation. In the next year or two we may see some limited use, like in the lincolns. Ford has lagged in the economy area (not as bad as Chrysler) so this can't happen fast enough.
just a thought,
you can ask the question why didn't gm introduce the DI engine with the lambda's, same idea (lagging), different calander...
Good question - especially considering that DI has been used extensivley in Europe for years. No idea. Perhaps no percieved need when petrol was $1.50 a gallon. Now that we are double that, and fuel economy is a top consideration then it becomes important. GMs 6 (the 3800) has been a great motor getting really good numbers on the highway. My brother-in-law has a late model lumina with that motor and he gets 30 mpg on the highway. Good numbers.
I predict we will see turbo versions of the new DI motors down the road as optional equipment. That would be SO like GM to meter out the tech.
that's funny... one word - "pushrods"
the US auto industry pales in this arena largely due to it's own arrogance and lobbying efforts to stifle CAFE over the years. the shortsightedness has finally caught up. but since we are in the US, that idea confounds most...IMO as opposed to passing it as fact or anything...
GM has extended the life of that tech for much longer than I expected. My comment here was in reference to Ford's push to bring turbo into widespread use. This would have huge leap forward (for GM), way out in front of everyone else. Instead, without turbo, it is provided as an incremental boost, and turbo will be the next if I am correct. In defense of Ford and in spite of the fact they seem to be taking a long time to bring Ecoboost to market, at least their new offerings will provide substantial hp/torque improvements.
That's i was trying to tell this forum for long time. Acadia is best value.
I'm always try to stay away from buying options. It's fraud all this options. Nav. system replaced by ONstar/MapsQuest on GM cars and it works perfect when you need it.
I think the GM's are a good value. Second best value in fact based on current pricing. They were the last to come off my list...before the final car standing...the VC as you know.
$32K for a stripped Acadia? Or $33 850 for the VC with AWD, sunroof, leather, rear sonar sensors, heated seats, power seat, steering wheel audio, very good third row yet 10" shorter, better warranty, etc.
I didn't care too much about leather. It's a perk but not necessary. But AWD and everything else for an extra $2K? And I actually think Hyundai is more reliable than GM. Sold! Best value running away my friend!
I think that the FS is a great car (I have one) but for whatever reason, they didn't sell, mostly I think due to poor marketing by Ford. Now Ford has the TX, which is being advertised as poorly as the FS. The only ads you see are for the Edge. So maybe when the Flex comes out Ford will advertise it and maybe it will do well, but not because it's any better than the FS/TX, but just because it might be advertised better.
But the Flex to me is a big disappointment to me. I wish is had more cargo space behind the 3rd row and better hip/shoulder room (enough for 3 across in the 3rd row and better in the 2nd row. It seems to me that the Flex should have been Ford's big CUV, not just a TX with more 2nd row legroom. I like the more car-like attributes of the Flex/FS/TX, as compared to an Acadia for example, but it still falls short of a minivan replacement.
The Flex still has the same flip and fold 3rd row which really cuts into cargo space behind the 2nd row when the 3rd row is folded, since the whole floor raises up when you fold back the 3rd row. For me with the FS it's not such a big deal, but on the other hand, I think if they'd have the 2nd and 3rd rows designed to fold forward and down, there could be an extra 6" in cargo height that would have resulted in much more CuFt of usable cargo space. Plus they should have made the Flex wide enough to hold the 4x8 sheet of plywood, not just for the do-it-youselfers, but to give more hip room inside.
I have a Honda Fit that's only 157" long, yet has 21CuFt of cargo space, and with the 2nd row folded it's up to 42CuFt, so maybe I'm spoiled with good space efficiency. I'm not sure the Flex will sell well or not, but I'd never buy one. If they kept the 2nd row legroom to 40" instead of 44" and beefed up the cargo space instead, then I would have been interested. And if they'd get the MPG up to 25/30 city/highway, then I'd have been a lot more interested. But I can see why they'd get rid of the TX when the Flex comes out, since there just about the same vehicle minus the style difference.