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Comments
You are trying to compare vehicle to vehicle. So, in this case I gave you the closest vehicle to vehicle comparison I could find. Seeing these specs, it can be said that the MKZ, as a total vehicle (engine and all) can compete with the Accord. To say it cannot, would be farce. The Current Toyota Camry V6 shows similar time advantages over the Accord V6, about .4 seconds quicker to 60 and .3 seconds quicker in the 1/4 mile, and those cars directly compare. Would you say they don't? I doubt it. So it cannot be sait that Ford cannot, or does not build a competitive vehicle in this class, because they do.
You are absolutely correct in everything you say. Your response indicates you *really* agree with me in that dyno curves help interpet the engine output metrics. You cannot compare two engines side by side without the drivetrain and say one engine is better than another.
I never said anything about "competition", you did. Unless the "you" is a generic "you".
Yes, generic.
Total vehicle engineering needs to be taken into consideration for how vehicles perform. We can compare engine to engine, I would say that is fair, however, I feel the total package is more important. Since the original discussion was just engine to engine, that's what I went with it, and transformed it into vehicle to vehicle for a more precise comparison
Well, let's just say that if the new Sebring still looked even remotely like its predecessor I'd be driving something else.
Today I wimped out and drove to work instead of braving the 15F degree temps again on my bicycle. As I cruised along enjoying the heated leather seats, auto climate control, a Dr. Pepper in the chilled cup holder, MyGIG tuned to Sirius Ch 14 (Classic Rock) cranking away a CCR tune, I said to myself, "It doesn't get much better than this."
Sorry for the interrupt - back to the dragstrip acceleration wars.
Ah yes, the fine art of bench racing. My '87 Yugo only weighs X pounds and has that Fiat engine, and since Italians are always faster than Japanese, it will be faster and more efficient on the street I am sure.
Or...what comes out the southern end of a northbound bull.
That doesn't mean it has no redeeming qualities. There is nothing wrong with that 2.4l Chrysler developed with its friends and if you like constantly copying your music all over with a USB 1.1 connection, then myGig is cute too.
Since none of this has anything to do with how well the car drives, it sounds like the Chrysler was the perfect car to you. You obviusly like toys - nothing wrong with that. Sort of like toppings on a sundae; I just don't like the ice cream chrysler sells - I'd rather have a plain vanilla Honda than a Chrysler sundae. It's all personal preference though - there's not a "wrong" here.
Compared to something like an Altima or a Fusion, the Chrysler is an appliance to go A to B while being entertained in the process with computer gadgets, etc. The Fusion and Altima entertain you without the gimmicks. They do it with the driving experience as a whole. And, it's not a "dragstrip" thing, ted. The Fusion is not a stoplight marvel; it's actually slower than basically all of its competition. It's a lot of fun to drive though. Those things can be exclusive of one another. A Camry XLE V6 is REALLY fast but not a driver's car. The Sebring is just neither.
I think you nailed it grad... every time I bring up how I enjoy a good handling car because it is fun for me to drive, others try to say a car can't be that engaging or "competitive" if it's not fast in 0-60 times or have amongst the highest HP numbers.
My Mazda is relatively fast compared to other midsize cars, but is nowhere near the fastest. It is, however, extremely fun to drive. I couldn't beat everyone on the road in a drag race, but then I don't want to either because that's not what I find fun. I just want a car that feels glued to the road when I drive it spiritedly while being comfortable for my passengers when I'm not pushing it. A "driver's car" is not necessarily the fastest car... but a car that changes directions quickly with more control than other cars.
Actually, I have the 3.5L version. And no USB to hassle with. I just load a CD and rip it straight to the HD and create multiple virtual jukebox albums. They say it can hold up to 1,600 songs. The Gracenotes database so far has taken care of automatically naming each stored album.
Having owned a Ford product before my latest purchase, I test drove a Fusion 3.0L AWD. I personally didn't think it was as much fun as the Sebring. I also sat in a Camry in the showroom and that's as far as I wanted to get to know it.
I'll admit that a Sebring is not REALLY fast but stoplight wars is not why I bought it. I find all of these 0-60 acceleration debates rather entertaining. Whenever I want to go REALLY fast I drive my other car pictured below.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b355/roadijeff/viper-5.jpg
So its like an iPod except its not portable and you can't take it with you?
Off topic, but I just had to comment since I also drive a midsize sedan, and have been biking to work lately. How far is your commute? How many times per week? What kind of bike are you using? How do your co-workers react? Sometimes, I feel like Steve Carrell in "40 Year Old Virgin" except I actually own a car and just choose to bike sometimes, for the enjoyment of it.
Bench racing is much safer stoplight racing, especially when the bull has been traversing the virtual bench.
My Saturn Aura XR has basically the equivalent of all of those features except the heated/cooled cup holders. It does have XM instead of Sirius. It also has heated leather seats, auto climate control. I believe loaded versions of most mid-size cars in 2008 have most if not all of these features. The Sebring is hardly unique.
My father-in-law had his CX-7 in to get new tires, and we put him in a loaner from Enterprise, since we were out of loaners at my Mazda store, and it was a Aura XR. I went for a ride in it with him, and I must say I was pleasantly surprised. The car had nice acceleration, quite ride, and the build quality seemed to be pretty darn good, compared to what we are accustomed to from Saturn. Competition surely does improve the breed.
I wouldn't say it's not portable - it certainly goes wherever the car goes.
My wife has an iPod Nano that I have absolutely no interest in. When I'm not in the car I never listen to music but I've never been much of a music person before this car anyway. I'm not sure if I'll renew the satellite subscription after my initial one-year free trial but it's been fun to tinker with for the first 4 months.
I wouldn't say it's not portable - it certainly goes wherever the car goes.
By that logic, built-in NAV systems are portable too! :P
Check your carspace mailbox. I had a long bicycling-related reply but I figured it was better to go email since these other guys seem to just want to race their iPods from stoplight to stoplight.
* Noted
Actually, there are very few similarities between a MyGIG multimedia infotainment system and an iPod. Correct me if I'm wrong but some of the following features might not be available on an iPod:
1. Load a CD and rip it directly to the HD
2. Play a DVD movie
3. GPS nav system with real-time traffic re-routing
4. AM/FM/Satellite radio
5. Seamless integration with Bluetooth compatible cell phones
6. UConnect hands-free voice control
Did I miss anything? www.chrysler.com/mygig
If anything, this certainly has been a refreshing change from the dragstrip acceleration debates.
I would concur. The iPod only provides audio and video to a given system.
1. Load a CD and rip it directly to the HD
It can certainly do that, that is what its made for. Rip music to the computer, upload it to the iPod, and then it is with you from that point on with no need to copy it 27,000 times. Then I have it in the car, when I'm jogging or cycling, at work, at home, at the grocery store...
2. Play a DVD movie
Same deal; even my Nano supports video and can not only connect to my car, but also my home stereo and television. Or, I can watch it directly on the iPod.
3. GPS nav system with real-time traffic re-routing
Okay, so the $170 iPod can't do navigation with real time traffic, but my $99 cell phone can, and it too works when cycling or on foot.
4. AM/FM/Satellite radio
Since I am sure you aren't bragging about the AM/FM radio, the only thing I can come up with is a service you want me to pay $10/mo for the privilege of listening to a DJ in some distant place play the same things I can listen to my local DJ playing for free? Other manufacturers are including "Hi Def" FM radios so its CD quality sound, just like satellite.
5. Seamless integration with Bluetooth compatible cell phones
6. UConnect hands-free voice control
I think I am having trouble coming up with vehicles that don't have a hand's free bluetooth option, you can even get it on a Focus now.
I guess I am just not that impressed with adding a hard drive to a 90s technology navigation system and 5 year old bluetooth system. Not that there is anything wrong with the technology, just not that impressive to me. I just can't get past the idea that there is no reason for a hard drive in the car.
Maybe if the car could download movies via the satellite and store them on the hard drive for the kids to watch on trips, that might be cool, but for music, I will stick with my portable beloved iPod.
Has anyone ever tried negative financing rates? The interest earned could help pay a small part of your monthly payments/bills.
Looks like car sales will be down from 2007 for 2008.
Most certainly. As in the example I gave the other day I had the auto climate control set on 75F, blowing out just the right amount of heat from changing places to keep me comfortable while the outside air was below freezing.
In my heated/cooled cupholder I had the cool mode on to keep my can of Dr. Pepper chilled down to 35F. The same cupholder can warm a beverage up to 140F degrees. It is not part of the cabin heating and cooling system.
It can certainly do that, that is what its made for. Rip music to the computer, upload it to the iPod, and then it is with you from that point on with no need to copy it 27,000 times. Then I have it in the car, when I'm jogging or cycling, at work, at home, at the grocery store...
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place but I can't seem to find where anyone can insert a CD into the iPod my wife has. The whole unit is less than 1/2 the size of a CD anyway.
And, unlike an iPod, I didn't have to first rip any music to a computer HD and then download it to something else to listen to the music. One rip directly to MyGIG and that's all that was needed. I didn't even have to do that if I just wanted to keep listening to it on the CD.
2. Play a DVD movie
Same deal; even my Nano supports video and can not only connect to my car, but also my home stereo and television. Or, I can watch it directly on the iPod.
Again, I'm having trouble locating where someone would insert a DVD into an iPod to watch a movie.
6. UConnect hands-free voice control
Also, I'm pretty sure that no iPod offers voice command control.
Anyhow, you're the one who initially said the MyGIG was basically an iPod that isn't portable. I was just pointing out how different they are.
And to the other person who replied to this, the military has a howitzer that is defined as being portable.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/singapore-unveils-new-airportable-semimobile- -155mm-pegasus-howitzer-01414/
Wouldn't it be easier if they would just make the car a wireless device so you could see it on your home network? That way you could copy music, movies, pics, etc directly to the hard drive in the car while it sits in the garage. I would definitely buy that option. It is pointless to me to have to copy songs to my iPod then again to the hard drive in my car. One or the other is fine, but not both IMO.
The point with iPod interfaces is that so many people already have them and already have their music loaded. This avoids having to maintain multiple copies of the music. It also lets you listen to downloaded music without having to burn a CD first.
Ford's Sync gives you voice control over your music player (not just iPods but Zune and others as well) and your cell phone with bluetooth features. And the software is upgradeable via a usb flash drive.
What I Purchased & Price Paid
One year ago I purchased a brand new 2007 Honda Accord LX Sedan with a 5-speed manual. Silver with a black interior, straight off of the local dealer's lot. The new 2008's were on the way, so I was able to fairly easily negotiate a price of $300 below invoice, or $17,825 (invoice was $18,125). MSRP was $20,125.
Why I Bought It
I looked at other vehicles, including sedans, which had the Accord beat in some areas. Other choices had more features for the dollar (Hyundia Sonata), handled better (Ford Fusion), could carry more (Mazda6 5-door), etc... but in my opinion the Accord was the option that did everything well, and the smooth engine and excellent manual transmission sealed the deal. The Mazda6 came in a very close second.
How It Drives
For me, the manual transmission really gives the Accord a good driving personality. The gearing is low for great acceleration, and closely spaced pedals are perfect for heel-and-toe downshifts. The ride is firm enough that you can feel the road, but not too harsh as to be uncomfortable. The engine is a masterpeice. This exact configuration was tested by Car and Driver as going 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, about average for the class but very good for a four-cylinder. They gave it high praise all around.
In my opinion the handling is above average. There is one section of road on my commute with a very sharp curve; the speed limit on the road is 35 mph, and a sign warns of the turn and recommends 25 mph. On the outside of the curve, the ditch and tree line is scarred from the fates of cars whose enthusiastic drivers tried to carry extra-legal speed but failed to negotiate through properly. I can take this curve at 45 mph without much tire noise and the car gives great feedback about how much grip is left. I don't see any need for increased handling, but when I replace the tires I have a feeling that a more sport-oriented tire will give less body roll and improved grip.
Other Experiences
The cabin is comfortable with four adults on board, the trunk is large and the rear seats fold flat, and I have been surprised at the amount of stuff I have been able to carry inside the vehicle including bicycles, misc. lumber and 10-foot peices of moulding, a Labrador Retreiver, and enough luggage for my wife to take a weekend trip (not all at once, of course). This flexibility is one of the primary reasons I chose a midsize sedan.
Maintenance and Operating Costs
The Accord has been very inexpensive to operate, averaging 29 mpg to date. The worst observed tank was 24.5, and the best observed tank was 35. Two oil and filter changes as recommended by the "maintenance minder" system (which monitors driving habits, other operating conditions, and accumulated engine revs) were $25 each at the local dealer, and the car has not required any additional service, scheduled or otherwise.
Residual Value
After one year and 13,500 miles, on average Edmunds TMV (and other pricing guides including the "Real World Trade In Values" forum) estimate the Accord is worth about $15,500 private party. This equates to 87% of the price I paid, and 77% of MSRP, or a first year depreciation of 13% and 23% respectively.
Conclusion
Any negatives? Well, it would have been nice to have iPod connectivity, which I fixed with an FM transmitter. Plus, the styling is nice but sometimes I wish it stood out more. Overall, at this time I'm still very pleased with the Accord. It has been very economical, it appears to have held its value very well, has had no major issues, has met all of my needs, and is fun to drive.
The EcoBoost engine, which is currently scheduled to debut in a performance version of the Fusion, could be the more fuel efficient alternative for Mustang in the long term. Depending on spec, the EcoBoost is capable of up to at least 415hp, and has the torque to match a regular V-8.
415 HP in a Fusion? I doubt it. But I think that motor makes something around 340 out of the box IIRC. Couple that with AWD and, well, you can do the math. :shades:
.......I still say though, that if there are people out there willing to pay hard-earned money for a Dodge Sebring, the market cant be all that bad.
Oh, I wasn't saying MyGig was basically a stagnant iPod, I was just saying an iPod has most of the features and functionality of MyGig and doesn't require storing the same information in a bunch of places. Beyond that, most other manufacturers support connectivity of the iPod (or in some cases, other MP3 players as well) where you can rip your music to your iPod in the comfort of your home (unless you just like sitting in the car) and then bring it with you.
Hard drives in cars for music have been around since VW did the music-keg in the 90s. Amazingly, they still haven't caught on that much...
I am glad the system meets your needs and you are enjoying your car, that is really what its all about.
Then you would still have to be copying your music again and again. With an iPod, you only have to do it once and its with you from then on.
It is pointless to me to have to copy songs to my iPod then again to the hard drive in my car. One or the other is fine, but not both IMO.
Yeah most systems allow you to access and charge your iPod in the vehicle, I think its ridiculous to have to keep copying your files from one place to another. Starting with the system in the BMW, you just access your files directly on the iPod, with no copying of songs or files.
It is basic and practical, but I wouldn't call my particular Accord "appliance-like." I certainly don't feel the same way about the car as I do my appliances, and that is what is important. If it did not have such a great engine and transmission, that would be a different story. Besides, even though we're not discussing the M5, the Evo, or the CTS-V in this forum, I'd bet most people here don't feel their sedans are mere appliances.
Allow me to quote Car and Driver from the "Quickest Cars of 2007: Under $20,000" article, on the 2007 Accord LX 5-speed: "In the last quarter-century, Accord has qualified for 10Best honors in all but four years... relentlessly agile and fluid... steering is light but insistently transmits little e-mails informing of road texture and available grip... i-VTEC four delivers right-now throttle response and squirts to its redline like a spaniel fetching a mallard... what we’d most like to drive."
backy: "Thanks for the detailed review! Have you driven the 2008 Accord, and if so how do you think it compares to your car?"
I have not driven the new 2008 yet, though I did crawl around a sedan during my last oil change. It is a big car! It has some neat features, but I don't regret not waiting for the new model. Now that new coupe on the other hand, that is quite a car...
dave8697: "The recent comparo between the new Malibu, new accord, and Camry, all with 4 cyl automatics had the Malibu at 9.5 secs, the Accord at 9.3 secs and the Camry fastest at 9 or 9.1 secs for 0-60. Does the manual make that much difference or is the '08 that much slower or is the '07 C&D car modified?"
Yes, Yes, and No. First, manuals do make a big difference because more power is put to the ground, and manuals are usually geared lower than automatics meaning the engine can rev up faster and stay there after upshifts. Second, yes the new Accord is slower because with the redesign it became larger and heavier. Finally, no Car and Driver did not modify the car, they are just skilled at using just the right amount of wheelspin at launch to get the fastest acceleration times.
Yes, but this time your doing a copy and paste from one drive on your home network to another and not from the CD to the drive, then to another device. This method I suggested would be 100 times faster. Give or take.
Also, since you've already ripped the CD to put it on your iPod you already have the file ready to copy to your vehicle's hard drive. From what I gather, the MyGIG makes you stick the CD in the head unit to get the songs onto the hard drive which creates extra work. I'm still with the others in thinking this thing is of no benefit. I'm not saying people shouldn't buy it though. It's just not something I see myself ever needing. Especially since a CD-R can hold roughly 150 mp3s assuming each one is 5 MB in size. My Explorer and Mustang both play MP3 CDs and both have a 6 disc CD changer. That means I can put nearly 4 GB of MP3s in my head unit. That's plenty for me. Obviously a quick iPod connection expands that capacity and probably costs less even with the cost of the iPod factored in.
No MP3 inputs, no MP3 CD capability, and no way to swap out the head unit, since it's integrated with the climate control. If it had a traditional separate radio, I'd swap that thing out in a heartbeat for something that plays MP3s and can receive HD radio.
Copying songs to yet another device? Eh, it's no big deal to me, since in our family we've got 5 mp3 players among us (not an IPOD in the lot), so I've gotten used to syncing up multiple devices. With today's software, it's simple.
Just like built in Nav units or bluetooth phones, having a built-in hard drive means that you don't need to have another device plugged into the cigarette lighter that you've got to find a place for so it doesn't fall onto the floor. To some folks, that's a plus. To others it doesn't matter.
1. Honda Accord EX - 213
2. Nissan Altima 2.5S - 208
3. Chevy Malibu LT - 201
4. Hyundai Sonata LTD - 198
5. Toyota Camry LE - 193
6. Ford Fusion SEL - 187
7. Dodge Avenger SXT - 169
Issues should be out within the next week or so. Comments?
From what I've heard, the Malibu only beat the Accord in two aspects, as tested price and trunk space. I wonder if the Malibu 2LT, which includes many features that aren't even avaiable on the Accord EX (not the EX-L) for a lower or similar pricing.
As I figured the Camry and the Chrsyler/Dodge product would fair pretty low. It's pretty much similar to the last comparison test of I4 models that C&R did last year, except that GM's product and the Korean product switched places probablloy because the Malibu is avialble in I4 form verses last year's Aura which had the V6 standard and the Fusion was not included.
C&R's Rankings Last year
Accord
Altima
Optima
Aura
Camry
Sebring
Consumers and Reporting magazine.
Umm, I think I'm even more confused now! Is there a magazine actually called "Consumers and Reporting" or are you trying to say "Consumer Reports" magazine?
I have no doubt that people like the myGIG and want it. I too want things that people think are crazy. I just don't see it as being something huge numbers of people would want. Just IMO.
So your '06 Accord can't play MP3 CDs? That's pretty pathetic on Honda's part if that's the case. Ford's basic CD players and changers have been playing MP3 CDs for 3-4+ years now. Seems like Honda took the form over fuction approach to their last gen audio systems because they are at least better looking than Ford's systems IMO.